children live in poverty. all the small coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, let's go straight to the case of the world's most famous publisher. joining me now from switzerland at this pivotal moment is the un repertoire and torture niels meltzer, whose evidence has been used in julian sanchez defense. thank you so much, niels for coming back on you have been told by british politicians, i understand not to interfere with our court system in this specific case. we now know that the joe biden administration, the crown prosecution lawyer here, proxy lawyer here had james lewis. qsc says julian assange, his health is fine. he can be extradited to face a possible 175 years in, in the united states, in jail. as you are traveling your back on the show i'm you know, obviously you would expect to say that right. ember, appealing be the 1st instance. decisions are controlled, you know, based on extensive medical evidence that by the way, corresponds exactly to the findings that you know, we can to re on medical leave as a de julian asunder bel, martian 9th of may 2019. he's in no position to be expedited to a prison system. you know, as the one in the us. and, you know, i just like to take a step back here. the actual discussion is that he should not even be in prison. why? why is he being, you know, and neither in the 1st place, given that he's not committed any crime was, you know, this is what is better. uh, better as you know, he's a flight risk because he sought to political asylum and gained it in london. and all his journalism, as it were, does not protect him from the u. s. espionage act. that's what judgment as a rates are said. that's why it's only as help. that's a consideration. i'm really glad you mentioned that because that's the scandal in this case. if you look at that 1st instance judgement, that was, that's not a mixture. it for the julian sanji, you know, campbell, for during the suns himself or for press freedom and for that matter, it is a truck because in a little preceding prejudicial, always goes through 2 or 3 incidents by not extra riding him. in the 1st madison court level, what that did legally speaking is that he puts the us in the position to appeal. otherwise, have you been extradited? then julia sans would have appealed and he would have brought all those questions of press freedom of political offence. political motivation in that prosecution, the attentive fascination and kidnapping, all those things he would have brought to the high court, very f judges, which much stronger independence and expertise. but it was quite smart by the u. s . and the u. k. to, to have it arranged the other one, so they don't extradite him. in the 1st instance, they basically confirmed a whole narrative about yes, you're not actually sessions of everything and set the precedent criminalizing basic the journalist for that matter, what they will only bring those questions to the appeals court that they want to consider. but just to the us and the state of and their prison conditions. and now mind you, their present conditions is absolutely in their control. they can make diplomatic guarantees at any stage of to any extent, who neutralize those concerns. they can offer medical services, they can offer no guarantees when they got to the conditions of retention, which makes it very difficult from a high court now to refuse, extra she, yes, james, her scuse, seem to be saying, we have a psychiatric asylum. we can throw julian sans into if he has mental problems once, extradited in, given what you just said. is it sensible for wiki leaks, lawyer edwards, gerald, you see to me in a way, excepting the criminalization of journalism and appealing to the judges. all right, and burnett that look, he shouldn't be extradited because of that early a judgement. and this is what it is. you, you know, the global south, you know, cases of torture all around the world. isn't it more normal for a defense barrister to be claiming this court isn't even something that you me, should we respected you already criminalize journalism, your judicial system? we shouldn't accept anything from this court. well, the question is that the moral stands for the question, and how much is that gonna help julian? the sounds and the legal proceedings? and yes, it is a scandal. but you know, the espionage acting, the u. s. in itself is campbell, the official secrets act in the u. k. in itself is a scandal because both of them criminalized the disclosure of secret information irrespective of public interest. the high court can change that. they can certainly they can certainly, you know, be reasonable and apply the law to the the medical states that you know junior passengers and they know exactly what the prison conditions are like in the us. as far as i know, the defense team has also crossed the peel. it's just at the cross appeal, which then brings all those other questions before. but that obviously will only be dealt with if the u. s. is successful in it's so before we get to that stage, just to be clear as things stand right now in london, if you were about to suddenly, i dunno. and show me a tv set of reuters journalists being gun down by helicopter gunship for both of us could be tortured. we could be subject to a u. s. secretary of state, claiming that we were a non state or sale actors, worthy of assassination on the streets of london. that, that precedent is all already been said and could be extradited. that that's all fine. is just the suicide risk. well, you know, think about the murder of george floyd which was recorded on video and only because of that video check that clip. we had the evidence that george floyd was actually murdered and there was no, you know, there was not a medical crisis. there was not a case of self defense or something. it was just no justification and put it back. a public protests against santa bullies police brutality which, you know, the authority not be able to avoid prosecuting those official. unfortunately, in the case of collateral murder, there are simply has been a completely different narrative of the u. s. going out parents and you know, fighting terrorism and so on. and it's very, very difficult for an average citizen who doesn't have privileged access to, you know, what actually happens behind the curtains of, of, of policy making. they actually believe that narrative, very difficult for a late lay people to actually understand that full picture. i believe what the mainstream process is calendar. you know, when you started your special united nations investigation into the case of judy and assange. you were, you weren't alone there, lots of supporters of judy and sons, but there weren't so many groups to day. every major human rights and free speech organization in the world. a backs your allegations arguably have. why then do you think it's not a big a mainstream media story? it is here in r t. i cannot speak for him. i think it's a scandal that it isn't because, i mean, this is the absolutely key case on press freedom on freedom of expression, but far beyond on human rights and human dignity on the integrity of our rule of law. institutions of our judicial use to independence of out or destroys the, you know, the transparency, right, to know that people have a right to know what their governments are doing with the tax money and the power that we, the people delegates to our government. this is about our rights, you know, it's about your ability to oversee, to control and you know, the integrity of, of, of your government. because if that becomes a crime with union essentially done, you know, nothing that he has been accused except receiving and publishing evidence for crime. nothing has been proven. you know, this whole sexual allegations have been drugged by sweden, not because it's, you know, expired or something like this. but because they didn't have enough evidence to even charge them of any offense whatsoever. after 9 years, this was instrumental iced to demonize. you know, this, the thing about human having blood is, i mean, it's just ridiculous claim because we know that the u. s. government for, you know, what an a decade has not been able to advance a single case individual who may have been put in danger. because of those publications even know now that during the central, not even the 1st person who published those under directed files. but he made them accessible on wiki leaks as well after they have been made accessible by a passer being published by 2 guardian journalists and stating the weekly journal fi talking in germany. and she did so only after he had taken contact with the white house and tried to do damage control because of the, the leaks by those other actors. so what we know is that the evidence that she has, that's not about people being threatened that people being portrait, people being great. people being murdered, you know, under front of her running camera at these people have never been trusted. have never been how to account and so this is really what this is about. it's about protecting to impunity. criminals of corrupt politicians. this is what this is about. so we want to intimidate the person who has come up with a general idea how to use the internet to allow whistleblowers to remain anonymous while transmitting, you know, millions of files that prove a government misconduct. obviously if that proliferates and the half of the only one we can leaks that we have $15000.00 which leaks around the world. then you know, the kind of security establishment, but they're secrecy. they can pack up and leave with their business model. they really have to start then applying democratic principles being subject to democratic oversights, respect to rule of law, and that's just not today's reality. his finely and i don't know whether that means the journalist himself, their minds are arbitrarily detained. but i don't know whether you caught glimpses of julian assange at the trial this week. he doesn't look well. his partner selim, or as his father john shipped and they, they will look worried. what will it mean now for whistleblowers and publishers in the global south on torture? nobody detention. what would it mean for, for journalism v if he, if he does, it's probably die. now when we start asking this question. if he dies in london under the jurisdiction of british authorities here, well, if you should dying prison, he has effectively been tortured to death. that's the reality of it. i mean, i, and i'm not exaggerate, and i've been working in areas of war. i have long history of visiting prisoners i visited during their sons and i have to specialize forensic doctors with me in a psychiatrist evaluating him for 4 hours and no be all independently from each other kendra's conclusions. at that time his life was in danger, and he sure enough, a few days after we left the prison he entered the boundary spiral. during the sound is not mentally ill. yes, he has a slight form of autism as you know when people do, but he is very resilient, intelligent man and, and so he does not belong in a mental institution. right. so if he has a mental issue now it's because of abuse that he has suffer and you cannot you cannot get someone to recover from torture by continuing, continuing to torture him. and that's exactly what they do. they isolate him, they keep him in back limbo. busy and just put his record straight for everybody doing this. i'm not serving a sentence. he's not even accused of a any anything that will be criminal. he is being held in extradition detention to, as you said, to prevent his escape in case you said yes, dr. young, but he does not need to be in belmar prison for that. even if you isn't a free assume for the purpose of the argument that yes back extradition proceeding as a did him and we have to somehow secure his presence. he can be in house arrest, that's what it is. it was the pin or say he was protected by the u. k. government to put them in a bill on my does. hatcher visited him and brought him misty. and as soon as he, you know, a doctor attested that he had some problems to concentrate and had slight forms of amnesia, he was fumbled out. are we not even facing a dutch do his son who has been great, you know, medical harm has been close to him in the last decade to that, to a constant, you know, isolation, defamation, and abuse, and up a come from anxiety that he suffers. and he's being isolated, absolutely unnecessary, and therefore unlawful. so she is continuously also arbitrarily detained. it would be a tragedy if she lost his life in those circumstances, he had special opportunity. thank you. thank you very much. after the break, the queen putin and she may not be going, but why did the budget of the boards, johnson government, just sabotage. net 0 targets ahead of the weekends comp $26.00 conference? well, the small can we have about to have going underground ah oh, driven by tremendous shapes, bankers and those with sinks. we dare to ask in a welcome back. eyebrows raised the head of tomorrow's club. 26 summit in glasgow and morris, johnson's goldman sachs employee to and you k, chancellor ritchie snack used his budget to cut taxes on color, driving little, dislodge taxes on champagne. joining me from suffolk in england is an award winning advisor to governments around the world. the director of primal policy research in macroeconomics. and thanks so much for coming back on big argument going underground headquarters. i have to say because when you watch the television, they're saying, you know, not a bad budgets and a lot of slight of hand. some were saying, you know, one and 4 children are in poverty in this country, but i guess it's called 26. so i got to start by asking you, why is they worth johnson, chancellor ritchie, select incentivizing airplane travel and car driving. i think that's one of the big disappointment she should, i key seems to think that the financial system and the treasury sits apart from something called the ecosystem, the environment and it doesn't, it's very much a part of it. so what the shows you that the graph, the gravity of the climate breakdown of the crisis that we face of climate breakdown and biodiversity cap. gravity hasn't yet reached him unless extraordinarily, wiring boars. johnson had to sign off on this and his wife certainly is a keen environmentalist. ringback to be fetch the conservative government, they are going quite a lot further than we expected them to you and we have to ruin that that market such it was one of the 1st to raise awareness of climate crisis at the united nation many years ago. so it is possible for them to be aware of this, but yes, not to undertake the policy, a reforms that a needed to actually adapt to this threat. well, he did say the minimum wage is going up. i mean, is that emblematic of flights of hand this wage boost ensures we're making worker and keepers on track to me don't talk to him, lou pay by the end of this parliament without really figuring out what effect that'll have on say the lowest wages of the tax actual insurance, so somebody to pay some people on some of the poorest households will see their incomes rising. but then the total effect of the other reforms, the reforms to the benefit system means that their incomes will in fact fall. so it's, it's a really difficult thing to untangle, but what he is trying to do, and what i think is interesting is that this conservative government is trying to cover up if you like, the mistakes that have been made of the last 11 years since dark george osborne's budget in 2010 am and it cuts to the public sector that has been inflicted since then and done enormous damage to the economy. then to get in to try and cover up with back that be getting to try and reverse that. and they're doing it in ways that are unfortunate. still quite shallow. so for example, expenditure on education is going up, but it's intended to reach the same levels. it was in 2012, 10, the level of investment in 2010 by 2024. so and have are, as they are trying to improve on those cut so that, that austerity, it's a bit rarely minimal. yeah, but i mean, i. e is cartoon. the bank levy surcharge by in effect 660 percent. why do you think he's doing that? well, getting 2 thirds of those on the welfare universal credit, which he caught money from, no extra benefit from some equal the taper. our international views were wonder wouldn't earth we're talking about. but why? i mean, is he trying to contact his own bank so that they remember him when they try and buy british debt? what is it doing it? this is a populist government with an atc majority and they want to maintain that majority in those constituencies. whether or not a lot of poor people are very few goldman sachs bankers. but at the same time, they of course are in hoc to the city of london and to their donors. and who are, you know, we're not from the red hole seats. so they've got to balance this, these, these different challenges. and they finding that difficult. but for me, the really worrying thing action is that actually what they're doing is damaging the economy further. so from the macroeconomic perspective, you can do give, you know, tax breaks to the bankers, but by increasing taxes on average. and is essentially by, by building up the level of taxation to 76 percent of g d p. you are in fact taking money out of the economy, you're taking spending money out of the economy. and simultaneously wage is not rising relative to reinstate. so we see a real cut in incomes. this combination of falling and stagnating comes on the one and tax revenues been taken out of the economy on the other. while investment levels of investment remain low and all gain to remain as long as the threat of interest rate sells. that means that the macroeconomy is not gain to expand is not going to be increased economic activity over the next period. and that was because the poor as people spend every penny they have and the rich thing, keep it in the bank or buy off your property arguably, you know, we talked on this program, sheffield, but also because breaks it was the ongoing impact brexton the beijing on me is going to deepen the damage your failure to exploit breaks that of your brakes. a tier obviously, sheffield. this is vito said, the city of london cost, the british economy, 4 and a half trillion between 19952015. $70000.00 pounds, a personal tune of years of output. i mean, we've set on this bro, instead of reducing taxes on the city of london. oh, would it be better for the economy for it to be burned down? i have to be honest the you know, that the city of london is a major source of tax revenues for the government. and so yeah, that showed it isn't the chevy university. so it was clear that if you had it all in all the hidden subsidies to the city of london, you add in all, obviously there we have the bailouts from graduate. they are a net loss to this economy. there is no point in them being here. that's true, but that's also true for the global economy action. it would work. yes. so, but i mean, i, i'm, as you know, i'm, i'm, i'm well known as the fact that i think the city of london is unhelpful to the stability of the british economy. but you know, it's, as it is, and the government is determined to support it and to defend it, as is indeed the governor of the bank of england. and, and at the same time neglecting, if you like the real economy where things are made and grown. and expanded, and that neglect is going to make it harder to keep land as an attractive venue for, for the global financial, for those active in global financial system. what do you think of how the mainstream television media cover budgets in this country? there's been a lot of criticism of the stimulus package in the united states and book barrel politics. so as they have a struggle over here, i mean, people going, this is a sanded labor torrie type of budget, which, you know, he's showing himself to be a keynesian and so on. and he's, he's a, he's not voucher, right? this is a left wing budget. well, i mean on the one hand that is being fed and it's also the case said, tory back bench is a very unhappy with the level of tax, right. and this is a tax and spend go. and by the way, i, i resent the implication that it's keynesian kits, kansas is not a tax id, ben. but the fact of the matter is that this is a government that is behaving very differently from previous conservative governments. and i think the media doesn't fully understand how to handle it, but it's definitely, you know, there's definitely a populist government that is trying to appeal to much broadest way of the electric then with taxes and champagne and beer. i mean, because it was clear that when the minister was asked on television about whether this will raise the standard of living, they didn't want to be drawn on it. and one resolution foundation, things said that everyone is going to be worse off in the next few years. yeah, that's true. i mean, that there's a lot of contradictions analyst. there are a lot of contradictions in what this government is trying to do. but i would argue that it is popular in the sense that it's trying to deal to way. and this distance itself from the 2010 to an 2016 torrie government under george osborne and distance itself from that kind of policies that were attach, right? we've really difficult to separate yourself from the david cameron government, which is reduced expenditure to, i mean, the cuts were more than more than napoleonic wars. well, the point is that, i mean, i think it's ridiculous that they are pretending that there are different government. there are different political party, but i've seen political parties change their, their colors in the past, and this is what they're trying to do well with us before labor privatization found them. again. i know you advised those govern said of the you to advise mass privatization just to help our viewers here in britain, because they'll see the officer budget responsibility. what is what is that? because it's treated with such respect my journalist and getting you treated out as well. danny blanch flora, a friend of the show was on the monetary policy committee. said the officer, budget responsibility is repeatedly got to say group productivity growth, wrong time and time and time again. and yet, john, let's go, let's go straight here for more information on every once in the future for everyday life in this country. well, i think it, i agree with you the i b r is incredibly orthodox in the way it approaches these that the british economy and has made an awful. ringback lot of wrong predictions is danny blanche has shown and i think it is beginning to lose credibility. miss media because it got so much wrong in the spring of this year when it projected said that things were going to be far worse than they've turned out to be. so i think you're being a bit unfair to the media because they do, and they have noticed, i notice this and i think it's quite ha, under its new management for the o, b, r, to uphold its reputation as, as a sound, a sounding board for the government, we've all known all along the seattle or is actually just an extension of her majesty's treasury. there's never boy, they say they bring you down until 5 year for god, for the economy, the folk as a company, the budget, the corporate, via by good tax, the very standard statement we got from we obee are you being very kind to join this? i have to say just finally quickly, on the aid and we've covered on this program, o 8 has been used to arguably a al qaeda link rebels in syria. it's used as an arm of the foreign office here, and even the intelligence services they persuaded him to say, look, we will go back to point 7 percent aid so that the mora aid can be used as a foreign policy tool by government as the host of the of of cop trench 6 and it's climate conference. the government has to pressure other governors into coming up with a $100000000000.00 a year, which has been promised to poor countries to help tackle climate breakdown. and the fact they've got their own source, their own grants to poor countries is as proved incredibly embarrassing and tories in the house of lords have objected to the story party has objected to this. and so they're beginning to pull back on it. but you know, this again is just an example of the kind of chaotic and very difficult to understand a politics of this, of this government and bird. it's, but it's part of this package of, on the one attaching the economy. on the other hand, you know, doing a you turn on age to low income countries and certainly just ignoring the security threat to the bridge. people of climate break that an extraordinary thing is that in the opinion polls it is still maintaining public support guy. mm hm. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of the last season. we'll be back on wednesday, the 12th of january, but until then stay safe. and you can watch all our interviews by subscribing to our youtube channel. i'm falling us on all our social media. ah, mass guy, there's financial survival guide, liquid assets, those that you can convert into it quite easily. but keep in mind, no, as if you need to equation better, watch guys report to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy. even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk with ah deadly unread sweet kills x. the. the biggest report is captured by rioters amid nationwide chaos parked by a fuel price hike. the presidents, the nice that an act of terrorism is these terrorist gangs are essentially international. they've undergone serious training, approved their attack on catholic stone, must be viewed as an act of aggression. the central asian country has imposed a nationwide state of emergency that governments resigned more than one time protesters to topple a statue of the former president also ahead french president, a manual micron resorts through some lung say re language to ticket one on

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