State of michigan saying, quote, make them riot. The Question Today beyond the Damming Narrative is whos listening. Joining us now, nbc News Correspondent Garrett haake whos in university center, michigan, for us, and nbc News Justice Reporter ryan reilly. I know the former president will be where you are, garrett, in a moment. Im going to start with ryan. As i said, ryan, the story here is not new. We know what Donald Trump tried to do around the 2020 election. We saw it happen in realtime. We had the January 6th hearings. There have been filings up until this point, a lot of them. But this new 165 Court Filing from Jack Smith gives us some more detail, more color, more insight into Donald Trumps State Of Mind in particular. What stood out to you, was there anything that was particularly damming . Personally, i think the volume of evidence of spreading lies stood out to me. That was going to be the challenge of this case. In 2020, i jokingly referred to this as the question of bad Faith Or Brain worms. Did he believe the ridiculous lies or was he saying this to undermine the election, and it was always really tough as garrett knows to get inside Donald Trumps Head And Figure out what he actually believed, but i think what they did in this memo is lay out a really pretty strong case that there were just so many Warning Signs that were given, so much specific evidence from different players that he had actually lost. Especially, you know, Mike Pence who was doing this slowly growing and sort of increasingly Pressure Campaign to sort of gently telling the president , no, they lost, up until January 6th. That was one thing that really stood out. And also, you have to remember that Mike Pence was also doing a little bit of a rhetorical dance in 2020. After the election, he was saying this thing publicly, and telling all of the trump supporters were going to fight to the end. He wasnt saying that the election was stolen. He was careful about how he did that. What this indictment or what this Court FilingLays Out is that Mike Pence was saying behind the scenes, and telling Donald Trump that, no, they lost, and trying to gently bring this up. That ended disastrous for Mike Pence, having to run from a crowd who was chanting hang Mike Pence because they thought he betrayed the country because of Donald Trumps lies. And the filing talks about how Donald Trump is watching fox news, Hearing People outside of the capitol saying this is all Mike Pences fault, and being told by his staff that Mike Pences life was in danger, and Donald Trumps response, according to the filing, was so what. What about this, quote, make them riot from a Campaign Operative in michigan . What is the context surrounding that, ryan . So its this little known event. It was actually a little bit of a preview of what happened on January 6th itself because essentially what you had is a lot of really ill informed people who got worked up on facebook, heard calls from michigan republicans, from The Rnc, from the michigan Republican Party, from conservative operatives to get down to the tcf center. Big picture, if Theres Anything i could instantly inform every american in the united states about is that Donald Trump did better in detroit in 2020 than he did in 2016. It makes zero logical sense whatsoever, that detroit is the reason that he lost michigan because if he had uphold the rest of the state, if he had done as well as he did in 2016, he would have won michigan. He lost a lot of suburban women in the suburbs, and thats exactly what this Indictment Sort of Lays Out, that people told him that. Detroit is not the reason he lost, but of course theres been this long Standing Thing within The Rnc going back to the 80s where they previously had these restrictions about poll watching, in particular, in quote, Unquote Urban Areas or what Donald Trump back in 2016, called certain areas. Garrett, Donald Trump is going to be in michigan, speaking of the state of michigan today. He has called this release of this filing election interference. Why is he so worried about this . Because, again, this has been out there for so long now. Reporter yeah, look, its a good question, katy. I think the details in this filing probably dont balance out with the angry reaction we saw from Donald Trump to it. Most voters who are, you know, particularly motivated to vote on January 6th or, you know, 2020 electionrelated issues have probably long since made up their mind, but for Donald Trump, every time this happens, he gets more and more serious. We saw in on an interview in news nation. Listen to what he did there, well talk about whats next on the other side . They should have never allowed the information to come before the public. But they did that because they want to hurt you with the election. Its pure election interference. Reporter katy, he sees this as an effort to muddy the waters here, particularly in a state like michigan which is already voting, Absentee Ballots went out last week. But, you know, in the primaries he was able to use these indictments, arraignments, moments of sort of introspection, inflection on legal issues, to rally his base, to force republicans whether you were with him or with the Department Of Justice. Im very curious to see when he takes the stage behind me in the next few minutes, whether he tries to do the same thing now, and enlists a common enemy or whether hes just angry. Katy. Well see about that. Garrett haake, thank you very much. Ryan reilly, thank you as well. Joining us now, new York LawSchool Professor and assistant director attorney, rebecca roiphe, and barbara mcquade. Barbara, im going to start with you. Part of the complaint thats out there right now is that the doj has a long Standing Policy not to get involved in anything that could sway the outcome of an election this close to the election. How do you square that with what Judge Chutkan decided to do with this Filing Yesterday . These are two different things, katy. The Department Of Justice has a practice that ordinarily new cases should not be filed or investigative steps undertaken within 60 days or 90 days of an election. Dont start something when theres not going to be an opportunity to resolve it before the election on short notice. This case, of course, was begun years ago. The reason we find ourselves at this point now is because of efforts to delay the case by Donald Trump himself. The unsealing of this document comes because of litigation and the directive of the Supreme Court that the District Court Judge in this case examined all of the facts to decide what is protected by immunity, and what is not. They are simply following that directive. And so to keep this under seal at this point would violate the publics right to a speedy trial, and the ordinary rules about transparency, theres no Sealing Order about protecting information that might harm a candidate for political office. Elie honig, who you know well, former federal prosecutor is arguing in writing today that this is malfeasance by Jack Smith to file this so close to the election. Barbara, i want to get you on that as well. The judge directed this be filed. This isnt the Department Of Justice deciding they want to file something just to get it out there in the ether. The reason we have an independent counsel is to avoid these kinds of political accusations. Jack smith is complying with an order of the court to move the case along and do The Next Step in the case. Not only can they not do this, they should not do this because a judge has ordered them to file this. All right. Lets talk about the substance of what we saw in there. There were so many times in the filing that Jack SmithDetails Conversations that Mike Pence had with Donald Trump where he was saying to him, you didnt win the election. Theres no more room to navigate this. Theres time to move on. I think at least nine separate conversations. The Supreme Court said theres a presumption of immunity around the conversations that a president can have with their Vice President. Do they get around that presumption . Are they able to rebut that presumption with all of the instances that they lay out with Mike Pence telling Donald Trump that he lost . Maybe. So, you know, we have to wait to see whether or not the judge is going to adopt these arguments or not, but basically what the argument was is that he was acting in his personal capacity as a candidate. He was being spoken to by all of these advisers in his personal candidate as a candidate, and therefore these are not official acts subject to that immunity but rather the acts of a private citizen. Even if he was speaking to his Vice President , those instances were instances in which he was being spoken to as a private citizen. The presumption ought to be rebutted, and instead these acts should be prosecuted. They also include Donald Trumps still not accepting the results of the 2020 election. Continuing to say that it was stolen from him, calling the January 6th rioters who are imprisoned patriots or that theyre being politically persecuted, they are victims, the January 6 choice, why bring that into this . What legal argument does that lend to . That is, again, i mean, i think part of this is that this is part of his campaign rhetoric, and combine that so theyre saying hes doing it now like he did then. Hes a private citizen now. He was acting as a private citizen then. Its in his personal selfinterest to say these things, and thats why he was saying it then and saying it now. If theres no Mike Pence that survives this, again, this is going to get appealed. It will end up at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will decide whether the conversations and interactions that Donald Trump had with his Vice President are immune or not, if that doesnt survive, does Jack Smiths case survive . I think it does, katy, thats because the Mike Pence portion of the case is only one of several schemes. Originally there were five. We know that the Supreme Court has removed the doj scheme, saying that that is absolutely protected official conduct. The Mike Pence scheme is another. But there still remains pressuring the state legislatures, the false slates of electors, and utilizing the chaos in the capital after the attack to continue to pressure members of congress to block certification of the election. Those three schemes would remain even if the courts would disagree that the schemes relating to Mike Pence are private and not official conduct. But i think the Mike Pence case makes it a lot stronger. Those individual conversations, having Mike Pence testify, clearly at one time Donald Trumps closest ally, to testify against him i think is a very powerful part of the case. Its stronger with the Mike Pence allegations in. Also the callousness that Donald Trump had toward Mike Pence, and they lay it out in detail in this filing saying that he was watching television, he saw a supporter who was outside of the capitol, potentially a rioters, saying this was Mike Pences fault, and mentioned the hang Mike Pence stuff, and Donald Trump is tweeting about Mike Pence after seeing that, he didnt have the courage to do the right thing, and also as were putting up on the screen, wasnt of the aides came in and said Mike Pences safety is on the line, and Donald Trumps response was so what. Legal little speaking what is the relevance to Donald Trump not caring about his Vice President . Legally speaking broadly, first of all, this is part of the narrative. This adds Detail And Texture to what we already knew. It goes legally to intend. What was he intending to do here, and that callousness adds to both that this was a personal act to advance his personal interests, and second that he had no loyalty to the office itself and to his subordinates but rather to himself and what he wanted to accomplish which was to, you know, have the presidency regardless of what the outcome of the election was. Rebecca roiphe, thank you very much. Barbara mcquade, thank you as well. And what the political impact might be from the special counsels filing with just 33 days now until the election, and the idf launched more strikes on lebanon, but its still not responded to irans attack. What will israel do next . Plus, the Vice President takes an unlikely trip with an unlikely ally, why Vp Harris is in the birthplace of the gop today, and what the campaign thinks it will get out of a teamup with Liz Cheney, we are back in 90 seconds. Back in 90 Ss T Indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. Six digestive symptoms. The power of nature. Iberogast. Hi, My Name is damian clark. If you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that youll definitely want to hear. Depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a Humana Medicare Advantage dualeligible Special Needs plan. Most plans include the humana healthy Options Allowance. A monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and overthecounter items. The healthy Options Allowance is loaded onto a Prepaid Card each month. And whatever you dont spend, carries over from each month. Plus, your doctor, Hospital And Pharmacy may already be part of our large humana networks. So, call the number on your screen now, and ask about a Humana Medicare Advantage dualeligible Special Needs plan. And remember, annual enrollment ends on december 7th. Humana. A more H