books including his latest, pursuit of happiness, how classical writers on virtue inspired lives of the founders and defined america. president biden will be meeting with members of his family today to discuss the future of his presidential campaign. this after his debate performance spark calls for him to step aside. the other candidate, the convicted felon who has actively tried to overturn democracy who is not facing calls to step aside is awaiting a supreme court opinion on whether he is immune from he prosecution in his federal prosecution case. i will talk about all of that with jamie raskin. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning. sunday, good morning. sunday, june 30th. breaking news regarding the uncertainty of president biden's re-election bid following his election performance that has sent many democrats into panic mode. after new york and new jersey in the past couple of days, arrived in camp david last night were members of their family awaited them. nbc news is reporting that the bidens will huddle together to discuss the path forward for the president ■ças questions persist about his ability to take on donald trump this november, let alone handle the toughest job in the world for another four years. the biden campaign leaders held a virtual call with members of the democratic national committee yesterday. in the days since the debate, many have voiced an urgent need to reconsider biden as the democratic nominee this november. they've already called for the president to step aside and give another democrat a chance. last night, the editorial board of the constitution, one of the largest publications in the swing state of georgia, called for an op-ed to pass the torch to a new nominee. biden has pledged to do all he can from preventing trump to return to the white house. if he truly hopes to defeat trump, you must pass the torch ç to the next generation of democratic leaders and urge them to nominate another candidate in august,". joining me now is senior politics reporter jonathan allen. good morning to you. what do we know about this meeting? who's going to be a this family meeting? was it preplanned, or was this a result of what happened thursday night? what are they discussing? >> the president was going to be campaigning with his family members, which the white house has reiterated today. what was not preplanned is that they would be talking about the performance. obviously, they didn't know until thursday that that was going to happen. i reporting saw that in the graphic there. five of us on that byline are reporting that ■çhis family is going to discuss with him, you know, what the future of his campaign looks like. that is sort of a broad category, as you pointed out. there are people calling for him to get out of the campaign. longtime senior adviser to biden saying that what he is looking at is what he needs to do next in order to sort of stabilize after thursday's debate. but obviously the democratic party is, you know, is taking a long look in the mirror right now. >> john, keep us posted, please. this is, of course, a remarkably important story. john allen is msnbc senior news politics reporter. joining me now is jamie raskin. he previously served as ■çthis leading impeachment manager for the second impeachment of donald trump. he was a member of the january 6th committee. he is also the writer of the book, unthinkable: trauma, truth, and the trials of american democracy. congressman, it is good to have you here. we have two major issues on our hands. the discussions around the future of the democratic party with joe biden as a presidential candidate. you are a thinker. our viewers respect you as such. tell me your thinking. >> i mean, this is what a real political party looks like and this is what a real political party does. obviously, there was a big problem with ■çjoe biden's deba performance, and there is also just a tremendous reservoir of love for joe biden in our party . so this makes it a difficult situation for everybody, but there are very honest and serious and rigorous conversations happening at every level of our party, because it is a political party and we have differences in point of view. you compare that to the nonexistent dialogue and conversation that took place in the republican party after donald trump's criminal conviction on 34 counts. it is remarkable. and so we are having a serious conversation about what to do. one thing i can tell you is that regardless of what president biden decides, our party is going to be unified. and our party also needs him at of deliberations in our campaign. so whether he is a candidate or someone else is the candidate, he is going to be the keynote beaker at our convention. he will be the figure that we rally around to move forward. and beat the forces of authoritarianism and reaction in the country. >> let's move onto the thing in which you are also an ex -- constitutional law. within 24 hours, it's very unusual, because he could have had this decision and this opinion a long time ago about donald trump's immunity. very interesting conversation that i had an hour ago with judge michael dudek and lawrence strive. i want to say something that judge lueck said. the conversation goes around "jáhe fact that even if donald trump is not given immunity, it's too late to hold a trial. he is what he said. >> i would urge jack smith, in the strongest possible terms today, not to yield to that cynical partisan politics and to bring this case on for trial, even in september or october. >> wow. >> in the name of and for the sake of american democracy, the constitution, and rule of law. >> i would love your take on that. you're saying jack smith should go ahead with this if he's at all permitted to by the ■çsupre court tomorrow question mark >> well, you know, i think that in deference to jack smith and the executive branch, we got to let them make their own decisions the way the supreme court did not. the way the majority of the court repeatedly interfered and through wrenches in that process . i am smiling only because judge ludovic, of course, was an extremely conservative republican judge. and what i'm hearing from a lot of people in this situation, essentially, refugees and exiles from trump land like liz cheney or michael cohen, these people who are now distinguished patriots standing up for democracy, they are the people fighting hardest to try to turn things around and make sure that trump and the forces of maga ■ç don't run roughshod over our constitutional democracy and everything we believe in. i suppose as a professional hazard, he places a little bit more stock in everything that goes on in the courts than i do. i mean, i am not now either in the prognostication business about what courts will do or the adjudication business. i am in the political mobilization business. for me, this campaign is all about galvanizing millions and millions of people across the country, including disenchanted independence to come and join democracy. that's what is going to save us. not any particular courtroom in the land. >> then that is full-circle to our first question about what happens with joe biden. ■ç there are lots of sound arguments that i fully subscribe to the 90 minutes does not a presidency make, and that there's no comparison between joe biden and donald trump. but there is this issue, if you're talking about somebody who wants to win this election, that there are 100 million eligible voters who sat out the last election. is a lot of disenchantment. thursday may have contributed to yet more of that. what is the best way for democrats or people who are concerned, whether it's liz cheney, you, or every other democrat in this country, to make sure the donald trump is not the president of the united states? you didn't rule out the possibility the joe biden steps out of the race. what do you think the right thing to do is? >> we've got a lot of faith in president biden. ■ç he will have to make the decision about whether or not what happened at the debate was one bad night. and president obama had one bad night, you remember, and debating written mitt romney. he came back roaring in north carolina. i thought that that was a very sharp and hard-hitting speech when he was in north carolina. and so that gave me some comfort. i know that there are still a lot of concerns out there, and those are not concerns that are ill motivated in any way. we love joe biden. he has been a magnificent president. you think about the infrastructure plan, 1,000,000,000,000 1/2 dollar investment in bridges and roads and highways, you think about inflation reduction act, dramatic reductions in ñó)ú'c prescription drug prices in the medicare program ■çi constituen spending $500 a month on insulin shot. now that's down to $35. he has done extraordinary stuff, but now the question is, can we recover from the hit that we took during that debate? there is real soul-searching going on, but ultimately, president biden is going to have to make that call. he's the one who has a super majority of delegates. the party and convention are still behind him, but he's going to have to make that judgment. this is what a real political party looks like. it's on a colt of authoritarian personality where one person calls all the shots. it is president biden, his advisers, its mayors, its representatives, it's the family. it's a myriad of things involved in this decision. president bid) to america, i alone can do this. i alone will do all of these decisions for you. we know who is on that path. >> your argument, which i think is intriguing, is this moment that the democratic party is going through, or anybody who likes democracy in this country is going through, this angst is healthy. it's not that everybody's got unified messaging on this. i am sort of with you on this. good to see you as always. jenny raskin of maryland. go ahead. >> thank you very much. i think all of us, regardless of what happens with this particular imbruglia, all of us need to be engaged in the selection, and that's of the selection is all about. >> much agreed. jamie raakin, also author of the book unthinkable:,, truth, and the trials of american democracy. it is a very, very meaningful and important book. we will be right back. (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. >> >> back in april, donald trump held a private dinner at his mar-a-lago resort with a group of oil executives and pitched a quid pro quo partnership. according to the washington post and the new york times, trump asked for $1 billion in donations from ■çthe oil magnet promising that in return, he would roll back some of president biden's environmental rules that threaten their industry. at the same time, reporting revealed that the same oil companies are literally writing policy proposals and drafting executive orders to give to trump if he is elected. within weeks, separate reporting revealed that trump had raised more than $40 million in donations from texas fossil fuel companies in just a matter of days. that same week, the finance and budget committees announced they were launching an investigation into the proposition. fast forward to this past week9 and other group, citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington, also known as crewlç filed a criminal by rhe complaint, asking the department of justice to investigate whether trump broke the law by promising political favors to the oil and gas industry. favors like rolling back environmental action laws, and drilling and export permits and exchange for donations to his campaign. the complaint reads, quote, the facts to date establish a startling pattern of events were a candidate for the presidency gathered up oil and gas executives at a private meeting, requested a massive influx of campaign contributions from them, and promised certain official act in their favor on day one of his presidency. and two, associates of those contributors appear to everest bonded by both increasing their contributions to mr. trump and drafting, quote, ready to sign executive orders that have, quote, exactly what we want -- actually spoon feeding the administration that can ■çbe given the force of law on the first day of trump's administration. noah bookbinder, the president of crew, said it is crucial that we have a quick and thorough investigation to determine whether his conduct violates court corruption laws, which are meant to protect the government from undue influence and corruption. the trouble is, this is playing out at a time where the highest court in the land appears to welcome corruption and keeps taking a sledgehammer to those anticorruption laws. just last week in a 6-3 vote divided along ideological lines, the supreme court essentially ruled that bribery is okay. it struck down part of an anticorruption law that prevented state and local officials from receiving gifts from donors who had received contract or some other benefit from ■çthat official. so now it's totally legal to give politicians and lawmakers gift and money for doing something that you want them to do. you can give a politician a gift or a wad of cash as long as the gift is delivered after the service is performed. if there is plausible deniability, then apparently, it is fine. after a quick break, i will discuss the complaint with donald sherman. why use 10 buckets of water when you can use 1 fire extinguisher. and to fight heartburn, why take 10 antacids throughout the day when you can take 1 prilosec. for easier heartburn relief, one beats ten. prilosec otc. one pill. 24 hours. zero heartburn. power outages can be unpredictable, inconvenient, and disruptive to your life, posing a real threat to your family's comfort and safety. when the power goes out, you have no lights, no refrigeration, no heating or air conditioning. the winds are not letting up at all here. we're going to see some power outages. number one thing to prepare for is extended power outages. are you prepared? 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between a public speech and a private conversation where he says and what implement specific policies? >> there is, and the devil is in the details. two specific ones that you noted in your intro are important here. one is that the oil and gas industry was unhappy with donald trump's administration and the steps that it took in support of industry during this administration. his donations from that center lagged in 2020, and were lagging in 2024 before this meeting. and then as you noted, after this private meeting, were allegedly an explicit promise was made,■ç he went to texas an raise millions of dollars in one day, but also, industry insiders were drafting specific executive orders with their perspective in mind that apparently the president would sign on day one. and so this is not just sort of a general policy perspective. but specific executive orders and specific polity asks. it's not just of the detriment of the environment, but also, two folks within industry that weren't at that meeting. >> i want to talk about this bribery opinion from the supreme court. it was called snyder versus united states, where they struck down an existing anticorruption law, which i interpret is basically allowing bribery in the form of gift if the gift is given after dh service. it seems to be following a pattern of a court loosening up and corruption laws, which is pretty odd, considering judges should be, in theory, of the utmost integrity. does this case pair any relationship to what you're trying to achieve with respect to this donald trump meeting at mar-a-lago ? >> absolutely. this case, snyder is consistent with what we've seen from the conservative court into dark money, which is that there are wins for corruption, for corporations, and insurrectionist, and losses for democracy, accountability, and regular americans. in snyder specifically, were talking about the gratuity statute, which relates to, if a public official can accept ■çgi after they have taken some official action, and in snyder specifically, just having that for the majority, the statute doesn't apply if gifts are given when an official has committed an act, because there are gratuities -- because they are gratuities and not bribes, and state and locals will regulate how state and local officials can accept gifts. this is consistent with the weakening of corruption laws that we have seen from this court, and obviously, it shouldn't be a surprise, given how the court has treated its own ethics issues and the acceptance of gift from industry and others.■ç >> i'm sure my viewers will find it very surprising that you can provide gratuities in exchange for legislative service. i kind of feel like that should just be illegal. thanks for being here today. donald sherman is the executive director of the group citizens of responsibility and ethics in washington. another editorial about thursday night's debate has dropped. this one from the editorial board at the philadelphia inquirer. it's got a different twist to it. the headline reads, to serve his country. donald trump should leave the race. president joe biden's debate performance was a disaster. his disjointed responses and dazed looks sparked calls for him to drop out of the presidential race. lost in the handwringing was donald trump's usual bombastic litany ñ■ñiñiof hyperbole, bigotry, ignorance, and ■çfear mongering. he demonstrated once again that he is a danger to democracy and unfit for office. this is seemingly in response to the new york times editorial board, which published an editorial saying the opposite that biden should leave the race to serve his country. we will be right back. from every other gutter protection on the market. with leaffilters, patented filter technology, there are no gaps, no openings, no place for debris to get in at all. and we install leaffilter on your existing gutters. it's a permanent solution. you'll never have to climb a ladder to clean out your gutters again. that's amazing, chris. tell me about the process. simple and easy. just give us a call, set up an appointment. we'll come out and give you a free gutter inspection. if they're sagging, we'll repair them. if they're broken, we'll replace them. if they're in good shape, our local team will install leaffilter in as little as a few hours. wow. and i understand you guys have a lifetime no clogs guarantee? 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(dog bark) it's just smarter, healthier pet food. it's amazing what real food can do. >> five states in >> five states in this country have abortion bans that do not consider the health of the pregnant patient. abortion bans with no health exceptions■ç. in arkansas, mississippi, oklahoma, south dakota, and texas, pregnant people who meet emergency abortions will be denied care until their conditions deteriorate to the point where an abortion would save their life. idaho somewhat falls into this category as well, but the supreme court just punted a case regarding emergency abortions in idaho. the court declined to protect emergency abortion care for patients across the country. this means a lower court ruling that allowed doctors in idaho in emergency situations remains in effect for now. women in the states literally need to cheat death in order to get the care that they need. that's exactly what happened to nicole miller in idaho. she was hemorrhaging at 20 weeks pregnant, but her doctor told her he wasn't willing to risk his career to save her life because of idaho's abortion ban.■ç our correspondent has her story. >> i was supreme court friday announcing a six week ban will go into effect. but as lawmakers across the country grapple with shifting laws, families and doctors are caught in the middle. >> completely confused. i was terrified. >> like nicole miller in idaho. the 39-year-old mother was overjoyed when she found out she was expecting a son. but 17 weeks into the pregnancy, she started bleeding. >> they rushed me to the e.r.. >> she says she couldn't believe what the doctor told her. >> he wouldn't risk his 20 year career. and i was shocked. i was in a hospital with doctors who could help me, anl ■nobody wanted to help me. >> because they were in idaho, which bans nearly all abortions, nicole was flown to utah. she is now part of a lawsuit. >> i just kept thinking that i would never see my girls again. >> bleeding, worried about your life, and then to get on an airplane -- >> it felt horrible. it felt like nobody was willing to take care of me and they were just kind of passing me off. i remember that day, saying that almost everybody walked in the room, i don't want to die. i want to be here for my kids. and the fact that no #=>ñ■óioko do anything until we got to utah was just ■çunimaginable. >> many say navigating the shifting legal landscape is a challenge. the reality is, with these ciccone and abortion bans, including the one in idaho, doctors are afraid to give what is the standard of care. what happened to nicole shocks the conscience. the fact that anyone suffering a pregnancy complication as serious as her circumstances had to be lifted out by plane to another state to get abortion care is absolutely unacceptable. >> every case is different. and we have a job threatens with jail time. i think most people are being sent out of state. >> earlier this year, said that's ■çnot happening. >> it's really hard for me to conceive of a single instance where a woman has to be airlifted out of idaho to perform an abortion. >> i heard about that. anger. it makes me want to shout from the rooftops that this happens, and it happened to me. >> the attorney general tells nbc news he can't understand why a doctor would deny a woman life-saving treatment. doctors are protected. back to you. >> thank you for that amazing reporting. of next, another casualty of this current supreme court -- affirmative action. a new documentary retraces the legal debate and the forces behind the dismantling of race conscious admissions at colleges and universities.■ç this airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern. after a quick rate, i will talk to two voices featured in the film. we will be right back. keep it simple...with clear, upfront pricing. with usps ground advantage®. ♪♪ everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. my life is full of questions... mom, is yellow a light or a dark? how do i clean an aioli stain? thankfully, tide's the answer to almost all of them. why do we even buy napkins? —use tide. —can cold water clean white socks? it can with tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. this is chocolate, right? —just use... —tide... yeah. no matter who's doing it, on what cycle, or in what temperature, tide works. so i can focus on all the other questions. —do crabs have eyebrows? —ahh... for all of life's laundry questions... it's got to be tide. ♪ ♪ for all of life's laundry qu[ grunts ] [ laughs ] >> a defining >> a defining theme of the trump era has been two steps back. donald trump leveraged a grievance among the slice of the american electorate that was deeply afraid of being left behind by the country's march toward greater equality during the obama years. even in one term as president, he's continued to advance the cause in the years since he left office and will continue to do so even if he loses again this fall. a huge part of that sustained power is the outsized impact he had on the supreme court, installing three conservative justices and cementing a 6-3 super majority which has since laid waste to decades yuçóof precedent and snatched away long-held personal rights■ç. th overturning of roe v wade is the most obvious example. the jurisprudence is littered with reversals of programs and institutions that were designed to create a more equitable america and repair some of the damage done by generations of traditional iced discrimination. this weekend marks one year since one of those landmark cases. one year ago yesterday, the six conservatives overturned affirmative action programs at colleges and universities, a system used for more than 60 years 12 identify qualified students who would otherwise be qualified or not have access to top programs. the case was brought against harvard and the university of north carolina vice it is for their admissions, a group started by edward bloom with a long history of organizing lawsuits against affirmative action programs and voting rights laws.■ç these court cases are the subject of a brand-new msnbc the films documentary that premieres tonight at 9:00 p.m. called admissions granted. the film traces the lawsuits which argue that affirmative action policies at both universities discriminated against white and asian applicants in favor of black, hispanic, and native american applicants. here's a clip. >> where whites might feel uncomfortable, say, protesting, sometimes it feels like pushing the asian protesters right to the stage. maybe seeming a little anti- black. >> what can you say about the community's opinion on affirmative action and why were some people willing to be used as a pond for this? >> that's so funny. >> i ■çthink it's very frustratg that, you know, asian americans are the face of this. that they are wedged on this issue. >> there is some amount of using, but on the other hand, this is what political alliance is are all about. you find common cause. >> may be in terms of fighting for asian americans, i'm pretty sure we are on the same page. >> if they were really concerned, don't you think they would ask for relief for asian americans? >> that division within the community is something that really needs attention. it is, i think, disingenuous to say asian americans don't criticize affirmative action and don't have any problem with it, and therefore, they are just being used. that ic çnot respecting the diversity among asian americans. >> all right. on the other side of the break, i'm going to be joined by the law professor you just saw in that clip, as well as dean emerita of harvard university's law school and president of -- college. college. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved i thought i'd buy stilts. hi honey. ahhh...ooh. look, no line at the hot dog stand. yes! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty.♪ if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd like to be. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ok y'all we got ten orders coming in.. big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant.. that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs. the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. this summer. snacking. just. got. serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers. the world might not be ready for them... ...but at $3 a pop? your wallet definitely is. dave's company just scored the ...but at comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. high five! high five... -i'm on a call. it's 5 years of reliable, gig speed internet... five years of advanced security... five years of a great rate that won't change. yep, dave's feeling it. yes. but it's only for a limited time. five years? -five years. introducing the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering 5 years of savings. powering possibilities. >> before the >> before the break, i told you about a brand-new documentary by msnbc debate and the forces behind the dismantling of affirmative action ■çin america. it's called admissions granted in a premieres tonight on msnbc at 9:00 a.m. eastern. joining me now are two of the voices featured in the documentary. president of mount holyoke college, the first permanent black president in the colleges 180 exterior his. also a former dean and professor at the howard university school of law. jeannie gersten is a law professor at harvard law school and a writer for the new yorker. in 2010, she became the first asian-american woman to be awarded tenure at harvard law. thank you for joining us. let me start with you. while asian americans were, as this documentary indicates, the face of the affirmative action discrimination cases, the cases were brought by a group called students for their admissions which is■ç started by edward bloom, who's got a long history of organizing these lawsuits against affirmative action programs. you organize the lawsuits that we are finding multiple plaintiffs who fit the bill to bring the suits. talk to me about why that unlikely relationship ended up being, for some people, mutually beneficial? >> like it or not, it is a zero- sum situation in which when you admit certain people, other people are not going to be admitted. i think that that meant that for some asian americans in the asian-american community, they felt that the use of affirmative action to give a boost to certain racial groups mentz that asian americans in general were being discriminated against. ■ç and i do think that that was a very complicated issue, because there is the issue of pacific disinformation against asian americans on the one hand and the use of affirmative action to boost underrepresented minorities on the other hand. they actually were two separate conceptual issues, but they kind of became blended together in this lawsuit. that's why the asian-american plaintiffs and the conservative activists that were against affirmative action from the beginning were able to find common cause in the litigation. >> danielle, affirmative action programs in higher education have been used for decades as a way to help identify qualified, yet otherwise possibly overlooked students gain access to top schools. as the president of a college, what are the consequences of this decision that occurred a year ago, and how have things actuadlx changed in admissions? >> it's great to be on with you today. it has had large-scale consequences in the first year. i think one of the biggest challenges is that the supreme court really attacked the notion that holistic admissions, which consider race, are to the benefit of all students and to the benefit of our in dictations of higher education. we are responsible as colleges and universities not just to turn out engineers and lawyers and doctors and other people who help in society, but to really produce lawyers in a multiracial democracy and in an increasingly global world. and that requires that we really have a student body that looks like america and looks like the world. and so when the supreme court attacked specifically the notion of holistic ■çadmissions that really hurt the program of higher education in general and what we do at colleges and universities to help to produce leaders for the united states and around the world. >> jd, while this decision came out last year, it could be seen by some as a continuation of this new supreme court super majority reshaping the future of this country by reversing long-standing precedent that had aimed to make this country a more fair place. one may agree or disagree as to whether affirmative action did that, but the goals were to undo prior damage in the united states. we are now 24 hours away from the trump community opinion coming down. so we now have questions -- i discussed it a lot during the ■ç show -- about the legitimacy of this court, or at least how people see the legitimacy of the court. how do you connect to these two things? an actual decision and questions about whether this court makes decisions properly. >> well, i think that the affirmative action decision, along with the abortion decision two years ago, the two of them really were the first shots across the bow, basically signaling that the supreme court was willing to, in fact, reshape the legal system. in the precedents that were already on the books were all going to be reconsidered if they had a history of being challenged by the conservative legal movement. and so abortion was the first one, and i'll affirmative action, and we are going to see a series of other areas,■ç including areas of guns and voting rights and further on abortion. and so i think we are really in the midst of that kind of transformation. the supreme court has had those periods before. in the 1960s, went through a very progressive transformation, and now we are in a conservative area. decisions that are 40, 50 years old, those are going to be reconsidered, and the supreme court is going to be very confident and unabashed about doing that. the question of legitimacy you raised, i think lots of people do can enter these as illegitimate, because it is combined with his willingness to undo decisions that they like. and also, because of the scandals that the supreme court has had to withstp ethics, the whole combination of things means that we are in a period where the authority of the supreme court is being questioned by the public. but i think it's important also to keep in mind that this is like the tide coming in and the type going out. the supreme court has regressive areas and conservative eras. >> this is interesting. let's, for a moment, let's take legitimacy scandals out of the equation and let's discuss this idea of progressive eras in the '60s were things move forward and a conservative era. do we have the same legitimacy questions in the second act 60s about the progressive areas of the court, wears out a little bit different now? >> advocates erzz:ótremendously different, as i think the ethics questions are ■çdifferen and also just a substantial overturning of precedent with very little substantiation for it. if you take the chevron of returning from just a few days ago, the chief justice simply said, the courts are better at doing this job than the legislature and the executive. and so it's a power grab by the supreme court over areas of the law in which they used to respect precedent, and now they seem to no longer respect it. so while i agree that there have been periods of progressive activism and we are in a period of conservative activism, we are in a period where there is a tremendous disrespect by the supreme court of their own precedent. and so it makes the law highly unpredictable, and also for institutions like colleges and universities, and means of the grounds are shifting underneath it will have real consequences in our society over the next few generations to have the tools that we need as institutions, including administrative agencies, colleges and universities, disrupted by an activist supreme court. >> thank you to both of you for an important conversation. daniel holly is the president and dean emeritus of howard university lost will. and a contributing writer for the new yorker. admissions granted premieres tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern, only on msnbc the. that does it for me. catch me back here every saturday and sunday morning from 10:00 a.m. until noon each turn. you can follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcast.■ç you can also catch velshi content on youtube. you can go to msnbc.com. they were you are. nancy pelosi joins my colleague, jen psaki, next on inside with jen psaki. begins right now. it was a debate that started a five alarm fire inside the democratic party. for now, joe biden is pushing ahead and rejecting calls to step aside. i have never been more curious about the take on things than i am right now, and he's coming up first. plus, we get our first look at

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