I would argue that it is more important to blow the whistle at the local level where we spend most of our lives. Our next guest is the perfect example of flowing with so in relative obscurity where the authorities treat themselves into thinking that they can get away with clamping down untruths. Tellers. Im john kerry. Ok. Welcome to the whistle blowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 a georgina held for hall, joining the case royal navy upon graduation from school and worked in Human Resources before leaving to raise a family. She later returned to spend 3 years in Financial Services before moving to the department of works and pensions, where she was, the leadership and Performance Management specialist. She became the 1st internal Human Resources leadership and Development Consultant there working for the chief of staff in 2008. She went into the non Profit Sector as the chief executive officer of a charity in early june, 2014. She was surprised at her home when a police van drove up while she was in her kitchen preparing lunch, 7 armed officers wearing stabbed vests and carrying guns, forced their way into her cottage and arrested her. She was charged with handling stolen documents and was taken to a Police Station for questioning. What was the catalyst for this action . Georgina had exposed bullying and systematic abuse that her son school, which was one of the countrys most famous military schools. She and her husband had sent their 11 year old son to the duke of Yorks Royal Military School because it claimed to instill military values and its students. Instead, it was a place of punishment, abuse, and bullying beyond the boundaries of decency. And more was the blowing was to follow that was in the Charity Sector in the n, georgina how for the whole one, her various legal cases. But that has not stopped the struggle. Its the life of a whistle blower. Even one whose work might be for the most part under the radar. Georgina, how for hall . Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining us. Absolute pleasure. John is loved it to me. Id like to start at the beginning. You were a wife and a mother going about your business, like any normal person, you were working and taking care of your family and then one day you were in your kitchen making lunch and your home was rated by the authorities. Tell us about that. Why did that happen, and what was your reaction . And well, its all tossed with much bigger story. Ive been given some information that i provided to, to laurie forest when in the u. K. And they gave it back to me and told me to look after it. And that information was all about child abuse in the school. And i didnt touch the expect to have my house rated by 7 Police Officers were in the riot gear. They were the helmets. I suppose us to like, perhaps they should have taken off the issues as well, but they were concerned. The tie has been handling the stone and dont humans, the die has been inappropriate with people state, so were not so fight to like try to do is spin into dimitry and pass it to the people who have the steps that she powers or 13 will want to do something to stop the abuse of children. And that just really lets me into this journey is just, its about just just isnt it . And they picked the wrong movement on the wrong day. I didnt, i didnt know what happened, but i just, so im not putting up with this. And the Police Officers concerned i, i said at the time in the same kind of time im talking to you. This is a korea defining moment for you guys. And it was, i ended up sitting, facing them there. And just as henry herrings, im seeing how, i think fundamentally days some people have been missed directed, but theyre gonna pay for it for the hold of the rest of their career and their lives. Probably in the meantime, none of the people involved in abusing children and covering it up. None of them, its appropriate help to attempt. Its been hushed up. People have been swept away. The x rays have probably been to child in some cases. This is mitchell receipt is, has left to no impact. But im told that the Police Investigation is ongoing. I dont suppose this much alacrity behind it is still a problem across most countries that these are just children. Everythings historical after its happened. And weve got biggest things to do with the evidence will be easier to obtain is some shape. And you can ignore force, but you know, how difficult the, you know, how high the bar is, how you have to get witness to be able to speaking on children. In a tory see not listen to. So i suppose for me, this whole issue around with the blowing is about access to justice and about ensuring that no matter who you are, how old you are, where you live, what your background is. You are not outside of that system that is open to everybody and that theyre repeat that its like, i suppose to ensure that you are listen to. And if youre speaking of, i asked about other people that you will listen to. All of the everybody is protected, we need a safety that for every citizen, not just in the cape around the world. How long did this drag out . Presumably, the authorities try to intimidate you by charging you with stealing some sort of documents. What was that all about . And how is it finally resolved . You know, lots of time is going by. This will happen some in 20, in june 2014 fresh. Just to just stay for the 6th of june, 2014. So you can see that its only 10 years. Its 9 years ago. Um and i tend to try and focus on the upside of it, but the action was taken that the particular school this relates to the, to give you a room military school in kent. Im sure its probably one of the safest schools on in the world now. But it took a parent because the people who, who were working in the school, who had tried refreshed aside. But many of them didnt try because they were too afraid of what was happened to them. I dont think hun brave role than anybody else to be quite honest with you. Just called me perhaps. As a time when i felt, i suppose instanced enough to want to do something about it. And so as for my journey yet its still, its still going on really because then we will live with the legacies before this happened. But what i would say is this really made me recognize that most pizza, good a to most people are not all full of many people get caught up in these conspiracies and cover ups and so on. No. Because they set out to do it, but they just, we think its jumped into a system. And im sure when you think about your experience, john, that most of the people around you probably didnt think she was doing the wrong thing. But they might have been in a different way. Im sure lots of people look at me and say you could have done a different way, which is why now, when i saw advising people, i helped them to avoid some of the bad traps that are out there and keep themselves safe. Georgina, after your whistle blowing experience, you went on to found the group whistle blowers, u. K. Tell us about whistle blowers, u k. And the work that youre doing there. What do you focus on . Well, it was founded by groups of peaceful grades because some where was the blows up as a piece of what twist was supplies and then senior positions. And it was about helping to facilitate access to justice. Im wondering if hes a good public press to just dont people going know and get digging themselves into holes and getting themselves into trouble. Um, it was all about creating a community when nobody would have to walk this, letting me road alone. Because we do say on the website, you know that in your notes, im sure we, we just dont have enough switches to help everybody. But we do try and its in, in our organizations ideas. Were around identifying the commonality. Developing a consensus about legislation needs to the site to create the safe and a level Playing Field for everybody who speaks up. And we do the image tens of perhaps collections, you know, didnt just wake up when, when it goes, thats what were going to do. Thats what it looked like. It should have been develop, take repaired of time, a more more people joined us and you know, i would train now is go hundreds of people on it and some get off and some get back on again, some, some change direction altogether but some dimensions setting those principles that we, we want to help provide practical supports help and information for whats the blow is. And to do that, weve got a free, confidential reporting platform. So then even have to speak to anyone if they just want to test the waters. Weve got a great carter of dedicated caseworkers to understand the sixes and also have developed real counseling skills that give people that reassurance. It came back to. They didnt feel the 9 that they feel listen to the still understood. And we take to the paste. They want to get to the list of low wants to go out and we dont judge because everyone makes mistakes. No, every list of glory is a good test and lets face it, you know, good people do bad things about people take good things and some, you know, some just all mixed up in both. But we have developed the most amazing team as lloyd is that by image. So he was in cool representing a really complex case profile. Know, and its taking him months supported by one of our junior trainees viruses. All of this is what we built, the community that respect. Some responds to each other. No time we didnt charge. Im sure youve heard about it and the criticisms, but we didnt touch most people. We just ask people to come to the if they come because if we dont, we dont have the fund is we dont have regular funding. The government dont give us money. We all the only not for profit organization. We dont charity. So we, we struggle for funding and we do the best that we can with what we thoughts. But we try to prepare with suppliers and, and we try to work with people to keep them, mentally disappearing, mostly strong, unable to go through. The process that can take me is and change is how people think and often change his lives. But we also try and work with the families as well, keeping everybody together, keeping the support network in place. And being part of it i took about was the basic has assembly. The said people come on, they come off, they get on the golf. But were always the us and we remember the pizza at times behaves in different ways because they distressed. And there was this and you know, when you didnt know what your future is having had to or planned out. This is a massive shops of people, back to the social solicitation case, really about support information and help and being a family. Weve got and im going to give him a good shouts out. So i want you to interview him the amazing night till the 10 and hes just a fabulous guy. And hes a whistle blower himself and hes been absolutely to hell and back. But hes now leading up here to pay support and designing a really for the team process and, and a program that will give always to blow. Isnt anybody else who wants it even more support and confidence in that theyll just speaching out within a group. But to their, to their employer or to an Organization Building takes ability building a culture that we want to see from the inside out. Were trying to move the, what we want other people to take. And we dont just took the tools, it makes sense to me, get it wrong, hands with a f, as you know, updating and trying to improve things, listening to a feedback. And on top of science, youve asked me what we do. And i was just giving me a, youve given me the ability to look over the things i love talking about. So we have the way we run is then sweet wrong conferences. We have month twice, monthly meetings, and we talk about topical things. We get people writing blogs, we get people involved in developing events because this isnt about me. Im really just the math piece for it. But its about all of these people, them, what date, the richness of their experience and how thats driving the changes. And as a result of our casualty is, you know, im also the director of strategy and policy to the old policy problem and frequent whistle blowing. Now theres a huge team of us now working around the phase, calling ontario. But we have written were developed richardson to build a trust is on, and its going through a problem and reprice. Thats called the protection of with the blank bill. Its going to transform the way we think about whistle blowing. And on top of that, weve now started to build a global team and globally alliance of people who are equally concerns. They might be in cios, they might be list as low as they might be. You know, the professionals in Different Countries because we have this on vision and another one of our colleagues iris to not just a very in greece, came up with this brilliant tongue a global treaty. But why not . So were trying to develop what that will look like new site, as many people as possible to get involved and put their voice into this. Georgina, thanks for being with us. Stay with us. Were speaking with british whistleblower georgina how ford hall. After the break, were going to talk about her whistle blowing in the Charity Sector in the u. K. And the group she founded to helped countless other whistle blowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the im a film director, ive written many scripts during my career, but i got really curious, couldnt Neural Networks collaborate with a human to make a documentary film . Springer set up for much. Im not sure about this. The volume of cher comergence, this, your motion shows was more lets do this. Well. No, but i would feel what i squeezed the internet and i still feel this. Like, do you feel i used to play scramble with the property about the gloss . Finally, probably for you, really the importance of literacy, to sort of by the way, we havent introduced ourselves. I have the strangest feeling. Weve met somewhere before. The the, the welcome back to the whistle blowers. Im john kerry onto were speaking with british whistleblower georgina how ford hall. She has blown the whistle against wrong doing multiple times 1st with regard to bullying in her sons military school and next in a Non Profit Charity georgina. Thanks again for being with us. Its great, im really excited. Almost no whistle blowers sets out to be a whistle blower. Most of us are professionals who are just going about our normal lives. But then you see evidence of waste, fraud abuse or illegality. And you feel compelled to Say Something in the end. Many of us either walk away from our careers and focus on whistle blowing, or were thrown into the life of a whistleblower. Youve embraced whistle blowing and you have helped countless other whistle blowers who have followed you. Tell us about that. Well, im really, again, im really can to i as, as a full right. Tell professional, im obsessed with evaluation and you know, setting something out and what do we do . So we have, we have a board of directors, we have a associate membership. I wish i looked up the numbers try to achieve it over a 100 and we rely on those people to give us all feedback. But in terms of so the more easy, measurable. So we receive over 3000. 00 emails and telephone calls every year. We say we have at least on average, and again ill go to st. J for, for him doing all the in the back room stuff. And we get on average 3 inquiries a week that comes through the r n pays on them parliament. All that demonstrates to people trust is we get, we get referrals from a test, which is one of the government bodies that do all patrician. We get recommendations for another little firms. We get recommendations from around the world just before us b. I was speaking to you today. I was doing an interview for the Italian Government with a time slice a. And i think that what weve done is weve said roses in the esl stage. Perfect. Lets keep moving with it because its too easy. Stuck in something and say, this is what were going to do and were just going to do that. But when we recognize it is not working or the landscape is shifted, weve been out trial and weve decided to respond to it and not criticize it. The take forward, the best idea is that the best time, and that was, i think, well, its kind of cool to the table family. It changes. People want to be there and theyll say, well, would it be done in 5 years . I suppose we did a lot more than people have done in 15 or 20 or even said to use in 10 going from looking at legislation we had demonstrating why it doesnt look. Im proposing something it does. Because if you gift wrap it, its easy for politicians, they built millions of other things that doing make it easy, make it something they can understand and demonstrate how its going to benefit of the citizens. I think thats been the strength of what were doing. We dont criticize, we always look for solution, take that and then and discuss it. I know that in your role as the founder of whistle blowers, u. K, that you regularly advised business is members of parliament and regulatory bodies on whistle blowing legislation. Ive done the same thing through the Excellent Organization blueprint for free speech, which is based in australia. Its been my experience that many countries are very desirous of draft whistleblower protection legislation. But then it becomes very hard to actually get that legislation passed into law. Tell me about your own experience with legislation. Whats the reception been like in the u. K. We are very creative about the things that we do and weve, weve, weve puts in place things like 10 plates to make things easier and we all going to loan tonight. Its very as a, as a to our handbook. But again, that will be free to everybody, to, to give them an idea of how so we supply not just in the paper, globally low, we have put in a section for how the lower the name it works in the u. K. 3, show the people them full into all of those bad traps, you know, running out of time using the wrong language. Dont taking the right books. Its, its those fundamental basics. Its really hard to do when youre not an expert in the area. Jewels, theyve probably very stressed and done to time constraints. So we, we look at the touch, think of all the words and ive lost my words, which is not like me we, we look at. Yeah, quite so i know youre locked in for a good reason that so we just keep getting people to maps the chronology apps, we get them to be clear. We support them in that process and provide the critical friendship. And then we try and do something beyond that, which is a psychological support and all of our people it is a trained and it will, they already have it naturally in the bucket bags really. Bu