Against the soviet union go ahead and wash. Well i think its a bit its a little bit of history to say its a cold war yet i mean i think this is all actually nearing frankly end but you know Foreign Countries sort of been historically have realized and though of president ial election years especially candidates you know attack Foreign Countries. And try to stir things up. Especially if theyre in trouble in other ways and i think our current president having difficulty with his response to the virus and also the economy the economic ramifications of course which other countries are also experiencing but in our country. You know of course specially chop his the real action really depends on the economy going well since hes a minority president that has to get a majority the 1st time so i think youre seeing a lot of the lecture. Yes i am here and that things may die down you know after the election season either kill him lose the election and somebody else will command by or will be reelected. To get some sort of agreement with chinese perhaps its hard to say what will happen but certainly this there is rising tensions and hes also attacking the w. H. O. As a child as have the trying to use have too much influence and when its an International Organization its certainly theres a lot of questions that could be asked by the w. H. O. In its response but. Legitimate questions but i think that was probably not the time to do it and now we saw it. Yesterday where they the countries china russia. The European Countries sided against the u. S. And its tomato into the organizations of the day. Is trying to attack that as well to attack china but its offer electoral purposes really you know when he did in it seems to me that a quite a bit of this is it is deflecting away from globalization because what we have seen for the last 35 years is elites in the west the embracing globalization in chinas certainly has benefited from it enormously how many tens hundreds of millions of been people been pulled out of poverty i mean its one of the most extraordinary stories and history here but you know they talked about all the great things of globalization and if you were against that then you were somehow an isolationist or Something Like that and and now they may you see they change the narrative being against china its all chinas well i mean as an american i know how fragile the apparent can medical system is because its driven by profits its not driven by taking care of people so thats one thing is but i mean to kind of reply to what ive been said there you see this is based. Its origins being in domestic politics because it is its the victory always pretty strong i mean i havent seen a lot of things like Something Like this for a very long time and we have to keep in mind we went through 3 and a half years would be useless rushy date folks go ahead in love. So a lot of the kind of vitriol that were seeing is i agree that it is new with regards to china has never been this strong but. From what i know of american politics americans love having a bad guy. And so we had the u. S. S. R. In the eightys we had japan we had axis of evil in the middle east in iraq and afghanistan china is a perfect example of this right now because if were going around the idea of globalization the whole point of globalization right now is that globalization under american edition was another deal that was system that was established and led american led institutions multilateral institutions i. M. F. World and b. T. O. W. H. O. If were talking about the problem we have right now is the globalization were experiencing is that its not an american only dominated american medical was asian anymore its not that the chinese economy has done so it so basti well over the last few decades the fact that the chinese were imperative in their part whereas the imperative in the part of their participation after the 2000 a couple financial crisis and as a means of bailing out not just individual economies but the euro the euro area as well raises a lot of concerns as to this this i known factor and what it means for where we are going and so when it comes to a lot of the things that the chinese are doing because it is not under u. S. Direction or influence and you also have the fact that a lot of traditional American Allies like the big 3 in the year in the euro the euro zone or the british are not following the lead. We as americans this creates a lot of problems and a lot of concerns within the american electorate as well as in particular the american elite you know its really interesting and really you were very gentle and diplomatic in your language i would i dont know that ill say but i think that yeah american hegemony is being threatened and thats what its really all about and its really quite interesting you know im good at it. 1 from you because i wrote i read your article that was in the american conservative screen you have on the one hand an illustration this telling its a. Treaty allies you know you have to start paying for your own defense you know if you know particularly in the bigger area where you america and i watched the al ice she coughed up more money. But then at the same time they there seems to be. This huge pivot to go to to asia here i mean it is very contradictory and winning is absolutely right a lot of American Allies are not only in step and so this is great even more frustration for a political eastley United States go ahead in washington. Yeah i think thats true basically as at just the president we have other senators that are saying well we need more submarines we need more jet fighters in the fight in the east asia sattar and so theyre taking advantage of the kobe crisis to demonize china and of course. You know there was already pointed out that the u. S. Does like to have a hand in here i would only agree with that statement i think the iranians dont realize that because theres an article today the New York Times that saying you know your odds are pretty astute theyre trying to you know call things down in the tensions between the u. S. And iran because they know it is a no actually i think historically you know social Science Research indicates that countries do this because specially with the United States because they know things get heated up and you know action but certainly always saying is that republicans are trying to stake. In this particular case of a crisis we had obama in a domestic crisis what with the Great Recession his chief of staff said never a lot of crisis go to waste and what they did back then was to take advantage of the economic crisis to get. Fairly unrelated thing health care you know obama care bush did it with 911 going after iraq and this time. We have this code 19 and it started in china so therefore the chinese the response of all the guys are we blew our response to it and certainly there the chinese are not scot free here but certainly whats happening is there are exaggerating the demonisation china to build up militarily spend a lot of money and it is partly i would say the military Industrial Complex and the chinese hawks are you know taking advantage of the crisis oh yeah well you know me you know the military Industrial Complex loves welfare we all know that ok but you know when. You know. It when its correct to do to point out obamas response to the 2008 financial crisis here when mitt romney talking about more submarines more jets more aircraft i mean its a very very different here and the thing is here is that one and i am a realist i dont i dont understand why china is tonight to be able to pursue its own defined defense interests and this is one of the american elites never do they always define what everyones interests are and they expect them to follow it and countries like russia china iran say no we have a different definition of our sovereignty and we go to the recovery like this and you use the word sovereignty a lot and this is this misalignment and because its about the military and well talk about a couple legal a 2nd half of the program if its so premium or and we have to be very careful of errors go ahead absolutely. I think your point saying in terms of that americans feel that they traditionally have been an interest in to be able to dictate or at least. Lead our convinced governments which way that they should be focusing their military targets in their military prowess is quite significant in a key part and that is because for china and actually for most governments the military is more than just power the military is also very symbolic as a lot of our value has a lot of deterrence value and. Since the 1990 s. Is not just americans but americans have led the way since the 1990 s. The whole idea of chinese containment which is really expanding now. Has it has been their idea of china ideologically speaking has been a challenge because it continues to be a holdover from the you know the era of the red scare in iraq and so it becomes a matter of how can you how can you allow the worlds most populous country now the worlds 2nd largest economy to grow on income birds and ultimately focus on its own decision to have a military like almost all governments in the world do unless youre like a government like it and where you have historically youre in in a position where you cant ok so for the chinese idea that you want to build your own military is a position of you know what historically we have this history of imperial powers coming in dictating to us what we can and cannot do we want to have a military well have a military weve told our citizens the whole aim is to have a secure and. Strong nation. I think we have to throw in we have to understand you mentioned but i think we need to stress it is that china is experiencing a form of western containment directed by the United States i mean you have a military base. The surrounding the country here i mean it its the fact that its called the South China Sea for a reason because its next to china ok as well if hes trying to do the chinese that is far as i know dont have a leak in the caribbean or off you know california and i think that this is something that a lot of western audiences and coders they dont understand that ok because if you have a huge the largest and the most powerful military power in the history of the world right off your coat telling you where you can go where you can go that does seem threatening and i think thats legitimate i want to jump in here were going to go to a short break and after about 2 a break well continue our discussion of the new cold war its just. The world is driven by shaped by. The day or thinks. We dare to ask. Banks geysers financial survival will they say money to develop a. Plan to visit this is a central plank support diet problem is kind of problem right now so i stopped. To. Let you know. Just look. At this confessional moment last chance to ask me and seeing him down the day for the thats. Mission. Branson shift. In the. Future mom. No no look i still said im not going to much to be mama its just that. Well about the cross talk were all things are considered im peter ludlow remind you were discussing the cold war against china. Lets go back to london when you want to finish up one before we do the break right and so i think the whole point of the chinese containment that i mentioned earlier and what you also talked about is also was reiterated by obamas 2000 is a bit where we then saw the expansion of military bases not just linked to the immediate region around china but also into. The philippines as well as australia so there was a specific message that the americans are sending to the Chinese Military the military industry and. They need to protect themselves so it is not actually not surprising that the chinese are reacting the way they are ok i mean lets go back to washington i mean given everything weve said in the program here and its focus a little bit more on the military that im probably want to do and i will switch gears and talk about the economy so we have these we have to saudi arabia savva rattling going on here but you have an enormous amount of codependency here and this move to decouple which you know i mean when it comes to antibiotics and ventilators and i think thats right ok yeah i mean i think any large country should be prepared to protect their population because people tend to think endemic scrum and go is part of our Human History ok its just that in this case we try to. Corral all the healthy at the expense of the of the people that are ill usually was the other way around you quarantined ill people now its the general population so i think its perfectly reasonable for every country to be prepared in a medical sense but it goes far more than that ive been because over the last 30 years they say china still john john you can steal one job it was the american corporate elites that sent their jobs over there and now we have this quandary can the u. S. And china even decouple they wanted to. Well i think its very difficult and i am not saying that that should happen i mean i think wiki. When stuff probably not going to happen is we have both parties in the United States are fairly protectionist now the republicans used to be a little bit more free trade up in the past but you know people are very i think the key 1000 a recession really caused people to to do that to flip and now people are concerned about their jobs going overseas and of course its easy just doing what were talking about earlier to saying that evil is a foreign government. And when it was a free market decision many of those jobs are there some of them are going from china to. Some of the poor countries as china develops you know we have a proud noble lifecycle theory where you know china and the United States should probably let some of those jobs go on produce more highly technological things and you know thats the nature in and bring out that would bring out the developing world as well so im not sure that globalization is a bad thing now the problem is some people lose their jobs and some people dont some people profit enormously from it and i think thats where the political problem comes in all these countries not just the u. S. But other countries as well particularly in the u. S. And i think. And even the democratic candidate Hillary Clinton last time she kind of flipped she was a free trader before and she fled to the protectionist position but i think it was the previous recession now of course were having an even bigger recession so i dont and anticipate that who is asia is going to be a more popular probably the last popular but of course globalization has made brought many countries up. Including china and its not just an advantage in china a dent in it damage the United States well now are some of these countries going to have to make sure take some measures to to take the rough edges out that maybe but of course steve that has cost so but added to your point i think its going to get worse and we do know we are in or china is china and thats a good thing and here is the reason for that. Graham allison wrote a book where he catalogued the 16 they got instances sensed in the 1500 a rising power and dominic our abilities throw when to contact conflict and only for those cases who is peace and she there was a hot war and in the other 12 cases were just bad however the last 2 cases the soviet union vs us they hadnt yet Nuclear Weapons and then and with the british and the us which was a Successful Transition from the rising to the to the dominant power you had a deep trade relationship and you had a big ocean well with china we have all 3 of those they have Nuclear Weapons we have Nuclear Weapons we have a big interconnected economically and we have an even bigger so you know if youre a realist theres some hope that this might be worked out of course the us behavior as it has been pointed out is not in that direction but as the us china rises and the us hopefully will realize that. You know theres room to let china have a sphere in clusters run dont russia have a spirit employes and i think when the us does that maybe well have you know the big powers each completes the region of the world of course we have been influenced and one technique of the empire us empire is we said oh well spheres of influence and so yesterday but of course thats still how the world works on. And you know that all underneath all the you know b. S. Of that and thats just a way of saying well well determine what your severe mental and we dont think it should be that much in europe with russia in east asia and china but it is the real us would take over then we would have we would say well you know this this is work in the past when we had these constraints against one power you know when a hot war we have it we do i think we there are several factors that you can be optimistic that maybe you wont have a hot one because if we have a hot war it better stay limited or its going to be a really nasty just like it was in the cold war you know we needed the printing of what was just said this and some absolutely correct because it really at the end of all the fundamentals are there for a coming to terms it seriously but theres one little wrinkle this stopping all of it its called american exceptionalism they cant in american exceptionalism cannot deem china as a equal here its not part of the of the ideological construct ok that is the biggest problem a lot of people are having because really gemini it is unlimited its everything thats what we used to work ok its all right and you cant have this limited gemini it doesnt work that way and also i would point out and im going to go out of a limb here is also were seeing for the 1st time in 500 years a non youre in european or european extension our come as being the hedge amount and this is something that the western world doesnt think that cant comprehend ok i mean its a form of orientalism when it comes from the west ok and i think theres a fear factor there i mean looking at some of the editorials that i read this morning there certainly is a civilizational element to it go ahead. So i would agree with you the fact that. Americans cannot agree that time is equal power. And authority equal peer