Different wales is already a week into a much stricter to be cloaked and while Northern Ireland is half way through months long restrictionists scotland this week saw the introduction of a 5 regionally based system today we asked to Public Health experts whether these measures contain the virus across the u. K. While the world awaits a vaccine professor harvey burns a former chief medical officer of scotland is a new president of the British Medical Association he is in a unique position to assess and assesses whether the virus can be brought back under control through these tight or Public Health restrictions dr baird and coming out of extra medical school has over 20 Years Experience in Communicable Disease control and infectious Disease Controlling this he worked as a consultant and Communicable Disease control for local authorities arent Public Health and the agency which is though being bullied inspired you kick up ministers for the failure of taste in trees alex will be in conversation with our 2 guests later but 1st your messages and emails on last weeks show last week show on black history martins excited great interest and many responses we hear 1st time in patterson who says all History Matters but i wouldnt pull down any statues i didnt like in marshall says the problem isnt history the problem is to the history is written by or presented on t. V. And all the sudden its official it even says we never got taught Scottish History when i was that skill donald says that is another amazing black lady me to see a cool jamaican scot that massively helped medicine to better hygiene getting the crimean war and every bit the equal to Florence NightingaleRichard Lindsey says excellent show joined by and always the voice of reason when talking about racism really put a lot of people in their place when liam neeson spoke of his experience i had my bind see a lot physical both on and off the field and finally nelson says Jock Thompson i mean that will forever of mind us that we are all of us and of whatever origins of equal value common in the culture of scottish people now over to alex with professor heidi burns and dr by. So how did bob insert we now have a renewed lot of those sorts coming in england with a soft and political in wales and scotland has a a 5 tiered approach weiser so difficult to get there the key messages and Public Health across and get the pandemic under control im a bit see something that i would often say but ive got less sympathy for the politicians. And the damage thats done by a knock down is significant and that governments are going to are having to find a rebalancing and you know i think we own scotland Northern Ireland and so and have all adopted slightly different approaches i think scotland began harsh on lockdown if you like it has that had the highest rates of transmission some time ago and were no beginning to see now working and i think anyone has waited a bit and i think that had to stricter outcome so its about trying to do the best you can and the circumstances youve caught but i just think that england of probably we had a bit too long to be honest whats happening in the north of england is really very significant. Dont have one can you have said that intends a real epidemic control you have to minister that and the level that local level if what you mean by that the thing with a particular well what we need is local experts and we do have them so looking at storage is how all the consultants in Public Health there and then we also have the local Public Health england equivalent in the other nations experts in Communicable Disease control these are the keep players they are the linchpin the commanders in chief and they should be leading their outbreaks locally because they have the network. And the network is with the hospitals the market casting the Environmental Health officers and they know if there is a rising tide if there is quiet if there is calm or if there are concerns and they can respond very dynamically on a day to day hour by hour basis and therefore they should be meeting every day and you know you have it as a command and control center for under locally rather than from far away reach a london or elsewhere. Minus a meal so much difficulty and getting tested and trace operating across these islands i mean weve had this week that slovakia has tested hof the complete in 2 days this is november of the vita started spreading alyea media why isnt that sort of thing possible in the u. K. Youre absolutely right its very frustrating you know if you equate to straight about it because i started talking about this way back in march and were told that availability of the chain is limited were told to the process that said vote of contesting in the end and then i see the stuff and then reporting and so on is difficult. Not convinced that the management of the whole process has been effective and a lot of that management has been outsourced i agree absolutely the local public house is the way to go here right from the beginning and my own university we were offering opportunities for tests in the store but we were told no no the government wanted to do. Particular way and i just dont think its been reached i really dont see how i spoke just last week about proving tasting and up here and i was told that the kind of test that i was suggesting where be a little slow and theres no reason why they shouldnt because other countries as you say are doing so. Its very interesting and its the way out of this case to magic people i know who always symptomatic is carrying and potentially spreading the virus and recently thats the way to control this and get it from you know day quickly but of. The testing local level i mean whats wrong with the these big white house Testing Centers that the the government of a stylish them and violently capable of of doing the the job on a. Scale thats necessary to meet this crisis well its also scattergun approach the scattergun approach is we have said all floodgates open go and get a test well thats not the way to run a outbreak control give you an example of when we dealt with the swine flu pandemic we met with a lot of our tree staff every day and we couldnt work out where the pinch points were and how we would run be operations whereas when youve got if far away at lighthouse labs it is doing it at scale but it is not responsive locally it can never be responsive locally and and then we introduced what you would call it failures of communication the energy of the labs and the touch of a button would have alerted the patient the g. P. The hospital and any other place it needed to inform about the test result of here weve had to set up and create new networks with new permissions to enable all this communications to happen so a number of things have gone wrong if only we had stayed with what we know what we know works best. So how to balance scotland and england for that matter we have originated Public Health control so often factions diseases so why if i can it be that having that source of knowledge over the years we found this particular virus so difficult to get a get a hold off i think in part its due to the fact that this virus is very very and infectious and spreading many whitely mean quitting when we manage to suppress the number of cases. In march im sure many pro and then we got sporadic outbreaks of local Public Health departments where anybody effective. And then we lifted to restraint she was wheeled to not hospitality and so on and it began to spread like wildfire and local Public Health departments became quite overwhelmed you know a lot of the guys i speak to are literally being run ragged by whats happening so we need more extensive controls but critically we need people to and she used to those groups its so frustrating to hear people say oh we didnt care you know this is terrible these rules were just going to go oh were going to have parties were going to have christmas together and civil war in iraq if you meet with people and you do it you do it distance and you dont wear masks and storm you increase significantly in the spread of the virus and its it is basically counts but me attention classes are remotely in the on line at the present moment. Where your students presumably are in the while this is a tragic and serious a condition but presumably your students must of views this as a as a tremendous example of of a living real life example of what it really means to be an. In a pandemic situation are you talking to about the the cases you should go on at the present moment yes i am so i take liberty with deviating from my brief of what subject i was covering to say i will cover that subject but lets cover this right now whilst the iron is hot and weve started doing even tutorials late at night its kind of clock we meet we discuss and we move forward and its really good for the students who are joining us so they are learning in real time and they will grow up to be experts they are also be willed it and concerned and not sure about why weve had so many im bill and messages so when i tell them that in an outbreak you need a commander in chief and the commander in chief does the following and this is how you do it you get all the people around the table would discuss the strategy and then we do it and then my students say how come england or United Kingdom isnt doing it in that manner and i say well when politics and health interfere it becomes difficult so one of us would think that there are the cases of a lot of talk about the students going back home for christmas those students have gone on to campus would that be an example of where you should have a test of all of these people to make sure youre not releasing back into the homes around the country do the right in the world if people who are asymptomatic but infected yeah i think and have basic. Needs it to make a case to anything to is exchangeable to stop strange and continuing that winter and so on i mean it is not that difficult when it is things that we proposed and the order was casting we slaughter from hopes of precedents it was there is evidence that the want of the wood from any. Building in storage if its anywhere in that building is in fear. It was created by research. So why dont you know theres 400. 00 students in a hall of residence just to waste water if you get close and you choose you do you have to go into. The place. That was too difficult. Join us after the break we will look at how the experience thus far can translate into perhaps better practice over the coming months to get this virus under control and well customize into lustily stock which countries have been more successful in tackling coronavirus join us a. Little while away all of you are now with the white house. Had quite. Well. If the phone. Call up top that up. Oh man. One of the. Very. 6 6 welcome back out of continues this interview with dr pipe and cognac my professor heidi burns and asked the question will this really all be over by christmas dr pantani or from x. To university which is to the public a really understanding that the Public Health messages i mean theres been a lot of delivery of them but of the public really taking them to heart thus far. No and it is very disappointing weve had so many mixed messages and i feel now the public also have got messages fatigue and they are consciously or subconsciously switching off we need to have our act together and get simple clear understandable messages not too many layers not too many tears just get the simple straightforward Public Health messages out there and repeat them reinforce that. Holly bonds is generally said and i think accepted that communication at least of policy has been better in scotland the elsewhere certainly and then with perhaps communication be improved follow up to try and drive these messages whole i think so and i think part of the problem in england has been its change tracks so often you know were not going to have lockdown or you know we better have a lot of this kind of saying so people become a bit confused and frustrated is Scottish Parliament is closer to the people the people of scotland have better access to their politicians and thats faith how awful people see their politicians the see the clinical director they see the chief medical officer and so on very regularly explaining things and our National Political director jason leach tree example you know he appears on sports programs that we can dog food in the store and taking peoples questions this kind of thing still there is more excess ability in scotland its difficult policy but as i stated beginning ministers are trying very hard to keep the economy growing as best as possible while suppressing the virus and i have to say that i think im probably right in trying to achieve our concern with are doing it class kind of on supply of so much be outsourced to private companies in terms of testing those many stories of retired Health Professionals volunteering the savva sister to help with their some even getting an answer it while the private company is given will shed loads of money to to do things perhaps not very well i think its outrageous i really do i think that we have an experiment that we have and you know if you save retired people we have volunteers who were. If you do test and trace insurance and yet its going to these private organizations and i think we need to know how much is being spent on that sustain the poor has been spent on this in england and wales Northern Ireland scotland drought its just fumes light and our lack of overall management to the to this very complex process it could be done more efficiently and more effectively i think is often station and they will adopt a county of that. Privatisation of pest and faces happening while many local authorities as was seen from recent weeks feel themselves dreadfully under resourced and terms of the the local Public Health. Its a disaster and its outrageous and so i agree with what senator kerry burns just said because why why do you want to set up a private Testing Laboratory and a private contractor racing service which will never ever work as efficiently as if you had invested in your local n. H. S. Services and systems in both the local authority in the n. H. S. And in Public Health england if we look at least Staggering Amount of money spent 12000000000 pounds that is the equivalent of the and tired budget of all the g. P. S. And Public Health combined now if we had used that money to instead set up systems Contact Tracing systems in local authorities in local Public Health england areas we would have a asset to the nation and a set that can be used 18 months 24 months from today because when we have sporadic outbreaks we will need local of our tree capacity and local outbreak tracing services we wont have the centralized systems in existence then so weve lost an asset to the nation it is a big mistake to have made a dot dot com if you cast your eye worldwide for a 2nd or 2 which of the countries the you feel have had the best record of vast far in getting a grip of this pandemic south korea without a doubt and if you look at the south korean interventions it was early thats the key point early hard fast and strict so there when 1000 early with their control measures now when team hard meaning no half measures and ever strict about enforcement and them and making sure you wore your mask you took Infection Control seriously and now look they sorted out their health and as a result their economy is also sorted out so i i mirrored what harry burns was saying. Which is you sort out the howth and you will sort out the economy in tandem so to tell me as a healthy person they kaname is being trashed i disagree the economy is being trashed because you failed to sort out simple Public Health measures to make both economy and how to run condom to ghana and so honeybunch your. Favorite example from round the world to presently that we could take real lessons from rome and present and have places like south korea and survive and japan and sort of have done very well but interesting places for me are places links to a new zealand where a lot of towns have been very successful interesting me in new zealand its clear that people have been very trustful of their government so this you know in suppressing the virus through lockdowns and these kind of things is one thing but the other thing is having Public Confidence in the process and places like new zealand definitely should not how high a medical doctor 5 carlia without this renewed locked out and then with weve got the 5 tier system of scotland alyea but in wales the pursuit of what the costs suck at but i. Do think that mr clifford and wales are going to have success of 1st minister and getting a grip on the virus for that suck up there are going to have to continue that over the longer period to get the virus under control i think a longer period is also required because wales is not an island within a 9 and and therefore whatever happens in england will translate into wales as well and therefore i personally would like a unified Public Health approach across all the nations it is unfortunate that we have a swan worsham in scotland Northern Ireland. Wales and then in england. Because wales is a very close neighbor of e