But paid communist cuba has fewer than 200. 00. We speak to copresent of cuban covert, 19 Public Health and solidarity about fighting about endemic with internationalism. Oliseh more going on today is going on the ground offensive. Joe biden ever becomes us president. In january, he will preside over a country with the highest prison population in the world, 26 years after he supported a crime bill. The critics claim was responsible for a system of mass incarceration that imprisons more per capita than stalin or mao. , joining me now is the criminal defense lawyer of a 25 years with scoria, 18 k. , and us Justice Systems in his new book, justice on trial, radical solutions for a system at breaking point. Chris dorky pres, welcome, do going underground. A lot of people talking about britain, possibly breaking International Law or over a break said, but your new book is so beautiful and eloquently written about Britains Justice system. How difficult was it even to write a book such a damning account of the judicial system here from the inside . To be honest with you, spend a bit of time last year, just thinking about what a mess weve made of our justice not just in the last few years, but the foot from pakistan. Sure, its, we spend time just, you know, looking people up for no reason trying to criminalize drugs with no good to be want and even put children in prisons, you know, from the police just insane. So we have a completely dysfunctional system and hospital all these years with the only side of the system. I just think its about time the people he asked. I noticed last, you know, we covered the plight of julian assange, the weald famous journalist, the u. N. Special Robert Meltzer has been on this program at the edge and he was being tortured at belmont prison in london. You know, some people, i dont know, some Mainstream Media newspapers call it the holiday camps, these british presence, you begin the book and bell much i do on his or her if it place is terrible to visit. As a visitor, as a lawyer, it takes a long time to get even as a visitor, but to actually be an inmate there, soul destroying. I mean, i went to the special secure unit there and i saw clients in there and you know, describe the conditions in the book. Its a soul is bleak, miserable place, designed to do nothing of the human spirit. And i genuinely dont see anyone has been anytime to which of course, some people say thats what it should be like. But in the book you quote peter clarke, the 29 u. K. Chief prison inspector, claiming comparisons with before the 18th twentys. We are in a situation where some of our prisons are no better in the way they treat people than 200 years ago, or even in some cases 2000 years ago. You know, we particularly at the moment, i mean, i suppose supply yesterday, i suppose or not on friday. They are being locked up for 23 hours a day in a small box. Now if that isnt of course psychological torture designed to do nothing but make people go crazy and actually come out of prison and commit more crimes that i dont know what its all the, some of the defendants actually feel safer in prisons. I describe some of the really deeply damaged individuals that act it for people who are, you know, with the care system as many people in prison, well, who were abused as children about it. As children often end up on streets and homeless and our prisons are full of people like that for whom actually, despite the terrible conditions, prison is somehow better than my family outside. And you mentioned, you know, why enjoy life asked to go to the eat rather be in for as a, the fruit quick minute of practical advice. Before we get to the usa and russia, you trace jurisprudent trials, right . From mayan civilization. Then talk about juries. If anyones against jury trial in britain, you say, dont worry too much of judges interfere too much because juries, they dont like it. No, thats true. But my experience of egoless cheer is that anyone, but theyre not being told what to do by the judge. And if they feel the judge and given the defendant affect crack of the whip, the jury will say, you know, stuff, you just weaken it really going to decide that wed like and were going to find the defendant not guilty, whatever you might think. And of course, thats right, because thats what the system requires. That requires the jurys riggs a verdict, but ive seen it time and again, when judges try and kind of influence the jury and sight and see things about the defendant. And i mean to rock defense counsel, including maybe when in the middle crossexamination did. I see the jury says or say, this isnt fair. And if the jury does think its fair, they will say not guilty us the great thing about the english jury system. Well, over in the United States, everyone is talking about president elect joe biden, and perhaps i mean that lots of disturbing things in your new book, but when it comes to mass incarceration the policy espoused by joe biden, you come up with something called the city of incarceration just explain how you see the u. S. Justice system since joe bidens reforms. Well, so that joe biden has been a huge advocate of mass incarceration. I mean that at the for the truth is that mass incarceration is a great end in the u. S. Psyche. And in the u. S. Criminal Justice System for all sorts of reasons the, that it has prevailed on every single president of the prison population. As i say, i can so about the city of incarceration. 2350000 people in american prisons and it would be the 5th largest city in america. If it were a city that is quite staggering. I mean, when you think about the papers and population, shes over 80000, but thats the largest in western europe. But there are 2350000000 in the truth of it says that they have this huge capitalist corporate structure, a private prison environment, which he massively profits of gold ration. And vested interests, really theres no incentive to change and it cost them hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep c with 35000000. 00 in prison. And you dont want to have the highest rates of guarana murder. Well, i know you say all prisons should be closed. What you say if what you are alleging is true, that the reason things dont change is really because of the kind of corporate low being that goes on with judges. Its a mixture of things. The 1st is that there is a political attachment and its an attachment that the general public often shares to really tough sentences. So locking people up for as long as possible. Thats why you end up with hundreds or thousands of years sentences in some states because people voted for it and people like it. But the other thing is the criminal Justice System, including the prison system and many other elements of the system, is a multi 1000000000. 00 industry and their own vested interests. And they, they invest the lobby of politicians. They have many, many candidates who are supported by corporations which are profiting from the criminal justice process. And american politics often, you know, depends heavily on the lobbying of private interests in order to see it in order to push policy along and that, and that, thats a factor has been easily increasing factor not being too american prisons. Ive seen the employers of the private sector and its a really, really scary thing. Well, of course we have private prisons here spearheaded by labor and tory government. You have no time for Boris Johnsons get tough platform in the election in december. Just tell me though, how have your peers treated this new book of yours . Because given that it wants to abolish prisons, given that it talks about this, these political pressures on justice and paints such a poor picture of justice. Not only in britain in the United States, and i should say, other countries, russia, which will get on to what have you piers said about it. So i think many of my colleagues support the cruelty. Yes. Its that the criminal Justice System is completely broken. But when i was writing the book, i traveled all over the us in particular in the deep south with some of the, you know, the most draconian prison sentences are imposed on some of the worst prison conditions. And the irony of it was, i spoke to judges who are responsible for imposing these very long sentences, or even the Death Penalty and to a man and woman. They all say, we know it doesnt work. We know these very long sentences, a ridiculous, we know this, an 18 year old to prison for the rest of his natural life. For drugs, crime is easy, a moral and counterproductive and ridiculously draining and expensive to the state and destroys whole communities. And my sense of, well, why do you do it then . They say, because if we didnt impose sentences like that, no one would vote for us and we wouldnt have a job. Hes going back to democracy. I mean, joe biden was also playing as well as supporting the crime bill that the war on drugs must be fought central in your book. Not only in the United States. You also talk about what happened in russia and russia came into crimea. Tell me about why drugs are so important to the injustice that you document in the book. As i describe in the book, i think i managed to, i mean i had a lot of research on the book. I managed to find examples of the early human 2000000 years ago, taking psychotropic drugs in the fall with psychotropic plots, and sort of co evolving by using psychotropics as off the development of the human species. And the truth is that people have taken drugs of one kind or nama, since time began, and they always will. And so the problem with criminalizing something which is so fundamental to who we are, all we do is that its never going to work. And when you criminalize it, all you do, if you create the black market, huge opportunities for profit, for all in all as criminals and sob sob, backbite by government. So all corruption in the states, all this just operating is these massive international. No, as a crime, it works better. You have an unregulated losses, organized crime market. What follows is types, what follows the violence, what follows is murder on the streets. But in all of these, i mean, you talk about the London Bridge attacks, you and i so many different elements of jurisprudence. You seem to be alleging by the end of the book that theres a kind of totalitarian conditioning amongst the public about what justice is. And thats why we have the crimes of the Justice System to continue. I think i think its a cultural rather than a totalitarian. Mindset and we in certainly the English Speaking world in britain and the us in particular. Yet there has been these various shong drawing tools, punishment as being the aim of the system. As opposed to what most people might think the point of the system is which he said reduce the amount of crime. And theres a conflict between those 2 things. If the morning punish in a really draconian way, are there in the form of physical chastisement, the Death Penalty, all very loan for tony in prison sentences, the more crime you get, what the public thinks, which is to quote unquote punish criminals. A crackdown is actually the thing that results in more crime. In our society. You say prison does not work every single day of every single prison sentence makes a society poor. Im going to just quickly briefly ask you about the effect of coronavirus on defendant. Maybe your chambers of your colleagues chambers. How worried are you about coronavirus and british presence . Its a really serious problem on 2 fronts. One of coles is that the faction rates in prison, and theyve been these big outbreaks in certain institutions, but more widely. And as i say, our speech spoken supplants just in the last couple of days who are Via Video Conferencing in prison. And they are telling me of the, of the detroit or a Mental Health crisis thats developing because they are being locked up. They are there, the education process in prison is now being closed. They are not out any visitors. And can you imagine that sitting in a cell as they often office flinty 2 or 23 hours a day with nothing to do nowhere to go . No Natural Light and not even allowed to visit us because anybody from the outside world and i spoke to tom friday, he said hed been in this condition for now for since the beginning of march. So its about 8 or 9 months. Even fictive solitary confinement, and so we are, you know, growth of ours is having a massive impact on people in prison. Ok. You know, you, the public can say, well too bad, they deserve it. But those people in prison are going to come out and they get a mule, the streets, either in a month or year or in 10 years. And the more you damage them on the inside, the more damage they will do to us when they come out. Crystal, casey, thank you. After the break with new u. S. Sanctions to come into force against cuba, what example is washington still so afraid of and what lessons can new liberal countries like britain, which has transferred billions into private corporations to learn from a country with fewer than 200. 00 dead. And that spawns competition for cooperation in the fight against coronavirus. All the similar going up about to have going on the ground probe is facing probably his last battle as president. Will he try to over the generals in dubai, his Foreign Policy pick up . Where with the neo cons, again, back in control as well as in the bull, but at least nationally big city, bright lights, huge opportunities and many dangers to the rest of the globe, or theyre going to do. Its also a city where up to 300000. 00 crimes are committed every year goes over the last. When they built the new mosque, its still through the reserve least one Police Officer think every 200 residents in russias capital cost on the list. But the truth is that the will not go with the wind up boysen, the room or the feet of the people who would have the most welcome back. Britain has chosen the new labor, tory path of privatized city, consultancies to help fight coronavirus now has the worst death toll in europe. This while its closest ally, the usa with nearly as high death by capita rate as the u. Ok chooses to wage economic war on the island of cuba. What is washington afraid of that . Cuba has fewer than 200 dead from coated. Joining me from glasgow is dr. Helen u. F. A. , who appears in the new documentary, cuba and coven, 1000 Public Health science and solidarity. Helen, thanks so much for going back on to tell me how a documentary can even be made, let alone the fact that its producing vaccines because everyone in britain is focused on the scandal, had to fight as a company as our greatest hope. How, when we were doing the interviews, the talk, and she, at that point you had one or not registered for Clinical Trials are on its time we showed the documentary that humans now have 3 hands going back scenes on our own. And 2 of them are already wealthy, powerful, and im saying is just incredible when you think, you know that this is a small island nation and thats has its subjects to do 60 years of science. I mean, facts and terrible time of it. You thought it was hit, all right, only for 14 new sanctions are the trumpet. Ministrations that its really incredible. We hope people can venture. You are going to see, you know, how oh yes little says lets say our plant at the ranch. Oh, really saving lives. And livelihoods, you know what americans watching this will say its a dictatorship, all those brigades, the henry review brigades, we saw pictures of in italy trying to save the lives of italians. Theyre actually human trafficked doctors and nurses. He kind of answer that in the documentary, tell me about how that may not be right now. How do you, were really not he to be at was in one of the 50 free medical question. And its not really where the wealthy episode of the Global Pandemic back in late march and, and, and, and, you know, he doesnt see that accusation. He says, all right, i am not this life. I make my own decision that he explained his own journey in relation to you and placed it on me every night and out the cuban medics. While i and you know, i asked if they wanted to govern a system where literally sitting in the attic will someone pile 500 hats ready to record. And you know, he and i want to study these trials and you know, last night this was my opportunity to impress as they were night lights lives could be saved. President bush here it. I dont just ignore you and you know, he did. This is his vocation. And you mean he found that you really felt that he and i hadnt started to help patients. Ok, well if you watch this documentary, maybe youll learn different. But if you look at socalled, Mainstream Media, theyre talking about pfizer, about astra zeneca, both big pharma multinationals and covert and why do you think we dont hear about the drugs mentioned in the documentary and just fins . All these different treatments, let alone the fact that the revolution itself was, was, was key. One of his key objectives as biotech. The key run by a tech set is quite unique. The way it was founded very early on in the dependent of our state on a g. As a field. And it was found in 9081. So that was after. And he said, can i say it, said 5 in the United States and the situation because it is the economy the session its going to make . Is it 100 percent . Thanks. How do and, and all of the different institutions that western science and if it, how, which is in how walker i dont compete, they dont seek to thank fuck it. All that the best production and the whole industry set up to meet Public Health to all the population is a credible ends of friendship between the sector, between the Public Health concepts, hat and the education sector. So its a model that essentially minds based as you think this mainstreaming, this all says that is only the free market, only in terms of profit for competition, how we have efficient outcomes. Now i would say that this, the response is that weve seen in countries around, well, its a kind of thing that much as candidates whose values and the principles on which each side is open eyes. I mean, it has all the time. Why is th