The low in welcome across the uk were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle us secretary of state mike on kayo is on a mission he claims the world must change china or china will change us how should we interpret this a cold war to be waged against beijing this is also imply or regime change china is certainly a major global competitor but is it now our enemy. To discuss this and more im joined by my guest if you go in beijing he is chair professor and so Chalo University and in stand where we cross to Daniel Wagner he is c. E. O. Of country risk as well as author of china vision the America China to buy and his new book on the belt and wrote initiative in chinese or texas right gentlemen crossed out rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok lets go to beijing richard the words that you know the world must change turning over china will change just how do you interpret that because so many commentators and one paul. Was he in the one hole is he more home found in his speech at the Nixon Library a big bewildering because its taking to days circumstances in the post cold war in kind of whom reverting back to even using the same kind of language and i want to talk about the ideological. I mean china will is changing as many react that well 1st of all i see in my pump wales speech at the Richard Nixon president ial library was an insult to those nixon political legacy and its an insult to china u. S. Relations for more than 4 to one yes not to change i would say no other country has changed or more than china has over the past 40 years and if the changes are good for Chinese Peoples interest of course i will work up whatever changes we can bring along if the changes are to stop chinas economic rise i think all the channels people will unite behind the Chinese Government to oppose and fight against those changes i think what is talking about is that china should no longer develop as shall i should give up the rights of peaceful rise and this is what the townspeople can never accept china neat changes the laws of data if the changes will change china for the better and will improve the Living Standards of the Chinese People and these changes out what china are pursuing but these changes are exactly the opposite of what people at home pale and wishing for so we are at a very important crossroad ng in World History and chinas Economic Development is a major trend no one can stop chinas Economic Development. Ok daniel how do you how did you react to my poem pay as speech at the Nixon Library because a lot of people in a surprising number and said it is the this isnt a drawing a line in the sand is that is that what we need right now and it is that is his message. I think 1st of all the reason that he chose that venue is because back in the 1970 s. When kissinger and nixon opened up the door to us china relations i think there was an acknowledgment at the time or at least a hope that what might happen is that there would not only be a peaceful rise which of course Everyone Wants and everyone agrees with generally but they also were presuming that if there was enough exposure to the west if there was a Good Relationship between the u. S. And china and the west more generally that you know china would gradually liberalized politically and it would change into something other than what it was of course that didnt happen and i think the reason that it shows that venue is because if he had known that maybe that wasnt going to happen that maybe he would have thought twice about exactly how he did what he did but that all said i think the u. S. Government the u. S. People they certainly acknowledge that china is a very important and significant country its not going anywhere i dont think the american the American Government know what no matter what its come composition would dream of suggesting that china is not going to continue its rawest i think its clearly an unstoppable trend no one even if there was a desire no one would be capable of doing it so i think its its really an acknowledgment of where we are in sinar u. S. Relations at the present time you know really make sure you know that we ate i thought my home paon misinterpreted Richard Nixons opening because he is if you look at the historical record we have to remember this was in the middle. Cold war week and it was a nickname finally acknowledgment and in the washington elites that it was a rift between the soviet union and china and the nixons damned it was to get to triangulate to get in there and do work all off have characters work players working simultaneously and it actually works to the benefit of all 3 but i mean my campaign was interpreted as the china that nixons intent was to change the internal order china and i think thats a misrepresentation of the historical record this is about Foreign Policy go ahead. Absolutely i actually had the great honor and privilege of working for Richard Nixon when he visited china in 1985 as a private citizen and we travel together to several cities in china in addition to beijing nixon impressed me a great deal with his vision with his Historical Perspective and also with his carry on channel u. S. Relations so i see what my own pale did in the nixon president ial library is a sekret it is a really an insight of the nixon historical legacy now i see what the United States need to do is to figure out a way to get along with china whether us is bigger than china or whether china is bigger than us it doesnt matter that much the key is for china the United States the 2 largest economies in the world they need to get in there are with each other and you knew to figure out a way to deal with each others differences for example with respect rather than go into each others juggler rather than trying to wrestle the other side down to the ground because thats not possible the more pressure people i promptly helpful on china the more resilient china becomes and the more the Chinese People are rally behind the Chinese Communist party in our culture are the channels communist party is the largest the Political Party in the world with more than 93000000 members so i dont think pompei really knows what hes talking about the Chinese People are really very much united with the countless plenty of china why because they eat improve the Living Standards of the Chinese People they fight off the coronavirus they save people in the middle of the curler batters even those people in that mine tips for example this is why the commies idea of china in china earns on ball of credentials and also respect and support from the Chinese People song i. Whatever it wishes my popeil may have is mission is alicias all futility. Daniel one of the things they find very curious and it kind of you dont tales in with the rise of this pandemic is that for some reason the United States with its current political order in the political order in china run by the communist party as weve just heard here all the sudden they cant coexist its really quite remarkably nice they coexisting for 70 years but alas for months all i hear is communist china the communist party of china is thrown into the media here i mean is it something new its not new how do you explain that well apart thats new as everybody understands at least here in america is that the Trump Administration really is no longer taking china at its word that its going to do certain things we know for example that in the Obama Administration there was an effort to stop cyber intrusions and sarah back into any team she and obama had agreed to and then you know a month or 2 later they were back at it so i think theres an acknowledgement that the gloves are off that something fundamental has to change in the relationship and that china is no longer going to quote have its way with america whether it is these of the trade or in terms of cyber traditions or the theft of intellectual property the difference is now that the trumpet administration has basically said this will not stand in here longer we dont care if it has an impact on the bilateral relationship something fundamental has to change now i dont agree with strong about very much at all but i do agree that its important to tackle you know very fundamental aspects of International Relations and this is one of the i mean clearly the nature of that relationship could not continue going on the way that it was and is trying to credit a lot not accustomed to credit him for much i think that it ultimately will prove to be. Useful that the gloves are off and that there will be something fundamental that will change in this relationship that hastert pm daniel having said that then if the gloves are off the gloves are off to both sides because yes i mean you know bigger and you know i am not in the Intelligence Community and i cannot speak with authority here but. I think it is a default that countries buy on each other in the with the more more powerful and richer and more resources you have the more youre going to apply it in the way the American Media is always spinning it is it only china is doing this only in china and theres no its not never mentioned that this is part of ok im not going to bow to the Chinese Government any more than im going to bow to the u. S. Government considering the weapons of mass destruction in iraq that means they are ever destroying their reputation with lots of people like me so the bigger the gloves are off for both sides thats fair. Well tell him our Cyber Espionage has just reached the bulk of the information coming out of Edward Snowden and i think we will have a very comprehensive and complete picture of what the u. S. Government has been doing in terms of espionage all Cyber Espionage not to accuse china of duty thats while whitewash what the u. S. Government has been doing is really in in fantasy and i dont think people in germany for example or in other parts of europe will believe what washington is talking about and i would say the u. S. Way of manhandling great leading tech company like qual way really reveals to the fullest extent that the u. S. Cannot tolerate a company which is better than its own which is more out sending lead its own wishes are lead up in the 5 g. And its not only trying to kill far away by this rallying all its allies tried to kill huawei well it forgets that i killing huawei the americas are not going to benefit because this will drag down the you as roll out of the 5 g. Network as well as the applications to be built on top of the 5 g. Network it will be a net loss to the United States and eventually it may force china to really become completely Self Reliance in terms of said we cannot so it may actually. Read in the ethanol for the U S Semiconductor industry so i dont think people at home pale or abandoned for example on the morrow they know what they are talking about they want to do one thing they dont care about the consequences for the consequences will catch up with them this is how china u. S. Relations are played out right now and anything washington will do with its covers are without his gloves are now what the. It will be consequences and if i dont just exist i do want to get wrestled on channel to the radio news on t. V. Before we go to the break go ahead yeah yeah if i could just jump in on this actually 2017 i wrote a book on cyber rescue virtual terror so i do know a thing or 2 about this is that peter youre absolutely right states and gave in this type of behavior i think the objection here is the scale and the scope and the absence of consequences as a result of the actions that are often taken on the chinese side obviously the u. S. Is very active in this space as well if you want to jump in here we have to go to a hard break and after that heart rate well continue our discussion on u. S. Chinese relations state party. Sudden forced and illegal takeover of a government by a small group. Rather than revolutionaries or soldiers small group the corporations when you have a tiny group of people who have all the power you have to have some means to make sure the rest of us dont get together and take it back. Police are sacrificing. Places that capitalism exploited and destroyed for profit and left behind misery poverty environmental devastation and so you see things like Voter Suppression building more prisons you seem gerrymandering all sorts of undemocratic practices. Into that world for well this. Question of the. Welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered im here a little to remind you were discussing whether china is now be enemy. Ok lets go back to daniel talking about cyberspace before we went to the break. So i just wanted to pick up on one point and victor had made regarding the objection the Us Government has to walk away this because of the linkages between wall wage and Chinese Government if were always was strictly a commercial entity i dont think there would be much to object about and i also believe that having taken the actions that its taken on wall way its going to encourage American Companies to actually do more in the space and by m. 16 and i do think that ultimately that will be the net result ok. Its very interesting i think as i think victor is already kind of alluded to it is that the way were going were going to have to internet were going to have you know one country is going to choose to be on one platform and the other is in a truce on another and it doesnt look very good for the u. S. Because in in europe i mean for example the germans are really pushing really hard back that they want to make their own decision on this. Way and we have the u. K. Already come i want to switch gears a little bit here i want to go back to something the pump you know said im going to write this to you victor china ripped off our priced intellectual property and trade secrets costing millions of jobs across america i find im really getting tired of this argument here it was among the captains of american industry that decided where they were going to make do their manufacturing and they get a lot of it went to china went to mexico went to other countries it would be a lot of Different Countries here but to blame china for stealing jobs i find that really galling and its not in words with. With verifiable facts i would also say missed a lot is that american productivity actually increased amazingly and it was allowed to cut jobs i mean we have a productivity issue and then moving assets into foreign markets here i dont see how that is chinas all china. And shareholders of American Companies immensely benefited from it go ahead. Absolutely as of now china is already the largest patent producer in the world larger than the United States and china has a greater vested interest in protecting our rights or china itself or its companies as well as for companies throughout the world and the chinese Economic Transformation over the past 40 yes is really achieved by the great contribution and hard work and hard labor of the Chinese People you dont really need we really. Take a rest for weekends we really take holidays off for example we keep working and this is there really is a fundamental reason for the High Economic productivity interest and i think if you compare the disciplining or the work. Ethics of the Chinese People versus many other countries you will see why chinas Economic Development has been so rapid over the last 40 years and i hope really it will continue to accuse china of archaeology rights set is really the wrong tree as a matter of fact there are more litigations between and among American Companies i guess American Companies or American Companies or as Korean Company is French Companies etc in terms of intellectual rights infringement internet your rights problems im not unique to china and the Chinese Government has never had any state policy to encourage sassed of our p. R. Rights for example saw i think this is purely fabrication for the u. S. Government try to focus on chinas problem as if for example china abate the great Economic Transformation over the past 40 years because of the theft of our young nothing can be further from the truth as this. Y