This division over a Single Person is changing in even damaging institutions is impeachment being normalised. Across talking impeachment im joined by my guest r. C. Maxwell in phoenix hes a republican strategist and the state director of the black conservative federation in washington we have Christopher Barron he is a conservative strategist as well as the president of right turn strategies and in st paul we cross to David Schultz he is a Hamlin University professor of Political Science or engineering crosslike rules in effect that means he can jump in and out in time any time you want by christopher let me go to you 1st in washington d. C. I watch some of the hearings theyre very boring frankly i dont really know what theyre talking about i dont see the purpose of it here but one thing that i find really disturbing during all of it is because i know a lot about. Ukraine i live in this part of the world i follow it very very carefully the people testifying about ukraine their ukraine firster as they dont know much about the country that thats a double whammy for me not only is that useless what theyre saying is useless but the outcome of all of this i think is a much bigger more worrisome picture here as the last line in my introduction impeachment is becoming normalized if you look at the founders who look at the. The federalist papers this was supposed to be an extreme remedy it looks like thats the longer the case and i really fear for the republic if this is good the way its going to be done theres no crime this is an investigation in search of a crime chris for go ahead. Absolutely look look were causing weve costly her during the 3 years of the term presidency this isnt normal weve heard here this refrain over and over again from the Mainstream Media of and from the left and quite frankly thats what they should be saying right now this is not a normal impeachment is an extraordinary constitutional process that was put in place not to hash out policy differences but actually to hold the president accountable for high crimes and misdemeanors even if we assume everything the democrats are saying is truthful which it isnt there is no high crime and misdemeanor here this is a policy difference and it is absolutely shameful that democrats are using this extraordinary constitutional process abusing this constitutional process to hash out a policy difference with this administration in r. C. In phoenix here i sometimes get the impression this isnt pietschmann for impeachment sake is this too is to damage the president i mean if we look at the the the membership of the u. S. Senate the Republican Caucus theres no reason to believe that theyre going to go along with this at all as a matter fact if there is ever as a senate trial at least trump and his people be able to call witnesses unlike the situation in congress right now without him ship i mean if we seeing a trivial as they shouldnt of the impeachment process is this is what weve gotten down to you cant beat him at the at the ballot box so you beat him through a fake and in pietschmann process go ahead in phoenix. Yeah im going to have to agree wholeheartedly i mean you can look at the previous impeachment proceedings in 1998 and nixon those proceedings started from an actual investigation and this iteration the investigation was supposed to be the more a report that gave democrats what they needed in order to move forward impeachment but that was a nothing burger so instead we have an investigation not an investigation we have an impeachment inquiry thats founded upon nothing ok david let me let me go to you in st paul im not even understanding i mean i know im a political junkie like the rest of you guys and most of my viewers here i really cant understand the rules because they seem is so intensely unfair i mean ill make it very clear and ive said this for a long time if trump is to be impeached for reason make it a good reason and make it bipartisan i dont see any reason and this is a totally partisan process something the founders never wanted to see happen go ahead and same poll. Ok so a couple of observations one historical i just want to bring up here is that think about it 77 Us Constitution is created we have our 1st ph that process in 868 not another one so 7498 and now now we have another one and so theres something kind of disturbing for those of us a little bit older to have 3 and keep that process in place you know with my lifetime is starting to raise a series of questions ph to process about the political process whatever babies and if thats what they keep they keep in mind here the 2nd thing to keep in mind here is is that the peach process if you look at the text of the constitution our constitutional law professor 2 doesnt have a lot of language it and the courts have largely said that Congress Gets a lot of discretion in terms of how to run it ph the process the reason why i mention that is that youve got people like Alexander HamiltonJames Madison and timing the writing of the constitution that set this is what is a political process or the criminal process of anything else and it follows i hate to say this the set of rules that Congress Really decides this was the fall so i know what all of us i get a lot of talks with United States look at will ask me well what are the rules whats supposed to happen etc etc i say theres an awful lot of questions out there that people really dont have a clear answers to and i dont want to quite say Congress Makes it up in the process but over time after for a peach with Congress Sort of mix it up a little bit as it goes yeah but david if i can stay with you here i absolutely agree with you but the way its being perceived by the public and i and theres been polling data on this is that it seems intensely unfair what is going on here coaching witnesses not allowing the of the of the other party to ask questions not allowing them have a point of order i mean it seems inherently unfair and i think people are beginning to see that i. I agree with you the congress has the right to make its own rules ok because its a this is a political process its not a trial that goes later in the senate but that this perception and i this i just think the democrats that there are so blinded by their own hatred they cant see that theyre really unfair go ahead david finish up. Ok so what i want to come back to and say here is that is that to a large extent i think there are there are problems in terms of the optics for a lot of people in the United States you know for the republicans clearly theyre not thrilled with that im going to say for people who identify themselves as independents i think theres questions here theres no question that theres a the see it part is a reaction to whats happening to the process here and i think one of the things you have to hold im going to try to put that best face on it you know and sort of hope it gets better is to say that with the now being televised broadcast now by opening it up to public scrutiny a little bit more public inspection it allows well for the public to be able to have what to be able to criticize it its a little holes or whatever it is you know or some corrections or worse really what im going to hope to get to you know ive got my fingers crossed here so will the. Crashes and i wouldnt i wouldnt i wouldnt hold out i when i got out i got im reading christophers mind across the globe right now you know why because i want to know where the hearings last week and then i turned over to see you know wall to wall coverage on bubba you know this is a blockbuster the walls are coming in and then oxygen is out of the room but no i want to say hearings they put me to sleep im sorry christopher go ahead go ahead chris no look i mean the at the end at the end of the day at the end of the day you know this isnt about life changing hearts and minds this is about reaffirming peoples already existing world belief about donald trump but theres not a single republican or independent who you know is the thing about voting for top of voter fraud whos going to be moved by this impeachment same think theres nobody whos going to who voted against trump who hates trump who suddenly going to like him as a result of this impeachment we were at a stalemate here and again i think the professors point about that Congress Sets these rules thats fine its not a debate about whether or not congress can do what theyre doing the question is should they be doing the. Is this how they want impeachment to be used Going Forward because the moment that you make this a political weapon youre the one you when you leave it now but the tide will turn and it will be wielded against you and i dont think we need to have impeachment proceeding and thats going to have remarking about it all rather than a man or woman Going Forward are saying and phoenix jump in go ahead just quickly i think thats the dangerous part of all this of real precedent is being set that you can launch an impeachment encourage without an actual criminal investigation i agree that you know congress has somewhat a lot to make up their own rules as this goes but precedent has been said that this should follow an investigation by either a special counsel or a criminal investigation we dont have that here what we have here is political theater ok. Go ahead david jump in go ahead. Act say that if we get to the grounds for impeachment treason bribery high crimes and misdemeanors again for good or for that trying to give you sort of a constitutional history here that we have a pretty good idea what treason is somewhat of a good idea what bribery is obviously the whole question is what is the high crime in this demeanor and its not necessarily the case that it has to be real it could be a lot of Different Things holdover from england that means anything it was malfeasance nonfeasance nonperformance corruption in office and i think the question in the United States is what is term actually the fact that we never. Success. Somebody you know. From office as president of the United States we still dont really. Go already what i did this year is. Candidate oh yeah well ill tell you ill but ill tell you what it is ill tell you how it will be decided ill tell you how it will be decided will be decided to focus groups ok because thats exactly whats happening right now i mean every single week its a new the goal post is moved ok and we know it was because of focus briberies more understandable crisper finish off this blog before we go to the break look at the end of the day we can have a debate about what is a high crime and misdemeanor whats the constitutional definition of it it cant be policy differences it cannot at a baseline high crimes and misdemeanors cannot be policy differences and what were seeing played out in these impeachment hearings are its a question of policy differences the people the career bureaucrats dont like President Trump policy in ukraine the democrats dont like President Trump policy in ukraine that cannot be an Impeachable Offense under any definition well unfortunately c c n n n m s n b c would probably disagree with all of us on this panel right now during this recording and i dont im going to jump in here were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on speech meant to say with our team. And were going to fulfill repeated promises of politics to the people and come out. There we will box it was really. Pretty rough. Now you want to work. I dont know. Paul. 5 is a tense situation in venezuela is still all over the news the problem in venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been faced only implement from the inside venezuela things move different were going to announce sanctions against petroleum to venezuela associated. In a school that have a son of a moment believe. That empathy that political battle to move the people of. The focus of the whose story is a new Nixon Henry Kissinger to tell him that he would not be tolerated that in latin america an alternative economic and social system could take hold and therefore the policy would be to make. The chilean economy scream so wants to make the economy of venezuela school. Welcome back to crossfire where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle remind you were discussing impeachment. Ok let me go back to david in st paul and im really glad that you gave us a very short History Lesson in the 1st part of the program here i think one of the obviously one of the unique elements of this impeachment effort is that you we and christopher alluded to it earlier is that we basically have the deep state people in the executive branch undermining their boss ok over policy differences or their vision of what policy should be nobody elected any of these people here and im sorry from as far as im concerned these people they were there are a Cartoon Version of what an expert would be critical in the country like ukraine in even russia itself here so david i mean this is a new chapter in pietschmann process in the u. S. Because you have basically state functionaries undermining the chief executive who was elected duly elected and sworn in as president of the United States go ahead and st paul. Well we have a couple of things that are going on here you know what about you know im not you know im not going to claim to be ukraine x. So in terms of whether or not theyre experts or not or whether youre right or theyre wrong i cant that this is not i feel its not my field of knowledge there but in terms of what theyre being asked to testify about i mean clearly theres a sense in which you know some of them are expressing disagreements clearly in some cases if you listen to the ambassador you know she has she has said that you know her concert was terms of whether or not perhaps there was any laws broken or the u. S. Is. Being compromised yes the president is going to make those calls and what i again maybe im going to sound pollyannish in this what im really hoping. Is that the combination of the house were and possibly a senate trial that this actually results of the size back to you or the legitimate meter ok on our insane let me go to you in phoenix here i mean one of the one of the most disturbing factors of all of this process here is that we have people whatever term you Like Civil Service deep state you know Security State whatever whatever your choosing is here they seemed to be working in unison with the media and the media is always amplified you know hes wearing a uniform sterling career all that i dont care about any of those things those things mean nothing to me or the former ambassador how did you feel what was your feelings i dont care about your feelings who cares you lost your job you know i mean when you were not had that pleasure of the president people get fired all the time obama fired every ambassador when he came into office does anybody at c. N. N. An embassy and this i mean see ever tell you that go ahead in phoenix i mean i think you hit the nail on the head mentioning how bamma fired literally every single holdover from the previous administration. Why so he can craft his own Foreign Policy so what you see with the goalposts being moved in terms of accusations to get the program to the president but what you also see is the goalposts being moved in terms of what power does the president have on an executive level to make sure that his diplomats or in implementing the Foreign Policy that he wants to implement i think the biggest mistake the democrats made was the impeachment to begin with but the 2nd biggest mistake they made was a charge creating this whole bribery thing this whole allegation of bribery now if you look at bribery bribery it was almost a good move from the democrats because initially they had this whole vacuous quid pro quo allegation but when you look at vibro bribery within the context look at adam schiff he took 350000. 00 from the defense and history and then pushed down to it for an expansion of the United States military presence so in terms of bribery its vacuous these experts arent experts they are defining terms what does it mean for ukraine to even be a u. S. Ally its all political theater and i think you hit the nail on the head with calling out the hypocrisy and the double standard and you know christiane i found with great amusement for my very distant perch here about the different channels back channels irregular channels well Harry Hopkins was one hell of a great intermediary for Franklin Delano roosevelt during the 2nd world war there were other cut outs the j. F. Kennedy use during the cuban missile crisis Henry Kissinger while he was National SecurityCouncil Adviser he kept everybody in the dark about nixon china policy i could go on and on and on ok its the president s Foreign Policy he can ask anyone he wants to be to be his be his representative. Correction go ahead go ahead absolutely. Or. President or. Elect. Elect we. So or. Just ross resident american for a while i think i know how to david i think or it could i think were quibbling here were quibbling right here i did i want to say i want no Foreign Policy will always be within the realm of bureaucrats then why do we need elections why do we elect a president then if the bureaucracy is going to determine policy now i disagre