A Kangaroo Court but one thing that kind of struck me is that how and i didnt know this i didnt know that the United States and ukraine were the kind of strategic allies that they were made out to be on National Television so tell me marcus when did this happen because as far as i know ukraine is not in nato the United States and ukraine have no treaty of self defense protecting each other and maybe none of these things exist theyve never been debated but apparently according to these functionaries thats what spoke to adam schiff ukraine is an important strategic ally your thoughts my friend. Well peter let me 1st of all to say this there is a clear sense of the little relates within the american establishment to some american democracy and this latest attempts to impeach donald trump really does appear surprised what is going on in america now turned into ukraines peter june Mikhail Gorbachevs tenure in the kremlin he once remarked that there can be no circuit union without ukraine and indeed that accurate statement by who will shortz can can be equally applied to the russian empire namely without the ukraine that could not have been as artists and part for centuries the ukraine has been of absolute importance to moscow but if in recent communist times and present day times however 8 ukraine is also of enormous importance to america because not only does washington carve it the same dust through an Agricultural Sector as or ukraine along with its black sea coast lines but american policymakers understand that by depriving the lusher of a close relationship with ukraine this will weaken europe and thereby we can in the worlds ensure pizza weve routes ukraine without a close relationship between russia and the ukraine the americans know that russia will never have the car if we want it in soviet times that is why the americans now have a foothold in ukraine and then not prepared to relinquish even if that means corridor hundreds of millions of dollars each year the americans know this shit importance of it and look at nato peter not only are they establish in a naval presence at odessa but theyre also establishing a naval presence at another very. Calls ukrainian calls. Also calls now that just demonstrates why ukraine is all so much importance to america ok who knows what were back of you and you can see that if you crane ever joint snakes then russia will be legally encircles on its western borders ukraine is the missing piece in the jigsaw for america and now its ok well clearly you know at the same time a new me if you going back to these hearings here if you got the impression that its the United States that has to prove its bona fide is that it is a good our why of ukraine its all upside down ok because we all know or anyone that knows something about ukraine knows that its really intensely corrupt number one and number 2 the people of ukraine havent been asked about this here ok i mean it seems everything is upside down its the National Security state that needs ukraine for 2 reasons to maintain it to maintain a rationale for its existence and to pointlessly antagonize russia has almost nothing to do with ukraine in a sense no and well as a tough 1st it seemed rather simple to be. Reflecting domestic issues so obviously if you can present ukraine as a critical ally thats a just neglect of ukraine or you know the socalled bullying or. Against ukraine or was merely almost a sort of treason so throwing away a critical or strategic ally in order to get an upper hand on the bidens now i do think it to rest and also as a Strong International dimension obviously so or older office in 2002 and then to his book at a summit right this was the main what americans were pushing very hard to get. Ukraine and georgia into nato but the europeans resisted knowing that yes this would be a strategic advantage or an expansion towards russia which would which could be a secure. Blunder yeah well the consequences would have to be bared by the europeans. This one has to create huge conflicts with russia so i do think that this effort to. Change the language in the sense of beginning to bring ukraine gradually in. Reflects something much deeper than merely this working against trump it whats really interesting here team is that if you if you kind of step back and you look at whats going on under the new president s alinsky he is making steps mall steps making steps to resolve the issue in the dharm pass it seems to me the american official them would be very happy with that they dont want to see peace as a matter they like to see this tension because they think it is a an impediment to russia an irritant to russia of course the people of the donbass dont simply exist in their minds they have no agency actually do have a lot of agency in it and over 13000 people have been killed most of them in the dark about so they know what this is all about here that dovetails into something that trump of said ever since that campaign resolving issues and i think that minsky and trump see each other is partners in possibly doing that not this side show that were seeing go ahead well you are right when youre saying 13000 people died and gone bust but you wouldnt know about it from the hearings you know i read the hearings and they see just inaccurate information. Of the state Department Says that ukraine isnt. Just its not just an abuse of power by the president but the harm he inflicted on ukraine a critical ally are the constant assault by Russian Forces more than 13000. 00 ukrainians have died on your cranium soil defending their territorial integrity against the russian aggression fiction well so 1000 people were killed this is the General Number of People Killed in Eastern Ukraine during the. Started in 2000. And 14 a lot of these people are civilians live in donetsk and lugansk killed by the there was no Russian Aviation there was all the ukrainian aviation they were killed by bombs and mystic cant live to the congress when he says that they died defending the only answer russian aggression this is just brute jury in fact you know hell know if i get a little i dont want so i have to push back but i mean this is a growing were going to look at going he says that and said this many times i mean and that made us the markets in london i mean these these hearings and they talk about American Foreign policy i had the strong impression that they were living in a time capsule i think they used the most regular normative cold war language and im going to agree with the me here i mean they have they have their lenses see russia and ukraine through a cold war a cold war a view that its not what reality is all about they cant escape their ideological obsession here go ahead marcus. Ok to our you sir hearings in america and in particular here is concerned in American Foreign policy but do i attach much importance i dont know any i dont know. What american politicians have to say or indeed american Civil Servants or planners etc no i dont i dont believe in reality politics and real politics is brutal politics you know the americans cared nothing about 13000 people havent died in the dark past it matters a lot to have been hunted starts and they care nothing when many but 1000000 Vietnamese Civilians died because of the american aggression all that matters to american policymakers is ensuring that the russia of today which because of latin music losing is a superpower again is limited in its power and the americans ideally want to do radio russias status today in the world as a resurgent great power and to do that the americans understand as they have since the early 99. 00 ceased when the credit became independent that depriving lusher of the close relationship with ukraine. Really limits russia and it threw in some our on the International Scene i met a pizza nato aircraft operating song q you could reach moscow in serious danger 20 minutes absolute worst of what hosts like booklet let me go to games that are going to go and hit one of the things i think interesting and they no ones talked about here is the. Silence came in as a peace candidate and then take russian candidate Everybody Knows that you know in one overwhelmingly 7270 something to present. The meet with the behavior of these bureaucrats is the railing that possibility make they want ukraine to stay in a state of war are complex or agitation with rush it. They dont want to see the end of conflict ok thats undermining his entire agenda here and one minute before we go to break well obviously they they they see the something as this conflict is beneficial in terms well for 2 reasons one militarizing ukraine thats this war against russia and pushing it further out of europe and the voters still on the most of the voters dont see it that way in ukraine we know that yes but but it depends on who was who is interesting or whether or not this is really in americas interest or because by by pushing russia out of europe its seeking now its new partnerships in asia so i think. This is a bit of a strategic divide in the United States as well what they should focus on then i think youre right to some extent does represent something from the pascoes russia not the soviet union or the russian empire its ambitions and ability to dominate the europe as are the whole continent is ludicrous these days so it is but they are creating a new alliance which should be concerned for for the United States and that is putting russia and china will go but it will go to a short break here but you know ukraine is in talks with china with its role in belt and this is something the american senators and the Political Class dont seem to be aware of and its very important were going to go to a short break about for that short break well continue our discussion and some real news stay with us. And were going to fulfill the promises of politics to the people. You know weve all but. Now you want to. Know. They. Put themselves on the line they did accept the reject. So when you want to be president. Wanted. To go right to the press this is what the 3 of them will be good. Interested always in the water. Welcome back across the uk where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were discussing some real news. Ok lets switch gears here damon let me go to you 1st here. Ive been watching the western Media Coverage of the military coup in libya but almost nobody says yes ok. Its its kind of like another one of these 2014 you know just went away morale is just went away. They dont report on the fact that everything that is done has been done to force them out and the political events afterwards who are against their own constitution against every single law when it comes to executive authority and actually legislative authority in bolivia but everyone in the media is oblivious to it as my fact its bipartisan its a good. Thing but it doesnt advance democracy there its only tree thank you for making that very good parallel with ukraine because when theyre talking about believing in washington or when theyre talking about ukraine my impression is that these are blind people a part of them is aggressive a part of them is less aggressive but they all dont understand what theyre talking about like i read that you know in. Which criticised their coverage of the ukrainian conflict they still say that John Mcwhorter each was pro russian and against ukrainian membership in nato or in the you know unocal which was not against it was for a compromise and he had to flee because he feared for his life he could be healed by the same reason with more on this you know they keep saying vote do regular very curious you know them for some reason he had to go to mexico and for some reason he didnt take the plane that well more or less said that if i took an american plane i would most likely land in one ton him or his words which unfortunately it may be true you know let me go let me go to marcus in london i mean the parallels here that we have been is weyl are really amazing except they didnt succeed in venezuela when you see the playbook it is exactly the same playbook you know these fake n. G. O. S here these fake human Rights Groups see you have election irregularities which nobody has proven at all theres been no evidence of it from the organization of american states they just said it ok and everybody just takes it for granted ok and at the same time the people who are taking control of bolivia have a deplorable record of racism against the Indigenous People where are western liberals defending these people theyre not there marcus go ahead. Yes i read the newspaper coverage in the paper its all the american engineer its clear lets be more specific the cia engineers coup against president morales and it made my stomach turn because conservative and liberal use papers painted can politique deceptive picture all events in bolivia a betrayed president morales as almost too radical as someone who falsifies Election Results and that is no surprise let me tell you this between 2007 i was a writer on tribune and the editorial line of tribune about time was one of jubilation at how latin america had largely speak in a letter to its socialist governments which wanted to really gain their Political Economic and cultural independence from america and who also wanted to forge close relations with russia now lost in 2007 i was the right it at the success of socialist parties across latin america i was a little bit more pessimistic or realistic because my opinion was that one day the american empire will shrug back america merican knows the u. S. Knows latin america like i know my at chance the american the americans are playing the long game in latin america they have penetrated in 3 institution in free country or even decades on that concert and they know this peter that yes they could be times when anti american governments comes of power but the americans penetrated the establishment with those ok you know it because its markets one thing interesting thing you again i absolutely agree with you what youve said and let me turn to going here. Marcuss description is perfect on the mark but he never used one word thats important democracy ok thats whats being denied here yeah and that tends to be the main visionaire is this could a tie or is the democratic revolution you know which is a new word which so to some extent legitimizes. And i guess you could have a reasonable discussion of whether or not. Not the rule of law would allow for marlice to stand for 4th term and you can even discuss this issue of were whether or not there has been any. Irregularities with the votes however a lot of these arguments kind of become to some extent pointless because marla c. Said ok well we can have another election we can have another Election Committee and we can also have it all under International Supervision the u. N. Can come and go through Everything Organization of american states was his mistake that was the recommendation by the american or all the recommendations of the organization of american states so essentially he said deliberately everything but but what happened while you had the military forcing him to go and pulling away all these political allies and the military kicking him out and. And then you have this senator. In the us who says. I am the new president and i guess it is the democratic revolution were just the rule of law and worse democracy because on his platform he put everything in place. Not just big back to ukraine but those to some extent what happened in the world which made this a deal really elections the. American states in believe it or played the same role as the e. U. In ukraine it pretended to be a mediator and in fact it was supporting one of the sides of the court and the e. U. Made it possible for them i dont regime to oust the legally elected president you know they just didnt all of them commitments you know the. You create the same story here when good moral discreet when the commander in chief of the army william carr a monk made the following statement we suggest to the president that he resign his mandate elo in the pacific asian or believe it that could come from general pinochet in 1950 there was of the same language but what is very important you made a very good comparison with venezuela you know the United States has been accused of a 1000000000 for 8 to russia to china or keep president morales in bolivia did not ask for aid from russia and china hes economic rather the record is very good even his opponents the indigenous speaker seed that small and Medium Enterprises fleury believe it was the poorest country in latin america he raised the work of people out of work so you cannot make the same because asians against you mr we make against one dural but asked for help and more others didnt and what happened to him so the same story as with colonel gadhafi in libya he did everything he needed everything in the asked the west asked him to do he designed and what happened to him more or less did not ask russia and china for help and what happened to him so next time when the United States and theyre going to say if an american states all the e. U. When they ask someone else stop asking russia and china and others you know stop asking them for rate that person will think twice before for when that advice workers living in london. Is absolutely right i mean poverty extreme poverty was tackled with Great Success under morale as well i really do worry because 1st of all you have the military its always dodgy when the military is c