You can sit in the former member of russias president ial council on human rights and Civil Society you can sit in thats good to see you again thank you very much for coming thank you for the invitation now many people good to see you again thank you very much for coming thank you for the invitation now many people. Very disappointed by your departure from the council. Very disappointed by your departure from the council on the human rights although apparently in the us yourself youre going to have a lot of sense of humor about on the human rights although apparently in the with yourself youre going to have a lot of sense of humor about that but before we discuss this lets establish the context because i know that for all that but before we discuss this lets establish the context because i know that for quite some time youve been arguing that the Russian Society is far freer and more mature than or quite some time youve been arguing that the Russian Society is far freer and more mature the. Its usually given credit for how noteworthy one its usually given credit for how noteworthy was was the summer of 2 of i was. In the past and as far as things that of the sort of better than the better give them credit for and theyve given credit for russia and Civil Society h. Are all in the russian Civil Society in not just Civil Society but society in general well on one hand this is not the 1st definite ill just Civil Society but society in general well on one hand this is not the 1st definitely we have were proud of protester stance and quite macmaster matterless but is that all it will is how will that help we must start saying 2000 our starting 2007 team and most every year we have more or less mass and 7 team and most every year we have more or less mass activity even. In very various press invention i see it as our. View them for without even for example 2008. Well when they were there when they were sort. Of old aniston sounds also we almost we had more market for our violence on the streets not on the streets not police much violence on the. Other. Otherwise inclined civic groups. Other. Otherwise inclined civic groups like the cause arcs they were much more violent sometimes than anything which like they cause arcs they were much more violent sometimes than anything we have seen in 19 and i would also like to remind that what ive seen in my in team and i would also like to remind that one of the very. Members of the president ial council for civil rights and all of the van members of the president ial council for civil rights left the council as a sign of protest for these things that were happening left the council as a sign of protest for these things that were happening so on one hand it was not something new and out of the blue because there is so on one hand it was not something new and out of the blue because the recession impression that we then remax the event happening it looks like all such an impression that we then remax the event happening it looks like all the people who are witnesses to it were born yesterday oh we are having young people on the street i salute people who are Witnesses Today were born yesterday oh we are having young people on the street i think its not just about the protests i mean we also had a number of high profile cases that think its not just about the protests i mean we also had a number of high profile cases that for example involved journalist yvonne we also just going to galvanize justice are for example involved journalist yvonne we also just going to galvanize just decided weeks before this outburst in most school that was connected with most closely to do it weeks before this outburst you more school that was connected with moscow city to do more elections we had this goal of keys we sure as talking surprise us which was a summer elections we had this goal of keys we sure as talking surprise us which was a surprise for me because i remember quite well when i 1st read the news of the journal the prize for me because i remember quite well when i 1st read the news of the journalist being detained with rocks i remember my idea i was on the council is being detained with rocks i remember my idea i was on the council then but i thought well this is these are media people they can defend their own their own but i thought well this is these are media people they can defend their own kind so. No need to trouble myself about it so i wasnt ready for the kind so no need to trouble myself about it so i wasnt ready for the magnitude of things happening that when they began to happen it was a magnitude of things happening that when they began to happen it was this time that society as it is was ready to read the sign that society as it is was ready to react to what it sees as on fear and unjust and thats in line with to what it sees as on fear and unjust and thats in line with what you have been writing about that starting from around 2017 theres been a short you have been writing about that starting from around 2017 theres been a shift in the polls in attitudes towards public protest i think the protest themselves have big shift in the polls in attitudes towards public protests i think the protests themselves have become more broad based its not just professional protesters but kind of lay man who didnt come more broad based its not just professional protesters but kind of lay man who didnt take to the streets before certainly new people keim to be protesters not just take to the streets before certainly new people keim to be protesters not just people we tend to notice young people more because wes is she them naturally people we tend to notice young people more because wes is she them naturally with the future with tomorrow but as far as we can judge by its a logical and with a future with tomorrow but as far as we can judge by its a logical data of the general composition of people out on the streets is made up of the general composition of people out on the streets is analogous to the demographic picture of society in general the media analogous to the demographic picture of society in general the media. 4940. But we do have people ages 4940. But we do have people who are not as you see professional protest as not people who have been committed to really google why not as you see professional protesters not people who have been committed to really going out since the middle of 2000 we have a new people out and this is it going out seems the middle of 2000 we have a new people out and this is a change and the process is that you mentioned is called by scientologists. And the process is that you mentioned is called by scientologists in the protest and this is a whim people not who do not practice is a shrine of protest and this is a whim people not who do not participate themselves begin to suppose that brought us to continue to self is normal themselves begin to suppose that brought us to give it to him with self is normal and should not be suppressed by the state this is red a new thing for russian Public Opinion and should not be suppressed by the state this is revving thing for russian Public Opinion because previously it was manifestly seen as a danger to the attitude of you because previously it was manifestly seen as a danger that the attitude of authorities. To progress until recently if this was also pretty authorities. To protest until recently if this was also pretty mild in moscow i think the number of green lighted rallies. In moscow i think the number of green lighted rallies has actually increased and as you mentioned before the overall level of street violence was has actually increased and as you mentioned before the overall level of street violence was very very low wide and all of a sudden in the middle of 2001000 there has been very very low why down all of a sudden in the middle of 2001000 there has been such a. You know strong belief of been such a. Strong belief of of the of the public protests not believed by the authorities themselves there were some of the of the public protests not believed by the authorities themselves there were some kind of tradition that in more school it is allowable for people to some time kind of tradition that in more school it is allowable for people to sometimes get out on the street at the same time since the change in legislation get out on the street at the same time seems the change in legislation that wars are implemented before 2014 the price of that wars are implemented before 2014 the price of unauthorized sanctions socalled protos became gradually higher more fines and sanctions socalled protos became gradually higher more fines are more days of administrative fair arrests and then being famous criminal code more days of administrative fare arrests and then being famous criminal code article 2 of 212 point one article 2 of 212 point one which criminalize us ruby to administrative have found during Public Meetings and really women allies us ruby to administrative her fans during Public Meetings and really as. The prize was raised by the authorities at the same time as. The prize was raised by the authorities at the same time there were some kind of understanding that people can sometimes do that what they were some kind of understanding that people can sometimes do that what changed is possibly what you call politicisation of protest changed is possibly what you call politicisation of protest so far. Protests were seen as local and based on some clue far as protests were seen as local and based on some concrete grievances like demolition of a building cutting down of far from crude grievances like demolition of a building cutting down of far they were seen as permissible but the protests of this summer war believe it go in there they were seen as permissible but the protests of this summer war political in the every sense of the world of the work well for me as a political scientist every pro this is a political every sense of the world of the work well for me as a political scientist every pro this is a Political Action because it entails a demand for push dissipation for political participation but action because it entails a demand for push dissipation for political participation but authorities differentiate between well kind of social or authorities differentiate between well kind of social or economic forces for protests and political there is nothing more political or economic courses for protests and political there is nothing more political than elections and these were about elections so oh without elections these were about elections so i know when we weve seen this our own goal of case the participants were not punished after when we weve seen this our own goal of case the participants were not punished afterwards be course according to our tradition the worst thing that happens is numbers because according to our tradition the worst thing that happens is not during the really itself not during the march or something but what comes after during the really itself not during the march or something but what comes afterwards the russian institutions are often criticized for. The russian institutions are often criticized for their rather. Image of nature and function and i personally see no problem with that i think theyre rather image of nature and function and i personally see no problem with that i think fake it till you make it is the best strategy for a selfimprovement as long as youre in fake it till you make it is the best strategy for a selfimprovement as long as youre faking something youre legitimizing the whole thing and im a little faking something youre legitimizing the whole thing and im a little bit concerned the russian authorities have starved faking or at least stop faking with concern and the russian authorities have starved faking or at least stop faking authentically the notion that everybody can participate in politics of them typically the notion that everybody can participate in politics i understand all the insecurities and you know that there are deep historic insecurities i understand all the insecurities and you know that there are deep historic insecurities about political or antigovernment protest in russia but still they have to its about political or antigovernment protest and russia but still they have to keep their appearances and all of a sudden they decided not to keep those appearances anymore keep their appearances and all of a sudden they decided not to keep those appearances anymore why is that do you think well their parents are kept in the sense that whatever why is that do you think well their parents are kept in the sense that whatever happens even if we dislike it then we dislike about what happens with the little email happens even if we dislike it then we dislike about what happens with the little limits of the law as it is we put the law is written in such a way that it allows great clerics its all for the law as an the law is written in such a way that it allows greek lexa t. To Law Enforcement so we didnt have any. To Law Enforcement so we didnt have any well. This was a specific early goal regime in moscow for example no no well this was a specific early goal regime in moscow for example no emergency has been declared so its all according when we are. Sure its our role that by calling to the written rules but insurance arising that retain our deference or for the powerball participation and believe that accounts are off the allowable participation in political life has been see that and at the same time their Human Rights Council alive has been seated and at the same time their Human Rights Council whose faith we are supposed to discuss has also been one of those decorated but not faith we are supposed to discuss has also been one of those decorated but not useless institutions elad to the question to ask and the one that they have been asking useless institutions eligible to question to ask and the one that they have been asking myself is whether we the Council Members who have been so active during those myself is whether we the Council Members who have been so active during those hacked sick summer months how weve been aware of that by our activity we had 6 armor months how weve been aware of that by our activity weve been harming the institution that we belong to be in harming the institution that we belong to and hiring on its. Should we have been more quiet tarring on its demands should we have been more quiet in order to keep the council intact or should we have done it in order to keep the council intact or should we have done what we have done in order to show our position publicly even given the reste of what we have done in order to show our position publicly even given the reste of of what actually happened now speaking about your departure of. Well what actually happened now speaking about your departure from the council alongside some of the other members whove been very critical about how they move from the council alongside some of the other members whove been very critical about how the moscow protests have been handled not only by the Law Enforcement but also now by the Russian Court system could protests have been handled not only by the Law Enforcement but also now by the Russian Court system do you take that as a kneejerk reaction to you personally just do you take that as a knee jerk reaction to you personally just being irritated by a sharp tongue or do you think its a sign of a more sort of systemic to being irritated by a sharp tongue or do you think its a sign of a more sort of systemic shift. Well it hasnt been just for shift. Well it hasnt been just for Council Members that were dismissed they have of the council the chairman well i mean all those full members that were dismissed they have of the council the chairman well i mean over there there is a legitimate reason of him reaching the retirement age you can ride it off out there there is a legitimate reason of him reaching the retirement age so you can write it off as something that could have happened but we in your own case its pretty as something that could have happened but we in your own case its pretty notable that somebody who has served on the council for 10 months is kicked out because notable the somebody who has served on the council for 10 months is kicked out because supposedly out of the rich asian necessity thats supposedly out of the rich asian necessity thats hard to believe well there has been there were other explanation and i must say that there have been no i to believe well there has been there were other explanation and i must say that there have been no private talks with me i must see it open and fair because its through another private told. With me i must see it open and fair because its true and no member of the president ial administration has given me preliminary warning warning or a member of the president ial administration has given me a preliminary warning warning that theyve been doing something over the top and that i should stop or so it was that theyve been doing something over the top and that i should stop or so it was kind of a surprise although it was at the same time kind of expected we kind of a surprise although it was at the same time kind of expected we should have been in a more difficult position had they had of the council been changed should have been in a more difficult position had they had of the council been changed and the composition of the council remained the same because working with the chairman composition of the council remain the same because working with the chairman you dont either logically side with is difficult you dont either logically side with is difficult on one hand the council is a Democratic Institution decisions are made by voting by them and on one hand the council is a Democratic Institution decisions are made by voting by the majority and we have the will the active body we did have the majority we could pass your 80 and we have the will the active body we did have the majority we could pass our decisions we could pass the corporations but at the same time os decisions we could pass the corporations but at the same time are the powers of the chair is our main. And of the powers of the chair is our main in our hands for example he alone of all the members of the council has a proper job being