Wilkinson, its great to talk to you. Thank you very much for finding the time. Its a pleasure, its lovely spring here in Saint Petersburg and that now every now and then the international community comes up with certain bosworth that per political speeches. And right now its Energy Transition, the replacement of Fossil Fuels with renewables for a trip to generation. How far along are we into this process . There has been many Energy Transitions. We happen to be in a certain era of energy transmission, which is the shift from Fossil Fuels to renewable energy. If youve been previous transitions, we could think about the transition from biofuels would already we bend oregon, and then we discovered coal, coal safe, the foreign when we found oil oil, say the whale. And now were in an area where were trying to save the planet. We want to be able to use energy and have special lives, but also to live on healthy planet. And the challenge is the energy. Its the emissions of Carbon Dioxide or other greenhouse gases that were trying to manage. And theres many different ways of doing that. So transition has begun in transition and its proceeding along many different routes and half way and how far along are read into this process are only in the Beginning Stage or somewhere, lets say, because many countries are talking now about the carbon is ation horizon. I think 75 percent of them have already said certain goals doesnt mean that we are pretty much advanced internet richer if we, i mean the, the Energy System has been comp and i think were producing less carbon for more energy for century. But what were trying to do with accelerates the paste, the bat. Scientists say that we need to be below 2 degrees, homing on from pre industrial time. So we try and work out then. This is how much carbon that could be used or put into the atmosphere. What does that mean for Energy Use . And im so the, the challenge is to find ways of view, sanitary, walked, emitting less greenhouse gases. Not speaking about acceleration because this whole discussion about climate change generates not only urgency, but also a lot of i would say. And the central anxiety there is a lot of do they talk and the deadlines for saving the planet, you know, keep, keep changing. How much of russia is warranted or even, you know, goods in discussions on climate change . Well i, i would encourage society to avoid politics of fair for future because i think it brings out the worst behaviors and everybody the, the tree phase. If we looked 30 years ago when we were talking about climate change, we would be talking about temperature re price is about to 12. 00 degrees centigrade. And weve already managed to move that down to possibly 2 degrees. A 1. 5 degree fence, great. The challenges, we still have a long way to go because the population is still growing and people need more energy and with more energy come more emission. So the question is, how do we use more energy but like the mission and were not there yet. Were still in a way that says we would get to more than 2 degrees warning, but theres lots of different initiatives happening. Lots of Innovation And Government companies, Community Case started to declare these different targets. I think were in this area of what i would call target some timeline. Its going to be followed by a period of right. If not, i come from the World Energy Council, which is the community a route built. You can have the best plan in the world, but actually the best approach has to be felt. A lot of people talking about essential dangers of climate change are flying in personal jobs. Wheres millions of people around there will still have to gather would to cook their dinners . I heard you use the term Energy Justice. How does it factor in into this whole discourse on Energy Transition . So in a world of 7000000000. 00 plus people, the reality is that its nearly a 1000000000 people lack any access to any form of modern energy. They dont have any electric control, but 3 and a half 1000000000 people lack access to clean cooking. And if youre to just the cooking, its women. So if you cant have clean cooking you you okay for and you have all the air pollution, you have a shorter life. So Energy Justice is about how do we provide quality energy, Access Everybody everywhere. So that they can live better live. Im how do we do that . I mean, why should we start with carbon . Lets say, i mean, and carbon is the most immediate Energy Source for many, the disadvantage populations around the world. Why should we start . Smith, demonizing, a Fossil Fuels rather than lets say, asking the most privileged ones to give up on some of that luxury. Well, isnt a one size fits all solution. You need all, you need people to be more energy efficient. Theyve got lots of energy, consuming, lots of energy, you need them to be responsible about how you make them to be responsible. Governments can make people be responsible for people, a name government, the most privileged and they are. And theyre the ones who leave the, the biggest footprint, carbon footprint, theyre talking about those issues, but theyre not changing the behaviors. They want the other somebody else to do that. Well, i think we can all change all, but we can all adopt better behaviors. I mean, the different states, if you live in a country where you have no energy, then you get a different conversation about what needs to be done. And if you live in a country that has lots of energy and its all based off of you. For this new singles, the same starting point, right . If i take africa, one of the cheapest way of getting energy to people who live in the country in rural community is to give them a solar panel and a mini grid. And that will help them provide some basic access cheaply, but it wouldnt help them with clean cooking and it wouldnt help them with industrialization about like going to need or a centralized power system. So theyre either going to use common nuclear. Well, they going to use gas with some form of Carbon Reduction on it. So the challenges to move away from this conversation of them all this versus that and think that its about we and how we fit these solutions together. I want to ask you about the recent Electricity Collapse in texas, where millions of people were left for 4 days without. Hed been lied and at least 30 people died because thats, thats an interesting question. Whether its some sort of a Backup System. Also based Backup System should continue to take. I wonder if this whole thing changed. The way you think about those issue. Tech has been remarkable in increasing the amount of renewable electricity in its system. And when it at experienced an extreme weather event. Its also in texas, texas has its own system. It doesnt want to be integrated within the rest of the united states. Thats a historical issue. And the challenge of why so many people were affected, it was, it was poor and people who died is because the mark, if you just leave it to the market alone, the market goes to have a pay the highest price. And when you got very little electricity, the price goes up very high and People Cant afford it. So for the last 10 years, weve been developing whats called the energy try and enter in debt, and it measures the performance of government and how they managed their Energy Systems. So we look at energy security, energy affordability, and equity, and environmental sustainability. And we encourage government to learn from each with each other about how they can do better in texas. Could look at that. We can take that down to the state level. We can take it to the city level. So we can encourage government and we can encourage citizens to hold governments into account about how their Energy Systems are performing. As far as i understand, one of the factors in what happened in texas and Power Outage was wrong. Whether in demand assumptions, because people simply underestimated how call they could get how widespread they do and demand could become. And this is just a tax problem. We are seeing extreme weather conditions all around the world right now. Isnt a risk to rush food be they had with a changing the Energy Balance while the ground conditions are also changing . Sean predictably, are their potential risks with huge, quick over change the way through the human being to benefit what we way again the risk. So the challenge is not just to transition the Energy System, but steers in a way where we get clean, affordable, and reliable. So you want resilience. Obviously we want guarantees, but not nothing gives you guarantees. But as you said before, there were many previous power traditions or Energy Transitions around them, but they always happens in their own pace. And when its, when that piece is natural, you know, that gives you some sort of a hedging, always to be, all are walking into the unknown. But if the pace is moderate, then you can make adjustments as you roll your adver getting and many people in the world are advocating in needed very urgent action. And that i would suppose increase his risks of certain possibilities that we still cannot account for. Im not advocating a pace of change which is urgent or immediate. Im not advocating for pay for change, which is bearable to society. Im saying that we dont have any choice. Were going to have to move cost or if we dont want to. If we continue business as usual pace of change, we will end up in a, a warm well, which is bad for everybody. But we cant say, if we can say 20502060, we want to get to climate utility. Then we have to say, how do we do that . And the how, if the real determinant of whats affordable clean and what job. So theres no one to move away to the future. Thats right for everybody to need different options. So come to thought some african hed be able to go. So its not, thanks be it doesnt produce hardly any carbon emission, but it doesnt have enough energy for anybody. So it needs to get to 2050 and be climate neutral. But it was in a way where it can use more gas, more nuclear and more renewable. And its not a question of either or the question of and if we want to go further together and we want to foster and further together, we need more degrees of freedom, the less degrees of climate change. So we need more options. Now, i heard you say ones that if you want to talk about anything other than renewables, you are the devil. And thats probably a problem in the west. I think theres some countries including russia where, you know, the pace of change is a little bit slower for economic and political reasons as well as cultural ones. But do you think it may become easier for you and others to look at the problem in more ways . Than this problem to politicians, to the World Community in more detail without presenting renewables as the only option is the only moral option. Because sometimes the, this whole discussion seems to be very much focused on on one source advantage. Well, i would agree with you. I think the Energy Leadership Landscape has become more crowded, more fragmented, and more polarized. Next october in st. Petersburg will run for world energy congress, the 25th world energy congress, and its on energy for humanity. I represent the worlds oldest world energy community. This is the community that since 923 has worked on energy for peace, energy for prosperity, and now we work on energy for people in planet. How do we get more inclusive . How do we get a more affordable, clean, and socially just Energy Transition pathways . We dont, i talk about the race to be around this new winner in a race to say it right. There are races to 0 and weve got to make sure, but the way we have this conversation allows more space to talk about renewables and the best friends we can. Gala renewable unless we use more Oil And Gas, dr. Wilkinson, we have to take a very short break right now. We will be back in just a few Moments State you me or i join me every 1st day on the alex summon show, and ill be speaking to guess in the world, the politic sport business. Im show business, ill see you then. Me the me. Ah, welcome back to the parts with Angela Wilkins from the secretary general. Im feel of the World Energy Council wilkinson. We are recording this interview in russia, which has benefited tremendously from traditional Energy Sources from Fossil Fuels and it is sometimes presented in western media as oppositional or even disruptive when it comes to renewables. Do you think thats true . Have you seen examples of such behavior . I think russia is a major resource holders. Thats cool. Its got lots of oil. Its got lots of gas, its it has lots of technology around nuclear. It has lots of technology around hydrogen. Moving into all these different frontiers of the new Energy Future. I think its important to think about what Energy Future were aiming for. When we used to talk about energy in the 19th century, we used to talk about Supply Side with what we were trying to do. We were trying to find how could we find more energy in the world to give it to more people these days were worried that if we have abundant penetrate, we might have not enough planning. Right . So the differences, now were in Energy Abundance changes to compensation. Russia, like other countries are looking to prepare for a customer centric climate neutral, abundant Energy Future that changes the economics of Oil And Gas. Its not just all about Oil And Gas. It provides the opportunity cost a Technology Innovation. This is a country that, that put a man in space talking. I cant believe that there isnt a lot of Technology Innovation going on and im waiting to hear what the next big thing to come out of. Rochelle, i think, is not defensive about even exploring Oil Gas at least for the foreseeable future. In fact, actively looking for new fields and building new pipelines, just as other Fossil Fuel producers. And whats interesting is that the united states, as one of the leaders in renewable, is also pretty dollars in undermining conventional energy projects. Dont you think thats an indication that neither side believes that Oil And Gas Phase And Number you know, the amount of energy, emotional, political energy theyre putting into those new projects isnt that . And just of that, they still believe that to some extent, traditional Fossil Fuels also have a future bullet, talk about the Energy System rather than the politics of the Energy System. We could, if i point out the reality, but we might understand why theres still some Development Today in the world Energy System 20 percent one, electrified off that 157 percent is renewable electrification. That means that a large part of the Energy System is not electric. And even if you look at all the best roadmaps, they will tell you that by 2050, we might have got electrification up to half of the Energy Uses for this new doubt. But even though were trying to get to climate neutrality, were still having to produce more energy. So i would like just to think that its not energy, thats the problem. Its the emission. So theres a problem, and thats what were offering. Thats what government the big going to be held accountable for the emission before debility and the Equity Knowledge of the supply economics. And it also depends on how you calculate. I know that there are some experts who believe that we should take into account not only emissions that are taking place in the gym cation, but rather rather the emissions that are going into satisfying our needs. Many, if you consider the Consumption Level in the developed world, even, even if you know, would be the good that theyre consuming is produce how the world, the way theyre still contributing to, to those emissions on the other side of the globe. Other ways to factor all of that in because its, its, i think its easier for wealthy people to feel good about, you know, driving a hybrid car or an electric car and still would about themselves to good about, you know, protecting mother earth. You know, the batteries for that star was produced. You know, how the World Way in very, very dirty condition. You know, a, you know, the, this is the general ive usually in the detail. I agree with you, but im also from the break Building Community, not the road, not to be the key. Im not sending the target. Im the im, i represent a community of people who change and manage Energy Systems across, well, they do that in a way where theyre all looking to make it clean, affordable, and reliable. So i can look at story from peru, from stories from india, from story from different now. But lets, lets look at the stories from the United Kingdom and the united states. And because i think that the message is not resonating. Now that its not only about how much were meeting job graphically, its also about how much we are consuming county. So the climate Change Issue without fundamentally thinking about our own lifestyle in, i dont know. I agree, thats why we have a platform that we need to get to the 90 percent. Pollution is not the true connection, and were not going to be able to do that with only thinking about the Supply Side that weve got to prepare for this customer centric climate neutral Energy Future. Weve got to find demand, strip, and solution. Im there. Awesome, remarkable stories. From around the world, so its not impossible to do. Its just that we spend so much time talking about technology and investment. We forget that whats really going to make Competition Work is involving more people in creating solutions that is suitable for that situations in lifestyle. And i said, im, i, i get, i go into international form and im very pleased to see that weve got timeline and target. But im very aware that no blueprint guarantees a future of society. Its the implementation of the blueprint while you find out whether it works or not, or how to make it work. So were road Building Community and well build different roads of different shapes and sizes that enable more 90 percent of the population to get clean energy. Now lets talk about all the different roads and how theyre structured because energy has always been synonymous with power, not just electricity, power, but political power. And as the Energy Equation is being received, bound to have some sort of an impact on international politics, on how various countries relate to one another. Have you given in this any on . Do you think its going to make a world a safer place on the country and more contentious . Like to say we were founded as a community in an area where there was a concern about energy for peace. If any governments develop for sources and didnt think about societies or about the effects of rule, then we would end up in a very different well. So we dont have in 1923, just after and influenza pandemic. And just before the great depression, talking about energy for humanity, 100 years later, were still talking about and well be talking about it for, i guess another few 100 im moving it forward, right. So the question is yes, but the politics of energy is changing. Its no longer all about Oil And Gas. Whats happening if youre getting a more multi polar politics going on internationally. Youre getting a much more decentralized conversation around and change the need to comment to involve more people getting messier. That creates more complicated coordination challenges and for that we have to, we quit Society Business and government to what to get the better to achieve one of the big players in the renewable sector in china and controls much of the Production Chain from mining rare earth materials all the way to contribute to cables. There is there, there is a lot of concern in the developed parts of the world about empowering china, but in a ways to bind if you want to push or have the renewable sector, you will have to end up benefiting china. Economic which, which of these 2 challenges climate change or and empower china . Do you think concerns . Western worlds more . I dont name. I think it probably varies from country country, but its not what concerns me. What concerns me is that were moving out of an era where Energy Futures were determined by Technology And Money and into an Energy Future where theyre going to be determined by society and demand. But the doctor wilkinson. I mean, its always going to be determined by both. I mean as much as we want to believe in the human spirit. You know, the history of Humanity And Jazz is not always the goodwill and the peoples intention. Determine, be in the flow of History And Power will always remain power both as a resource for, you know, living our lives and as, as an influence. But a, when you move out of an area thats defined by the gas to Fossil Fuel, into an area thats defined by more abundance and diverse sources of energy, the power, the value is moving closer to the energy. Thats a different politics. So im not saying its about goodwill and being nice to each other. Im saying the reality is, the Value Generation is moving close to, to the end, use that, that gives the end to more power. That we thing a shift in power in energy. Now, any solution always creates a problem thats the Way Sign develops. One of the major logical issues associated with renewables is the, is the problem of storage. You know, how much do you store, how much do share with your neighbors . Do you think we have reached the point where we can really have enough trust in one another in our neighbor in, you know, not only international but even domestically. We mentioned to texas example and its a good example of, you know, not even lack of trust. Perhaps wanting to you know, to secure everything yourself. How much, how much is the impediment to the kind of philosophy that you try to spread . I think i see a lot more country having conversations about the need for regional cooperation, regional cooperation for gas grades. This one is regional Cooperation Project trusted with or hydro electric scheme. Thats always the challenge. And the reality about, you know, the question is when things go wrong, who can manage the system in this crisis . What weve seen is the societies want more local control. So were seeing more community, what we saw is the lack of trust than the failure of previous agreements, even though the most basic thing was we live in this. They were low trust. I think we have low Trust Fund too. So. But i think, i think if we, if we, if we fail to think about the fact that every trust is only local, when we come very local society, we wouldnt have all the benefits of progress but have come from being able to trust. So i think to thought you have to work on more Self Sufficiency and more cooperation. I dont think its an either or i think its im, can i ask you the last question for the most Part Weve been talking about the quality of energy. The force is derived from, but there is also an issue of the Quantity Energy Demand is projected to increase dramatically can be realistically address the issue of climate change without thinking about how much energy weakens. I think we have to attend the demand fight. Like you said, one of the Supply Side, the system has pieces. We have to think the fact that the ways in which were using energy is changing and whos using an engine changing. I think we have to stop thinking of renewables versus gas versus the future. Manage is going to be more diverse on the Supply Side. You said that going to be very different as well. The Situation Flow clear, very different. And what weve got to do with weve got to move away from this mentality that we know whats best for people. That locally clean is good, but its globally dirty and im going to have to connect these dont between global and local between those that happened. Those that dont have and between clean, affordable and job. What that just means, weve got to move away from this linea and narrow Mindset And Work and integration and cooperation. And the only way to do that is communities because they persist in government alone, cant do it. The community takes a whole community to change the entire energy as well. And non linear thinking is the hardest challenge for humanity in my opinion. But we have to leave it there. Thank you very much for talking to us. Has been great pleasure. Its been a pleasure to be here and thank you for the conversation. Think it well, and thank you for watching. I hope to see you again next week on the worlds apart from me, the me ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality . In a world transformed what will make you feel safer . Type relation, community. Are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere . Which direction . What is true . What is faith . In the world corrupted, you need to defend the join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. Ah, in the moon, the the headlines from the week just gone, mass rallies and statues toppled canadian vents fury. The discovery of the remains of more than a 1000 children, its former and digits. 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