Thanks to cynically winton who helped organize came to transport from czechoslovakia but i got here told that i almost certainly owe my life to him once in a while the days of challenges to test our humanitarianism and europes effigy cup crisis is surely one such challenge but within that there is i believe a need to do something about unaccompanied child if the g. s and you are like other children to be able to safety in this country and be given the same welcome and opportunities that i had. How things have changed when the house of lords similarly amended the johnson withdrawal bill the government use its Newfound House of commons muscle last month so overturn it without any set of many tournaments this week or 2 more the moment for which was moved in the other place in the name of the noble lord lord well the government humbly disagrees with the noble lords a moment this moment in no way affects our commitment to seek an agreement with the e. U. Prime religious way she cannot deliver the best outcomes for these children as it cannot guarantee that we and agreements and that is why this is automatically a matter which must be negotiated with the e. U. And the government is committed to doing so to seek in the best possible outcome those negotiators give way and of course however while they amend it was removed from the bill they issue itself has not gone away and today we speak to some of the committed campaigners within the and to fight parliament who intend to bring it back to the Political Center stage i think the more of us the better and we will definitely i will get every celebrity a every face that i can on to this campaign i will do anything to make it happen we need to make it work and i will refugee in the United Kingdom can take the children with them but our child refugee can take that out of peters siblings with them and i think has a great inequity because surely children who are refugees deserve the same rights as adults or refugees and i dont think its been fully thought through the consequences of not doing that at all and spitters arguments were made up against it which are shown not to be true. With the parliamentary prospects looking much less hopeful for the child refugee campaigners thought so now turning tighter a new pressure from outside Parliament One aspect is to focus on the constitution that the defendants have charged effigies of the past have made to this country alex speaks to the star of a 1000 t. V. Programs Debbie Arnold whose mother was brought to this country as a toddler on conduct transport and arnold welcome back to the show this is lovely to see you alex i feel i feel like im part of the. Well the last time we spoke to you a bit of you because power. Grabs are more than our Television Screens but we can spot your posting in the homeless but the youve got a very particular interest in taking up the cudgels on behalf of child refugees cudgels youre taking up with the formidable log dubs of yes love does well my mother was on the kids transport and so was self dobbs and so im im trying my best to get the word out and make things now that of course now that the government has well what if they dont need the lord said they were going to carry on this amendment and then the went into the commons and they said we were so well what happens now but the governments position were just have from stephen bach to the black society is that ok doesnt have to be in the legislation in order for it to be government policy to help a child left use or if you could dos about that well i mean because beforehand what it was legislation it still wasnt done and so and then they had to go to court to say you know this is not being done so that it and then of course now its not part of the legislation so i dont really kind of would understand what the governments talking about but there again i dont most of the time so what youre saying is that the government didnt on its commitment that was the previous government exam in government when it was in the legislation how can you trust them what is not in the legislation before and wouldnt a government want to help believe that were talking here but child refugees who are doing. Valium egypt family with them in europe but have family in the u. K. We dont really want to not the facility a lot of these people obviously not and i and i dont understand how we my mother came over here. To transport as well i mean they didnt have any relatives over here and they had to be sponsored to come here and thats what you know 10000 kids came over here and then even then the government didnt want to do it but it was Public Opinion so now we need Public Opinion to change but how do we change that if Public Opinion was so strong im sure theyd listen to it but people dont understand the difference between immigrants and refugees and there is a massive difference but what are you saying that were back because everybody in this country says oh yes look at the conduct transport program thats a sign of the open hearted you know rossetti of of this country are you saying that wasnt an unambiguous poll was that it was because they didnt want it dont if there were you know they didnt want to do it but the the Public Opinion swayed and they said they had to do after kristallnacht they said thats it weve got to do something and they did but. Youre mom she she was with a small child which was on can you know she was you know came over here at 4 years old and she was put on the train and a lot of people dont know either that they were told that if they cried when they were with the parents took them to the station they were told that if they cried or showed any emotion they want to put the kids on the train so you can imagine it was like a silent thing and they were saying goodbye to the children and the children little children 4 years old how could they understand what was happening i mean its such a horrible thing but there again they came over to england they saved their lives and i wouldnt be alive if it wasnt for the can transform what i meant to mum. One day when you were old enough to understand that this is how i know she didnt she you know it was always part of my life always was what was part of anybody elses life i remember when i was little growing up and seeing him in films about bits and my mother used to run to the. The sense that perhaps i can see my mummy and daddy and it really used to make me so upset so i never was very interested he used to just upset me the whole thing about the war i never want to talk about it because i upset her so much generations of people who came as part of the program must be muscle contributions only in your world of acting and if you come across a lot of actors who were part of course as we had to find interesting i think people didnt really talk about it its only recently now that i know so many people that are connected now that im friendly with after youve got dame shirley i mean she is she shes very high up in autism there are thousands in fact theres a list of people who came over on the can to transport you know top physicians top you know people of surgeons everything people have saved lives constantly and there are people now when we went to the there was a kid to transport reunion and it was just fantastic to see i mean people now that came over very old but that their children and what theyve given to society and how weve changed this country because this country saved my mothers life and i feel that all the contributions that she made and all the people that came over on the kinda made have made a huge difference to this country so weve paid back our dues as perhaps some of the lemming center attached to the new Holocaust Memorial will do to assure the contribution will so they should do i think that would be fantastic so why when given the track record when lets talk about lord dobbs for a 2nd i would believe respect because of his background because he was part of the program because he speaks with former rival thought at the on the issue which is he see the politics of this lying and how is your Campaign Going to take shape if you mobilize public and well i dont know man are they going to be formidable to govern though i know i love i love to work with them at the moment im working with im just you know being a Spokes Person for how i feel im not my views of my own not his as you say concerts are but i dont know whats going to happen next obviously. Will come up with a plan and i should be behind him but weve got to hope weve got to get Public Opinion behind us if we cannot get the government behind us weve got to get Public Opinion and somehow we will im sure i was partly a campaign will be mobilizing some of your your showbiz power to get the message across yes absolutely i think the more of us the better and we will definitely i will get every celebrity a every face that i can on to this campaign i will do anything to make it happen we need to make it work in the terms of the contribution. Youre saying that people dont always appreciate the difference between immigration and refugee how do you illustrate that were folks dont grading immigration which in itself many would argue i would argue is a fairly good thing for yes i think immigration is good but i think people think that people come over here as immigrants and they take from our society they take from the n. H. S. They take from this they get free theres they get free that they get you know benefits where is thats what they feel they come over im not saying they do that but i think thats what they think i think terms of National Health service so the question would be very much the well exactly but thats what people think and i think that on the other hand with refugees these people need help theyre not coming over here to to to take or even contribute particularly they just need to be saved they just need someone to look after them they are vulnerable we look after animals and i am a huge animal lover we look after our animals so well now because we have to we get animals from all over the world from greece we have programs with greece and spain bringing in rescue dogs but we cant bring in rescue children and yet the help in moments of the last few years one thinks of the autumn of 2015 will the picture of arlene killed the car dish lot of and 3 years old lying dead on the beach you know mobilize change Public Opinion and not just of this country but but what will why how do you create that intimacy with people without people always. With a lie on a picture of a complete after the individual clutch i think you need someone to explain i think people need to know its just about knowledge i mean before hand we used to just leave animals didnt we we didnt treat them very well and i think now that because weve had so much Public Opinion that Everybody Loves you know like paul ogrady for the love of dogs we have all these wonderful programs we need probably more media on the a lovely programmes to show how lives have been changed we need to do something very special to show this compassionate country to be a program on successful refugees your contribution to me exactly says that you know that yes i think that youre absolutely right and no ones done that we need to know we need to know the success of these people but we need to help people we need to feel compassionate towards these little children some of whom are sleeping in the fields on their own they have no family well if anyone could put forth a program idea or get on to the screen is about to write a letter x. Like that thats the next thing someone asked if you dont care whats what should be in activities of a person well i said i do lots of voice overs im also a producer of shows on cruise ships which is great which i actually produced and put on myself and im also a contributor to close Time Magazine so im doing loads and loads of things so i on the to start my my career goes in one thing and out of the other but i think i still think i might like to go back to a soap but you keep coming back and joining us now i love coming here so thank you for having me place alex. Join us after the break for alex a lot probably a problem and she campaigner i guess spending macneil how m. P. s can still make a difference facing a large government majority will see that. 10 year period of the. Money velocity or money has gone directly into the pockets of the few oligarchs and countries the doors of america and around the world in these silos like these 12500000000. 00 properties when they when the infrastructure for that starts to crack and illiquid he starts to see balance and you get inflation for real for stuff like food and were seeing this happen now where people are noticing that the cost of every day living has starting to spike higher. In the troubled 19 seventies a group of killers rampage through parts of Northern Ireland that was coordinated loyalists attacks particularly on the population of tens of thousands were forced to flee their homes and what was striking to put these attacks was a p. R. You see the Police Actually took part in the attacks so instead of preventing them they were active participants in the burning of full streets in belfast i think more than a 100 innocent civilians with blood that has to live you can see in yours and we found out more i was surprised about the extent and of the currents which the collusion was involved in some of those cases that killers would lead to be named into than a gang i think it went to do very very top i think it is. The water where all the taste and you thought was going on and give the go ahead. Welcome back 2 years ago while lord dubs led the campaign for child refugees in the house of lords to spain to mcneil the m. P. For the human in year let the count pain in the house of commons his private. Member bill fell through a 2nd reading in 2018 with all Party Support only for the government to use procedural tactics to 1st rate it from becoming law alex big fantastic meal about how to make progress in the new political environment of a government with a massive commons majority and im joined by someone whos taken key parliamentary list of in the house of commons on the issue of refugees meal newly reelected this chair of the International TradeCommittee Congratulations on your statement much i like your im glad to be back its an Interesting Group particularly this time with border seeming to learn International Trade on the hoof every time we turn on the television he thinks a lot of silly as wu is a deal so on the subject of refugees in the last parliament you produce the the family unification refugees family reunification bill which sailed through its 2nd reading a great achievement for a private members bill sykes but then go down by the government lost in the the sirens of commons procedure of what happened to the year they were given it was technically called a money resolutions or can get up to committee upstairs in the commons and there was a tory whip was particularly difficult about and went on their legs and as leader of the house i asked several times of business questions why the money resolution wasnt forthcoming i was sort of storing walling food for weeks on the trot i asked the same question effectively and to the leaders of those under lead some of the time and theres really no will within the tory party to move that on and we would only be giving children the same rights as adults something thats normal across decent countries across the world but lets deal with the procedure 1st im in for people watching around the world so here was a bill on a friday which most m. P. s of already shuttled back to their constituencies was was carried before a commanding majority usually you know a large number of m. P. s attending but even with the parliamentary assent. Government of the black arts of god but put certain procedure of knowledge to bog down in the house of commons and the tone of that make you feel was very well summarize the it really was difficult because id met some of the young refugees in question who had hoped at the 2nd reading stage that meant perhaps if he says that may not be taking a dangerous journey through the sahara could just fly here in safety if you go with people traffickers to the sahara particularly as a woman well you dont need to spell it graphically what might happen is sadly not pleasant and if you fall off one of the vehicles then these just left and so its a dangerous journey both physically in mentally in many ways to try and get yourself to a place of safety so were trying to do was to get children and families reunited these are people who have families already in the United Kingdom who were seeking to join them from danger zones and war zones as refugees from from around the continent that was the objective of your book absolutely and it happens in other European Countries where the child more typically a teenager might arrive in a certain jurisdiction the family have been split up for someone reason or another they might have wondered of course africa or the middle east of whatever and ended up in a european country to relative safety in normal countries the a low children have the same right as adult refugees of an adult refugee in the United Kingdom can take the children with them but our child refugee can take that out of periods or siblings with them and i think has a great inequity because surely children who are refugees deserve the same rights as adults or refugees and i dont think its been fully thought through the consequences of not doing that at all and spitters arguments were made up against it which are shown not to be true so what is the governments logic here will remember memorably of dubs in the house of lords succeeded an amendment to teresa mayes breaks a bill tried the same. Thing and succeeded in the lords of abolish johnsons woodrow bill but use these big majority in january to overturn the house of commons but what is the governments motivation a minute most were talking about a few 1000 people involved why are they so dead set against a