Im action or can see were getting underground. The uncovering allies told by the so called mainstream media coming up in the show of the us and gun ships into afghanistan. This why do you suppose withdrawal from the country . We speak to award winning journalist and former british army captain, who and smith about 2 decades of lives told about the war and ask if truth can be found in the fog of war. While the western media differ to power and is u. K prime minister boards, johnson the government backs new colonialist actions around the world. We speak to the artist who is bringing colonial sculpture to the heart of imperialism, london, stuff. How good glen all the more coming up in todays going underground. But 1st taking Place Today is another extradition hearing. In the case of julian, the son j trial, that could decide the fate of journalism around the world. The wiki, Lynx Publisher is famous among other things for the african war logs, one of the largest leeks in u. S. Military history. They detailed the horror of the Nato War and f can its done, including hundreds of reported civilian killings. So what was it all for now that us troops appear to be finally leaving F Canister . Joining me now from norfolk in the u. K is warn smith, a former Soldier And Award winning journalist whos imbedded with the british army in afghanistan in 27. And also gave shelter to julian sandy, this home in 2010 in the wake of the release of the wall logs. Hes the founder of londons front 9 club for journalists. Welcome back von, to going underground. It wasnt that long ago. I seem to remember that there were journalists, your Frontline Club telling us things were going fine in this war after 911 will be with the saudis that were more involved in afghanistan. You were embed, it told you didnt helmand after serving the british army and you get slow via. What do you make of events now . And i tv screens. I want, yes i did. I did 3 beds. Actually i was in bed with my own old regiment cuz id been a soldier myself in the olden days. And yes, you right, thats been so much News And Discussion of this. This was, this is a factor to go on. On the 20 year weve been in a kind of 20 years very long time. And so i think today people are slightly dumbfounded and, and dont quite see what it was. It was all for. I dont think it makes sense to people. I think the reporting was been quite poor and i think Peoples Understanding of what happens that doesnt make sense. I think people are very confused about whats happening now. I mean, the thing that i think about it is, is something that a friend of mine says who lost the chasm. Actually it was a cousin and how, what people were saying that and they, they were, you know, kind of stop making the sacrifice. But they see that was to protect us and to protect person from from terrorism. And so i think people are quite concerned as to when does that stand now . I mean, we protected them. That doesnt seem much to take home. Theres doesnt seem much that weve got half of 20 years of war. And what is going to be a good soldiers . Did they know that britain had previously supported the Merger Dean that became the talent, the this Term Taliban that is used all. I didnt, i didnt find a huge amount of understanding of afghanistan within the british army. I felt that people did genuine to be the soldier general, believe they were doing good. They believe that they were that to try to help people. Thats what soldiers would say. And i think there was a sudden i even see, i didnt think we understood history. I mean, you know, we lost a whole army there. Ready in 181842. And we just lost 456 soldiers over 20 years. That is the chief. Nothing is. What i find quite interesting about in terms of soldiers says soldiers, very proud of being in the british army. The british Army Hasnt actually lost very many wars in its entire history. In fact, one of the ones we lost was the one we mentioned 1842, and ive kind of we just lost 2 wars on iraq over the last 20 years, which hadnt been sol reputation. But that doesnt seem to be a recognition of that because we just blame the americans. So i think theres a lot of confusion about whats happening. Its gonna take a long time to digest. Im sure the british army last in many more places than that. Im thinking this is a propaganda in the british army. Clearly they, they want to tell where they were told that the graveyard of, i mean they were actually serious allegations are british soldiers torturing and killing children. And as you know, but i mean, i think we get back to this idea of what ger let alone commanding offices. Although often nuremberg that may not be any excuse. You know, you know the journal. You had afghan officials in the front by him club. I seem to remember, and they would talk about Post Conflict Development and all sorts of things, but it was all rubbish. No, i think i dont think it was rubbish. I think they were the intentions, but that was a fundamental mistake. Clearly i think who all the soldiers i speak to, i dont think that many of i speak to would have come to the hope being a waste of time. I havent quite caught that fall. Yes. But they do feel that they made a terrible mistake by staying in after the initial invasion of acronyms on when they kicked out how the bomb and, and defeated them effectively and then stayed on for what purpose, because they werent rebuilding, if you compare what the russians did and kind of what the americans and brits are just on this very interesting. In 1979. The russians are not going to solve for 10 years. And then then with a feature that left, but they had intended to stay. And so they invested lot in the country, they invested into an infrastructure that, you know, a lot of doctors or civil servants who meet not kinda sounds staying. Were trained by the russians all that time ago. And there is a section that we in 20 years and i think its quite important if you take my to 79, ive got to storm its fat that has been complex that ever since 970 not. I think shocking is that weve been 20 years of that weve, weve contributed to that, of course, but the big cold War Thing when we were supporting the much dean against the russians during 7989. But essentially when they look at the russians, at least they say that a lot of dead tanks, we had a hot mess a little bit more and we didnt the part so much scrap metal. But you see that the africans had to say about the enemies, the enemies have the guns, but the africans have the time and they proven theyve been proven right. We, you know, 20 years where out they want. I mean, its almost hard to remember the breathless reports by bbc and other reports as in 2122 and talking about victory. I mean, was the media controlled, i mean, and who smuggled yourself in, in persian Gulf War, one to become one of the only uncontrolled journalists and covering that war. I know you were embedded and have cancer, but with a journalist controlled is that why people in britain, in the United States clearly did not get an accurate picture of the impact of native the nation troops in afghanistan . Yes, i think theres a lot to be said for that, but your opinion on what you just said because effectively in the scuffle way. Yes i did. Describe myself the soldier having left 5 years and was a john on controls. The attempt to control janice in the 1st Gulf War was very intense in the 2nd go. Whats the that the army had done . Is they, they develop something called embedding. Where what they would do is they would control jonas by exchanging access for independence. So if you became an embedded journalists and ive done them 5, i know you said they didnt get access to both sides of you got very controlled axis. You had no logistical independent, logistical. Its very controlled access. And if they didnt like what youre reporting, you will not invite you to do so again. So theres no question about it by doing so you exchange your independence for and for access, but im afraid it was very effective because it was run by an Outfit Called Media operations. And you know, its all in the name. I mean, you know, journalists were the subjects of an operation by the british on. Im to effectively control outputs. Now, in a sense, you might reasonably say, look, mama was, is about, you know, Information War and the digital aids, its become more important to armies. And i think thats a fair point, but who says that information will be directed again . Should it be directed against the enemy, World Opinion . Should it be defensive or offensive, where i have issue where i was rather disappointed was a very great deal of the efforts by the media operations was directed at keeping public support for the war getting rather than informing the public, actually about whats going on. And i think journalists, because the pictures youve got on them, that was so amazing. I mean you get awards for this amazing stop the access to frontline reporting with extraordinary through, through this embedding. But ultimately, i think it, we failed the rich public because we didnt inform them about what happens and i think, you know, still today, you know, the arguments delivered by the army. We should still be there. Im sort of miss the point. I think we havent really nailed the question of whether, you know, whether the was we have a delivered in iraq and afghanistan. Have they made oh, or they made us less. It seems to me suddenly the laugh and obviously tens of millions killed wounded or this place that goes, americans will recognize what you say about embedding from, from vietnam. But while you are saying, look, i was embedded on in the, i recognize the constraints, some journalists, they came back detesting those that werent embedded. Did you, what did you think of the recriminations against Robert Fisk of the late Robert Fisk, one of the greatest journalists, arguably of trying to hit that century . Maybe it seemed a lot of reporters with N G and his Body Wasnt Cold and they were saying, yeah, he wasnt a real journalist the way the was, you know, as if, because he wasnt imbedded, he wasnt a journalist. Well, i dont wanna get into the business of defending individuals. Im actually more interested. Im not even actually one thing to criticize individual organizations. I think collectively journalistically we have failed to inform the public. And i agree, i mean, you mentioned robert as can. He was certainly a voice who told people things i didnt want, you know, we want to hear and there are other voices like that but that we will base no. But i feel that there has been a tendency for journalism to slightly close off. Its almost like an acceptable window of reporting. Im not saying it doesnt, doesnt contribute to a public service. It does, even though its in its current form, i believe it fails massively in, in terms of failing to properly explain whats not in, not accept the window. And i feel that, you know, voice is on the outside. We dont care or listen to it all. Peril, and i think, you know, both the african and iraq was which we lost. Where, you know, what expedition. It was a choice. Its quite tenuous, but link as to how they were put. Were protecting our populations. It was so just protecting also time how is that really happening . I didnt think that was necessarily proven or explained. And i said earlier, certainly the situation is being made worse by, by, you know, by us, after failing to actually support and when an achieve any objectives. Fundament for the afghans knew when they thought also does there one that we were going to go day. Im to that we werent really bad to help them because we were carrying gums and so, you know, yeah, looks at that and see the foreigners, that country, you know, can you come . What are you going to do . Youre going to fight back. I mean, and in a sense we misunderstood the fact that we do that thinking with doing good because we persuade ourselves and a lot of bad news management. When actually you really have to question what were doing. And is the Mist Terrorism over the overseas increase. I know youre involved with this big translator story, rather than ordinary afghans. Run the agenda on the ground that people have written that will give us these translators. I mean its difficult to ask, given you are obviously help helping them and, and feel compassion for them. Can you understand that the global sounds would consider them traitors if not even. I mean, obviously the taliban do, because they worked with Nato Nation troops and have done and therefore these translators of justifiably enemy combative. No, i mean, i have that view. Im dont necessarily subscribe fully. I do. Ive been, im very much aware of it. I, i feel i feel compassionate. Anybody at risk . I think these people have been pushing risk and i think we should be saving everybody if we possibly can. I do. I do come in the media if im getting together. It was quite extraordinary. I mean, it was led by a bought by 2 genesis sunday time to talk to us and god, and just an unnamed lawyer who put this together. I commend the press for doing that. I think that the media needs to the costs of the people it works with. Im but i likewise, im the army saving its translation, which is much more what youre talking about. I the journalist would like to believe that we can report and have no him and its always disappointing for us. I think a good journalist. They feel that you are actually impacting and thing we do want to try and do some good. We want to leave the well developed place. I think thats an idealism. And that fundamentally, if you caN Give the public accurate information that they can make better decisions than that, thats a whole some thing. But its clearly failing and the digital. Ready wells, im in information where you become a tool of one side or both sides are all sides. And these things get incredibly complicated. Varner, stop you there more from the founder of the front Line Club on the prosecution of wiki leaks, publisher julian sons. After this break plus anti colonial sculpture comes to the heart of imperialism, the financial survival guide. I dont. Why a guy on the teachers. Thats not an almost friday at the last time i buy it for the future. So watch, guys are replacing me. Welcome back. Im still here with the founder of londons from 9 club born smith. You are speaking to me from the house, and you gave assigned them to before President Career of ecuador to julie and assigns. I mean, what do you make of Jo Bidens Justice department claiming that they have a justified appeal against the british court, saying that hell be protected in custody in the United States . Im. Im incredibly disappointed. Im slightly heartbreaking about it. I mean, i know julian personally and hes not the person. His character is not as described by, you know, people who denigrate and julian has got off every day of is everyday feeling. But hes, hes serving the public. Im troubled by the way that we caN Gang off against somebody whos got something that we say, but might not quite fit into what lots of people want to have. That actually we benefit by hiring, hiring people and, and, and voice like students i, im, you know, a marginalized and actually whats happened, jim legally is so disgraceful. Its so completely clear. But the law applied to julia and the law replied to say you or i, or anybody who might be watching you in this country is quite a different thing. The julian has been picked up to make an example of him and the suffering hes going through is intended to dissuade other people from doing what he did. Now. I personally believe, but what he did was an incredible contribution to the public understanding is very much part of our understanding of what transparency should be an important debate that he brought to us. I feel about what, what, what ro, secrecy, and transparency should have in the world. And i think the public havent really been able to sort of focus on that or not because distracted. I all the, all the lies and smear, which is a monumental proportions against you. And its quite extraordinary. Im the will. Its being completely pulled over our eyes. I think be, it is just a calling saying because of the obama and the Bomber Administration decided not to do this. It was, it was from who actually took the faction trumps ministration to actually get students. And i had that bike would drop it because it is essentially an assault on journalism and it ties into whats happening in our country as well. I think we should be really worried about, you know, our government is looking at Legislation Today about how you know about secrets and, you know, its tending to already the public interest. Defense is, you know, when, when you leave something and you can theN Go to court and say this was in the public interest. Well thats, that was removed by mrs. Patrick. But all the other arguments that might have defended. I mean, im sure some of your audience would have seen and seen care and likely in in hospital my sexual secrets about catherine gum. The way that ive been emerson, the famous q c, who defended catherine then, was able to protect. Im told im, you know, wouldnt, wouldnt be a defense in the future. And so it is very wiring what happens and all of these things fit together. And, and fundamentally, those people who are trying to keep the public informed appeared to be in retrace at the moment. So not institutions are being support who are not on use organizations, i think needs to get out on the front and trying to defend things which are getting too hung up on things like the definition of a journalist. Well, what is the Journalist Today . Well actually in the new media where anybody can blog Shows Jonathan values robin a job description. And so i think that went well losing math and this attendance. I think that the traditional media to get hung up for self interested purposes in terms of what a definition as a genesis, ive been a free loss, janice, all my career clinic, probably so and i found freelance journalist can be evangelist about the ethics and i see that a lot of blog is, and i think that we need to really look at trying to find a way of understanding who we need to believe and its incurred to be complicated. But those people like junior songs youve made such a contribution to getting marchmont von smith. Thank you. And you can watch our interview with julian a sounds and Catherine Gun on our youtube channel. Well, weve just been discussing up canada, started country, devastated over decades by new colonialist intervention from Nato Nations. But as a prime Minister Barak Johnsons Government seems more preoccupied with a debate around statues of races, Trafalgar Square legend before flint is to be doing with a new sculpture, celebrating resistance against colonial rule. Joining me now is the artist behind the professor. Samson can bother fans and welcome to going underground. Your sculptures means elected to be on the 4th flint in Trafalgar Square in the center of london looked over by a nelson various colonial other statues. They say the 4th split is future may be reserved for queen elizabeth. G dies, who is the baptist preacher, john chil, him wear who you depict in this sculpture . Dont you think we will be unknown to a lot of people . And for me, thats what actually inspired everybody bring fell on story to target square, where they for me, from america, africa. We now invited you because i thought, well, i would do something on that, please me, something to me, even if it doesnt mean much public way somehow i thought maybe by going specific i could go universe. So thats what happened. Dont she died in 1960. During the rising he was protesting against the corner injustices. And one of the justices was actually wearing of hot before white people. You few can we brandon the way people you only have to take it off. In fact a l and you know, external shoes and yeah, dont see them but stood up against this. We could support for me is framed, you can see on the plane, dont trolley an english missionary. And he staged his photograph, months before the uprising and distributed of the former, far forgotten to support and amongst his followers. And yes, so when you look at the photograph looks ordinary, but actually these 2 main, one white, the black wedding had together was pretty submissive. But more so the half is a bit like taking the knee famously called the deplorable, at least the black lives matter movement. By boris johnsons. Im secretary yes, i think this issue is still going on. Its who gets to where the house gets to have. I think its, i think some members of society thinks that maybe other members of such shouldnt be wearing that hot and you shouldnt be supporting people like that wanting fighting for we call it a basically yes. So that they are hot becomes the middle full minute thing. What do you mean when you said that your selection is a Litmus Test for how much you belong in british society . This was before black lives, Massa And George floyd of 2 years ago. But these are the most spheres in africans with blacklist and new expedients, and they always minister for me. And i wanted to tell if there was an appetite from the public to go specific. Its one thing to say we need diversity. Ah will black people, but its quite another to start putting detail to, to, to, to do, to, to, to, to black experience. And for me dont, she begins to put detail to the african experience. We all are and we need tolerance and diversity. I mean, you must be in your reaction then to the Oligarch Owned Media here in this country saying this sculptures of a terrorist and then site or a racist and the same sort of media that obviously once churchill is still in parliament square, obviously responsible for the bangle family, so maybe the calling you a for to describe the joint team was working because im sure that that behaves, that people are talking about those dont even try to discredit you now. Yeah. Because they knew actually that he would, hes appraising was more symbolic. And in fact, hes slow as i q team of passivity, of kind of not being proactive enough doing the rising. Because for him, the appraisal was symbolic. So i think there was no need to kind of stuff when becoming a st. And they also decrease please church, you know, as soon as they put down their price and also went into destroys church and the spectacular photographs of the church on the internet as well. And they appear to be doing the same way because as its hot, really, although the chip, its just going down at the same time seems to be, are, seem to be rising into into significant somehow he started close again if you like. And but the white man is shorter than the black revolutionary in this particular sculpture sites. Dont read or does it. And i can tell you what the thing dont. Charlie is actually when we say i size this to say that hes this size of the statues on the square. So he is the normal size will cover this. Well, dont you and balloons. The electric cost im showing the sculpture goes up, meaning wont be thrown. Is as bad, i think the disgust to please the size, what size me see when the sculpture goes up. I think that the 2 figures for me fighting for a condition, the tangle and to make sense of the structured have to go round. And theres an animation my practice as an artist is based on film. You look at film posters, we could pick the most straightforward examples are still possible is always big size and the support is always small. But in the end, i think its kristen of what size me. One could say perhaps this is a monumental charlie. And maybe in this project, more people are going to have to read up about the history of malawi and the anti colonial struggle. You described yourself as a situationist. I wondered whether you had any temptation to emulate some of the other 4th splintered hands. Haka had the City Of London Shap prices around it. Im not saying you could have had that around july when john surely but jim, but it was the situation is did say that the Advance Capitalism breeds dis satisfaction. We attempted to add things to the sculpture to make it more apparent. The connections between these 2 figures and ordinary londoners everyday lives in Advance Capitalism. They spoke of art nor to form of representation. But then we interested in the socialized proxies, you know, the social side of art. And they were also interested in alternative economy to, to, to, to, to capital. And this is the gift, and in africa, its called and development we, im coming from, but actually the Gift Economy in africa to robust one place with capital its media struggling to crock. Im going to finish by just saying that boris johnson, the u. K. Prime minister will no doubt dr. Pas your sculpture every day. He said, the problem is not about africa that were in charge, but were not in charge any more. What do you, what do you make of boris Johnsons View of, of the effect . The issues in this work in Trafalgar Square thats about to happen. Actually, i would like to put it to him that i think this is the world is coming to africa. In my opinion. In my travels, i know quite a bit now in asia, america and europe. What you have now. So africa. Your company is mon pileys, off and what is capital leaving off a little black culture and this black conscious coming from africa for me. He still gather way around its, its not well that changes africa. I think its africa, the changes the world. Well, it can be to africa where they, this thing is about place. Thats another thing, but i know for sure that the so called Gift Economy square. So going to go away and im sure its going to help the last word of it. What do you have in the community . What do you have, which is the Gift Professor fans and gamble and thank you. Thats over the show will be back saturday, 27 years in the David Carlos the jackal global. And d, colonial Freedom Fighter or terrorist, depending on who you believe was captured by french forces in food on until then keep in touch with social media and tell us who are, what do you think should be celebrated or commemorated in your Town Or City square . Oh, what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy plantation, let it be an Arms Race is often very dramatic. Developments only personally, im going to resist. I dont see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk me the news but in police say the use of violence is part of germanys legal System Response to claims of using excessive force. Again, is that a recent anti Lockdown Running . Because you didnt songs cases once again in london like court, Washington Appeal to extradite him to the us. Im pretty sure position leaders lending his support. The whistleblower really is under threat. Is one of the freshman. What is also the threats of example about take my 1st helicopter, right. Can be for a better reason. I dont joins a Helicopter Crew battling the devastating wildfire. Ravishing rushes fall east from