People not so well off except current shows that deep down this entire and they owe through worst major government in the western world are aware that the system which then being defended and supporting doesnt work for a majority of people that the lesson to be drawn after the virus has been tackled and shown if i may just say one of the countries that are shown no panic because it is bad for these claims is the tiny island of cuba where cruise ships which are not allowed to land anyway on joke anywhere jocking in cuba being greeted by the population of seoul and are being treated by the doctors and the cubans are sending free medicines all over africa now that is the mall where. Isnt the west there still gun to site move or to maintain sanctions against iran or venezuela which is still to be incomplete be discussed stick though this is still going on when those in the higher world is facing this crisis in fairness to morris johnsons Foreign Office and the stand of the British Government have thanked the cuban government for taking the ship the braemar into port but certainly no condemnation from here about the u. S. Sanctions on the island i want to get on to some of those other issues a bit later and todays anniversary of the iraq war but youre also a novelist and putting your novelist hat on how do you characterize near liberal culture and art given the fact that most peoples cultural imagination of a pandemic is really from hollywood and from films that what we have to go on well i mean you know its lost both of the culture today obviously is dominated by a form of neo liberalism which bill curry cheers individual as some of d the most group has sort of you know this and be worshiped of 1st celebrities that someone extremely well known on television or a very strong. Actor is almost greeted as a god and this is really deep deep you know become much much worse over the last 30 to 40 years so this. Proves various people almost not completely from thinking collectively and actually its not tell by the technology i think that the old internet revolution mistaken placing characters individual ism of course it meat i mean the number of people you run into on the buses all the tube. Oro pavement so even on their bikes they see you know from the noises of the real world if i can put it like that their eyes sealed off from what is going on around them because theyre concentrating on ones that are normal on the singles grange now it neednt be like this but that is what it is but and i think in it on screen a. Frightening eerie way what we are witnessing now is people beginning to think again beyond themselves holy wall is you know produce the old film like contagion the waters that kill it just creates korea i mean the pain is. Lost to create fear but to create hope not to create best 70 but to encourage people to be to be active and they is now at the station response to this crisis i mean someone wrote from send up all saying that here in south korea and in japan the the detainees testing testing the entire population regularly and not banning contact with each other except physical contact so there are many many different ways of looking at it from the fact that the chinese themselves. Bought it was not was in the new case it be recorded anywhere in the country shows that actually in the interests of who are great people and have been a factor in any way more about the United States where you dont even have 3 elephants deeply shocking the richest most powerful country in the world treat its population because of capitalists dock on us and the one candidate and being for a. National Health Service in the United States is most likely to be made to feel. Egypt but a Sleepy Joe Biden so its a very weird big job but i think there are lessons to be no i think many people are there and im saying that if this is what you have to do in emergencies why cant you change the way in we treat live well hollywood at least though is how a lot of people describe what happened 17 years ago today when the world woke up to the pictures of the u. S. And u. K. Bombing of baghdad why is it still relevant what happened in 2003 why is it still relevant to all our lives right now because its still going on thats the 1st reason that it was 17 years ago it was iraq. And the the comments that are being inflicted on this country the brutality the cruelty the u. S. Do not to by. Doing Everything Possible to find shias from sudanese one day playing with the shia giving them. Which makes your arm the central are in the region and then suddenly blaming other forces for it no good it they did it now theyre touting iran and theyre. Basically using the saudis to control the sunni population. And most important of all just trying the social infrastructure of that country that is will hit disaster doubtless a mess my friend noomi klein calls it that its all the pain in iraq they just strolling to an entire country and if you think about it today where the tire world is thinking about coronado wires i have absolutely no doubt and i can say this with confidence that the Health Service created by the iraqi. Series of iraqi governments was one of the best of the middle east and not a bit much better able to cope with this one isnt the moment in iraq a wall to trigger off another wall in the region. Syrian. War there created Massive Movement of populations and refugees that this war is still going on even as all of europe keep. Is appealing to the United States to with rule all its troops from the region that is being ignored you talk to many iraqis to do it all could go persuasions and they will say it openly we are much better off under our 2nd that is what they say can i just say can i guess a terry if anyone thinks youre an apologist for Saddam Hussein you made me work on a program in the eightys about thatchers support for Saddam Hussein what is it like actually personally given that you came under pressure for that channel of our program because he was an ally of britain and then over the air that its which is a matter for folks we would join for cham for if you remember or serve the architect trail of fear and we were it was an ultra Political Program showing those who built these giant danticat monumental statues of a model from so the old arms went like this and dominated. Especially in the military areas the parade grounds and we were doing a critical piece of this and we came under a lot of pressure not to do it i remember i should when you or someone else researching that program rack up the company in basingstoke in an area in england. Which did the baddies big arms. They created them and then shipped the monster but that they said why aint trying this its affrightedly. So many of us who are pro critical of. When he was actually in battle or. What then attacked for opposing a iraq war you live in a strange world priorities are decided by your rules and decided depending on whom the United States as settled on as the enemy of the month and this is becoming an enemy of the poor need be to get its i mean if you think the iraq war the american soldiers are still that libya has been destroyed that syria is trying to recover from an horrific civil war then afghanistan is still occupied all of these holes of lasted longer than the 1st and 2nd world wars book to get and they carry on and what it angers will be is that citizens in most of the western world a Europe North America sleep or kerry day basically ignore the lot their governments and their countries have been doing to the middle east which isnt as state of. Recreate destruction on many many levels politically socially economically culturally and the palestinians left with absolutely nothing and the 2 basically supported by the United States israel. And egypt receiving huge subsidies to this day for acquiescing in one has been happening. Since anniversary and also lots of. Monsters are emerging from the aftermath of this war people. So you attack isis thats the worst group up to date oh they did come look about ok there wasnt present in iraq under saddam was said it went in with the american troops and the troops of other countries supporting that so its not difficult to worth to true true or a direct link between the domain of both dirty old those years ago and the state of the middle east today britain in the United States of course to this day completely deny creating ice is day ash fog ill stop you there more from jerry gulley after this short break. Blushes and. Watching the horse trail team youll be set its a chance that all the shooting against. Them under. The youth of those you know circle included at least there youre a lawyer there was quite a jump i want to have been speaking to show. For the approach will be. Given to us but then the subsequent users tell them not to be some porn summed up for. The money approachable british mr west i am all sure but. Childs seemed wrong. But old rules just dont go all. The way to get to shape out just to come get educated and engagement equals betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart. Just to look for common ground. All right. Welcome back im still here with tariq ali you were speaking at rallies the Largest Global demonstration in history or at against the iraq war alas does it not show that protest marches do not stop wars like the one that happened 17 years ago today and what difference was iraq to vietnam because obviously mick jagger and the Rolling Stone sang about your opposition to the vietnam war how is it different i think the main difference is in what happened to the world in the ninetys in my opinion the fact that the soviet union collapsed that china and the way it did created a huge wave of demoralized nation even amongst people who basically didnt so all these governments but saw them as creating a space between 2 power blocs and in that space we can all function and live and be critical of one euro side and we want to do. That counterbalance disappeared the United States book game the had a moment power in global scale and people failed them and alternatives the iraq and iraq war demonstrations in my opinion was the 1st sign that people were searching for Something Else 1st day by saying dont make war on iraq and these demonstrations were huge in your but if we look back on it over a 1000000 people in london 2000000 people in madrid nearly 3000000 in rome. Over 200000 to new york hundreds of thousands all over and the phony ship cargo every American City in provincial capital state capital was infected in effected by a desire to stop the war they were ignored and one reason they were ignored is that they had no following and little support in parliament when you have the republicans and the democrats waging war. And supporting it when you have too many black band Prime Minister in britain the conservative opposition supporting the war then you know you can have 2 to 3000000 people and you know that its a reality of it and been never came out again and those numbers i remember saying at the big demonstration theyre no longer were all trying to fight against the war dont imagine it wont take place or words to that effect and really more obscure with this star bombing where we didnt we couldnt there also satinder but effectively they got away with it but it will be wrong to draw from this the conclusion their protest is useless it may not always be effective but creating a different Public Opinion is extremely important i am not now and nothings being done. And these really occupation has been sanctified by a crime back and terror de facto by the European Union days no chance of the palestinians getting any form of state even the most not only. The present time nothing happens the world is garcia is that total ghetto completely wrecked disease the Palestinian Authority has got so used to collaboration with the israelis that they basically dont know what to do when they oppose whats playing now i mean they participated in creating this situation where the british well it was not a marketplace thats what i say but that doesnt mean we stop arguing your bait mobilising i mean life would be awful if one just became well the british the labor party his ministers obviously committed us to war in iraq 17 years ago obviously. Protecting israel arguably after the after the Jeremy Corbin years why do you think that this same labor party as it were is so keen to reinvite people who are associated with the iraq war back even to the party including i mean care started a leading figure once tony blairs head of war propaganda Alastair Campbell back in the labor party is this Opposition Party does it understand what youve been saying well i think there are 2 things one has to see about a party what is the insurrection on little girl insurrection of the Young Country and me or bill interim our our as fracture. In my opinion and momentum became exclusively true machine if not exclusively 80 percent of it through our low there mick in addition to that also doing a lot of political campaigning political education etc so that the strength of traditional live gruesome which is that the only thing we do which is win the elections is now back in falls the left was given a chance the left was defeated not even going to ask him. Searching for why the left was defeated in refusing to accept then it was because labor joined him all the parliamentary moorings to prevent i referring to him from being implemented to peer starmer let me just say obviously associated according to the un with the persecution of julian a son from whom and because of whom we know so much more about iraq than we have a did back then how frightened are you for Julian Assange can i just as the founder of wiki leaks given hes in belmarsh prison and governors of prisons in this country obviously are worried about the spread of coronavirus im extremely worried about truly moon for many many. I mean initially it seemed that they were imposing a regime not really cheating on him in that prison which could have led to him know the depths that his order number of doctors said and then the governor of the prison. Brutish rager who none of the judges wanted to try to change because its not neagle that the governors domain which is not that good for breast baring befall them is not an offense state to give evidence they have every right to challenge. The governor of the prince who julian is deliberately being mistreated the case is completely manufactured new cement so the un report on torture has made a very powerful intervention saying that the what took place in sweden when he was accused of rape something you always deny was offending crap and processed and designed to discredit him and lose all which was relatively successful i think many people seem to prove that but the fact is that this accusation against judea on Security Matters is completely bizarre and everyone else it is the americans know its the only when they can get him back into the states the british and know that this is a political decision it has nothing to do with the law and im going along with it and i hope that some sense prevails when the case goes to the Supreme Court and this concrete because it is quite shocking what has happened to julian i hope years said were to go to mess a many many years ago has learnt a few lessons. From that and i think this is something wait show even Boris Johnson who is being the most of his life we journalists should understand if you agree to. What the americans are asking you to do i mean to do it very. Exposed war crimes tomorrow it could affect other journalists who spose other things which the United States didnt want to expose an american soldier already have said washington is dead any foreign journalists the u. S. Constitution doesnt apply to them so they can pick anyone up and theyre over to washington to be crying since most governments do their bidding any certainly the torture has been written about people who watch our interviews with meals well to the un special rapporteur on torture better if one can forgive a media in a Coronavirus Crisis for not covering the sun is not covering the the continued bombing of iraq backed by britain of by the United States in the past few days. There is that just nation being passed through parliament and if its not martial law its military immunity legislation. What do you think about why boris ronson is keen on pursing immunity for british soldiers is it somehow emblematic of british intervention 3 mile island to iraq absolutely. Clear you want to stay out late a situation where british soldiers are immune from. Prosecution i mean this is something weve all to against in many countries where the military is also a little part of the military shouldnt out these days its a big call to against in the United States where many antiwar activists want to us officers involved in massacres from be it maam on whats charged to cry. It is still done to those who the west regards it as the enemies of the International CriminalCourt Functions just as a court goes who are guarded as enemies of the west so its i dont own a circle of what is going on well just finally in the when it comes to colonial legacies kashmir is of course a colonial legacy and the sudan the Indian Government has again put it under total lockdown we had the high commissioner on this shows that it was being freed up a little of course it is the center of a