To discuss that im now joined by peter mauer president of the International Committee of the red cross mr maher its always good to talk to you thank you very much for finding titus for having me now you are now in moscow to take part in the warshaw that deals with what essentially are the laws of wars the Geneva Conventions but this is not how this event is officially called instead it makes reference to International Rules governing military operations is it just me quibbling over semantics or has they indeed been a shift on the battlefield from the loss to the rules with the letter i assume being last restrictive. Well i think there have been many shifts in the battlefields over the last decades and recently we have seen that it is more important and maybe did just to teach the generalities of flaws in try and in the Geneva Conventions to look much more in detail to. The ground rules and the rules of engagements that militaries have in the battlefields to compare notes to look at good experiences as well which have proven to protect civilians better than others and i think this is what this workshop is very much about i think you have seen we bring together more than 103. 00 and 4. 00 star generals from over 70 countries with which we entertain regular contacts but also which are engaged in their day to day life into military operations so its an exchange of experience and they have a classical exchange a very Practical Exchange of experts and this is the 1st time that this workshop is being held in russia where Russias Defense Ministry acting as the bounce partner and i assume there are lots of people and cultures who dont like Russias Defense Ministry as an entity let alone and contact in military zones such as syria have you experienced any pushback on holding this specific event in this country i. C. R. C. Has no likes and dislikes of ministries and im sure your undying room in the early internal intrigues and well we do have we appreciate the contacts with militaries of defense with armed forces thats the core activity of i. C. R. C. And we have been very appreciative for after some explanations also over the last 2 years to have agreement from the ministry of defense to host this workshop i think it is important that armed forces who have practical experience and who are engaged. In todays military battlefield site at the same time host and it gives credibility to a workshop i had the privilege of interviewing him before when the syrian conflict was at its nadir and when the criticism of russias military conduct in syria was very loud very prominent. As this war is now a drawing to a close hopefully drawing to a close in large part thanks to russias own efforts how would you characterize russias observance of the laws of war in syria on itself and relative to other partners other actors well you can easily imagine i. C. R. C. Is not here to judge we kick you late concerns obviously one of the big issues that we have seen recently in yemen in iraq in syria in all the context in the middle east is for instance urban warfare and so one of the Big Questions today also in the experiences of the past couple of years is always what are and what do the classical principles of International Humanitarian law distinction proportionality precaution mean when you are confronted with urban contexts of warfare with densely Populated Areas in which you use modern technology modern weapons and what are you are awfully geishas to precaution and the obvious that i see or see as the advocate for protection of civilians may not always have the same. Appreciation and the same exactly according to judge military operations us military story so its really about this dialogue between the humanitarian protection perspective and the military necessity perspective now there has been no one has been lambasted more for suppose a district. Total disregard of the humanitarian law down the syrian authorities and i take it from some of your interviews that this phrase total disregard may not be accurate in describing the stance of the of the Syrian Government in fact i know that the i. C. R. C. Has done a study looking specifically into where when the law was upheld and one it was broken in the syrian context do you understand now the drivers the incentives and the hurdles that allowed or not allowed the syrian authorities to respect the humanitarian the International Humanitarian or in the context when it was very difficult you have to admit it was very difficult to respect that law i c r c is not an advocate of generalizing. Condemnations or generalizing praise on the International Humanitarian law we are very much aware and have been for 156 years now of the complexity of the battlefields and the difficulties as technologies battlefields actors and contexts evolve to apply the basic rules of International Humanitarian law so each case has to be looked at individually we dont have armed forces or armies or nonstate our groups just only does require to in International Humanitarian law this happens very very we dont have those who respect perfectly so we do recognize that the syrian context has always been a difficult context its a context of fragmented actors of multiple actors of unclear chains of command. Certainly on the level of nonstate armed groups but even complex chains of commands in the syrian. On the side of the syrian army we have seen the complexities also with russias involvement in syria of how you partner with. Amongst 2 armies. Where are the rules and responsibility of each one of those armies and i think this workshop that you have alluded to is a great opportunity to look at someones dislike or just will not be publicized trying to get some information out for you for the benefit of the general audience you you mention those principles that guide the legal use of force in an Armed Conflict one of those principles with the military in the city as well and i think all the military is operating. On the syrian battlefield with claim that they take all these principles into account who is their job whether they do their proper it i think its not about together its not about the judgement its about not knowing generally its well its about is looking at your rules. And see what you can introduce in your Decision Making process to have at the end of the day better results i dont think that the end result is the effort off i see or see the process is the effort of i. C. R. C. Looking at what are the precautionary measures that you can introduce i give you an example. There is a big question today in our armed forces on where you introduce for instance the lawyers the practitioners in the Decision Making process you can introduce them at the beginning you can give them a last word at the end whether a military attack is in conformity with the law you have different results you can for instance in urban warfare you can have longer or shorter or no warning periods for the civilian populations you have a lot of things you can do went which are completely below the rather screen of public controversy i think we have to go to the granularity of each and every issue and also to recognise there is nothing like virginity in in war it is always complex the balance is difficult and i think its about how do you. When you do reviews where you are to training when you to manuals how and what do you train to your troops but i think its also important to sort of call her spade and spade and throughout this conflict where hard times and times again that assad is killing his own people its a trial now that the Syrian Government is going on you hear it. But not from us. I mean the youre dealing with the conflict as it is not just as it relates to you but the in all its complexity and some forces like the Syrian Government have to deal with with the security challenges or bully other sides like the United States for example may authorize convert operations which may. Do a lot of harm to this issue in population but make it much less visible thats why im asking you who is there to judge whether the laws are applied fairly because you know that western powers for example made it part of their policy to diligent the mise the Syrian Government because of those allegations that the use of force that the disrespect for the humanitarian law is all abundant in syria with regard to i. C. R. C. Israel our role is not to judge our role is to facilitate a better implementation and to support states who have signed up to the Geneva Conventions in their effort there are as you know national and International Accountability structures which are here to deal with violations with serious violations with war crime with crimes against humanity you know what these structures are but deliberately i. C. R. C. Has stood the way from accountability processes i think still today the prevalent accountability has to rely on the national processes on the processes within armed forces to see whether their directive and their instructions have been respected and in case you also know that there is an International Criminal court there are procedures internationally to deal with war crimes and crimes against humanity but theyre only deliberately there are 2. With regard to the respect of International Humanitarian law and ours clearly with regard to our mandate from the Geneva Convention is the one on supporting and facilitating implementation and this is a different pathway i believe that except let me ask you then a specific question because there is one battle been constantly. In the syrian the war im talking about the battle over in flip and i heard you say that due to the interrelatedness between the civilian population and the rebels you personally cannot imagine how a lawful war can be waged in lip. Are you saying that an alternative that is living the situation as it is where towns of thousands of extreme as i mean terrorised by un stand there its waging attacks on the military on this of alien population in the state controlled areas is a better outcome should they should these guys just be left to their own devices when we will create for highest precautions in context were civilians and military is ours so we intertwined them when civilian and military infrastructure are so intertwined i think this is really the time for. Negotiations for. Alternative solutions you have seen for instance in the context of for their poll that the Russian Military negotiated for quite some time the evacuation of city there are no other areas these people could be evacuated to unless there are example switzerland wants to take their men this is exactly what the goshi ations are here for and i think it is important that even in the context of International Humanitarian law one in view of the prevalent risk such complex situation in oregon warfare be it most school or easily eventually in the future that space is given to a turnip if solution to a massive military attacking or you know of a nereus we dont see that. This should not happen but what we do see is that appropriate time and space has been given has to be given in order to find alternative solution for civilian populace whats left of our we have to take a short break now well be back in just a few moments stay tuned. Reduced to 6 physics is nothing but the harmony you can create on vibrating strings but its chemistry chemistry is the melody the melodies you can play on strings what is the universe the universe is assumed when the strings. Welcome back to worlds apart the president of the International Committee of their brother crossed mr miller just before the break we were talking you were talking about. The importance of negotiations and allowing safe spaces especially for the civilians and this is what has been done in the context of bleep for at least a year now but during that time the territory controlled by the new reincarnation. In the province has increased from some 57 percent to around 4045 percent and these people continue launching attacks and harm the civilian population elsewhere when you advocate for that for that small process for essentially ignoring the military necessity because there is the military need to take them out indirectly privilege joining the civilians in rebel controlled areas it is part of International Humanitarian law that there must be reasonable balance between military necessity and the protection of civilians if in the context like youd leave the protection concerns are so. Visible so great and so preponderant it is important that in the balance is is factored in we cant have rules of war and International Humanitarian law only following the logic of military necessity thats the very essence we cannot on the our it all together no you certainly cannot ignore it and thats our point all together as you may need here in organization and as guardian of the Geneva Conventions that we are trying to see through dialogue through your many tarion activities that we offer space also for these ponder ation to be done that we try to be and to advise. Countries and to cross sexually and globally also to all learn from one battlefields to the other what precautionary steps can be but we dont exclude military operations its the very essence and difference between the humanitarian and the Human Rights Organization now a few years ago i heard you say that the conflicts in syria and iraq allowed the i. C. R. C. To develop a more sophisticated methodology for distinguishing between civilians and combatants are you still confident that you can do that especially in the syrian context and especially as it relates to your mind there is an younger man who may not have reached 18 young but her have been trained by their fathers to kill or who have witnessed killing i mean from a humanitarian point of view theyre theyre civilians but from a Security Point of view they are present imagine bigger risk than their elderly grandmother syria have to agree to that well the i. C. R. C. In the customary International Law studies has proposed to deal with the distinction of combatants and civilians and we have always maintained that it is the direct participation. In the media sea of direct participation which make a civilian the combatant and make the civilian lose its status so whether. Somebody is a minor but is carries a gun and is involved in a military operation though he loses civilian status when he is a minor according to the Childrens Convention then we still have a preference to look at also as victims who have been drawn by. Into this situation so its upon the ration of the concrete realities that we have to be able to do at the present moment but i do not neglect. The the fact that a lot of young men below 18 have been weapons bearers in some of these conflicts and has been involved is a big challenge to International Humanitarian law it takes away a certain stability that the International Humanitarian law had been previously in into a state of war fear and this is of course the new battlefield reality which is of concern to us now i think its also a challenge to your combatants you personally called for what you say is humane treatment of former combatants and subjecting them to a fair trial. How confident can you be in that somebody who invested 5 or 70 years of his life fighting alongside isis witnessing and participating in all the atrocities can ever become a former combatant. Well look our experience over the last decades and i would say over the last 100 years of clearly demonstrated and shown where the day yard prisoners of war combatants who came into the attention of state or nonstate armed groups that ill treatment of these people will lead to another sort of cycle of violence i think your main treatment of detainees is absolutely essential to break the vicious cycle of violence and to reintegrate those who have been involved in unlawful operations are brought back into society i think its evidence speaking about bringing them back to society its not a secret that there are now major tashas between the United States and europe including russia about what has to be done to those 5 areas and the United States wants them to be repatriated many western countries despite their normally very strident stance on human rights are not eager to do that the preferred option is simply to dump them in syria and i think thats partially because of the fear that their Legal Systems could train them to leave me in plea and that they could present a security challenge in the years to come dont you find that perhaps this is this is a bit ironic that this is what the syrian war has come to after years of lambaste in the Syrian Government for its choices western governments who now have more resources more advanced Legal Systems are not really eager to set an example and treat those combatants humanely and subject them to a fair trial well you have probably heard myself and i. C. R. C. Institutionally you have ok thing for all the countries who have detainees or have families off detainees in the camps at the present moment in in in syria may. Kolby efforts to pick their people back this is because theyre not feeding your calls so thats well we have 74000 people in the whole 6 months ago we have 68000 of the present moment there are around 11000 of foreign nationals most of whom are believed to be former isis fighters nobody wants to know what is rushing to take them all nobody is rushing to take them home because exactly of what you mentioned our argument is more humanitarian when i look at the situation in the camps for families when i look at the detention situation we do advocate that those countries will have the economy the possibility to do so and have popped probably despite all the security challenges still more leverage to do so help in voiding some of those camp or at least easing the pressure i think we have still 30000 syrians we have still 30000 iraqi in and nationals in the camps of the 4 of the families and i think it is much more difficult to repatriate those people in the complex and the fragility of the syrian and iraqi context today and thats the reason why i have always advocated that you would appear in countries and others make an effort to ease the tension and to allow a better stability also in terms of humanitarian assistance in the be asked specifically about the whole because the station there may become even more precarious with the recent announcement of the american pullout and then looming turkish a fanciful on the areas that are. Still controlled by some of the kurdish groups do you have any concerns about what may transpire in part of Northern Syria in weeks and months to come well obviously we are concerned by. About is there there by the new situation at the present moment we are the situation is much too fluid to even say whether yes or no we do have access in the in those areas which are now. Under control of the Turkish Armed forces but i feel. The next few days have 1st to give us a clear picture on what the humanitarian impact is and then also to materialize and to see what are the avenues with which on which we could have access but this is so certainly our determination to continue the work we have done in the past and we hope that all the parties involved with more for us access is and as we know the situation is as complex as ever in the north east and north west of syria now i heard you say in one interview that what distinguishes the syrian war is the sheer scale of destruction which will make life difficult for people for years to come when the white house still it is hopefully sees what do you make them of this very open very deliberate sabotaging of the iraq instruction operated by western governments and the tying of. International record structure of funds to specific political outcomes i think its fair well you know the debate on the reconstruction riches has been forth in the open and which is basically a big debate which is not that the core of i. C. R. C. Is preoccupation that we are engaged in your many tyrian their efforts at the present moment and 1st things 1st i think looking at the dimensions of people displaced within syria and in the neighboring countries what needs to be done 1st is really to bring back basic services to syrian blood. Is to syrians as we interpret those basic services to people is very much still part of a basic humanitarian agenda its now believed taishan of basic services afterwards its a political decision on whether mario should recognize that their ability to bring those Services Back to pass on the availability of funds and in one of his recent interviews James Jaffrey the u. S. State Department Special representative to syria openly bragged about quote having blocked all reconstruction assistance from anywhere including the un d. P. World bank any place anywhere inside assads part of syria is that not a continuation of war by other Means Development funds and reconstruction funds have been political for. Care international for Even International funds your words come. Un d p operates under political conditionalities you have to make the difference i think the concept of International Aid efforts is to distinguish between your many tyrian and very happily taishan efforts which are part of unconditional funds which are available in syria to which. Countries in europe and the United States and elsewhere contribute it is kind of an artificial. The bait that is taking place internationally because i think there is a concept to be to have more read happy taishan and more humanitarian funds for c. If you have the present moment when you look at the reality of syrians thats not big reconstruction that will happen tomorrow all what they need is schools still function is hospitals to go back to function is water taps have again clean water and this is very much into reality of what we would call your money and be happy. And for these efforts i feel there are International Funds available but i agree with you for it is of utmost importance that our donors and International Donors are flexible enough to address immediate needs of syrian so that they can go back to their homes they can restart a normal life wherever it is possible in syria mr maher its always a pleasure talking to you thank you very much. I encourage our we are sick of this conversation going in our social media pages and health to syria gal same place same time on worlds apart. Our own. Backyard. Just saw. The film for the 1st to see the float. All over. The los lobos the both of us looking at it all over t. V. U. S. And canadian investigators are due to whine about the sight of wednesdays passenger plane crash in tehran on irans invitation well look at the spiraling speculation around the problem. Also this hour the u. S. House of representatives from both to limit the damage from time for you to take further military action against iran but its unclear whether the resolution will pass the senate and. Its. Paris police fired tear gas to Disperse Protesters on a 6 week of mass nationwide strike or pensioner