ministration washington's gross interference in the internal affairs of this latin american country is risky illegal and the possibility of large scale violence is very real one thing is certain the people of venezuela will suffer the most. cross talking venezuela's crisis i'm joined by my guest of the go and your new york she is an attorney and author of a new book on chavez and venezuela confidant the of tyrants also in new york we have the nesson newman she is an author president and founder of the risk consultancy asymmetric a and native of venezuela and in london we crossed the francisco dominguez he is secretary of the venezuela solidarity campaign i know you to have to leave early during the course of our program so i'll go to you first here do you have any idea how the people of venezuela think about the likes of donald trump mike pompei oh john bolton debbie wassermann schultz and marco rubio determining the fate of venezuela and its people go ahead of a new york. look i think a majority of venice whelan's obviously are discontent with the situation in their country presently there's a severe economic crisis nobody can deny that there's controversy over who is the cause of this crisis how much of it is the result of the government's mismanagement and corruption versus how much of it is the result of an ongoing economic warfare campaign and the sanctions imposed by the united states but i would say overall majority of venezuelans reject international interference in their internal affairs and certainly you know trump is seen as he is seen around the world as the sort of . emblematic figure of what the u.s. capitol this class looks like someone who despite his rhetoric on not intervening in the affairs of other nations has clearly shown through his so called america first policy that america crush others first and when we bring back into the course the likes of john bolton you know a salivating a war hawk and others such as elliott abrams is a convicted war criminal obviously to oversee an operation of regime change in venezuela there's a lot of concern over where this is going now there are those venezuelans in the opposition camp that have been calling not only for the sanctions to be imposed against their own country despite the impact that it's having on ordinary venezuelan people but also for u.s. intervention including some of been calling directly for military intervention some people may see that their crisis has gotten to the point of extreme but often times they would forget that the u.s. military doesn't see colors or ideologies when they go in to invade a country or when the bombs fall they're not saying these are only directed at those that support the government so you know i think that there's a lot of naivety on the part of those in venezuela or outside of venezuela who are actively calling for some type of military action or who would have. flawed the likes of john bolton or elliott abrams supervising an operation of regime change and i think overwhelmingly that continues to be rejected throughout latin america ok when it's a new york i mean there was a widely sort of picture of john bolton with a legal yellow pad which he obviously wanted the media to say in the sea and it said five thousand troops to colombia i mean how do you feel being a native of venezuela that outsiders want to determine the fate of the country i think of i would agree with the goal and you know there's a there's a catastrophe being played out in venezuela and it's a poor governance a corruption a lot of issues but is does it need to be internationalized and have talking about five thousand troops in colombia is that the resolution that most people in venezuela want to see played out go ahead in new york hi thank you for having me on i disagree very strongly with whatever goal and are sad and also with your characterization frankly i think it's an insult to the sovereignty of the venezuelan people to have why the russia or the us are particularly russia depends there's any doubt as a u.s. intervention we have had decades we have had decades. two decades of horrors under the regime which i have well documented in dozens of dozens of articles and we had at other times of people who have been murdered what do you mean that no no admission on my question who do not know and he assured this is where you answer my question and i move on move on i want to see your thoughts on this release and. resolved by outsiders particularly residing in washington d.c. that is my question can you answer it please our country our our problems our problems are being resolved by us this is our constitution there were no it was never supposed to according to the constitution that drafted in one thousand nine hundred nine we. are abiding by its laws way that why the regime why do i ministration and the opposition is abiding by the laws that chavez wrote in one thousand nine hundred i would oh it's not let me and i do it all to me i've been president here you get there you don't want if you're not occur you don't want to answer my question you never are you don't want to answer my question i'll stay silent i will ask the same question to francisco francisco how do you feel when you see an outside power a superpower of the united states that house quite deplorable history in the western hemisphere when it comes to regime change in forcing political facts it seems like it's being played out all over again in light of all the other failed regime attempts that we've seen in this century alone we see iraq afghanistan we see libya we see syria we see ukraine as a matter of fact what's going on in venezuela now is very much akin to what happened to ukraine in two thousand and fourteen go ahead francisco. i think is absolutely a reach is the very idea that the united states not only organized and orchestrated the crisis or a great deal of the cross' the venizelos calling through through financial sanctions sanctions to strangle asian of the economy and so forth and then blaming the victim and creating the conditions internationally of a coalition of the willing to try to intervene in the internal affairs of an eternal big change in regime in the former we manner by identifying a right wing or opposition politician then getting them to actually declare themselves to separate themselves interim president then the united states proceeding to recognize it and then after that using all of the fall means you know just you need to mention only a day to know what i'm talking about in order to actually proceed to bring about regime change this is completely a rages and he means if there were to. get away with it he means that no government in the region whether it'll have will if we progressive or otherwise he say after possible successful operation in venezuela he's up to their religion i think letting the many have enough of these and most of the region regardless of political differences are very worried and extremely concerned because they know that this is what it means and they tend to most of them oppose military intervention and he said these great i must say these ok people from venezuela themselves i don't know what i'm saying about military and nobody is talking about military intervention except their own history well maybe john we're not only the russians john bolton that's talking about it here let me go to. five and five and answer is yes iraq sure is far fetched oh yes russia is all that's fine ok let me go to ever let me let me tell you let me get let me let me get a quote to something that john bolton said said two to fox news it would make a big difference to the united states economically if we could have american oil companies invest in and produce the oil capacities of venezuela so i guess in this sense bolton trumps pompei all because pompei it's about democracy john bolton honest as he is said it's about oil go ahead. i think it's clear from u.s. interventions around the world that it's never about democracy or human rights it's about u.s. strategic interests i think we need to go back a little bit in history because you know venezuela's has the largest oil reserves on the planet oil was nationalized in one thousand nine hundred seventy six it wasn't done under the chavez administration or majority but the oil industry in venezuela increasingly was being managed as a private corporation benefiting an elite upper class in the country and what happened was as poverty grew throughout the eighty's and ninety's so to dismiss widespread discontent and protest an economic crisis very similar to things we're seeing today just sort of on the flip side and so by the time chavez ran for office in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight the oil industry preservation of the state owned oil company was on the verge of being privatized the united states oil companies were the primary investors in venezuela that did not necessarily change under chavez initially but of course there was indication that it would as he began to deep in what he was calling socialism of the twenty first century and certainly when he announced a further nationalization of venezuelan reserves in the country that heavy crude they were calling him and that was actually oil you know in which is the largest place where they have the oil reserves in the southeastern already river basin that's when there started to be even more concern but even before that it was as soon as jarvis started saying essentially we're not going to allow that to be privatized our oil industry will benefit the venezuelan people and we will manage it that's when he was ousted in a brief who in two thousand and two that was clearly backed and funded by the bush administration at the time and in a similar effort as they've they're doing today with one guy though opposition leader you know the u.s. was the first to recognize this coup de facto government led by the chamber of commerce president pater carmona as the interim government of venezuela to call for new elections so you know that those types of interests have continued throughout. country i think we have to recognize because there's a lot of tension and passions around and there is a severe deep crisis in the country is very divided but one of the primary reasons is the fact that from the beginning when chavez was first elected by millions of venezuelans in totally legitimate and transparent elections recognized by the opposition those that supported chavez and chavez himself were never recognized as credible and legitimate representatives of venezuela by the opposition in venezuela that has continued to this day where they basically keep invisible the millions of venezuelans who despite the crisis they're living who despite would like to change and transformation in their country as well who may not necessarily even like nicolas maduro but they do not want the elite right wing opposition back in power and to become invisible once again so it starts with mutual recognition and from the point on we have. been we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on because we will stay with us. it's rather stand in here for most of. our those that are on mars rover and our brother in a profit off the fourth down to care of our. own lawyers and that competitor and i'm such a man you. can keep an eye on what i have to lose a child with a trifle that it. won't work then i'm all in my machine little subtle. mind. set up around the hey how you want to do it. and get this whole food place choice i knew where you're from and peyote chime in syria says. pretty she ought to have a. model for that in africa will fuck around with mr hates it for jim and then boil for hope that our family and of course. the money. that's good there's plenty of survival guide ecstacy just want to start simply. resurfaced. be sure it's still there don't forget the past. it's repatriations to look at the last seven years. philippa said as treasurer for. the united states can. use its tax on other country's. economic sanctions are often just the beginning another thing you like to do is play some military press countries. and there has to be an effort to. that country and the leader of that country. we have a responsibility for the. weekend to make rules for the rest. of us without us there. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter bell to remind you we're discussing venezuela. ok let me go to new york and go and you mentioned the nature of the opposition and how unified is it because i mean traditionally it has been like so many other oppositions in world divided a lot of egomaniacs why is this upstart been chosen and is he genuinely popular because from what i've learned less than twenty percent of the population never heard of him before he swore himself in as interim president so speak to the nature of the opposition go ahead but. great thank you thank you for that question and let me let me address it step by step first of all the it is no secret that the opposition had been very divided they the only thing that they could agree on is that they wanted men to go out they couldn't agree to unify around elections there was there were difficulties what's interesting about the figure of one guy though it's true that he was not a household name because he was never one of the leaders of the political parties but he was very well known for the two set thousand and seven students movement so we came out of the student movement that really brought the movement against against the chinese the regime from the ground up so he's a grass roots kind of figure and he was well known for that not well known to the international community but he was well known within the political sphere for that what has happened with why though is that what's wonderful about him is that he's young he's brown skinned you know not he's he doesn't look like a european to lead as he doesn't talk like a european elitist he talks like one of the people he's married has a couple of kids he has no corruption scandal he has no color as we say in spanish no tale so he's a fresh face on gone asked and what happened is that with those who he got elected to be the president of the national assembly because according to travis's constitution and all of this the been very careful to follow the chavez's constitution the opposition they they. churn a volunteer up allowed to have the presidency so within their ranks they chose one guy though because of this and now it presented an opportunity they didn't let me as money ask your friend now wait no you're not me and let me ask you to come on come on i want to ask you a question i mean why is proclaim. back a jury that i made it and it looks like he's worried that he has a looks like he has backing from no idea of the question about the size of the country i mean if you want to. apparently he was in the united states in december of last year negotiating this. shift in power or. you know putting into play a forced regime change plan i mean it seems like his backers are not. there outside your francisco value value way what we just heard about that with the amount of the people the terror that i want to learn i'll have meant yes yeah but they didn't pay for they didn't participate in the last election they boycotted it so now that you know they don't want to participate if you don't like the outcomes here let me go to let me go to francisco in london here scared me now i mean i am that i am i am the host of this program and i want to go to francisco because i want to have equal time for everyone it's not your show francisco you know what you're going to say if i go and well because she has to leave in a minute or so francisco you know is outside interference in venezuela what's really needed right now because should there be some kind of negotiations here because it looks very obvious that washington really wants to flip venezuela in its direction it's been trying to do it for decades now they have their man chairing and candidate in place their assets of the legitimate assets of the venezuelan government are being taken away from them under dubious legal pretenses here and funneling it into it seems to a private person i mean i don't know if that's that looks like corruption to me francisco and london how do you react to that. i mean maduro whatever anybody may think about the model of government model was made appeals for dialogue or more than four hundred occasions has been able to organize at least two thirds of dialogue sessions or periods most all of the both of which nearly produce good results including communiques in other words maduro and section the position showed that it was possible to come to understand the man to go call them to hold him to address jointly the problems of the country faces now this is the point in terms of externally interference all of those things are always torpedoed mainly by the united states using whatever influence he has and sections of the opposition in venezuela. took the matter to the organization american state of an asylum issue and it was defeated there where the majority of the countries that participated in the emergency meeting decided that they prefer dialogue and negotiation rather than confrontation and certainly the made it clear that they did not want external interference in the internal affairs the country because it helps an excess of a procession and compare later on after the three this later took the matter to the security council of the united states where he was also depleted and where the majority of the countries in that meeting took the to actually more or less the same as they are going to such an american state and we're talking about china russia mexico's of the africa and other big players so the united states actually totally ignores these recommendations these decisions and this defeats and continues unabated with their absolutely terminally fanatic regime change manchanda and all it's going to do is contacts us surveyed the situation in venezuela by making it worse if the united states really wanted to help venezuela what it could do is to lift all the sanctions immediately so the. poor people have been sort of doesn't have doesn't have to have to suffer that much ok i have a i know you going to have to leave soon i mean there was a there was a spanish initiative there over the course of two years to do you negotiate between the government and the opposition and at the very last after two years of hard work goodwill on the part of the spaniards the opposition just walked away why. well i think that that is very important the fact that madeira has been calling for dialogue there have been very serious negotiations ongoing between certain sectors of the opposition of course one of the problems as you pointed out before and was discussed with the other guest is that the opposition have been severely divided for years now they've rallied around this figure but i wouldn't say that that is necessarily stable at the same time their one demand has always stayed the same it was the same under chavez which is why they tried to get him out in a coup they tried to get him out in recall referendums they tried to get him out through various electoral processes all of which failed they tried also with support from the international community also failed is has been just to oust though that government hasn't been to negotiate to recognize that they exist that people in venezuela also support that model that ideology and these leaders. and then maduro no matter his failings i think that has been a key element that was what failed previously and that's what will fail again if there are negotiations and i think we can look to just that rhetorical extremist discourse of your other guest calling the constitution of venezuela chavez's constitution let me remind the audience this is a constitution that was drafted nationwide in venice where there was a constituent assembly of which there were members from all the opposition parties that participated they wrote the articles it was then voted on in a national referendum it was not chavez's constitution it is a venezuela as a constitution is the people's it was created by the venezuelan people the fact that the opposition has chosen recognize that constitution they have chosen not to recognize the government who we do east also and that they look to the united use meets for guidance they look to the united states for support which is why though came to the us first to make sure their backing is based also fundamentally in racism and classism and in this concept of. the u.s. is better then than the us is better than latin america we would much rather be allied and aligned with the united states than with our neighbors in latin america and i think that's key because one of chavez's fundamental. successes although now it's all falling apart was of course latin american unity and now we're seeing the opposite now we're seeing the countries realigning with the united states and so i think it's disgraceful that the venezuelan opposition looks abroad for support and able to overthrow their government they chose to boycott the last elections and so therefore i was elected by millions of venice and if they choose to ignore the majority of venezuelans in the country there will forever be and he says and let me go to business in new york keep going as a result as we speak right now you. i haven't asked michael what is your wish why haven't they asked my question yet please be patient all right please ok as we speak right now the four of us the venezuelan government has made it clear that it will stand by the government what is the possibility of real social strife a civil war again i point out with. bolton insinuates possible military action here that is not a good situation when we have the middle military supporting the government and a foreign power is insinuating that they may use military force against your country go ahead vanessa new york. thank you for having me on with thank you for your question frankly i don't think that that's going to happen i think venezuelans are very unified behind defending the constitution everybody every single discourse of the opposition has absolutely respected that nine hundred ninety nine constitution whether you want to call it job this is a constitution it's ours it is our country's constitution it is not in any agenda to disrespect it it is not in any agenda to change it we have never said that we were. it would be a change of the new regime that's not in the cards at all all we are asking is for the military except during two thousand to come out with a turn in the traffic that they have dropped it excuse me it is now my turn it is now my turn no one but us all has asked for foreign military intervention i know that because i say i speak with the opposition yes they have i am not a law and with any of the political parties but i have been i have it all been involved with this what has happened the latin american countries have been very concerned some of the neighboring countries because they have had violence they have had lynchings they have had shootings from the massive exodus of venice ones who are desperate to leave so for them it's a security concern and the latin americans have come together the lima group are basically latin americans with canada thrown in u.s. is not a part of the lima group and they have been the pointy tip of the diplomatic spear on this so i think there has been unified and when we do not we are not looking for some civil war we do not want the military to split we would like them to come on board and to support the constitution it is my country i do not want to see bloodshed i think we've already have time at the end of thousands of people have already died in the protests i was there in caracas watching people be crushed or i don't have any time sorry by the way you would have originated on that in a time that any fascinating discussion many thanks to my guests a new york and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t see you next time and remember cost something else. where you are you. still want to know most of those to be yours and yours was never good. it's not what you. believe the believe the ways though i did my best religion as the wife. left. me to see if there's one of those. girls from. politicians to do something to. put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. for something i want to. let you go i could be cross that's what i'm up for three in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters and the how. bad they suit. us veterans who come back from war often tell the same stories. were going out for the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either there already is several generations of them so i just got this memo from the circulated branches off that says we're going to attack and destroy the government and seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with them money on those without lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort for uneasiness for peace. days before withdrawing from a london market arms control agreement the us. going to produce a new atomic warheads it claims that weapon will help lower the threat of nuclear like. culture coming up in the program. president nicolas maduro accuses trump of ordering his assassination.

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