These 2 extremes so. It would be i think we should expect countries like russia to look roughly the same intensity in 20 years time and its going to take quite a lot to shift russia even to a complete or a terran state that doesnt hold elections rule or to a much more Democratic State where we could genuinely talk about some of the troops and losing power i was drawing of a after the soviet union and i remember very vividly this transition from infuse the absentee anyone if you see as and for democracy to see a lot of cynicism not only among the people but also among the leaders and when it comes to the latter and. It was primarily driven by a realisation and deeply held belief that for the west democracy is not a value its not the goal its not something that they lead by its actually an instrument its in to all of many places and its as theyve i think totally wrong about that. Tell me a little bit more because i dont really see why democracy would be a stick of the west so tell me a little bit more about where that perception comes from well he your book is not very flattering to you after it terry ends but i think youre ultimately confirmed that a deeply held believe that everybody almost everybody uses different kinds of tricks and many play chanst you know you kind of subvert the house and take expression of political will and based on these democracies i do it in certain the way they are relying on laws and regulations to ensure that self interest authoritarian nations may be doing that and what in crew there are ways but ultimately i think the conclusion of your book is that everybody doesnt. No really i mean i dont think thats the conclusion theres a lot of countries on a book which dont really do it or at least do it less and theres a lot of countries in europe in north america that you know manipulates elections instead in ways not enough theres so really United States for example it is true that historically black populations of minority populations a struggle to be able to vote and express their Political Rights and thats still an issue that the United States needs to do today its also true that gerrymandering is a major issue in the u. S. You know kind of politicians trying to choose their voters out of them both just choosing their politicians carving up the electoral map in a very sort of a way that on interest so the United States has more of those problems but is still probably true that donald trump is going to lose the next election and stand down and thats about equally different situation to what we have say in russia recruits in or for example in uganda or president you erema 7 hes been a very long time now i think you would agree that donald trump is a very very unusual candidate as hes allowed to victory came as a major surprise to everybody so hes i think for now a standalone case when it comes to the american politics but up until him. They believe in this part of the world has been and in china for example the chinese have long described them arkan elections as a beauty pageant the feeling was that while they face main change the people in power stay the same and its just. Utter cation or alteration that means the democrats and the republicans but by and large theyve passed the interests are still the same and the policies remain by and large the same. Think thats fairly true i dont know why when you say this part of the well part of the world are you referring to im referring to russia where were at and former soviet union which indeed have a tendency for keeping leaders in power for longer periods of time but that i think that it is a very widespread perception here is that its actually a more honest way of dealing with politics because the change does not always represent the change a thing thats the the massive step or the idea that is behind a lot of this cynicism that you know the faces may change but that. Power still remain the same. But i think it depends what you mean i mean you know which talking about the perception of average citizens in russia thats obviously to some extent you know controlled and shaped by a long period of information pushed by the government in russia just as a matter you know only that that that is not sure i mean that it and i am not interested in possession of the people or even propaganda academically do you think that the thing to change your face is in the United States not made me like excluding donald but this before don child with the change of people in power do you think the powers have actually changed the powers that be the thing they have i mean not noted the strike we know that big money big capital the arms trade the military complex Industrial Complex still survives on one leading to another said there are certain features of us politics that are common but its also true that the u. S. Was able to elect its best black president something that hasnt happened in many countries around the world and certainly not the worlds kind of white states impulse architecture is a mock received the color of their presence in so i think being able to elect leaders of different races and different ethnicities different genders is and good indication of democracy you are asking about change being able to change the phone one color that maybe i know its your majority to another is i think one of the indications of democracy is. Not the only one the other one is being able opposites change your leaders there are indications of democracy where i reviewed the United States down and there we might talk about the ability of the racy to actually tackle inequality and the way in which the 2 party system constrains the ability of more radical forces to come through but i dont think its right to say or make sense to say right now that the situation in the us actually doesnt allow for any kind of change in the way that some authoritarian regimes do until really meaning that it has been you would agree that it would be a end of exaggeration if you apply that statements you any country even in the most autocratic regimes there is always a possibility of change because there is change is 1st and foremost serve though the kid is speaking of which one of the most interesting findings is that authoritarian regimes that hold and manipulate elections trying now to be more stable than those that dont hold any elections at all the fact that they feel the need to say ken is that ultimately at bat or a good thing as far as the moccasins consigning. Yeah i mean one of the things that i think i retain regimes do is they stoke the foundations of their future downfall because one of the things that they do is they encourage people to believe in elections and then when they try to manipulate elections people then become frustrated and sooner or later its ancien between the promise of elections and the failure to hold elections comes into collision and i think thats one of the things you seen recently in better oops where we seen consistent attempts to manipulate elections you know basically until the people became sufficiently fed up with the failure of the promise to be allowed to choose the government then i think a really interesting question for us is you know what does that mean for the long term future and i think you know in countries like delhi reduced set in fact to seem to come together at the same time to getting to loosen president bush in close hold on power those facts as an ultra in many of our 10 states but what youve just picked up is an intelligent tension within the space scenes that does constantly all into question elegy to missy and i think there are a set of facts as that then come into play right is the regime able to deliver Economic Development is it looking like its fulfilling its promises in other areas of elections doesnt lead to maintain a reputation doesnt devoid corruption scandals if you can do one of those things then the popular frustration with the electoral process is probably going to be kept in check when all of those things start to be triggered at the same time thats when the local authority regimes really starts trouble i mean to your head that. If you fix something there is ultimately chance of you making it which is good for those who believe in democracy as you know as a genuine means of arranging Human Affairs as you point out in your writing. Democracy promotion is is a very cash intensive field somewhere between 8 and. 1000000000. 00 a year is here and yet the results seem to be very very superficial youre right in the involved. Were experiencing a real democratic deficit and not only in authoritarian regimes i think you are pretty clear that even in is that only democracy as there is a substantial democratic deficit and a lot of africas going to. Reap sending old window dressing brother down and practicing this this process authentically in their gag my question to you is whether it is a coincidence that we have observed this democratic decline ride over the period when democracy promotion has become such air hot issue both in terms of them by any given the seams and in terms of their rhetorical attention abysses. Well you know i mean i think the ultimate answer to this is that democracy is driven domestically and internationally and weve seen efforts by International Organizations and governments to promote democracy in countries like iraq afghanistan and we see how difficult that it is also mentally it has to be reduced domestically because otherwise International Actors need to be in the country 24. 00 sevenths and make a sustainable so any country in the world thats built a sustainable democracy is due to domestic sometimes of International Help domestically and one of the other things that we need to keep in mind is 10000000000 may sound like a lot but when you compare 10000000000 to the 2 in economies of the countries that were talking about its a tiny drop in the ocean so we have International Governments that are trying to promote democracy but weve really its of the small budgets in processes that are actually controlled domestically and thats why i think we have this mismatch between this great ambition to promote democracy around the world and as you say the kind of limited effects of that ultimately theres only so much International Actors can do ive seen you write recently that this summer a grab that the west is turning its back on democracy promotion is abroad do you think its possible that there was real altoona to chop the issue completely to allow countries like russia like many others around the world to try that hand at this enterprise biden south without giving hardliners inside the country an excuse that you know these people are trying to hurt us through democracy promotion therefore we have to you know be chattel about this do you think theres a chance of the west actually allowing other countries to do it for themselves. Well i think youre putting the question in an unhelpful way frankly i dont really think thats what was going on during the course a number of cases where in particular the u. S. Government has been accused of using democracy promotion as a tool of Foreign Policy and we need to hold them accountable for that Donald Trumps policy and inconsistency between how he treats a venezuelan tacky is embarrassing and unhelpful but is also true that president clintons policy in democracy promotion i mean its very likely you are sidestepping him but hes one of the champions of it. Im not sidestepping anything im answering your question if you stop long enough means once and ill give you an answer what i think we need to recognize is that in many cases the International Community is providing assistance to governments that have asked for a lot of the money that we just talked about is going to governments to help them establish electoral commissions and your training to help them run elections to operate in that way International Actors have to be invited they cant simply offer money to electoral commissions or governments dont want to governments who passed legislation or simply behaved as they kind of Election Observation and in many cases what is happening is the west is funding who can as ations and programs and movements that either supported by the government will there are Civil Society groups that are based in the country consent i would fully agree with you if you would say that what we should see is International Funding for domestic process is Way International regimes do not try and push their own agenda i think thats true but i think it would be wrong to suggest that you know a lot of the countries were talking about is simply been the case that the International Community has come and tried to enjoy being imposed this is that were already going on in most cases in better he says a great example of this International Community really gets engaged when theres already a political crisis you know looking better reeses last few elections will is nothing was said about the elections when there was no public protest this time around everyone speaking about the elections not because the International Community has decided to middle east amount but because theres a mass protest in the streets and that has triggered International Action so i think we just need to complicate that International Process a little bit more while professor cheeseman just as we were getting all worked that we have to take a sure the break and perhaps cool down the to believe that in a few moments states. There are others drowned out. No dairy thinks. We dare to ask. For. A new gold rush is underway and gone up thousands of ill equipped work goes off flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich is a good. Day over those that work children are torn between gold. My family was very poor i thought i was doing my best to get back to see which side will have the strongest appeal. Welcome back to worlds apart that meat cheese man professor of democracy of the university of their manhattan and call there of how to meet an election professor cheeseman imagined a couple of times and i dont know if the present location has read your book or not but he definitely seems to be at tabc book example of a leader who used the actions to strength and hes great power until these year if you watch his recent interviews he seemed to be g. M. You know me blindsided by all the mask problems that followed president ial elections and all the allegations of vote rigging. I wonder if its fair to say that these type of democracy imitation works only actually doesnt. Think we talked about this already i mean i think in my previous you know we talked about the fact. You know hes managed to put off this trick for a number of times in a row but to mentally if you see corruption scandals the failure to deal effectively with a growing perception of economic stagnation a growing sense of a desire for change if you dont have the kind of ability to rotate the political elites within the ruling party up and authoritarian regime will sooner or later going to face a challenge like this in a little over 10 anitas hat and one of the responses has been the question if you see a big uprising in moscow you shut it down enough you might go to get ahead of it the same in tanzania the same in uganda you shut down the airwaves you increase censorship and a lot of spending and its theres a Great Britain lets not put them to the side because theyre using the Law Enforcement forces caught kohima why they have it handed way as well and so i dont understand how we could draw an equivalent between beller where the Security Forces the torturing people and the United Kingdom could you explain how you could possibly join improvements you can have an equivalence ad saying that every country uses its Security Apparatus in a way that suits its Political Goals and i think some of the son of the protestant in the Great Britain aboard this person in pretty shabby handed way thats all im saying its not about the political equivalence but i think the reality people here and its actually you know repeating this is fundamental you are trying to excuse authoritarian practices and human rights abuses and i think its fair to say that d arab leaders and tearing to pieces are crude i review 100 percent im just saying that and he absolutely follows from gimpel that status democracies are also using treats those treats a different but not less manipulative they are less manipulative and i do think i mean the a god given of the book is that these things happen everywhere but not that they happen to the same extent everywhere i do want to go back to the president look i think if you if i may because i think hes a very candid manipulator and. I think a few years ago and youre right about that in the impulse loan. Not to tampering the modes with the for the purpose of actually decreasing the count from i think 90 percent up until. You make it more believable and as funny or obnoxious as that anecdote may be i think it also reflects a deeply how believe that a lot of sins are ultimately not about the will of your people but about presenting. You know a suitable story for the International Community can you only play president lukashenko for maintaining that story yes really. Who would you blame the International Environment that exists that puts democracy promotion. In its rather superficial form above the actual process is on the ground. The International Community is not responsible for that the International Community woul