Final analysis they have an invoice dated august 5th to note, and decide whats best for the rest. And as order and peace preserving as this positioning wishes to appearance is bound to live, to conflict, or to discuss that im now joined from canada by victor. Talk care for teachers to come towards the university of edmonton. Victor is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. Thank you for the invitation. I saw nice pleasure to be in this program. Make sure you have a very interesting take on the current tensions between russia and the west, which ultimately comes down to the sides. Deep seated perception of themselves and the nature of reality, which you summarize as the u. S. As in systems on being the 1st among equals and rushes claim on being and they quote, among 1st, do you think such a class will self images could be results this fully . Well i as i cool ridge, but it can be, but of course it is problematic given the, the how deep this cultural difference is given how deep with the psychological difference is ultimately in terms of the collective psychology, off of the leadership of the 2 sides. Right. Uh indians. Uh this, this is the idea of came to me appropriate as a result of, uh my uh, key chain for a number of years at, uh, uh, 2 religious institutions, ultimate, the rates. Uh, its a small universe this year in edmonton, both of which i protest and foundations as the beginning. Uh and uh, this, uh, this is something that may, may make me, made me look, look into, into, uh, these are really just the origins of, uh, political culture of the west end of the United States of america in particular. And then of course, my older research as a historian had to do with the cultural history of the policy uh, on the russian side. Right. And specifically the goal. So heres to go to the russian, all the wars. Uh, so was there a, be that a little of attention to the now, once again, the, the cultural practices of jamal example diplomacy is the perception. So the representation, we will definitely can discuss all of those differences. And i think your main point is that both russia and america are exceptionally distinct in how they evolve historically on the economically and socially im before we go into that i, i wonder if you can see any similarity in how these 2 big nations to break powers go about manifesting themselves into a world as well. You see story, etc. Busy by the whole, those who look for differences for the key areas useful, unique qualities of historical entity is right the opposite as of control and each other. It is probably the task of the Political Science as to the social logistics to, to focus on the send addresses. On the universal, reproducible trans right. Uh, but once again i was about. Busy to re emphasize this, this, this, this differences. And yes, you know, as much as the way of periods when the 2 sides treated each other on more or less equal terms. My arguments would be that these were rather exceptional in the, in the long history of their relations. Let me see something thats more of the exception to exceptional because its 1st and foremost associated with the american exceptionalism. Maam, youre arguing that the United States is exceptional in 2 major ways. Its jo graphy or rather geography granted security and being buffering by 2 oceans. And 2 wicker and neighbors is exceptional ability to strike with impunity without the steering. I mean retribution of which essentially allow the americans to wage war is over the last couple of decades and perhaps even longer. Now, do you think russia is exceptional enough as an adversary to and my palm is intended to provide an exception to the typical ways of american exceptionalism . Well, i would say that its exceptional and his desire, historically, his desire to be equal along the 1st, which was the prospect of its long efforts to join the european concert and the rpm balance of power of the European Club of great powers. And also the tags that he was part of that club for about a century and a house or perhaps 2 centuries. And then its exception. That is, is also a reflection of the fact that hes pretty much the only remaining great power of this kind are now in your up or, or, and desk even using brother world. Right. As it is a, is a tragedy. One of the sale of russia is thats this club of european great powers of which you want it to be part of support such a long time. Hes no longer there. Why dont interesting observation youre making that russia is perhaps the only, as you said, power that sort of appears through this perception of. 8 being impervious on the part of the americans, and if we hear, if you listen to them or the speech of american, the policy makers, they say that, you know, theyre still the strongest, the nation in the world that nothing threatens them. But do you think the americans in the field as secure and now as they profess it to be it, as well as certainly not, i mean one, hist, august stands that until the end of the 2nd world war, right . The was no feasible prospect of a major attack on the continental tag of the United States. Right. And in that sense, as the 1st the center of the house of American History passed in the exception of the 6 your conditions, right . So that explains so much in the transformation of the United States of america, enter s and major power of a global power of power. That was actually a seberio, right. And its in its capacity is to any of the european great powers of the previous period, right . And then of course, comes the of the cold war, which as i would argue for a very long time, was still in a symmetrical confrontation given steel is a great discrepancy. The in the resources of the, to the size as well as in the level of security that they enjoy. But still, i would say that the most significant achievement is it with of this over to you. And yet it was still a close that gap in terms of the, again, the relative security that the 2 sides enjoy. And in that sense, of course, uh, i would say that the soviet unions compromised show was saves and better than security uh to the point of leading a lasting impression on of their, again, the approach to Foreign Policy on their own collective psychology. All the perception of russia even today, but, you know, makes our, ive spoken to many are storing slightly, im many of them point out that during the cold war, i mean, one distinct feature of the cold war was decided that both the United States and russia engaged in a proxy counseling day, maam, a, a for that to intervene directly in the neighborhood which are the only exception of the cuban missile crisis. But it was also sparked by, you know, the trick case case and a male dom arguing that the United States move to change that approach recently by pushing ever closer to russian borders and by militarize and ukraine. You agree with this piece is one day thing prompt and this change of tactics on the american side, the, you know, essentially picking up a bottle with, with russian directly almost directly through ukraine. Oh yeah, so, but uh, 1st of all i was actually question of the, the magnitude of that change height because as you kind of mentioned to the goal more or less above all, it conflicts codes, right . But as a proxy wars, the gym, which is of the bowers, is where taking place in africa, south east asia, other places. Right . But we should never turned into the actual war. And i think this is part of the world of trends that we see since the 2nd world war in terms of this transition and they agree 0. Busy no, no peace more, right . Uh, and that is a clear distinction, but a decent rule that was once again, the characteristics of me, your appeal system of international relations, simply aidens in might in the century. Right . Its, its, its disappearing gradually. Right . And we are again, in this, increasingly in the, these grades on what, what makes the kind of config. Different, of course, uses geography. Right. Its no longer go live, its no longer get now its no longer q, but it is in india grade. Right . Uh, and this is something that makes this conflict uh different uh, including in terms of how real im free are the 2 sides to disengage right now. All weve discussed before in this self assurance aptitude that the United States historically had about it security. I think russell couldnt have been more different. You argue in your article that russian from never been criminal is by an abiding sense of security quite on the country has been chronically and secure. Oh, has it shaped um its own um, national and political psychology. Oh, well i think that in the years of the cold war thats ultimately resulted in thats rather solid, but i would say approach of the solvent Ministry Strategist says that consistent in challenging the security of the opponent rather than trying to secure and sold absolute security, which i think is, is absolutely unattainable. Hes an illusion. Ultimate, you see. And anyone the who is the only swat for rush or the soviet union or the thing its on attainable for the United States as well. I think that ultimately its on the team to buffalo for, for any, any power in todays world. And the reason for that is well known to any specialist on strategy. Its much cheaper, it technically easier to deny, secure, usually that pulled them to uh, secure, uh, absolute uh, you know, uh, comfort for your folks for you, for yourself as the way right to, to make sure that the reason. Busy all possible attack on your taxes, right . And thats all to be something that left in the context of the cold war. 2, thats a famous or in famous adultery and abuse you to assure destruction whereby the security of the 2 sides was kind of partially a jeep through some, some kind of equity librium of tara, im right. Your speaking thats also an attempt on the part of russian to take that concept of the balance of power the that is uh, on which the european concert was promised further or brought broader and applied to the americans as well. Why do you think the americans played along with it for some time and now seem to be refusing to do so . Yes, yes. So, you know, this as 1 may say, thats a mad or mutual destruction was a kind of a recreational reproduction of, of the principles and approaches to Foreign Policy that codes arise the european concert. And in that sense, you know, as much as russia and the soviet union, were trying to continue that approach and international relations. They have success, but its important to man because of this, this concept. And so the, the overall, um, the interaction between the United States and the soviet union in, in terms of data and in terms of the, you know, they said he obviously invitation talks of antibodies taking his style 3 to of the, already like, and some of these then was, i would argue or other exceptional periods, right . Austerity, you use the complex of the cold war from which ultimately the space of the, you know, diverged or a bar to it, but by the late 19 seventies. Right . So i would once again emphasize the exceptionality of this parity based approach. I enter the name of security. And that polls ultimately means that the rational, any other power has to make extra effort to do, you know, bring it about without speaking about exceptions. There is absolutely no exception to the rule that we have take a break in the middle of our conversation, so they tend to rebuild it back in just a few moments. The take a fresh look around is a life kaleidoscopic, isnt just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. Fixtures, design to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen for you, fractured images, present it is, but can you see through their illusion going underground . Can the welcome back to ones a par smith and fixed our talk case with teachers to ask him Coordinator University of ive mentioned now victor, uh you have another fascinating um view onto this conflict. Uh which i havent seen many specialist voice um, essentially its an argument that this evolution of the american self perception as a sort of the representation of, of god on this one of has been in fact a combination of not only geography but also its, its a religious thinking and particularly be the influence of the calvinist ideas of dividing people into and perhaps nations as well into the elect was im the uh, what was the trend for the rep rather be yes. Do you see playing out than the current politics as well . Oh, well, you know, in the general sense, yes, uh, well, 1st of all, let me save that. Of course, United States is the only country who has political any sort of themselves along those terms. And indeed, lumpkin 5 seamless themes in the history of britain, the from so russia, right . But when you look, for example, as the russian version of this nation, especially in special relation to god, right, that we find the bubble, the contrast of 70 and. Busy truly right, it definitely bears of the influence of the bees and sign a political culture in which exceptionality was confirmed as well by exceptionally great challenges, hardships, suffering, so that the nation went through because of course got lost. The, you know, got, makes up for those for us, but make sure i have the, i may be wrong here, but i think at least in the, in the russian conception of this idea that it does not presume that, you know, this exceptionality denies everybody else. The exceptionality, there is no sort of aspiration to be uh, you know, the only arbiter all 5 of the world affairs. Yeah. Well thats because in addition to heading, thats kind of busy on time legacy. Once again that we wait, we could see in the southern century, irrational was of the same time joe graphically objectively at the referral power of the restoral nation, which very early on on the level of its political leads recognized. Its very fair old situation and began to make efforts to overcome it. Right. So as a result of these re, please, exception is this really, really just president ial, is the game diluted with a very healthy attitudes of disciples of europe and all the more advanced technology, clear advanced nations. Actually i think it was also tested by reality back. And because he make an argument that the every major european power also aspire to be a head john, but its in the morning. Uh, emissions have o o. Weve gotten some push back from the neighbors. Thats just a, you know, essentially a benefit uh, sort of say, oh, so really in a european environment. Absolutely. Well, that was the case of spain, the suffered major defeating the something especially that was the case of frogs this up with a number of defeats of 8 and said already 9 can central is a 40 and being a major was right. And that was even the case of great britain, right . Thats one of the global power for a long time. But then, of course, can the multiple to the conclusion of the 2nd world here was very dramatic, couldnt kind of declassified and termed, into a medium sized country, right . So in europe, young nations ultimately experienced that transformation with a, with a exception. That is, was kind of defeats as by the car. Reality is right, or at least confronted with them in this, you know, very significant waste. And you know, the other states a more or less, more or less the only exception to the general tendency. And then of course, has to deal with the fact that the jet radical situation of the United States as far as that of an island, that is the size of the continents. Right. And thats something thats uh makes them so secure. I wonder if it also manifest themselves domestically because theres no look at the all day and we send it president ial campaigns. Youll always get some variation of the shell. Every clinton was deplorable as common. You know, i think donald trump talk about talked about humans. Campbell asked by the and also it made some disparaging remarks about a sizable part of the population. Do you think this sort of the division of the people of nations in should be locked and the rep from res also manufacture itself and domestic with perhaps in the current fuller ization in the United States. Oh, this us yes. Certainly liberal progressive in can be seen as yet another kind of secular manifestation off off off of that kind of approach, right . Because we have to understand that it is fewer pre stein for those religious consciousness of radical calvinists was present the bubble in the 17th century. In the time of the creation of what they said you can call in his, but it seems that it has become secularized for sure. Already, by the time of the american born independence, we can see significant secularization of that, of that, of the trends. The term since are kind of tied eulogy all success, right. The, the seems to be kind of confirmed by the actual developments of, again, as a reflection above all of the exceptionally comfortable geographical situation of the bible. Now, what can i think . I understand why the americans wouldnt be so infatuated with that on orange and math, but uh, i think many countries a password a similar miss. But again, claiming that the, your own mist supersedes all others. Is the ultimately as well wishing is it may appear . Isnt that ultimately an attempt to deny . Oh, are they all other nations to manifest their own destiny . Because i mean, in personal psychology we accept that each one of us is unique. Im have us, hes or her own unique way, but the, essentially what the american political doctrine try it tries to put forth. Is that no, we know the right way for everybody else. Well, others . Yes, yes, of course. I mean, one of the qualities that distinguishes human beings is the ability to recognize nearly other sites, just the same human beings as, as yourself. Right . And you know, that sense if we apply of these psychological categories to the level of political leads of different countries. Again, the exceptional Geographical Association of United States as the exceptionally positive economic and demographic and social development of these country. A for the, you know, old and i can send, theres a century thats not a, a made a difficult wed say for the american leaders to recheck. Advise, you know, the leaders of all the countries that, that equals as well. Right . Because a once again of the situation has been concerned with the circumstances in wage of europe. Young leaders in particular, historically where acting west sol, so manifested different from those. So from the United States, now i dont know if you would agree with that, but i think