We are going to walk down to the capital. Donald trump indicted all over again. This time for the same crime, using the same charges. Conspiring to defraud the united states. Conspiring to disenfranchise voters. And conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding. Tonight, what special counsel jack smith presented to a new grand jury and what it means for the prosecution of donald trump. I did everything right and they indicted me. Plus, with a fresh indictment for the republican nominee, the harrison the harris campaign has figured out how to run against trump. We will wait. And in georgia and beyond, what we are learning about attempts to subvert the election this time around, when all in starts now. Good evening. From miami i am katie phang, in for chris hayes. We are now just 70 days out from election day. 10 days away from mailin ballots being sent out in some states and the republican nominee for president was just indicted all over again for trying to steal the last election. Earlier today, special counsel jack smith unveiled a new superseding indictment of donald trump. A brandnew grand jury of americans impaneled to hear the case against the expresident for the first time and once again a grand jury of americans came to the conclusion that criminal charges should be brought. The charges against trump remain unaltered from when the doj first brought them a year ago this month, but the reason we have a new indictment is because special counsel jack smith's office clearly took efforts to comply with the broad new rules of presidential immunity that the supreme court invented in its ruling last month. Namely that the chief executive can effectively act with total impunity when it comes to so called official acts. For instance, by noting that trump's coconspirators were not government officials and that they were acting in, quote, a private capacity when they attempted to subvert a free and fair election. Smith's indictment also highlights the fact that trump's infamous january 6 rally at the ellipse in washington where he invited the mob to storm the capitol was, quote, a campaign speech at a privately funded , privately organized political rally, rather than an official act of the president of the united states. In other words, trump may have still been president at the time, but he was not acting as the president when he attempted a coup. Now this latest filing is obviously an attempt by smith to get ahead of any attempts by trump to have the case dismissed. Which actually happened in another case last month, when trump appointed judge eileen cannon dismissed the classified documents case against trump, a decision that smith's office is now appealing and of course, none of this would be necessary in the first place if chief justice john roberts and his maga majority on the supreme court did not invent a brand new standard for presidential immunity with no actual basis in constitutional law in the first place. In a clip of a new interview released today, justice ketanji brown jackson, who dissented in the immunity case, shared her concerns with that decision. Reporter: in your dissent you wrote that the court declared for the first time in history that the most powerful official in the united states can, under circumstances yet to be fully determined, become a law unto himself. It sounds like a warning. Well, that was my view of what the court determined. Reporter: you were concerned about broad immunity. I was concerned about a system that appeared to provide immunity for one individual under one set of circumstances. When we have a criminal justice system that had ordinarily treated everyone the same. To be absolutely clear, donald trump will not face trial in this d. C. Intervention election interference case or in any case before the election. He is running to get the entire thing thrown out should he win. Barbara mcquade served as united states attorney for the eastern district of michigan and is now a professor of law at the university of michigan. Glenn kirschner is a former fellow prussic enter fellow prosecutor. They both join me now. I cannot think of better folks to join me tonight to get us started. Did you expect a superseding indictment from jack smith at this time? no, i really didn't, katie, because what i thought he would do is pare down the indictment, filing an amended indictment to comply with the court order. Obviously the court to set the scheme relating to the justice department was official conduct and must come out. A prosecutor can remove language from an indictment without going back to the grand jury, but if you change allegations and put new material in you must go back to the grand jury and have them return that indictment. Here is you point out it really reframed the case. Even though not much is different. Instead the very first words of this are not donald trump was the 45th president of the united states, but it now says donald trump was a candidate for president in 2020 and it frames it in all of these instances as a candidate for office, as opposed to a president engaging in official conduct. Throughout the indictment you can see not only removal of some of these allegations about the justice department, but the addition of some language to reframe it. Another example, mike pence is described as the vice president, but also as the president of the senate, who has the power to certify the election. Those kinds of things require a superseding indictment. Now that i see it i can see why it was a good move, but i did not anticipate it. It is not just the deletion of people and maybe allegations. It is the beefing up of the allegations to make sure that it comports with what the united states supreme court was insisting had to happen after the horrific immunity ruling that we got just last month. It seems like longer than that, on july 1. Let's talk a little bit about process, first. No new arraignment for donald trump. He doesn't have to come back to court? there will be a new arraignment, but the reporting is jack smith said they are not going to demand the defendant donald trump's presence and the judge can accept the waiver of his presence at an arraignment. Donald trump has been arraigned a number of times and i guess he doesn't have to come to all of his arraignments. It makes sense that you will not bog down washington, d. C. Just to have donald trump brought in a federal court, arraigned in a fiveminute hearing and on his merry way. So i agree, katie, that you called the supreme court absolute immunity ruling horrific. Constitutional scholars of said the supreme court declared parts of the constitution unconstitutional, which is extraordinarily problematic and something that needs to be addressed. Like barb i was not expecting a superseding indictment, but here's the brilliance from my perspective. First of all, jack smith was proactive. He adjusted. He looked at the indictment and tried to pull out the offending language that might run afoul of the immunity ruling. Pared it down to 36 pages. What i was waiting for and thought would come as a result of hearings before judge chutkan. I was waiting to see if judge if jack smith believed in the wake of the absolute immunity ruling from the supreme court some of the charges would have to go away. This is considered opinion now as evidenced by the superseding indictment that all four charges remain viable, provable, and he is going to try to proceed to trial on all four charges and that is a good day for the prospect of accountability. You know, barb, in order to get to a jury of his peers, donald trump will have to survive a motion to dismiss. We've seen, let's be frank, right? we had an original version of the indictment. It survived a motion to dismiss by donald trump that was filed in front of judge chutkan. It is the same judge. The same indictment went to the d. C. Circuit of appeals and survived intact by trump there. It was only the supreme court that did damage, if any, to the indictment. What we are hearing from glenn, maybe there wasn't damage but one of the questions i've been asked is why maybe no new codefendants in this case? this is one of the only cases of indictments donald trump had where he was facing the charges all by his lonesome. In fact if there were to be a superseding indictment, i would've thought that would be the reason. We have unindicted co conspirators remaining in the indictment. One has been removed. Speculation is that person who is now out of the case is jeffrey clark who was a justice department official who came very close to being the acting attorney general. He is out because all of that conduct is no official conduct, but the others remain. Speculation being that there is rudy giuliani and john eastman and some of the others. Those five unindicted co conspirators are still there and i always speculated the reason they were not named as defendants was an effort to streamline the case, so perhaps it could go to trial before the election. Now that we know that is not at all possible, it is a little curious that they still have not included those and named them as defendants. I don't know the reason. Perhaps some are cooperating. Perhaps they want to keep their focus on donald trump. I don't know the reason, but the prior reason to streamline the case and get it on the calendar quickly no longer seems to be what's driving it. Glenn, let's talk next steps in the process. Many of us were waiting for an evidentiary hearing or hearings of sorts to be ordered by judge chutkan in advance of any type of motion. Can we reasonably anticipate donald trump filing a motion to dismiss this version, the superseding indictment, but can we also expect once that motion is denied that those evidentiary hearings could still take place? you know, they could. I think donald trump's motions to dismiss will come early and often and they will be reject did by the judge one after another. I do think we will see some kind of a hearing. Whether it is an evidentiary hearing where you have some of the republican witnesses who testified before the grand jury about donald trump's crimes. Whether they take the stand in the courtroom where it is done by proffer where they say judge here is what the evidence is and why we think it survives or trump's lawyers will say it does not survive the supreme court immunity ruling. One way or another we are going to see those hearings conducted and we are probably going to learn more about some of the evidence that was presented to the grand jury that led to regular citizens indicting donald trump, not only the first time, but a brandnew grand jury doing it again a second time and issuing this superseding indictment. Barbara mcquade and glenn kirschner, again, my thanks to both of you for getting us started tonight. Thanks, katie. Coming up, the new tactics of the democratic campaign. Successfully goading trump into a debate. That's next. I'll be honest. 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[giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to tmobile 5g home internet. And now his attention is spent elsewhere. But i'm thinking of her the whole time. That's so much worse. Why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. Well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. Therapy's tough, huh? mmm. It's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. Oo this is a good book title. With both with both parties conventions now behind us, we are officially in the final stretch before november 5. So in the midst of all of this, special counsel jack smith filed a new superseding indictment against donald trump for his attempts to steal the last election. It is unclear how this will impact the polls, but with only 70 days before the election, things remain remarkably close. The 538 polling average shows kamala harris leading donald trump by 3 1/2 points nationally. While many key battleground states are in a dead heat. Harris maintains a bit over a three point edge in michigan and wisconsin while georgia, nevada, north carolina and pennsylvania are effectively tied. Harris and walz will head to georgia tomorrow to kick off a bus tour culminating at a rally in savannah on thursday, well trump will hold a wisconsin rally on thursday and in pennsylvania on friday. In the meantime his vice presidential nominee, j. D. Vance, is scheduled to hold events of his own in those same states tomorrow. At least for now it really does feel like the harriswalz campaign has momentum on its side. That is because in large part democrats are taking the offensive in a way they have not in recent campaign cycles. Harris and walz are essentially trolling trump, like with this video calling out the former president for trying to back out of next month's schedule debate. Why not debate her? because they already know everything. Trump is not doing the debate. Right now i say why should i do a debate? i am leading in the polls and everybody knows me. When i looked at the hostility of that, i said why am i doing it? so for his part, donald trump now says that the debate scheduled september 10 is back on. But it is impossible to deny that trump has been off his game. As the washington post recently reported, trump aids have struggled to keep the candidate focused and energized. With trump, quote, often appearing reluctant to hold events or to stay on message. That said he managed to find the time to cut this addition with his followers on his social media platform. Hello, everyone. This is your favorite president, donald j. Trump with some very exciting news. By popular demand i am doing a new series of trump digital trading cards. You all know what they are. We've had a lot of fun with them. It's called the america first collection. Allnew, stunning digital trading cards. These cards show me dancing and even me holding bitcoin. Each physical trading card has an authentic piece of my suit that i wore for the presidential debate and people are calling it the knockout suit. I don't know about that, but that's what they are calling it. It is really easy to buy. You just need an email address and a credit card work though. You know they call me the crypto president. I don't know if that is true or not, but a lot of people are saying that. If nothing else, that is a clear indication of where donald trump's priorities are. At a time when he is rapidly losing ground with voters, he still found the time to try to graft a few more dollars from his supporters. Jenny and i was a veteran democratic strategist and pollster. He is now a senior advisor for the lincoln project. They both join me now. Gentlemen, i had to take a moment after that last one before i started with you. I would like to start with you. There is this incredible messaging coming from the harriswalz campaign and one issue that is always top of mind to voters is the economy. Take a quick listen to a new ad that came out from harriswalz about an opportunity economy. Take a listen. Every day across our nation, families talk about their plans for the future. They talk about how they are going to achieve them financially and prices are still too high. When i am elected president, i will make it a top priority to bring down costs. We should be doing everything we can to make it more affordable to buy a home. Under my plan, more than 100 million americans will get a tax cut. Cornell, it is incredibly refreshing. There is policy. Never knew it existed if you try to listen to the republican camp, but there is policy coming out from the democratic party. There is policy, but also values underlying it. Talking about who she is going to fight for and the idea of the opportunity economy. And the vibe is different. I know we have thrown around that word a lot, but she does lean into the optimism and quite frankly i think much of this is very much in the vein of what you have seen both on the left and the right. That she is giving optimism and hope, just the way that reagan did once upon a time in america when he declared it was morning in america and americans are leaning into that. I think part of the energy you find building around this campaign is that, my goodness, americans want something to cheerful to cheer for and she has given them that to rally around. But you know, stuart, we may feel the good joy vibe, but kamala harris does not suffer fools, either. We saw in the lead up to this interview, that was a great ad. The clucking chicken, evidencing the lack of courage from donald trump. It is like a page taken out of the lincoln project playbook, is it not? if you have not spent time inside a chicken suit, you really have not worked in politics. So glad to see them picking this up. You know, i think this economy, in the harris campaign, their goal should be that they just have to not lose on the economy. Because they will win on all these issues that really go to the order of what this is about. The democracy and decency issues and this, i think, is a race about one thing, donald trump. And it is really important to keep that focus. There is this need to normalize this race as if it was romney and obama in 2012. It is not. This is an extraordinary race and in this debate you will have a prosecutor who will stand on stage with a criminal. This has never happened before and i think it is really important to keep the focus on that. Cornell, does it make sense? assuming donald trump shows up for that debate, that at the debate the juxtaposition of kamala harris, former prosecutor, attorney general, united states senator. Donald trump, failed business entrepreneur and 34 felonies in the state of new york. Does that make sense to stay on focus like stuart says because i like the campaign can walk and chew gum at the same time. I think what you are seeing from them as they are running a real campaign, as opposed to trying to sell trading cards. They are actually doing campaign events and putting out policy statements. What i think is remarkable is how unserious trump is about the campaign and from listening to some of the reporting that you talked about at the top of this. This is not how a candidate who wants to be president behaves. You have to have the fire in your belly. You have to be out writing every day, not peddling trading cards. When you look at what the harris campaign is doing right now. Look, it is remarkable how she has changed the dynamics of the race when we talk about biden being behind or tied and in the battleground states now she is putting the blue wall in such a position right now, which can never be comfortable, but i think they are getting to a point right now where they look at the blue wall in pennsylvania. Wisconsin. The historic blue wall. They think they are in a position where they can go on the offense. People talk about georgia being off the table in north carolina being a pipe dream. They are now putting in an organization and people and money in georgia, north carolina, arizona, trying to expand the playing field and grow the map in the way that a real campaign is doing. They are going on the offensive in a way that i have not seen democrats do in over a decade. I like this idea from cornell that this is how campaigns used to be. Those that we remember being run. Those that you ran, stored, frankly, on behalf of the gop. At the same time i agree to some extent. We can't ignore that it remains an existential threat to have donald trump back in the oval office, but it is possible to do all of these things at one time. Some people i think to get tired when the focus is exclusively on the donald trump angle. I think all of us are able to hold different thoughts in our head at the same time and, yes, you are worried about the economy. Yes you are worried about gas prices. But do you believe that a criminal should be in the oval office? you know, for those of us who worked for bush, i can tell you the reason george bush got elected in 2000 was the message of restoring honor and dignity to the white house and how is it now that the entire republican party for the most part is backing this terrible human being, sexual predator, felon? so yes i think you can do both, but again i think if it is harris campaign doesn't lose on the economy, they will win on these other issues because they have such an overwhelming advantage. Cornell belcher and stuart stevens, always so good to see both of you. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it. Coming up, the rambling republican ticket on tour. White even trump's own voters think he's getting worse. That's next. Right now across the u. S. , people are trying to ban books from public schools and public libraries. Yes, libraries. We all have a first amendment right to read and learn different viewpoints. 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He would have given up on the first half of the question. He would have walked out. We heard him call into fox news after harris's acceptance speech at the dnc, where he struggled with the network time constraints and banging the buttons on his own phone. 70% of our people are living in poverty. A tax increase of 4 to 5 times what people and companies are paying right now. Mister president in the end the democrats did the same thing to joe biden. They threw joe biden out of the party. That is why we saw a different night tonight. Thank you for the time. Stay right there. A live edition of gutfeld is coming up. Thank you for joining us from chicago. It's been a great week. Have a great night. And despite constant appeals to avoid personal attacks and stick to the script in his policy speeches, well, you know. We are going to do a new poll. Here are the questions, should i get personal, should i not get personal? should i get personal? should i not get personal? i don't know, my advisors are fired. But i say that i am much better looking than her. Much better. I am a better looking person than kamala. And she mentioned thank you about 50 times. Did you see the beginning? thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I say what is wrong with her? this woman is nuts. Look, people say be nice. Have you heard her laugh? that is the laugh of a crazy person. They would say he's rambling. I don't ramble, i'm a very smart guy. Very smart. You know i always look for good words. Highly sophisticated and i am highly educated. I like sophisticated words. Some of that came from a heavily publicized campaign rally in wilkesbarre, pennsylvania last week where trump was supposed to fire upon here's an a critical battleground state. Many supporters left during his rambling, 100 minute speech. One of the attendees telling reporters, she was done with trump. Quote, i've been thinking of voting for him again because biden has been so bad for the economy and kamala won't be any better, but after listening to that i am actually afraid of trump being president again. I don't know what he was talking about half the time. Perhaps he was always like that, but he seems worse. More unstable. On monday at an appearance at arlington national cemetery, trump inexplicably gave photographers a thumbs up over the graves of fallen marines. On social media trump reacted to harris's speech by dropping nearly 60 angry posts in just a couple of hours and just yesterday trump deleted another post that he apparently dashed off to fast. A post that red these are great patriots who work their hearts out and have a strong and powerful, spelled very incorrectly, border, only to be harassed by kamala harris who wants and that was it. 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Shortcircuiting in interviews and campaign speeches and social media. As poll numbers fall in the very battleground states that will decide this election. Doug jones is a number senator from alabama. The ceo and cofounder of the seneca project, a super pac to court moderate women voters for kamala harris and they both join me now. It is always good to see you. I would love to start with you and get your thoughts on this. It is still a really close race and one thing that can always do you wrong is complacency, so you cannot keep your foot off the gas pedal if you are harris walz. But there is something to be said about the fact that when i see trends and poles i take note of them and it seems that the harriswalz campaign has not just momentum behind its back, it is an actual movement. I think that is exactly right, but i think what you really hit your nail on the head with his you can't take it off the gas. I told fax folks at the convention that if i were running the campaign i would not only plan everything imaginable, doorknocking, you name it to get everyone motivated, but one thing i would do is put every campaign office, every campaign bus and maybe even bumper stickers, remember 2016. When so many democrats started getting the reservations planned for the inauguration, let their foot off the gas and look what happened. We got donald trump. Donald trump is helping us. You saw it in your video clips. He is helping us a lot along the way. So, to doug's point, you have to give a gold star to kamala harris's team that is generating incredible social media. I mean what i like about it is and i know this is something you like, too, they are meeting fire with fire. It is about time. I think it is about time that the democrats step up and not bring marshmallows to a knife fight and i think that is what is happening. Donald trump is giving the ammunition to the harriswalz campaign to use and deploy because trump's decline is on full display and he is doing it himself. And the other people pushing kamala harris to do a big interview with the media and how come she hasn't? because in politics if your opponent is imploding you stand back and let them implode. You don't get in the middle, why would you? so donald trump has been in decline for some time. The problem is because of joe biden's age concerns, it wasn't as pronounced. If you notice, this has been going on for quite some time. It is more pronounced now because kamala harris is decades younger. She is more articulate, she is smarter and she is a prosecutor who is about to prosecute the case against donald trump on that debate stage, which is why he is so scared to debate her. And all of this talk about donald trump being in decline, it's interesting. He always says america is in decline. The american people are tired of that. I remember cornell sang in the last segment the people want hope. They want joy. Ronald reagan and mourning in america, that inspires people. I was at the dnc, that inspires people. Joyful warriors. You are looking at decency versus degenerates. Donald trump constantly saying america is in decline is projection. He's the one in decline. America is doing pretty good. Interest rates and things like that are a little high, but overall record oil production, best military in the world. I mean, what are we doing in this country? that is not what inspires people and i also have to tell you that women are sick and tired of being insulted. Donald trump and j. D. Vance can't seem to stop insulting women and it does not matter what side of the aisle you are on. Everywoman has experienced the mansplaining, the insults, the undermining. The underestimation of us and they see that in this campaign. The misogyny of maga is going to galvanize women in ways they are underestimating. Women see and hear this and they are tired of it. So, doug, do you expect to see that maga misogyny on full display on september 10 when donald trump tries to go toe to toe with kamala harris? i think it will be toward the middle or toward the end. I don't think he can help himself. It will start out but once he gets off script look, donald trump gets more like himself every day. More like himself every minute and he will certainly do that i believe in the debate. It is exactly why kamala harris wanted hot microphones. Let him run. We will see and i think tara had a really good point about the fact that people are seeing a decline in donald trump now because he used it as such a weapon against joe biden and now the tables are turned. He raised the stakes. He raised the issue in this coherency, moral clarity, the whole age issue and now it has turned completely around on him. Tara, i have less than a minute but i did have to ask. Donald trump has emotional support billboards set up to make him feel better. To soothe his booboos. The fact that money and time is being spent to be able to do that, to make the grand cult leader feel better has got to be yet another sign that they are trying to prop up his kind of mental and emotional stability, trying to get through the last 70 days across the finish line. I mean the comparison is just absurd. It is clear that someone like donald trump, who is emotionally stunted. He is a malignant narcissist. That he needs to be coddled. This is not someone fit to be president of the united states. He is not and we are going to see that binary choice on display, side by side during the debates and i cannot wait for it and that is why he does not want to do it. While he does not have a choice. I guess he has a choice. He doesn't have to show up, but then the clucking will be even louder. Doug jones and tara setmayer, always good to see you both. Appreciate you. And still ahead, the efforts already underway in several states to swing the election for donald trump. Whether the voters like it or not. This is important and it is coming up next. A oncedaily, extendedrelease td treatment for adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. Some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. With austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds— (kate) aww! hi buddy! (vo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. Pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. Don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. Austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, or abnormal movements. Seek help for fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, or sweating. 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The rules that nearly passed the fivemember board weeks ago would give election officials authority to conduct reasonable inquiry into elections before certification and require the county election officials begin and all election related documentation before certification. Democrats warned that the measures would invite chaos to the electoral certification process. Georgia is one of a dozen states were republicans have enacted new rules. Losses have been filed by rightwing groups in the event of a kamala harris victory. Lawsuits range from efforts to perjure voters and expanded ballot dropbox locations. There even challenging voting machines and the systems themselves. This is the president to the naacp legal defense fund. He served as the director of the safeguarding democracy project. This is such an incredibly important topic we have to talk about. I guess this is what it takes now. You have to file a lawsuit for declaratory relief. I read this and you have to preempt what is basically election interference to happen in key battleground states. That is right. People were expecting election interference to happen after november 5th, but it's rampant already and in some of the most egregious ways. We've seen voter suppression laws that constrict the right to vote and make it harder to register, harder to cast a ballot, but now we've seen effort to make sure that even if you register and you cast a ballot, it won't necessarily be counted and that's why many of us are pushing back. It's important to recognize it's not a partisan issue. This is a democracy issue. It's a simple matter of ensuring that the election results are counted in a timely way and not with any sabotage or interference. You wrote a great piece in politico in january of this year about how you had optimism going into the november election this year about a fair vote. But you have these three maga members of the state election board that passed these. You have these rules were coming from the republican state share of georgia sending the language for these rules. Do you still have that optimism going into november? i do have an optimism, but not that these officials are going to do the right thing but i think there are more safeguards in place and people are focused on these issues now. They recognize it's not necessarily going to be smooth and it does not end on election night and we have to ensure that every vote will count and we will understand what the votes were and it will be translated into congress determining who has gotten the electoral college vote and winner to take power. These are things we take for granted, but after 2020 we have to be vigilant. Congress has passed some laws. The supreme court has decided a case that helps in this area. There are things that have been done that put us in better shape and we are not in the middle of the pandemic. So while i think there are bad actors, i think we are better prepared than we were in 2020. Let's call out all the bad actors. It's not just donald trump. It's the supreme court. This is the third presidential election since section 5 was struck down. It's important for people to understand this and just happened overnight. This has been barreling down against democracy over years and it has just been buttressed by bad decisions that come from the highest court in the land. That is right. When the supreme court gutted voting rights act in 2013 in case from alabama, we saw a deluge of voter suppression laws. Since 2020 alone there have been 100 laws passed that make voting more difficult. Over 28 states have passed laws to make voting more difficult and georgia is the latest one. And now it's election interference. So many people are acutely aware of this and pushing back. A letter was sent on monday to the governor and the secretary of state and the chair of the georgia election board demanding that the attorney general of georgia issue an opinion explaining the unlawfulness of these new rules. We were joined by nearly a dozen groups, most of them local from georgia. People are aware of this attempt. We are watching and ready to pounce because we are good to see the selection stolen in a state where there are that many black voters in particular who have always been targeted, and this is just the latest one and we will push back. I think there is conflation going on with people's perception of election certification. People look at mike pence and january 6th and the certification of results, but the reality is in states across our country, election certification is ministerial. Is just something that needs to happen and is not a substantive act. There's no independent verification by state election board members as to what the results are, right? this is an attempt it requires that elections be certified. If this happens, you will see court step in because not only is interfering with the rules that the legislative put in place, but also the voters right to vote. If there is a delay that you cannot send the slates to congress, all of the voters will be disenfranchised and i don't think courts will stand for that. It is a pretty transparent page in the gop playbook and i'm glad to see that your great to explain it all. Thank you for doing it. That is all in. I am in for chris hayes. Alex wagner starts right now it has been a while. But this is how the weekend is. Have yourself a great evening. You too. It's tuesday, so i must be talking about project 2025. Digging through this