Get under Donald Trumps skin, hoping even a muted Mic Cant contain him. What both campaigns are after is a moment that will last well after the debate is over. That welllanded one liner. Beyond that, though, the more relevant question is what broad Message And Vision is going to get through . This election is shaping up to be another change election, so both Harris And Trump are trying to paint themselves as the fresh face, and the other, this dodgy incumbent. Why, as our Friend Chuck Todd puts it, the electorate is grumpy and has been for just about the entire 21st century, meaning whomever best promises to do something different has the best shot at winning. Joining us now, Washington Post national political reporter, isaac arnsdorf. I cant think that quickly about grammar. Thank you for being with us. How are they able to do that when both of them have prominent places at the White House . Donald trump was the incumbent four years ago, Vice President harris is the Vice President . Yeah, you know, trump has been making this point a lot, with every promise that harris has been making, why didnt she already do it in power, and harris in turn has been saying, you know, we want to turn the page on the past decade, which includes trumps presidency but also the presidency of biden who are shes serving with, and so that does tell you a lot about what voters want to hear. You know, something that stands out to me is with this kind of breath of fresh Air Pursuit is the way the Harris Campaign has been more focused on positive ads and contrast ads rather than attacking trump. Which you had thought about being the democratic default for ever since hes been the other republican standard bearer. That really tells you that they are looking into, leaning into, you know, not talking about trump so much, the sense out there is some trump fatigue, and actually their opportunity is to offer a fresh face and a new alternative, and its actually the Trump Campaign and the trump Super Pacs that have been more focused on attacking harris and trying to bring down her favorable ratings when, you know, the views of her among americans are a lot less hard wired than they are of trump or they were of biden. What about President Biden . I mean, how much does harris need to distinguish herself from him . Does she have to cut from him in distinct ways in order to make herself that fresh face . Well, its a little bit delicate with, you know, not wanting to undermine the sitting president who she still serves with, but the polling has indicated that actually voters dont overly associate her with bidens existing policies, that they sort of are giving her that chance to define herself. So far obviously the Trump Campaign is working hard against that. Their messaging has been very explicit about trying to make harris responsible for everything that biden has done. Really just like swapping out one name or the other for criticisms of the exact same policies. We have Vaughn Hillyard whos joining us, nbc News Correspondent. So, vaughn, Donald Trump wanted the mics to stay off. Didnt want to change the rules. He got his way. Nbc news is going to keep the mics off when the candidate is hot speaking, their mic is off. Hes complaining about the rules and complaining about abc. Lets play a moment from him last night on Fox News with sean hannity. When they said they wanted to change the rules they had agreed to, did they ask for notes . Did they ask for they wanted notes. They wanted to be seated and they wanted your mic hot. They wanted a desk. I want you got to do a standup. After they agreed to the other. But they wanted a desk from the beginning. Vaughn, complaining. Its kind of his modus operandi. And ultimately, the campaign got what they wanted and this is what Biden Campaign had agreed to back in june. Look, i dont know whether Donald Trump wanted these rules or whether his campaign wanted the rules, the Harris Team was trying to poke the bear by almost provoking him online to say his advisers were trying to muzzle him from being able to speak out, and ultimately, as you heard here, he is throwing a lot of other, lets be very frank, gibberish out there, one of those examples is that he is suggesting last night on hannity that the Harris Campaign, that they wanted to actually, im losing my train of thought. He was suggesting that the Harris Team was going to get the questions. That was it. And the foundation that he is there. And this is why this is one of the misleading statements, that this could work, there was a case where Donna Brazile admitting to doing that or some version of that. Theres a sealed of truth that happened in the past, and now hes exploiting it to make it seems like Abc News is trying to tip the scales in harriss favor. Abc news said none of the candidates are going to be getting the questions. Thats standard. Theres no reason to believe, its unsubstantiated, unfounded. Donald trump has nothing yet. If he goes and throws that out to the right wing ecosystem, folks going to believe. You mentioned Donna Brazile, revealed when she was a contributor at cnn she had suggested to the Clinton Campaign some of the potential topics that may be brought up at a town hall. It wasnt a debate. But it all gets mumbled together here. Donald trump uses that seed of one particular thing, they werent questions, they were potential topics, to suggest that Kamala Harris is going to have the questions were sent to her. He was suggesting that Kamala Harris cannot complete a sentence. Hes setting the Bar Low for her. He did that back in june, and hes confident and believes that he is in the best to go and be able to make the case to the american public in a way that he is able to effectively do that hes the better one positioned to take the White House. We were talking about this with isaac, who is going to be able to paint the other as the incumbent . How is Donald Trump going to go after that . A lot of policies are the same ones he had in place in 2017 . Exactly. Part of this, what we were talking about, eight blocks down the road, Ran Over here from midtown, manhattan, speaking to the economic club of new york. Youre not out of breath. Incredible shape, my friend. A lot of the Policy Proposals are to rescind what the Biden Harris Administration did. Rescind Tax Credits for electric vehicles, roll back Carbon Emission standards, to implement tariffs on all imported goods. Ceos, Hedge Fund managers at this prominent economic club a few moments ago that the economy under the Trump Administration was great up until the pandemic and now biden and harris are trying to take credit for everything that they have done, showing the numbers, over inflating them because the numbers went down during the pandemic. Essentially hes trying to but up and prebut what he can expect Kamala Harris to use on the debate. Theres so much anticipation for this because the last debate blew up the Biden Campaign. What is this debate going to be like . Especially because Kamala Harris has never met Donald Trump, never spoken to him in person. The only time she has been in the same room as him is during the state of the union. Thats fascinating. I covered Kamala Harriss 2019 president ial campaign daytoday, and the discussion amongst reporters is she would be so effective if she ever got the chance to go Toe To toe with Donald Trump. Why . When she was debating bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, Joe Biden, they were steeped in decades of policy making, votes, right, they had identities, their biographies were well known, but when it came to the idea of prosecuting the case, she was eager to do it because she had a History Dating back to california as the attorney general. I had talked with colleagues and friends of hers that had mentored her inside the alameda county, you know, district attorneys office, that said that she was so effective in not only asking the tough questions but also when she was able to talk to victims and highlight their own stories. When you have both of those together, that is a part that, i think, most humans, right, theres an emotional side, and then there is also the exacting mathematical side. Not often in politics do we see somebody whos able to balance both of those, and i think that this is really a moment for Kamala Harris where she is going to be able to effectively, potentially show that or at least thats what her allies said. Vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. Extremely interesting. Isaac, thank you as well. And joining us now, former Campaign Manager for hillary clinton, robby mook, im going to flip that construction. Im going to say Donald Trump has never been in the same or never spoken to Kamala Harris. Hes only been in the room during a state of the union. Is that an advantage for Kamala Harris over Donald Trump . Everybody hes debated in the past hes known pretty well in terms of a general election. You know, in 2016, hillary really hadnt spent that much time with him before. But i think something thats true regardless of how much time he spent with Donald Trump at all is you never know which Donald Trump is going to show up to the debate. For example, the Donald TrumpWe Saw show up to the debate with biden was restrained, disciplined on message. The Donald Trump in debates in 2020 and 2016 was incredibly unhinged. I think its a bit of an advantage for harris, for the reasons that vaughn was just mentioning. Shes an incredibly experienced prosecutor. I think this is a good forum for her. You know, its high stakes. She needs to do a good job. Its not like this is going to be easy by any stretch. I think shes set up well given her skill set. Whats going to be hard for her, a little different, is breaking through with her own message because trump can be so belligerent, so poorly behaved, that can become the story, and she needs to show up and make sure she can drive her own message through all of that Bombast And Noise hes likely to bring to this. What are the points that you want to hear her make . What is out there or what does she have in her Policy Arsenal that you think she would be best served to focus on during this debate . I cant remember who said said it before, but one of the key pieces of the strategy for her so far has been distinguishing herself as a change agent. She talks a lot about turning the page. I think shes done a good job on that, and i think thats in a pretty good place. The next step you can see the campaign trying to take here is to say that shes on your side, you know, one of the things we talked a lot about in 2016 is how Donald Trump wasnt a billionaire. It was all a fraud. The campaign this time is saying, yeah, hes a billionaire, on the side of other billionaires, and Kamala Harris is on the side of the middle class and that is a much harder point to drive through in this debate, again, because of all the chaff hes going to throw in the air to try to distract from that. So if i were her going into this, i want to tell a story. I want to drive a hard contrast with Donald Trump that hes going to go to the White House and serve billionaires and elitists like himself. Hes certainly going to serve himself. Hes not going to serve you. Thats going to be a little bit more complicated for her. And shes going to have to do some of that story telling that vaughn was talking about. People dont know her as well as a Joe Biden or hillary clinton. Carlos, whos writing an Opinion Column for the New York Times argues that Kamala Harriss toughest opponent on Debate Night is Joe Biden. He says the most complicated antagonist will be one she cant criticize, question or contradict, one she must deflect and defend. Harris is both prosecutor and defend, reformer and institutionalist, contrast and continuity, and that is a harder sell, he arguings. He says its tricky to campaign in a new way when you also represent the old way, to turn the next page when you helped write the previous chapter. Is it going to be difficult to separate herself from Joe Biden while defending the record . When youre in the room doing debate prep, so much is psychological. Its like hyping up for sports. If i were in the room with her, i would say dont ever look at this as some kind of disadvantage. Look at it as an opportunity. So i think theres a lot about the biden administration that serves to communicate about that contrast i was just talking about. But she also doesnt need to be shackled to what biden has done. She rolled out policy that was different than what biden proposed. I see this as an opportunity and a strength. If shes defensive about buying, dwelling or trying to weave in and out of particulars of this policy or that, this statistic or that. Thats time wasted and time that advantages Donald Trump. I would be looking for healthy, positive ways, to draw contrast with biden. That new direction thats uniquely hers because thats only going to help her. But thats going to be hard to do. Because you said earlier, you know, trumps going to try to just hang a bunch of statistics around her neck, and, you know i dont think shell get bogged down on that, she certainly cant allow him to do that. Robby mook, really good to have you. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much. What Liz Cheneys might mean for conflicted conservatives. She had one line in particular thats important. David french will join us on that. And what Judge Tanya Chutkan said to Donald Trumps lawyers about delaying the election interference trial. Blunt words from him. A surprise in Hunter Bidens tax case. Whats going on in court when the trial was supposed to begin, and now its all suddenly up in the air. We are back in 90 seconds. We are back in 90 seconds. Is p. Made possible by tmobile for business. With tmobiles reliable 5g Business Internet. Employees get the information they need instantly. This is how business goes further with tmobile for business. Donald trumps Election Interference Case was back in federal Court Today where Judge Tanya Chutkan was not convince that the case put the presidency on the line, from Trump Attorney john, were talking about the presidency of the united states, and were entitled, to which Judge Chutkan said, im not talking about the presidency, im talking about a four count criminal indictment. Joining us now, Nbc NewsJustice And Intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian. What was it like in there, ken . Reporter that exchange captured the tone of the day, katy, and it was such an incredible contrast to all the hearings i have been covering in florida with Judge Aileen Cannon who deferred to the idea that Donald Trump was different and special because he was running as president. Judge chutkan was having none of that. She appeared to adopt the view of how to proceed. She said she intends to enter a Scheduling Order as soon as today. Of course the