But i believe that these resolutions also go beyond the symbolism he you mentioned that this is not just a symbolic event but this was passed as in the form of simple resolutions which are known by having and i assume no one executive will what exactly do you think the passing of these documents is going to achieve in practical terms of apart from perhaps raising present on present day are the ones Blood Pressure there are a few ways in which these are important for the longest time in the United States whatever the issue of the Armenian Genocide it has come up on matters small and and and less small the issue of the fact that there is no congressional recognition of the crime or there is no federal recognition of the crime has been used against anyone for any form any effort to meaningfully commemorate the genocide the National Level to give one example. Library of congress which is the you know one of the largest libraries in the world does not list genocide as a crime and listed as army massacres and the reason for that is there is no congressional recognition more significantly there have been several lawsuits filed in particular in california but also elsewhere where the reason one of the important impediments for these lawsuits to move forward pertaining to the army and genocide has been the fact that there is no recognition into United States of this crime so i do believe that although these resolutions are nonbinding as you mention they also carry a lot of significant weight and im not even talking about additional dimensions like education creating awareness etc now i mentioned the president to go on and he has already threatened to shut down the interlake airbase which costs the u. S. Nuclear warheads and it is threats like this that prevented previous american president s from throwing their full support behind the genocide recognition even though some of them like i think president obama seem to you jane you know we believe in if where does President Trump stand on this while it is but i would like you know over the past particular over the past week there has been a lot of speculation about President Trumps position particularly some Media Outlets the b. B. C. And others have reported as if President Trump refuses to acknowledge the army and genocide. What has been what we know as far as the administration is concerned is that the administration has not changed its position and the position of the administration has been and it is reflected on every year in their april 24th statement has been that this is one of the greatest crimes off the 20th century more than a 1000000 a half army as have been killed all kinds of other words have been used however the term genocide has been avoided as you pointed to one of your articles day. There have been a number of resolutions like these before but not of them actually reach the floor usually collapsing on depression from the white house the fact that the Trump Administration allowed these to go that far is that aside that if care is their immediate issue or that it doesnt give a hoot. Well i think theres theres a different way of looking at this and its a following right. India aftermath of recent developments in the context of u. S. Turkey relations which are at a low point. What has happened is that there has been the usual for the House Resolution the usual pressure that comes from the administration. Was not really as political for a number of reasons one is practical right the house was dominated by a democratic majority so the white house most likely dont want to fight a battle that it knew is not going to win at the same time its important to note that in the senate it was a different situation you do have a republican majority and the white house did try you know twice to stop it 3 times to stop it and then at some point. That was not tenable either for a couple of reasons one is that. This is not. 2000 this is not the 1990 s. This is not a period where you know the scholarship awareness of the Armenian Genocide nationally and internationally has reached this level so its very difficult to really for congressman for senators to come out and say you know what you know is there are there are we dont know the history we dont you know so that that those days are gone i heard you say that this issue has long been turned into a political bargaining chip to be used by both the americans and the turks and you actually suggested that washington quote has exploited and weaponized Armenian Genocide resolutions tea extract concessions from. On other fronts who do you think is gaining and who do you think is gaining watch from these particular resolutions there typically was a veto for lack of a better term here against resolutions recognizing that the genocide because of the United States and the circulations and the fact that turkey is considered to be an important ally what happened over the past couple of months is that that veto became untenable for a number of reasons on the ground which essentially created the possibility for this of a solution to pass in a congress in the house and the senate that already has been very open to acknowledging darlene genocide and constantly been forced to defer to the president on issues of Foreign Policy know who benefits most on this i believe that 1st and foremost i believe that justice and truth for the Armenian Genocide in general a more open confrontation with the past is the 1st beneficiary however its important to realize that this is not happening in vacuum there is a political context and political consequences for this you mentioned the truth essentially is a ban a fish area but there are also some suggestions that congressional leaders past the resolutions as a bit of a ratchet beautician for ankara is going to have to be at the offensive and Northern Syria if thats indeed the case isnt bad enough wrong to the memory of those who perished in the massacres and internment camps isnt it more respectful to say nothing about their dad than commemorate them out of political necessity or political advantage and so there is one way of looking at this which is the following right in the house the democrats were unhappy with trump and were unhappy with turkey and thats why the resolution passed in the senate that the republicans were more unhappy. With turkey then they were happy with trump and thats why the resolution passed but this is i think one way of looking at this it removes from the equation decades and decades of activism that kids and decades of involvement in engagement by i mean americans with their representatives many of whom have been part of this struggle over the past decades and many of whom have been willing to push for disaffected mission and when things lined up and the opportunity opened up that resolution was passed no again its very difficult to parse through which element which piece of this is you know is taking advantage of political circumstances which part of it is purely motivated by justice but ultimately beyond motha motivations i do we can question the motives of anybody but at the same time beyond all of this the outcome of this next year 10 years from now 20 years from now is going to be the fact that the United States is now standing alongside more than 30 other countries on the right side of history now you know that the turks themselves dawned really question that the hundreds of thousands of armenians laws die lives in night in 15116 during their forest departed ations but they do dispute the scale of the death toll as well as the primitive taishan to kill the systematic state effort behind it so why do you think it is so important to pin down on these i mean because. I mean looking at it from from from a side it looks like its not going to make the relationship between the turks and their menials any easier yes no it is 20 years from now 20 years ago it would have been much easier to say the turks turkey have this particular position on the army in genocide today things have changed secure. For a number of reasons 1st of all the turkish states position has shifted because outright denial of mean genocide the position that they had decades ago which was essentially not only denied the fact that there was a genocide of the armenians but also accused armenians of having committed genocide that untenable position has shifted because its untenable at the same time other developments have tried to transform turkey in small ways but in ways that is difficult to turn the clock on for example Civil Society publications on the genocide that over the past couple of decades have. Thousands upon thousands of turks and others some political dimensions related to the particular to the main kurdish. Party in turkey all of these things have transformed the turkish landscape and i believe that today anyway it is important you know any pressure. Any effort to raise awareness of the genocide is actually on the longer term can be helpful when the issue off the Armenian Genocide is discussed it especially by politicians it is usually treated as as a standalone devoid of the Historical Context a context which in my view at least is absolutely vital in understanding the genesis of those mass atrocities i mean the sitting mass expulsions of muslims from the balkans their resettlement in the natalia the resentment of income inequality that existed between their medians and their newly relegated muslim neighbors arent all of these contributing factors lost in todays geo political bickering. But look ultimately i believe that scholarship is at the foundation of any kind of full reckoning of the Historical Context right and i believe that that you know scholarship evolves not by some kind of the way it is framed right now in politics particularly in turkey where the turkish prime president would say you know lets bring you know churches scholars and other scholars and have a Historians Commission to discuss this right this is not some kind of street fight where we bring people and you know make them clash scholarship evolve over over years over decades and it has its own dynamic of engaging and deep going deeper and deeper into. The historical dimensions of any crime the elements that you you mention for example the hundreds of thousands suffering of hundreds of hundreds of thousands of muslims who were kicked out of the balkans and elsewhere the suffering of the Ottoman Empire itself tremendous suffering within the Ottoman Empire and were one all of these things are not 1st of all theyre not caused by the armenians 2nd of all this is not you know addressing you know the fact that there is a. Major crime the genocide that took place during world war one in the context of tremendous suffering is in no way an effort to undermine professor im not talking about undermining but i would think that the ultimate purpose of the genocide recognition is not condemnation precisely because the fact that turkey read jaggs the charges or genocide so vehemently is itself a sign that it finds them horrendous i think the ultimate purpose is making sure that the social and the political day now makes that precipitated those mass atrocities i fully understood not only by scholars but by people on the street then that Something Like this never happens again do you think by putting the blame squarely on the turkish state you can actually achieve that. The purpose is also some measure of justice right in in 1965 when. Commemorating the 50th anniversary of the i mean genocide when tens of thousands of armenians in virtually every major city in the word got on the streets and started demanding justice and recognition right their intention was to find some measure of justice to this tremendous dispossession and destruction of an entire nation and in that sense i believe that but at that point you know bringing this issue on that you know in turkey and bringing it up and discussing it was impossible so what happened armenians survivors descendants of survivors of armenians all over the word right they turn to their own respective countries asking for that kind of recognition from their respective countries and so this is an important element of this so yes recognition is a lot about prevention the recognition is important in terms of thinking and evacuation for turkey is also important in order to break the cycle of violence that has haunted the country for for generations now but ultimately it is also about the victims and here its important if the victims. For the victims just as important acknowledgement is important more power to them professor martin we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. In the United States president ial candidates debate the future of the u. S. And the world. Max kaiser and stacy her but dig into the burning questions of this election cycle oneself every week. Tax student debt trade was money universal basic. And. Catch up with whats front running this sunday exclusively on r. T. Same hammer i can use to smash someones head is the same hammer i can use to build them a home but thats a human choosing what to do with that thats me expressing my values for the tool and thats what we need to do with Artificial Intelligence as well. Brothers soon will i do in the room light of. My limited role more than i was sentenced to die in prison by the exposure love my life. Case to grab some Media Attention and its a shooting in a 16 year olds to 16 Birthday Party found citing the police just held a lot of pressure. To close the case. For me is. Just wrong its like i couldnt believe those hired. Me out so far they are all more than the sure dont want peace be with us to all of those shoes because i will stay right next to. Me for eyes because you guys need a model for the doing those 1617 years old so. This could lose one boozer lives is plundering his fear of them both of them tonight who food really. One loses close to. The other groups will know the truth. Welcome back to worlds apart with more i dont like your in turn south asian and African Studies at Columbia University professor maria down the the atrocity is against the armenians very well documented the mass murders forced labor internment day treatment was every bit as inhumane as the treatment the raw the mistreatment of the jews during the 2nd world war and yet. The jews managed to secure the label of john aside for their suffering as armenians have not managed to do that why do you what do you think is the reason for that. Well in fact you know in todays world you know historians scholars an overwhelming majority acknowledge you know the army genocide. Same applies to many countries including the United States but also many european countries. Of course and others i believe your question pertains more to general awareness of the crime and in this its important to note that oftentimes what happens is that it takes generations. For the survivors to actually 1st of all recover from. The challenges they have been facing and then you know rebuild their communities and then only start to pursuit of justice and for i mean is this took close to 2 generations now professor you mentioned the number of countries that do recognize the Armenian Genocide but there is one notable exception and this is israel in fact israel has repeatedly thwarted any International Effort to grab that recognition how do you explain that. Israel is indeed one of the countries that have not recognized i mean genocide yet. Other nor you know countries include the u. K. And others and in the case of israel i believe that this is. Major challenge for a number of reasons one of them of course is that. Up until very recently the argument was that wall even you know when the United States is is not able to recognize the army in genocide for Political Considerations imagine the situation of israel in the region and therefore the importance of turkey for israel and thats one of the reasons why you know israel is not able to recognize the army genocide other arguments that have been presented have been the jewish minority in turkey and others or to pass come a few years though many. Jewish american organizations and other organizations have changed their position increasingly on the recognizing their i mean genocide and within the Israeli Knesset itself efforts to pass a resolution recognizing the army genocide has gained greater momentum i do believe that this is a tremendously important challenge for for israel and i do believe that for a for. For the for the for the for israel that is that sees itself as. You know having survived you know for many jews having survived the holocaust and for it to have this kind of complicated relationship with genocide i believe is 1st and foremost a major challenge for the israeli state itself its difficult to sustain an argument that for whatever considerations political and other the state of israel is unable to acknowledge the fact that you know im going to have far means were killed and one of the 1st genocides of the 20th century now there are many. Witness accounts many of them coming from western diplomats at the time of the of the crimes against the armenian people and one of the most poignant that counts for me at least comes from british diplomat should bow who. Was a very respected figure at the time and who reported that the massacre of. 18 in the city in what is now the Syrian Desert was perpetrated by the kurdish on darmes and technically speaking they would be the ancestors of more than de syrian kurds do you think the