Nations Security Council and devoting for war and the Spanish State sponsored violence in catalonia is defacto backed by the European Union well ask what it would take for the Pro Independence s. N. P. To support plus we speak to the lawyer of one of the democratically elected politicians being hunted down by e. U. Backed by machine for a hes told us more coming up in todays going underground but 1st we speak to one of britains greatest whistle blows katherine gun played by Keira Knightley in the new film official secrets souring refines and matt smith about british corruption of the United NationsSecurity Council to aerially bombard and occupy the middle east catherine welcome back to going underground so whats it like being played by Keira Knightley portraying the misery and pain as tony blairs alleged had been dry and try to destroy you for revealing that britain was part of a sinister plan to corrupt the un Security Council i never have to choose who pays me. Now its amazing shes a great actress and she portrayed it really well i think and you know she actually caused me to sympathize with her when i watched it you surely sympathize with yourself surely i mean you believe the plan was just spy a all in the u. N. Security Council Members and then potentially blackmail them into voting for the war on iraq that these 2 guys supported yes that was and that is what happened i mean they did actually send out you know send out people to africa to african nations to south america to have you know talk about withdrawing aid or giving aid and various things in the run up to the war there was a big campaign to get people on board to vote for this u. N. Security Council Resolution over this is this really blackmail and thats what the memo yes the erect there g. C. H. Q. Said because david oberland the former head of the norm in this show actually proudly about g. C. H. Q. He said. He said everything was by the book at him didnt ask him directly about what you did g c h q though there was some solidarity with the fact you blew the whistle on this memo that appeared in your outlook in books wow a fear of my friends yeah theyre still my friends and they do you know theyve left them saudis and so its all right for them to be seen with me and you know be in correspondence with me someone in this building has betrayed their government and their country other people who are still working there i dont know how they feel whether they support me or not i dont know but they certainly wouldnt give that impression to g. C. Educating your defense as portrayed in the film even well maybe you were on the red carpet with ralph with joe mcdonald shadow chancellor was saying. Tony blair is no war criminal. That shouldnt be arrested and your defense was this war was illegal therefore you are right i find that extraordinary you know i mean there are a lot of questions so that havent been oncet about why they dropped the case against me why they charge me in the 1st place you know if they were just going to turn around and drop it and the years they said it was 1st of all it was because. They couldnt. They werent convinced of a conviction. So they didnt want to waste taxpayers money subsequently they have said it was because i couldnt have a fair trial and you know it it begs the question why couldnt i have a fair trial what was what was their position did they actually think that what i what i did was the right thing to do. And in that case you know if youre logically thinking through those things it was the right thing for me to do and do they agree that the war was illegal that your took out the Public Interest defense yassar people and my fight was just next door people there know that even if there is a Public Interest in revealing the information they have no right to do so i have no right to do so and in this day and age where you know were talking about you know social justice and accountability and transparency you know these this doesnt set a good example above them beyond the legal. Inability for anyone to whistle blow they threatened you. They threatened your marriage and its exposed here that they wanted to deport you or as an act of revenge when you made your shot he had already applied for asylum yes which was denied. Yes and thats when you married him yes did he pay you absolutely no im sorry i didnt mean to upset you its just that your husband is muslim in the prosecution will be looking for motive my motive was to stop who and save lives i failed no that actually wasnt retaliation and it may look like that in the film but what happened was he was an Asylum Seeker and the k. At had been denied and so his case was moving forward in parallel to my case its actually an amazing coincidence that had i not been facing criminal prosecution at the time he would have been deported so its actually quite a. Nice bit of Silver Lining to this whole issue and do we move francos it is you wrote the memo that you exposed no i hasnt come out although there was a rather bizarre incident when we were in San Francisco about a time this year and after the screening we had a q. And a and there was this question and this this sort of slightly bent out of the figures that you may find that frank is hiding in plain sight this is the guy you sent to send emails saying the u. N. Security Council Members who didnt of there are a black man to support an illegal war. Jews think that do you think that today they would try and psychologically destroy a whistle blow dry just open the British Government trying to sex the case for war i dont see why they would do things differently i mean the. You know they sample of the iraq war the buildup to the iraq war the propaganda the lies have all been exposed now you know there were no weapons of mass destruction the u. N. Didnt authorize the invasion of iraq therefore the war is illegal but theyre still trying to 6 extraordinary that theyre still trying to defend. We employed to do i translated signals intelligence and i reported anything i thought might be of interest to my clients the Foreign Office the ministry of defense so you work for the British Government no not really no governments change i work for the british people so if they can get away with it then surely they think they can get away with it now i dont think it will change anything what was the impact in those rotating members of the un Security Council countries like chile which of course had the british back to the pinochet did they have a big impact or i think it did i mean yeah certainly in chile the chilean ambassador at the time he was very very distraught that you know this relationship he thought. Chile had repaired with the United States you know this they had open trade negotiations and all the rest of it. And to see that they were still doing this sort of thing decades after they had you know at kryten being created a coup in chile. You know supported a very. Appalling dictator that this sort of thing was still carrying on we know in effect from greg dyke the former director general that he was. Thrown out of the b. B. C. Effectively for doubting the reasons for the iraq war vet david over the head of g. H. Q. Pursuit david kelly. Arguably a whistleblower who of course died how do you think the film portrays kamel ahmed we do invite him all is the director of editorial policy now at the b. B. C. And in the film is shown to be someone who says your story should be recovered i think you know in any news room i feel that you know its right and proper for people to have different opinions and i think has position as perfectly clear you know he wanted to state the to be the sort of devils advocate has your light because everybody was so keen to get this story out here. Its just warning them you know. Just be careful this could be could be fraudulent however you know is it right and proper for a reporter to take sides on a war and that is what he i believe his position was at the time i think as a reporter you should always try to remain as. Unbiased as possible so that you can actually you know see things from a balanced point of view roots clear in the village you didnt leak the memo deliberately to the Guardian Media groups prowar observer newspaper you know it just ended up at a newspaper that supported the war now yeah i mean thats kind of ironic really but its a credit to the observe and roger alton who is the at us are at the time that despite the fact that they were probable they still printed this expose which was very much showing you know showing it to be antiwar from that particular presentation during the delay in publishing it helped to create this circumstances in which britain went to war in iraq in a you never know do you i mean this is the own one of the things im slightly regretful of that they have to go to such Great Lengths in in authenticating and what happens when that information is out you know that information comes out. The m. P. s and you know various members of the civil service. They are then privy to that information you know it is from that information that they can act and we have we havent seen any evidence that they acted on that information and that as want to disappoint me gingerly blair as to campbell or that bunch of people wanting the war in iraq doing you are more worried about you exposing the flaw in the official secrets act or exposing the fact what they were doing was tantamount to. Facilitating the supremum war crime under the u. N. Charter i mean we dont now i dont object to being asked to connect information that could help prevent a terror attack. Which they object to is being asked to get the intelligence to help fix a vote at the u. N. And deceive the world into doing to or it could be both you know i mean on the one hand they wanted to set an example of me they didnt want to have Intelligence Officer on under crossexamination. They dont want the official secrets act to have a defense perhaps i dont know and but ultimately i i really think it had something to do with the attorney generals advice or goldsmith yes theres no abundant on many programs talking about whether we should go to war in syria with iran is these are all very rehabilitated people which is a shame nothing will be rectified if these people are not held to account arguably you were luckier than other reveal a solve a legit war crimes unisom says is in jail in london but the United Nations repertoire on torture an arbitrary detention different repertoires are covered in favor Chelsea Manning of course is in in jail again refusing to. Destroy. Julian is. Things actually worse than when you were a whistleblower while they may or may not be worse but thats certainly not any better i mean i think. We this is an issue that is absolutely crucial it is an issue that needs addressing we cannot have democracy when we lock up and throw away the keys of the people who are trying to bring illegality immorality. Crimes and fraudulent behavior. Into the Public Domain i mean that is not a transparent liberal democracy that we are supposed to be living in but it wasnt long ago that there was a war in syria David Cameron tried to bring it lots of tony blairs old people in the new liberal new york part of the global labor party theyre all still there making the case for war hilary benn do you think this film is going to convince them so im going to repeat for me may be raw i really think that campian want timely moment for this film to come out and thats why im you know spending a lot of time trying to promote the film because i really think people need to wake up and and revisit the issues of iraq what took us into iraq and and actually you know i think seriously about what what are the National Interests i mean where we say we do things in the National National interest of National Security invading iraq has neither improved National Security nor benefited on National Interest of visual secrets is gone thank you thank you barcelona are on fire as spain jails democratically elected politicians for 100 goodbye years with defacto e. U. Backing we speak to a lawyer for one of the politicians being on the down and a member of the pro got a loony approach you as indeed all this it will go about through of going underground. Backscatter Survival Guide ecstacy just like all the starts simply that all these are. There are you going to get it back. Oh no good this is a repatriation scheme where we get the right to 70 years. Delegates every year thats kaiser for. Welcome back while brick city has continued to accuse u. K. Media over remain agenda the violence of pro e. U. Governments continues unabated with barcelona on fire in recent days after the mass jailing of democratically elected catalonian politicians im joined now by skype from inverness by the former as in b. And b. Who pull monaghan who supports catalonia Independence Bowl thanks for coming on the show what have you made of these alarming pictures perhaps not given that much up promotion on some of the mainstream channels the pictures a bus loaner and fatah i think its absolutely terrific this the images that were seeing are not of the on social media from barcelona but other cities as well across scotland you know kind of going i think particularly badly affected by the true toilet seat of the spanish authorities. I think its starting to consider the speed of democracy within the e. U. Is treating peaceful people and not sort of way and i think many many people are disappointed by what they see the Spanish Government says the catalans should have called a referendum live on the land wonderland the new European Commission president has dismissed catalonia as not a political problem when any pay a piece from spain couldnt turn up in the because they were in jail catalonia absolutely has a political problem a subtle problem for the sponge government as a political problem for the European Union to say its a political problem for the United Nations as well we have to be very clear here that the people of catalonia us with any other people anybody else in the world absolute right to determine the sort of government that they want to. Control their society the people of scotland not go very strong views about this ive been there are facing the referendum on the 1st of a. 2017 i spoke with confluence across the country and there was a significant determination that they wanted to control their own destiny they wanted to be fully autonomous selfgovernment theyve got a right to make a decision they had a right to have a referendum the spotters authorities i think are being pedantic an extreme by saying that its a feature of the spanish constitution if asked the case the spanish constitution needs to be changed to reflect International Law and i think that the European Union needs to start to consider the right state and the idea of all rights of peoples across the European Union and start to be a little bit more vocal of us this is a mall this fathers government on the treatment that is currently meeting at 2 european such as was the idea that. Confluence can be elected to the European Parliament and they may be diffused the right to take their seat i think it reflects very badly and the European Union the current leadership of the particular quality i think needs to take a long hard look at their behavior. Please their their views of. The rights of the people who have the un there when the illegal referendum the will of the people was in that catalonia how do you think some of the politicians are being jailed are going to be reacting to the i think in total 100 years was meted out to these elected politicians dont show the new any of them its not general franco is it so i think. Certainly playing a role in what were seeing today in. Barcelona props in particular i how man and you know some of the politicians that are not in jail i would question whether it was an illegal referendum ive said already that confluence have a right to determine their own future noxon shines an International Law and i think International Law all words usurps to made. To claw so they have a right to hold it i thought it done they have a right to exercise democratic free. To geo people for having done and i think reflects very badly on the spotters government all those in jail will not be thinking i think they will take the view view that they are standing up for their country their stonily got for rights it is a price worth paying freedom often doesnt come cheap ok but in fronts 10. 00 deaths have been linked to the g. L. A. Zone protests in catalonia hundreds and hundreds of arrests what does the e. U. Have to do to make you say you know what the s. N. P. Should be supporting breaks that well i dont think they seem people ever so who are. To be very disappointed to view the european cone shaped is a significant social life or we should all place one of the significant achievements of the European Union has called today is the fact that it has been all peace to you but its only one or perhaps 2 generations ago that is what he