A fascinating subject. Thank you very much for finding the time. Thanks for hosting me. Now, i have to say that harvard and extra terrestrial life is not the most common combination of words. And i know that you gave many years to studying conventional cosmic stuff like a black hole than the 1st stars i one day. Do you think you would ever have made it to harvard or even have made it in the field . Were extra terrestrials, youre a regional scientific instruments. While its not obvious, but then for me, science is our wonder about the universe. Im falling my child with curiosity, all the labels that they had acquired over the years and department chair, director of 2 centers that all of these are quite unimportant compared to our attempt to understand the world. And i pretty much operate this if i was a kid on the farm where i was born and trying to figure out what the universe is about. And then i agree with you that there are some subjects that are to boom and the same community does not regard this mainstream. And i worked on some of those over the years. Not necessarily related to accept the restaurants i worked on the 1st stars when it was most very popular. I worked on imaging black horse when it was most popular derby additional wave astrophysics, which is now one of the major frontiers in us are physics was really early on. And so im used to that situation. But if i were a young scholar, i would worry about my job prospects, and that is definitely a chilling experience to witness the pushback, but senior people have towards thinking outside the box. I think the biggest problem with that is that the terrorists, young people from innovating from taking risks. Well, i know that the, your current book came out just there earlier this year and geared primarily towards the general audience. Its a big hit among lay stargazers like myself. And i think one of the main reason for success is that unlike the santa fe community, most of us actually fascinated by the idea that we may not be alone in, in the universe. And youre actually argued that this whole, this fascination has a distance statistical probability given how many earth systems like ours exist, is that right . Right. In fact, that humans tend to think that we are especially unique and privileged. And we are born into this world, like actors put on a stage and we dont know what the plays about, but we can study the universe. We see that the stage is huge. Its 10 to the power 26 times bigger than our body, where suddenly not at the center of it like our historical, the ancient greek philosophy are used to argue. And then moreover, the play has been going on for 13800000000 years. And so we came only at the end, we are the player definitely not about us. So lets try and find out if there are other actors out there. And maybe they had the better idea about the play. And we now know that about half of the stars that look like the Sun Hebert planted the size of the earth roughly at the same separation. And if you arrange for similar circumstances, you might as well get similar outcomes like technological civilization of the type that we are. And in fact, most of the stars formed so fierce before the sun. And so if they had to come to logic, i simulate visions around them, they pre baited us and then they were able to send a lot of equipment into space that we can search for just like we sent the voyager, one borgia to know brysons. And i call that space archaeology. Now, before we go to the Base Archeologist the term ed. What do you think the probability of a face to face . So to sol, intelligence to intelligent contact is that likely . I think most likely is that we will find the equipment floating through space that was sent by an advanced civilization. Its the experience will be similar to walking on the beach. Most of the time you see rocks or seashells that were produced naturally, but every now and then you encounter a Plastic Bottle and that gives you an important message even if its not functional. It says that the civilization is out there. And most of the equipment that we will find will not be operational because those civilization so dead by now those that sent it. But then it will give us a very important lesson about the history of things that were like us in the past. And then, you know, i think that we are probably not special unique. They used to be many more like us in the past. Theyre just like the number of ends on the sidewalk. And nobody paid special attention to each and every and when walking on the street. And thats why nobody cares about us. We need to look out and search for them. Now, one of the main contentions of your book is that in 2017, we were actually approached by a large object, an object like this, the size of a Football Field with somewhat a typical patterns of speed, live reflection. And you argue that it may actually be of artificial origin, tells about that right . In october 2017. The 1st object from outside the solar system was spotted near earth by a telescope in hawaii. And it was given the name on more and more, which means the scouting the hawaiian language. At 1st, astronomers assumed that it must be a rock of the type that we have seen in the solar system. Either an asteroid, the bare rock or comments and rock that is covered with ice that gets evaporated when it comes close to the sun. The only problem is that when we looked at it, it didnt have any commentary tail. There was no variation of Gas Or Dust around it at the very tight limit. And then if it was tumbling and reflecting sunlight, the amount of light that the reflected changed by a factor of thin. And that implied a very extreme shape. Most likely pancake like a flat shape, which is quite unusual for these asteroids or comments that we usually see. And then the exhibited an excess push away from the sun that declined inversely with distance squared. And that cannot be explained by the Rocket Effect from operating gases because we havent seen anything any should have lost about the 10th of its massy beach where to be pushed by evaporation. So the only explanation that i could think of was reflection of sunlight is pushing it. And for that the object needed to be very thin. Sort of like a sale on the boat except being pushed by reflecting light. Its called the light sale. And if it turns out in september of 2020 last year, there was another object discovered that exhibited an excess push from the sun as a result of reflecting sunlight and had no home at 32. 00. It was discovered by the same telescope, but their strong immerse realized, oh, it is a Rocket Booster that was launched the 966. 00 in the lunar land, their mission. And we know that it had very seen waters. And thats why i had a lot of area for each mass and it could have been pushed through reflecting sunlight. We know that he felt the official because we produced it. The question is, who produced on . Were more just to clarify. Youre not saying this is the sort of Spaceship Passing by because its still just low to be or functionally traveling. As far as i understood it, you believe that this is, this may be some sort of space guide. Its most likely space, Trash Or Equipment that is not functional anymore, or it could be a layer of something bigger that was ripped apart. The point is that nature doesnt make very thin solid objects of the stipend. Thats why i suggested that maybe its artificial. And of course the best way to tell is to take a photograph. They say a picture is worth a 1000 words. In my case, a picture is worth 66000 was the number of words in my book. Extraterrestrial, i will need to write this book if we had the photograph and we can get a photograph on a future object that will be discovered early enough only to approach to us. We can send a spacecraft with a camera that will take a close up photo by intersect in its trajectory. And weve done that with the mission of cyrus rex. That got very close to the Asteroid Ben and actually landed on it and took a piece of it. Theres some material that it will bring back to our thing. 2023. So just imagine seeing an artificial object that looks like a piece of equipment doesnt look like a rock and we, we land on it. So as we know from living on earth, garbage always comes in huge quantities. How common and side things like this come many years we have to, you know, put together a probe like yours you just described. Yeah. So in fact, when i go to the kitchen and i find an and i get alarm because they know there must be many more and out there. And then you can estimate, given the fact that we service this guy for a few years and found one such object of the size of the Football Field, you can estimate how many objects one would expect per Unit Volume such that we would see one of them every few years within the orbit, the earth around the sun. And it turns out that if they move on random trajectories, if you have objects moving in all directions that without any sense of purpose, then there should be a quadrillion such hope. Its right now within the solar system, a lot of them just like and seen a kitchen. If on the other hand, the object had a purpose, to visit the inner region of the solar system and check what is going on there. The habitable zone around the sun, then you need much fewer objects. And so we dont really know this, that the sticks until we find more of the same. And the worst thing we can do is just say its a rock, its always rocks. Its never artificial, never aliens, therefore, business a seizure thats the worst thing we can do. The best thing we can do is find more objects of the same and learn more about them. Now you said that they are, they are the 1st thing we can do to sort of discarded as unimportant and yet this is seems to be the predominant scientific attributes for now. You mentioned before that you faced a lot of pushback from your fellow colleagues. Even stating that as a high processes let alone investigating it any further, what do you think is behind this resistance . Well, most scientists, like most people prefer to stay in their Comfort Zone and continue to believe that then everything they find the should line up with what they already know. In addition, the resistance to discussing in because of unsubstantiated reports on an identified flying objects that do not stand up to the scrutiny of science. There are these stories that are science fiction. And so a lot of scientists worried about their image and therefore keep a distance from any discussion on exit the restoral. Intelligence with technology in my mind, it should be part of the mainstream of science because the public is fascinated by instruments to answer the question, are we the smartest kid on the block . You know, if we close the curtains on the windows and say we dont have neighbors and we are the smartest in the world. It wouldnt change the fact whether we have neighbors or not. It would be just like the philosophers that refused to look through the telescope. Arguing that this sun moves around the earth, they knew that. And its the biggest mistake. One can make us assigned this size, is guided by evidence. Its a dialogue which nature we learn from nature and every now and then there are facts. The do not line up with what we expected. And we should embrace that. We should be excited about it because we can learn something new. Absolutely. Well, lets take a pause in our own dialogue right now because we have to get very short break. But we will be back in just a few moments. The me join me every Alex Salmon Show and ill be speaking to get us in the world, the politic Sport Business and show business. Ill see you then me the the news for me i welcome back to world the park with abby low astrophysicists at harvard. Also, extra terrestrials the 1st Sign of intelligent life beyond earth. Now enough to load before the break, you mentioned the pushback that you are getting from your fellow colleagues. And it reminds me of all those discussions about the existence of god, which cannot be proven. And which cannot be disproven, thats why its a question of faith and not of science, but in this case is actually different because those things can be observed. They can be analyzed, they simply dont. They are a current framework. And speaking about this framework, how good are we at this point at making the distinction between its no logical inventions and naturally occurring phenomena, especially as such, huge called make distances. Well, as i mentioned, it should be straightforward. If we can get the photograph of an interest that our object that approaches us the close up photograph, we definitely tell us the difference between iraq and technological equipment. If we always say it must be rocks and we never take that photograph. We resemble a caveman that is used to playing with rocks and when presented with a Cell Phone. The caveman will declare that the Cell Phone is just the shiny rock because that fits the experience of the caveman. However, i do think that we are sufficiently advanced right now in the 21st century to recognize as the difference between Equipment And Iraq and. And moreover, there is this potential of finding technology that these representing our future. Just imagine that we get the piece of equipment that is far more sophisticated, the technologies we currently possess and bring, bring it to earth. It could carry a huge financial benefit there to anyone that develops it. Well, that could be pretty dangerous to now, if they, whoever they are, have this amazing technology to reach us and havent made a decision to introduce themselves so far. What does it tell you about who they are . Right, so during the pandemic, i came up with a social distancing at the cosmic scale. Basically you can imagine in advance immunization that decides not to get in contact with lesser civilizations, because that would be great. Its quality of life. And that doesnt mean that we cannot learn about them because they must be supposed some trash into space. And just like investigative journalists of go through the trash cans of celebrities in hollywood, we can figure out their lifestyle from the trash they throw into space. Now, there is the fermi paradox that asks where hes, everybody you know, 70 years ago and reconfirming to mistress. This was wondering if there are technological visions out there. Why dont we see them and what most likely they havent a short lifespan is that the college goes to College Vision because of self inflicted wounds. They dont last for more than a few centuries. Thats a reasonable assumption, or they dont care about us. You know, we are not particularly interesting for them and we as the civilization do not necessarily look very impressive from the outside. We are not particularly intelligent. If you read the morning, lose waste a lot of resources on fighting each other, trying to feel superior relative to each other. Thats not a sign off it. Well Creation Dr. You, you compare us to suggest that maybe as an interesting to them as on our, to many of us. But i have to point out that there are many people among us who take great interest in, in fact, in fact, many great Thinkers Practice and to ology Charles Darwin was one of them and depended go and recently has confirmed and numerous. And regular sightings of what they call an identified area phenomena. I wonder what do you make of it . Can we add an interesting as we may seem to you . Do you boy exclude the possibility of was sparking some interest in higher civilizations . No, i dont exclude that, then i do think that evidence should guide us rather than prejudice. There is a tendency of arguing about the subject rather than paying attention to evidence. Now, the Pentagon Report will release some data, but it will not release all the data that he has. And, and i think the bottom line is that there are some objects whose nature is not fully understood, then that the real and my take on it is that we should then follow on these reports with the same experiment. Basically deploy the best cameras that we have on whitefield telescope, the monitor, the sky in the same locations, and collect open data and clear up the full, you know, the purpose of science is not to stand to the side as a spectator, but rather clarified the answer to questions that the public cares about, and here is one of them. There are 3 possibilities. Either these objects are natural, produced by nature, or they are terrestrial, produced by humans, or they are extra terrestrial. And we would find the answer by getting more data on such objects, sciences about reproducibility of reserves. So we should just do an experiment scientifically with open data, reproduce the finding, if possible, and get a better assessment as to the nature of these objects. Let me ask you about this 2nd Opportunity Possibility of objects being of terrestrial origin. From what i understand, i mean there have been some leaks from that highly anticipated pants are going report the irregular side things of those phenomena have been recorded since the mid 1950. Then they primarily happen around the military or technological facilities. As assisted by training. What do you think the probabilities of other countries be russia, china, or have somebody else inventing technology that would be on and then to viable to the americans at that point of time, back in the, in the fiftys and on the words . Well, i think its unlikely because we have a very good assessment before the humans are capable for the limits of our technologies are quite well known. And you know, if this is a phenomenon, if these objects would behave slightly better than state of the art, the american technology, i would say thats quite likely and possible. But if they behave in ways that far supercede american technology, you would find the signatures of those technologies in other places. For example, the commercial market, because they would offer a great commercial financial benefits to those who possessed them. You would find them in the battlefields. The location of these reports, presumably, origin, is from the fact that thats where our most patrolling activities and Monitoring Game by military personnel near these bases. And the question is whether its a phenomenon that these are more global or cursing other geographical locations. And thats why im saying we should have open data. The sky is not classified. There is no ban on looking at the sky, right . So we can have a st. Difficult experiment, not to leave it to the, to be the job of government to figure out the nature of these objects. But rather scientists and this really clear up the fog. And i think we give more credence to evidence base knowledge, which is the foundation of science. But theyre doing that without government would also be quite difficult. First of all, because much of that information is classified and 2nd, as you rode before it would require a major investment to look for evidence of the story. Now, if you think about it, and if we consider how much we spend on the weapons, for example, diverting even the task of it is based exploration. Hed be enough and it may actually discrete and decrease the necessity of bending so much on weapons because i would suppose Nothing Underscore is our common humanity more than searching for our cosmic neighbors when do things right. So 1st i would like to refer to this question in the context of science. You know, were searching for the nature of dark matter in the universe. We dont know what most of the Method Universe is made off. It contains 5 times more mass per Unit Volume. Then all the in our method then that we are made off and we dont know what it is. And weve been investing hundreds of millions of dollars to figure out the nature of dark matter looking for different types of particles. And my point is, the nature of dark matter. We have a little impact on the daily lives of people. If we do find evidence for neighbors that are smarter than we are, if we realize that we are not the smartest kid on the block, that will have huge impact on society. It will change our perspective about our lives. Are placing the universe, our aspirations for space, and then therefore we should invest at least as much as we do in the search for dark matter, or the search for Reputation Or Wave sources. Other things that are at the frontier of science right now. And not pushing to the sidelines because then its a self fulfilling prophecy. If youre not searching for wonderful things, you will never discover them right now. The funding for the search for technology because signatures of other civilizations is more than a 1000 times smaller than the funding in other frontiers of science. And that should not be the case. It should be part of the mainstream, so thats in the context of science. And then you can also bring it to the context of unidentified flying objects. As part of that, the conversation. This is the subject of interest, the public. Lets clear up las collect, same data that is open to everyone. That is not a matter of national security is not around necessarily just military facilities, and its a subject that can be examined scientifically. You mentioned a moment ago that didnt have discovery like this would have a major impact on human society, but arent you concerned . It could also be utilized in a way to increase our capacity to harm or kill each other as has often happened in the history of technology may be safer and not to look that way. Well, thats a very good question and im an optimist. I do believe in good by the fair human nature and i, i am hopeful that them we will cooperate as the result of realizing that we are not alone rather than society getting into the turmoil and kill sim. Thats my hope that we will all realize that we are members of the same team, the human species, and there are others out there. And then it doesnt make sense for us to fight each other. To engage in that rivalry among nations said to try and feel superior relative to other people. All of this is nonsense given the big picture. And i would hope that the realizing but we are not alone. We give us kick in the right direction and you know, when my daughters were young, they were at home and they tended to think that theyre at the center of the world and that the smartest. But when we brought them to the kindergarten, they got a better perspective. And of course they would have preferred to stay at home and maintain the illusion of the mothers. But if we do realize that theyre smarter beings out there, we could learn from them. We could also learn from their mistakes, if they do not preserve the climate on their planet, and as a result, they perished. Then we can do better and avoid a similar fate. Well, this is a fascinating subject of their love. Thank you very much for being with us today. All the best with your future endeavors. Thank you so much for husband and thank you for watching hope to hear again next week on the worlds apart from me. The me i me and i make no certainly no borders and the blind to nationalities as emerge. We dont have authority, we dont, the whole world needs to take action and be ready. People judge. 2 crisis we can do better, we should be better. Everyone is contributing each in their own way, but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. 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