To cross up this and more im joined by my guest when he came in london she is a policy analyst and senior lecturer in Chinese International political economy and in washington we cross to you and he is a senior fellow at the independent institute ok im going to go to you 1st in washington i mean if you look at the Mainstream Media as it was russia gate seems to wind down the banks have come up for china and some of the some really very very harsh editorials are being written there in the Washington PostNew York Times and they can a. T. O. Press and even in the British Press here is this a new cold war and if it is how is it different on the up with from the one that was against the soviet union go ahead and wash. Well i think its a bit its a little bit of a stroke to say its a cold war yet i mean i think this is all actually nearing frankly end but you know Foreign Countries sort of been historically have realized in the last president ial Election Years especially candidates you know attack Foreign Countries. Pearlie and try to stir things up because especially if theyre in trouble in other ways and i think our current president 7 difficulty with his response to the virus and also the economy the economic ramifications of course which other countries are also experiencing but in our country. You know of course especially chop his the real action really depends on the economy going well since hes a minority president that has he didnt get a majority the 1st time so i think youre seeing a lot of the election here and that things may die down. You know after the election season either kill him lose the election and somebody else will come in by or will be reelected and then the all aim to get some sort of agreement with chinese perhaps its hard to say what will happen but certainly this there is rising tensions and hes also attacking the w. H. O. As a child as having the trying to use have too much influence and when its an International Organization its certainly theres a lot of questions that could be asked by the w. H. O. In its response but. Legitimate questions but i think that was probably not the time to do it and now we saw it. Yesterday where they the countries china russia. The European Countries sided against the u. S. And its tomato to the organizations of the big show his is trying to attack that as well to attack trying to but its all for electoral purposes really you know when he handed in it seems to me that quite a bit of this is it is deflecting away from globalization because what we have seen for the last 35 years is elites in the west the embracing globalization in china is certain to be has benefited from it enormously how many tens hundreds of millions have been p. People didnt go. A lot of pretty mean its one of the most extraordinary stories and history here but you know they talked about all the great things of globalization and if you were against it then you were somehow an isolationist or Something Like that and and now they may use the maybe change the narrative being against china its all chinas well i mean as an american i know how fragile the American Medical System is because its driven by profits its not driven by taking care of people so thats one thing is im yours but i mean to kind of like to know what i can say there do you see this is basically being its origins being in domestic politics because it is its the victory always pretty strong i mean i havent seen a lot of things like Something Like this for a very long time and we have to keep in mind we went through 3 and a half years would be useless russia gate in one. So a lot of kind of vitriol that were seeing is i agree that it is new with regards to china has never been this strong but. From what i know of american politics americans love having a bad guy. And so we had the u. S. S. R. In the eightys we had japan we had the axis of evil in the middle east in iraq and afghanistan china is a perfect example of this right now because if were going around the idea of globalization the whole point of globalization right now is that globalization under American Mission was an eel it was system that was established and led american led institutions multilateral institutions i. M. F. World and b. T. O. W. H. O. If were talking about the problem we have right now is the globalization were experiencing is that its not an american only dominated american that anymore its not that the chinese economy has done so it so basseley well over the last few decades the fact that the chinese were imperative in their part whereas the imperative in the car in their participation after the 2000 a couple financial crisis and as a means of bailing out. Not just individual economies but the euro the euro area as well raises a lot of concerns as to this this unknown factor and what it means for where we are going and so when it comes to a lot of the things that the chinese are doing because it is not under u. S. Direction or influence and you also have the and a lot of traditional American Allies like the big 3 in the year in the euro the eurozone or the british are not following the lead we as americans this creates a lot of problems and a lot of concerns within the american electorate as well as in particular the american elite you know its really interesting and really you were very gentle and diplomatic in your language on that ive been all that ill say but i think that yeah american hegemony is being threatened and thats what its really all about and its really quite interesting you know im good at it. From you because i wrote i read your article that was the. American conservative i mean you have on the one hand it ministration this telling its. Treaty allies you know you have to start paying for your own defense you know you know particularly in the bigger you where your american ally treaty al ice should cough up more money and but then at the same time they there seems to be. This huge pivot to go to to asia here i mean it is very contradictory and winning is absolutely right a lot of American Allies are not knowing in step and so this is grating even more frustration for a political easily United States go ahead in washington. Yeah i think thats true and basically as a just the president we have other senators that are saying well we need more submarines we need more jet fighters in the fight in the east asia sattar and so theyre taking advantage of the kobe crisis to demonize china and of course. You know there was already pointed out that the u. S. Does like to have enemies and i would fully agree with that statement i think the iranians dont realize that because theres an article today the New York Times that saying you know your odds are pretty astute theyre trying to you know call things down in the tensions between the u. S. And iran because they know it is an Election Year and i think historically you know social Science Research indicates that countries do this because specially with the United States because they know things get heated up in the election but certainly what were saying is that republicans are trying to take advantage in this particular case of a crisis we had obama in a domestic crisis what with the Great Recession his chief of staff said never a lot of crisis go to waste and what they did back then was to take advantage of the economic crisis to get. Fairly unrelated thing health care you know Obamacare Bush did it with 911 going after iraq this time its well we have this code 19 and it started in china so therefore the chinese a response of all because our we blew our response to it and certainly there the chinese are not scot free here but certainly whats happening is theyre exaggerating the demonization of china to build up militarily spend a lot of money and it is partly i would say the military Industrial Complex and the chinese hawks are you know taking advantage of the crisis oh yeah well you know me you know the military Industrial Complex loves welfare we all know that ok but you know when he made. You know. Its correct to do to point out obamas response to the 2008. Hour talk about more submarines more jets more aircraft i mean thats a very very different here and the thing is here is that one and i am a realist i dont i dont understand why china is tonight to be able to pursue its own defined defense interest this is what the american elites never do they always define what everyones interests are and they expect in the following and countries like russia china iran say no we have a different definition of our sovereignty and we go to the route that you like just mentioned used the word sovereignty a lot and this is this misalignment and because its about the military and well talk about a couple even the 2nd half of the program if its supremely important and we have to be very careful of errors go ahead absolutely i think your point saying in terms of the americans feel that they traditionally have been image into position to be able to dictate or at least. Lead convince governments which way that they should be focusing their military targets in their military prowess is quite significant in a key part and that is because for china and actually for most governments the military is more than just power the military is also very symbolic as a lot has a lot of deterrence value and. Since the 1990 s. Is not just americans but americans have led the way since the 1990 s. The whole idea of chinese containment which is really expanding now. Has it has been there and idea china ideologically speaking has been a challenge because it continues to be a holdover from the you know the era of the red scare in iraq and of and so it becomes a matter of how can you how can you allow the world. Most populous country and now the worlds 2nd largest economy to grow an income birds and ultimately focus on its own decision to have a military like almost all governments in the world do unless you elect a government like it and where you have historically youre in in a position where you cant ok so for the chinese done idea that you want to build your own military is a position of you know what historically we have this history of imperial powers coming in dictating to us what we can and cannot do we want to have a military well have a military weve told our citizens the whole aim is to have a secure and. Strong nation. I think we have to throw in we have to understand you mentioned but i think we need to stress it is that china is experiencing a form of western containment directed by the United States i mean you have a military base the surrounding the country here i mean its the fact that its called the South China Sea for a reason because its next to china ok as well it is china is the chinese it is ours i know dont have a leak in the caribbean or are you know california and i think that this is something that a lot of western audiences and voters they dont understand that ok because if you have a huge the largest and the most powerful military power in the history of the world right off your coat telling you where you can go where you can go that does seem threatening and i think thats legitimate i want to jump in here were going to go to a short break and after about 2 a break well continue our discussion of the new cold war construct stayed. Out of one of the eyes going to our way of. Bandicoots old Movie Theater i. Was in this way got to talk so hard not to think of the mother disappeared this moment the look of it i was and i dont mean to start then if. This is the only thing that we do is music because everybody fights his way. To. The floor and you can feel the 50 pound is worthless woody allen called the ability to put that came out on the. Roof but i think it is this is the fans that is a constant. Cool. Ah no no crowd. No shots. Actually is the goal to. Drive both of us to. Which your thirst for action. Welcome back across town where all things are considered im good a little to mind you were discussing the cold war against china. Lets go back to london when he went to finish up one before we went to the break right and so i think the whole point of the chinese containment that i mentioned earlier and which you also talked about as also was reiterated by obamas 2008 where we then saw the expansion of military bases not just linked to the immediate region around china but also into guam the philippines as well as australia so there is a specific message that the americans are sending to the Chinese Military the military industry and the need to protect themselves so it is not actually not surprising that the chinese are reacting the way they are today and lets go back to washington i mean given everything weve said in the program here and its focused a little bit more on the military learned probably want to do it now will switch gears and talk about the economy so we have these we have just saudi arabia savva rattling going on here but you have an enormous amount of codependency here and this move to decouple which you know i mean when it comes to antibiotics and ventilators i think thats right ok yeah i mean i think any large country should be prepared to protect their property. Lation because people tend to forget endemic sperm and go its part of our Human History ok its just that in this case they try to use. A growl all the healthy at the expense of the of the people that are ill usually was the other way around you quarantined ill people now its the general population so i think its perfectly reasonable for every country to be prepared in a medical sense but it goes far more than that i mean because over the last 30 years they say china still john johnny didnt steal one job it was the american corporate elites that sent their jobs over there and now we have this quandary can the u. S. And china even decouple theyve wanted to. Well i think its very difficult and im not saying that that should happen i mean i think wiki. When stuff probably not going to happen is we have both parties in the United States fairly protectionist now the republicans used to be a little bit more free trade in the past but you know people are very i think the key 1000 a recession really caused people to to that the cliff and now people are concerned about their jobs going overseas and of course its easy just doing what were talking about earlier to saying that evil is a foreign government. 5 and when it was a free market decision many of those jobs are some are going from china to. Some of the poor countries as china develops you know we have a proud noble lifecycle theory where you know china and the United States should probably let some of those jobs go on produce more highly technological things and you know thats the nature and growing up that we bring out the developing moral as well so im not sure that globalization is a bad thing now the problem has. Some people lose their jobs and some people dump some people profit enormously from it and i think thats where the political problem comes in all these countries not just the u. S. But other countries as well particularly in the u. S. And i think. And even the democratic candidate Hillary Clinton last time she kind of flipped she was a free trader before and she fled to the protectionist position but i think it was the previous recession now of course were having an even bigger recession so i dont and anticipate that who is ations going to be any more popular probably the last popular but of course globalization has made brought many countries up the good in china and its not just an advantage in china a dent in damage the United States as well now are some of these countries going to have to make sure take some measures to to take the rough edges up that maybe but of course steve that has cost so but added to your point i think its going to get worse and we do know we are in or china is china and thats a good thing and here is the reason for that. Graham allison wrote a book where he catalogued the 16 they got instances sensed in the 1500 a rising power and dominic our abilities draco went into contact conflict and only for those cases was peace and she there was a hot war and in the other 12 cases were just bad however the last 2 cases the soviet union versus us they hadnt yet Nuclear Weapons and then and with the british and the us which was a Successful Transition from the rising to the to the dominant power you had a deep trade relationship and you had a big ocean well with china we have all 3 of those they have Nuclear Weapons we have Nuclear Weapons we have a big interconnect. Good economic and we have an even bigger so you know if youre a realist theres some hope that this might be worked out of course the u. S. Behavior as it has been pointed out is not in that direction but as you know as china rises and the us hopefully will realize that. You know theres room to let china have a sphere in clusters run dont russia have a spirit and. I think when the u. S. Does that maybe well have you know the big powers which completes the region of the world of course we have been violence and one technique of the empire u. S. Empire is we said oh well spheres of influence and so yes that could of course thats still how the world works underneath all that all underneath all the you know b. S. Of that and thats just a way of saying well well determine what your severe mental insists and we dont think it should be that much in europe with russia in east asia and china but it is the realists would take over then we would have we would say well you know this but this is work in the past when we had these constraints against one power you know and we know how why are w