Blinken is going to be his secretary of state in january. Of course i know tony blinken, i also know very well sullivan, who is going to be the National Security advisor because i work with someone i was in the government, theyre both very, very sensible, knowledgeable people with a great deal of international experience. So i think its a, its a very good side. Tony monken always, they supported wars in syria, libya, afghanistan, and iraq. Did you send this book . Because i dont know if this isnt a policy recommendation book about afghanistan, i dont know what it is. We sent this to move might bump a 0 and tony blinken. Oh i havent. I havent sent the book to either of them, but attorney blinken is quite familiar with my views and even more familiar with my views is jake solvent because he was working directly for secretary of state Hillary Clinton, when i was in the state department and we worked together on this quite a bit. So they, they know very well that i was a strong advocate of a political settlement to the u. S. Troop withdrawal from the very beginning. For me, there of course, doesnt mean i agree with you, expect a job in the new administration is not up to me waiting to hear if anyone is interested in my doing it. Because when you say that the you want a withdrawal, perhaps a phased withdrawal, even joe biden, very quick to say that trump has been wrong to withdraw troops from afghanistan, and that joe biden cited the erroneous reports apparently of russian bounties. On a u. S. Troops heads very different to the context in your new book is reports uncorroborated, i dont know what if any troops there may be behind them . I think what biden has said is just a repetition of long term or long time u. S. Policy about money to have a counterterrorism presence in afghanistan. But once he examines the current situation, he will see that there is a choice between maintaining the agreement with the taleban and keeping those troops there. So i think when he realized when you evaluates everything, if there is reasonable progress in the negotiations and support for it from the regional countries including russia, then im sure that he will go ahead with a troop withdrawal. I would assume that he will advocate the same thing 20 that he did in 2000 because he did support the, the original war famously, joe joe biden. Well, they have been rocket attacks scores injured or dead in kabul in just the past few days. A horrific inquiry in australia of showing the torture and killing by australias Defense Forces of farmers and prisoners and civilians. As we just, i know the book starts with the ancient afghanistan. Remind us why the u. S. And u. K. Funded what would become those who facilitated al qaeda who sent planes to destroy the World Trade Center in new york, let alone fire them at the pentagon effectively. Well, thats, that is a false conspiracy theory. The u. S. And the u. K. Did not fund those who protected al qaeda was founded in pakistan in 1988. And perhaps you could see it grew out of the effort by the u. S. Boxed on saudi arabia and other. Whats your host of countries to support the Afghan Resistance to the soviet invasion of afghanistan. But it was not, it was part of it through out of, lets say, the saudi or arab contribution to it. But it only truly evolved into its current form somewhat later in the late 1990 s. When after Osama Bin Laden had moved back to afghanistan from she death. The people who watch our interview about of course he was a given to us. We had to fundraise though, in the us for and he was known as the mentor of azzam, of iran. Yes, he was, he was given him a visa to come and not raise funds supposedly for the afghan, which i had. That was a mistake at the time. Although his is, its interesting and it the algerian of the a notch was married to a dualisms daughter planes. And actually Abdullah Azzam and the sound bin laden had split. And that of laws i was opposed to the emphasis of all right, on attacking the far enemy, you say in the book that soviet withdrawal from afghanistan by gorbachev had less to do with allowing is the mrs. To bring the fray to whatever he was more about desiring dito aunt. Yes. Well, gorbachev really changed the way say the priorities of soviet foreign policy. And he thought that internal reform was the most pressing priority. And that for that he needed a Good Relationship with the west, and that is what he, what he tried to pursue. And by one surprising thing we have maybe just some will be the right of james baker. Perhaps facilitating what we now know is war lords by withdrawing aid as part of the negative symmetry that occurred after the soviet withdrawal. Well that was yes, part of the way that the did you need the soviet union, which drew from afghanistan under the accords that were cited geneva, 1988 and one president reagan saw the text he didnt like. The fact that aid to the judge did was to start before the soviets withdrew. So the us policy was that it wouldnt stop aid to the ridge on a day until the other side, the soviet union, and that russia stopped a coup the government in kabul or not is what they agreed on in the fall of 9091. 00, which of course led to the collapse of the government, one of the important lessons for today is that the government in kabul did not fall with the soviet troops withdrew, but it did fall when, as it was, its funding was withdrawn. So the most important thing for maintaining stability in afghanistan today is not the u. S. Troops, but making sure that the International Funding for the stateless varity force to yeah, i want to explore the funding in a moment. Just tell me how u. S. Tapped by region holbrooke to be a u. S. Special advisor on afghanistan in the end. A mention that of course he was one of the architects arguably of the war in yugoslavia where of course is the mists came to fight the sobs and then went into afghanistan. Thats when i met him. In the end, 1905, i was directing a project at the council on Foreign Relations about what we called the the south balkans. And i thank you to whole brooks. I actually met Slobodan Milosevic our visits of serbia in 1905. And i also met the leaders of the cause of our albanians, a message only as on both sides. And i was in touch with holbrooke throughout occluding during the word caution and 1999. And so we had, we became friends at that time. And thats really what led to his death, his drafting me for this position, just think he was aware, am i wrong in there . Actually, his involvement in yugoslavia helped create the kind of islamism that led to the 911 attacks. I think it never occurred to him and never occurred to me because its untrue. So there were no islam as fighters, his opponent Osama Bin Laden in the yugoslav war, fighting on the side of the of the european interests as it were. Yes, there were some, but that was not a cause of of the rise of islam isnt. That was a result of that. And of course, those people have very little of no influence at bosnia today. Ok, but of course its kind of strange. I suppose. If people watching in yugoslavia the worst massacre in europe in reasons im stubborn. Each a whole rig a very controversial figure. Do you have to discuss that . Well, course that was a massacre carried out by Bosnian Serbs against against so it the defenseless muslims, the separate needs. And we have discussed it in particular because of mutual friend david rohde, who was a reporter at the time, was kidnapped and held captive by the Bosnian Serbs for quite some time that holbrooke had to use quite a bit of diplomatic effort to get him released. And then david rohde was kidnapped by the taliban, while i was working with holbrooke and we had to make quite an effort to get released by the taliban. Including going to see the king of saudi arabia to discuss it with him. You come when i mean all rick said is on the record i was in tears saying i was told to sacrifice throbber nature. I suppose what he means by that is that the use u. S. And u. N. Forces were not did not intervene against the massacres and separates it. Carried out by the Bosnian Serbs. I mean how we see things and cause of our my bad today. But in this welcome in afghanistan, and you criticized obamas emphasis on Counter Terror at the expense of Civil Society building. Just to explain a bit about that because i mean, how many cars i, whos been on this show has alleged that actually the United States under obama was facilitating alqaeda weaponry movements in afghanistan. And that is the former leader of afghanistan telling us that well, i know how mature is i really well, weve been friends for a long time, but i felt that in recent years he has believed some conspiracy theories it because things didnt go his way. And i was one of them that was not sure now because there are always oriental list arguments of why certain people holes become conspiracy theorists and so on and so on. I think even in this book, and you do point to why it would be normal and to be expected. The people in the global south, middle in afghanistan would have this theory that the u. S. Has always funded al qaeda and then learn isis in more recent times. Given what it feels like on the ground in afghanistan from the provinces to the cities. But i dont know if i call the ideas about conspiracy theories, orientalist isaacs, no country in the world is as it has as many conspiracy theorists right now as the United States. We are suffering a great deal from that. So its not, its not something that is unique to afghanistan or the global south. You know, that 80 percent of the republicans in the United States believe that the president ial election was so all of, of course, when people are powerless and unable to control votes and things dont seem to make sense. They try to come up with serious records, which they do make sense. And often the way that they seem to make sense as to posit that there actually is some secret power that is controlling everything for malign ends. But unfortunately the world is much more chaotic. So that, well, in fairness to our current president , and i know the book ends before the peace deal, he did succeed in a peace signing deal. Don trump, between the taliban in the Afghan Government, i support that agreement. However, it is not yet a peace agreement. Its an agreement about withdrawal of u. S. Forces, which also calls for peace negotiations between the Afghan Government and the taliban leading to a cease fire. Those have barely started and i, i do not anticipate that the Biden Administration will, will, the policy will be much different from that. I think the by the administration will also support the Peace Process though reading your book, this was a, just a big change. I mean, you yourself say that when you, you called holbrookes policy of covert destabilization of afghanistan. Crazy. And i mean that was going on through clinton bush, obama trump as beam the savior hasnt. Well holbrookes what i called crazy was not what you are referring to, which is which is a bunch of different policies which. d you are referring to as the destabilization of afghanistan, which some of them had better say that was not their intention. But what i just said, it was crazy for holbrooke to think that he could effectively improve c. Performance of the government of afghanistan by promoting electoral competition against president public karzai. Holbrooke, for instance, a very much agreed with my analysis of the drug policy and he led the effort to stop a crop eradication and move our drug policy efforts to other alternative livelihoods and interdiction of traffickers instead. Funny all, some of them more from dr. Bonnet ruben, after this short break join me everything on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business. Im show business. Ill see you then now for the postmortem of the 2 Major Political parties change to this election cycle, joe biden maintained an already weakened and divided democratic coalition. Is there such a thing as trump is . Did he change the g. O. P. Or did the g. O. P. Change . Welcome back. Im still here with dr. Bonnet rubin, former Senior Advisor to the u. S. , special representative for afghanistan and pakistan and author of a new book. Afghanistan, what Everyone Needs to know. People all around the world are affected by the opium turns into heroin on their streets. And your book seems to just not down one policy on after another, as a doomed to failure. The reason for that is that all of those policies are taking place within the current global regime or narcotics which is to treat narcotics, addiction and so on. As, as criminal, rather than as a medical problem. And the result is that the medical problems people have with addiction get charged to a massive criminal syndicates sort of be treated and create more problems than they solve. Well, not sure if you get a job in the, in any Biden Administration, thats going to go down. Well, joe biden is an architect of the war on drugs which let alone what you itemize is a failure in afghanistan. And has completely the opposite of what you just, i think youll find that people are capable of learning from experience if, if aid is now a subject here in britain, because we may be cutting it because of coronavirus. Your remarks, a university, a colleague says 2 thirds of foreign aid is not going through the Afghanistan Government and that reduces effectiveness and has quote adverse implications for building state capacity. Normally we get the accusation that, oh, you know, if you give the money to the Afghan Government, it will lead to grow in your book. No, that isnt the case. The monies that give it to afghans to spend that money on afghans. Theres no way to spend out about it money without generating corruption, because its, you know, afghanistans a very poor country. We were spending more than the g. D. P. Of afghanistan in afghanistan. The problem is, of course, if you send the money to the government such as that theres a problem of corruption. The government also has a very poor record of what is known as budget execution. That isnt being able to use the money to implement programs. A lot of it sits there and years rather than being stolen or used. And thats why aid providers go outside the system. But theres just as much corruption in the aid that goes outside the system as there is in the aid that goes inside the system. While aid organizations on the Afghan Government will refute what you just said, that in this book you say that u. S. Policy and cash effectively enabled the how conny network, which you might have to explain what that is. How did, how did the aid money end up helping the militant movement that obviously threatens the lives of men, women and children in afghanistan and beyond . Well, i am not sure what you are referring to in the book. The Economy Network is a part of the taleban, as i said, when you spend that much money is such a poor country, there is always a great deal of leakage. And there was, there is corruption in the Afghan Government. And there is also ways that the taliban and others were able to tax the movement of goods along the highways and support himself in this book, one of your coauthors doctrine to a new guitars, he says that the taliban really did not engaging in global jihad and in fact, the 1st time ever was when the taliban began to support socalled rebel groups in syria to overthrow assad backed, of course, by the british and american governments is a kind of echo of the backing of the mujahideen against the soviets. The taliban did not formally support anyone in syria. They had their hands quite full on afghanistan. There are some individuals who want to fight there, but most of the foreign fighters who want to fight in syria were not survive gassed. And most of the foreign fighters from afghanistan in syria actually are on the government side because iran recruited a large numbers of afghan shia to form a coalition called sutton. My unit, which is fighting on the side of president assad. So, but it is true very important. It was part of my argument favor a political settlement, not the taleban. While the accepted aid for global jihad is say, themselves never engaged in global jihad or on all their activities have been in afghanistan itself. Yeah, because were hearing about the, i mean, youre azerbaijan going for going to geisha, is that Syrian Rebels are coming across to support the turkish infiltration in the nagorno. Karabakh trump though, drew down, arguably on the syrian war, he didnt go the way, maybe Hillary Clinton and might have also said, tried to always play down the obama killing of bin laden. Some people might be surprised by one of the lines in your book on afghanistan, the death of bin laden in 2011. Changed little is the case that thats kind of emblematic of media distortions of whats been happening in afghanistan. Changing little on the ground in afghanistan, which is what this book its about. Of course, it was affected things for but outside it was already a decline at the time it appears to be in decline since then as well. Weve recently had the report. Perhaps it did a lot of the successor and one of the watery may have died of Natural Causes popish from very. d recently and it is your understanding the taliban is no friends with al qaeda right now. Well, i think there are very close relations within the 2 groups in other words of titus supports the taliban. And in return for that they get protection, but the top on do not actively support oversight is global jihad. And in fact, alqaeda is no longer the same organization. It was then, as you see, its been quite a long time. Now, since al qaeda has launched, a direct attack against th