Help to educate the world about the realities of coronavirus and its impacts says were already falling off the knifes edge here in britain and he joins me now from london col thanks so much for coming back on as i said 10 days ago you said were falling off the edge of the knife since then Boris Johnson is in active new policies are closing bars at 10 pm instead of 11 satisfied with his response. Yes i think thats very understandable response so predicted by our modeling studies it reflects one of the 3 leaders that the government has access to. Best described i think in terms of changing or reducing the contact rates through specialists and saying look like the rule of. The curve for you the 2nd kind of leader is clearly the population immunity which hopefully will be substantially over mentored by vaccination but the. Something for that but theres a 3rd which is Contact Tracing so when you ask me would i be satisfied with curfew and actual lock downs and social distancing absolutely there is another way you have to do the i have to interrupt you there because johnson has claimed in parliament and his stand that the serco socalled n. H. S. Tests and trace has quote very little or nothing to do with the spread of transmission of corona virus compared to what you were just telling me. Back that it yes. That is a lot for you to say testing and surveillance. Clinical management are all intimately related so. If he meant the testing isnt a way of measuring and measuring things does not change the thing that is being measured them that substantially true but the i think the sort of more pragmatic and natural way of looking at this is testing it isnt an very important tool that enables us to monitor the responses of viral transmission to our interventions now your own independent sage maybe does a long way from a Statistical Analysis of neurons but some of said is it wise to punish poor people with 10000 pound fines for a covert infection because some of said were only as strong as the most vulnerable and if someone is faced with a jail sentence for not being a 10000 pound fine with who has covered and a roof over their head theyre obviously going to go out and infect unwittingly but certainly go out into the community with a covert infection yeah absolutely. I mean common sense would argue that if you had. Money to spend and you wanted to use that money to underwrite isolation of those people who have been in contact with infected people if you want to get on top of the. The current upsurge in new reporting cases they need to support people in isolation if theyre finding it difficult so most people ive spoken to throughout the spectrum are academics to through to politicians appreciate that the only way that were going to really elude or mitigate peak deaths in the secondary wave is to Contact Trace and support people in isolation so there could be many people who just cannot isolate either because they have dependents or they dont have sufficient space in the house so these people need supporting so thats an important aspect of Contact Tracing this is you know i think one of the main messages that know a 3rd lever that the government has yet to pull in order to prevent a 2nd wave of morbidity and mortality is to get out there and empower and enable Public Health teams not just to identify the contacts of infected people but also to monitor them and to help them if theyre having difficulties in that in their self isolation so thats where results they should be closed thats a matter of cause of or a circle any british viewers watching this the 10000 bone vine does stand as the law states at the moment im assuming you dont envy the position of the chief scientific officer of englands a budget balance what did you make of these emails a freedom of information request as revealed to the b. B. C. That anything you can do to call more academic friends down over herd immunity would be greatly appreciated this herd immunity. Concept. It says its never ending since since it was 1st mentioned by Patrick Valens and chris witty you may have to just tell them why is it early munity is not a policy for plague measles mumps yellow fever or all these other diseases for which we have a vaccine. Right its a great question. The the arguments and debates i think have become an usefully polarized and out of the sariel so youre absolutely right i do not and its a patrick vances position more or chris witty. Simply because its the factors that play into the way that an epidemic develops include both social distancing and population immunity and herd immunity so you cannot deny are either as key mechanistic factors that are going to shape the course of the endemic over the over the next few months however the herd immunity become politicized and its now that is into a somewhat added say ariel approach which may be a false dichotomy i think most people do appreciate the pulse dichotomy but from the point of view of the public in the media and the political debates the premise here its either one thing or another we can either go for lock downs and social distancing and pursue a Mitigation Strategy with a suppression at the end of the road or we can. Aspire to accumulating sufficient protective immunity also then as herd immunity such that the us social distancing or lockdown procedures are not necessary i think thats a false dichotomy its a false premise both herd immunity or population meter to at least. Social distance and not down are can work hand in hand one that makes the other work better both make contact tracy. Easier very quickly ask you because were about this week or someone about bunkers and people who are getting away from all this you forget that the serial some Conspiracy Theory is pouncing on your modeling showing 80 percent covert resistance in germany 50 percent of it resistance here what are we to make of the resistance more than youve been doing very briefly. Briefly its an important aspect of the model of his heterogeneity sort of variability in our exposure to our susceptibility to and now theyre ready to transmit the virus most of the Scientific Evidence now points to a substantial edge an 80 or 3 levels its important because it means that we may be in a better position otherwise in terms of being able to control the spread of the virus again through this lever of Contact Tracing much of the advise the government from several months ago discounted or ignored now what is increasingly accepted as a a truth that there is this hatred actually in play and. That by presenting immunity is winning immunity. Is certainly one important so that would be noted susceptibility sort of. Mediated immediately mucosal i mean actually the kind of immunity that would not be registered by positive Antibody Test so were talking about an extended concept of immunity the includes sirrah negative people which could actually be quite a substantial part of the community and its important to quantify thats whats important to understand about proportion its there but probably more important to quantify that because it materially affects the sensitivity of our interventions and then we come back to this knife edge that you introduced at the beginning the very fact were on a knife edge means that we are very very sensitive to purge of patients and interventions and that knife edge is afforded by among other things they had that youve been youre referring to visit golfers to thank you. Now as the threat of covert 19 which disproportionately affects a poor is rising again and Climate Change and use natural disasters like the California Wildfires continue to cause widespread panic what are we supposed to do well the rich the elites the worlds top celebrities have a play a luxury underground bunkers here to tell me about an arguably natural neoliberal response to potential armageddon is the author of bunker building for the end times dr Bradley Garrett whos in Big Bear Lake in california dr Bradley Garrett thanks so much for coming on going on the ground before we even get to the bunkers of the rich and famous im just going to start with what on earth its like in california right now way you are whether youre in a bunker right now because were watching the pictures transmitted all around the world of the wildfire has over the last few weeks have been utterly apocalyptic here its been quite a struggle weve had and just near my house in Big Bear Lake california and weve had a fire burning the eldorado fire and we had ash coating all of our vehicles my partner amanda her dad is on oxygen we had to evacuate him down the mountain but you know this this didnt used to be the fire season and what were hearing from the fire service here in california is that there is no fire season anymore this this is our reality now as a multiple number of courses being prepared for by the rich and famous arguably bill gates can go that in tom cruise they all have one how do you get to writing a book about bunker was when i started this project in 2017 and ive been working with urban explorers prior to this you were sneaking into off limits spaces and some of the spaces that they were sneaking into were old cold war bunkers and as it turns out there is that theres a thriving private industry now where people are buying those bunkers that you know were not used for the fabled mutually assured destruction. And theyre turning them into private subterranean citadels and once they realized that was happening. I knew there was going to be a wealth of knowledge to be gained from following these people and trying to understand what they were preparing for what kind of spaces they were building in and what that means for all of us because obviously. You know its kind of a canary in the coal mine moment if if the wealthy and governments and c. E. O. s people in power are building bunkers for themselves where does that leave the rest of us dr Bradley Garrett ill stop you there more from the author of bunker building for the end times after this break. It was a very nice show from president putin that i could have said no thank you or i could have said thank you and i said ill take it and now its time to introduce my its not special mr dont travel thank you susan very much for the. Name whatever you want to name i mean i dont know how would i come that news thats dishonest telecom that a recorder or an network thats totally dishonest c. N. N. Is says you know 100 percent negative i can reverse the change fast changes so fast sometimes ill say thats going to be a great story be a pretty good report another as good as you. Will see what happened so who knows i always say who knows what well see on the field it will be a success. I max kaiser or for my guide to financial survival this is on a device used by professional scallywags to earn money. Thats. These has flaws are simply not accountable and were just adding more and more to them. Totally destabilize the Global Economy you need to protect yourself and get informed as report. Welcome back im still here with dr bradley got our daughter bunker building for the end i want to get to donald trump actually because in your book you say that theres one of mar a lago built by a serial magnate wrecker serial magnate and that is where he decided to assassinate irans top general because of so they mani who actually fought with us troops against isis. Some kind of something that we should take from that information. Well its no secret that trump is distrustful of the government the very government that he works for so from the beginning i mean your member at the beginning it is a new street and he spent a lot of time in interim tower before moving to the white house obviously when he took the job the president he inherited a number of bunkers including the one under the white house that he hit in during the social unrest not too long ago a lot of lies be other protests. Thats right you know but he he has his own bunkers he has a bunker under mara lago and apparently spent 100000. 00 fixing up that bunker which was apparently derelict when he when he bought that property. And that was where he made the decision to order the assassination and you know this is really unprecedented in American History that a u. S. President would use. You know their their private redoubts to make intense government decisions like that and there was a lot of controversy around whether he. You know had the right under his executive authority to be making those decisions from his his private residence although of course say in your book you do actually mention another president jack kennedy famously wanted to assassinate fidel castro and so many other Global Leaders and you talk about his Nuclear Bunker in florida but i think the theme in this book is is this somehow emblematic of neo liberal individualists of this idea of well things can go wrong but you can also save yourself and prevent other people coming into the bunker should be apocalypse come and then create a new society off to. Well its its a byproduct of neo liberalism on 2 fronts because on the one hand. Having faith in the government to protect you from situations like this is something thats been consistently eroded over many years as you know cuts have been made to Government Programs that will help their programs i mean the only thing that seems to be increasing year after year is is military spending but i think a lot of people have lost faith in the governments ability to take care of them and you see that here in the United States with the distrust around how fema responds to. Response to these sorts of situations but you know it is. Also a neo liberal ideology to think that if the government doesnt have the resources to take care of you that youre going to build a private citadel and essentially take care of yourself and your family or people close to you and that now has morphed into a multibillion dollar private industry where people are selling space in bunkers. And you know its turning into a situation where only the people who are able to buy into those facilities have that sense of security that in other parts of the world the state is able to provide i mean i should say that of course there are no new liberal bunker mentality is true because you mentioned russias 43 Percent Party 15000 people for 30 as is the claim that the russians can put them down here but i dont think most americans may even know you say in this book the department of Homeland Security advisers all households have at least a 3 day supply of nonperishable food and thats now not a jury in the cuban missile crisis yeah thats right the last 2 to stick that i found from my book was that in 20113700000 american self identified as preppers and thats an astounding statistic because it means that there are a lot of people who wouldnt necessarily claim to be preppers and also people who are prepping without knowing theyre prepping i recently had a researcher from Cornell University get in touch with me to say that he had updated those numbers pandemic and it now looks like about 12000000. 00 americans are actively prepping or you know anything from an extinction level event down to you know every day natural disasters wildfires hurricanes blackouts or the possibility of. Infrastructural systems going down you know people are thinking more about how theyre going to be able to. Achieve some kind of selfsufficiency they were able to. Needle them to get through these these difficult periods of sure that level of fear and preparation is really reflected on news me there are good players germany though home to the birthplace of col mox has a bike cos bunker system that you talk about but in democracies in nato nations you talk about luxury bunkers i mean you mention the privatization of these bunkers place what do they have in them depending on where you go people have a different set of motivations and ideologies and methodology that they think are going to get them through the most extravagant bunker that i saw by far was in kansas where a Property Developer developer called larry hall had purchased a Nuclear Missile silo an atlas f. Missile silo this is one of the vertical silos that would have had an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile nuclear tipped inside there now at the end of the cold war they decommissioned it larry hall purchased that from the government for 300000. 00 and then spent 10000000. 00 of his own money turning this into. What i can only describe is a subterranean condominium complex its kind of like an inverted skyscraper theres 15 stories underground half a florist sells for one and a half 1000000 full floor sells for 3000000. 00 and hes got a lot of amenities down there a Rock Climbing Wall a shooting range cinema theres a bar down there and its Swimming Pool with a waterfall you know when i asked him about all the all the luxury that he had built into the bunker he was very clear in telling me this wasnt this wasnt luxury it was about survival because if people are going to go into that bunker for 3 months a year 3 years 5 years. You know you can you can engineer that space technically so that people can survive you can have the food and the resources there. But really what you need is to keep people occupied he said that was actually crucial to survival underground the long way away from the burlington bunker of the ministry of defense as the view broke into them are give away yet what that bunker with built by the u. K. Government. Had to evacuate the capital in the event of a Nuclear Strike and they constructed that for about 300. 00 people they could stay down there for 3 months and. It was an incredible thing i mean it was it was a draining city and i was able to. Move through that city and and see the Radio Broadcasting stations down there and this is al