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"all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> it was a presidential debate unlike any in american history. >> the question is, the question is -- will you shut up, man? >> tonight, the substance, style and stakes of this week's debate. >> he cannot stop you from being able to determine the outcome of this election. >> by way of the unbelievable event from 2020. >> a lot of people have died and a lot more will die unless he gets a lot smarter. >> don't ever use the word smart with me. >> then is the political ground actually shifting postconviction? >> the guilty in the new york case, the movement is among independence. >> and the jaw-dropping new pictures from the man who did everything right. >> i did everything right and they indicted me. >> top-secret documents found stashed next to christmas tchotchkes and diet coke, when "all in" starts now. good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. we are two days away from the first presidential debate of 2024. a strange one in so many ways. it's coming very early, before the major party conventions, earlier than we've seen in years and also for the first time since ronald reagan was president it is happening without any involvement from the nonprofit commission on presidential debates. they've been basically cast aside. the show is being run by cnn and jake tapper and dana bash. there will be no live audience. there will be live coverage here on msnbc. they are making it open to everyone to stream. now, the race between these two men is neck and neck in virtually every corner, like dead heat. an unprecedented high-stakes moment in the nation's history. all year long one of the themes of the show as we think about the election has been to go back and remember what it was actually like four years ago, because honestly i think we all blocked it out. 2020 is a blur for many reasons. a strange and traumatic. of our lives. it was also in donald trump was running as the actual incumbent president with an actual record and we would do well to remember that and remember that record. nowhere is that more true than when trump and joe biden got together that september for the first debate, which is where we start tonight. it was one of the most bizarre and shocking exhibitions by donald trump, by any politician ever, really, and we didn't even know the half of it at the time. the global death toll from covid had just passed 1 million and the united states, with 4% of the worlds population, accounted for nearly 20% of total deaths. 200,000 people. there were no vaccines and no immunity. there were huge debates about schools and businesses reopening. restaurants, hotels and everything and what is and isn't safe and donald trump took the lead on urging people to get back out and boost the economy. the first debate was cohosted by one of the largest medical providers in the country under strict and painstakingly negotiated rules as the moderator, chris wallace, pointed out that evening. >> this debate is conducted under health and safety protocols designed by the cleveland clinic, which is serving as the health security advisor to the commission for all four debates. as a precaution both campaigns have agreed that candidates will not shake hands at the beginning of tonight's debate. >> a little time capsule, right? it turned out that bit about the safety protocols was not true because what we now know is that donald trump had covid on stage at that debate. he tested positive and intentionally hit it from the debate organizers. trump also hid it from chris christie when the former governor helped him with debate prep in the same room, talking at each other for hours. christie, you may remember, had a case of covid that landed him in the icu for a week and left him literally fighting for his life again, i think we have all forgotten this. everyone remembers trump had covid and we learned he had covid, but forgot he had covid at the debate and it is the perfect example of donald trump's complete recklessness when it came to the virus. shedding virus everywhere, endangering everyone who came in contact with him including the man he was running against, at a time, again, when there was no vaccine to fight the pandemic, which was causing the largest surge in all cause mortality and basically a century. in the middle of that trump's message was, i did great. the mac we got the gowns, we got the masks, we made the ventilators and now we are weeks away from a vaccine. we are doing therapeutics already. fewer people are dying. when they get sick, far fewer people are dying. we've done a great job. the only thing i haven't done a good job, that's because of the fake news. no matter what you say to them they give you the bad press. it is fake news. >> again, i can't stress this enough. at that very moment trump was spreading the virus he is claiming to have conquered, having kept that knowledge from everyone else. he knows he is positive, while joe biden was pushing the issue. >> look, you folks at home, how many of you got up this morning and had an empty chair at the kitchen table because someone died of covid? how many of you are in a situation where you lost your mom or dad and could not even speak to them? you had a nurse holding the phone up so you could say goodbye. >> you would've lost far more people. >> by the way, his own cdc director says we can lose as many as another 200,000 people between now and the end of the year. if we just wear a mask we can save half those numbers. >> biden was right in a general sense about the importance of masks at that moment. it is worth remembering at that debate trump's entourage took their masks off after the got in the room after being asked to wear them. they refused to put them back on even after a doctor from the cleveland clinic requested the face coverings be used. who knows how many of his own people he infected. remember, there was no vaccine yet, even though trump was on stage claiming credit for a vaccine that had not yet been developed. >> we are going to deliver it right away. we have the military all set up, logistically. we have our military that delivers soldiers and they can do 200,000 a day. >> this is the same man who told you by easter this would go away. by the warm weather it would be gone, like a miracle. by the way, maybe inject some bleach in your arm and that would take care of it. >> that was said sarcastically, you know it. >> here's the deal, this man is talking about a vaccine. every serious company is talking about maybe having a vaccine done by the end of the year, but the distribution of that vaccine will not occur until sometime beginning in the middle of next year to get it out, if we get the vaccine. and pray to god we will. >> mister vice president i want to pick up -- >> on that biden was right. the first vaccines got fda approval at the end of the year. did not get approval for broad use until after trump left office. by then another 200,000 americans have died from the virus as biden said would happen and as for the bleach, tell me if you think trump is being sarcastic. >> so, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it is ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and i think you said that has been tested. i'm suppose you brought the light inside the body, which you can do, in some other way and i you said you're going to test that, too. and then i see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute and is there a way we can do something like that. by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because it does a tremendous number, so it will be interesting to check that. >> just get some uv light up in those orifices. sarcastic? the reaction suggests those were genuine, earnest even suggestions. but as much as the coronavirus dominated a lot, it was not the only contentious issue four years ago. that debate was being held, and i forgot until being reminded today, that was held 11 days after her supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg had died and just three days after trump announced his nomination of amy coney barrett to fill the vacancy on the court. everyone knew they would rush ahead to put her on the court, despite the fact they had done the opposite, mitch mcconnell, in 2016. at the time biden warned that the confirmation would put roe v. wade at risk. >> the president also was opposed to roe v. wade. that's on the ballot as well, in the court, so that is also at stake right now. >> you don't know it is on the ballot. why is it on the ballot? why is it on the ballot? it's not on the ballot. i don't think so. >> in the court. >> there's nothing happening there. you don't know her view on roe v. wade. >> you don't know her view. conservatives love that one. you don't know her view on roe v. wade. everyone knew her view of course and of course she was in the conservative majority to end roe v. wade. something, four years later, trump was happy to take credit for. >> for 54 years they were trying to get roe v. wade terminated and i did it and i am proud to have done it. right? there would be no question. >> he could have just told the truth at the debate. perhaps he feared he would hurt her confirmation chances. overall as you've seen, how can i put this, let's say less than presidential. >> that's not true. >> gentlemen i hate to raise my voice, but why should i be different than the two of you? >> good point. >> we have six segments. we vended that segment and were going to the next segment. in that segment to each will have uninterrupted minutes. you can say anything you want. i'm going to ask a question about race, but if you want to answer about something else, go ahead, but i think the country would be better served if we allowed both people to speak with fewer interruptions. i'm appealing to you, sir, to do that. >> and him, too. >> rankle you've been doing more interrupting. >> he does plenty. >> no, less than you are. >> that was a big thing. that was the worst part. >> sir, let me ask my question. >> by the way, i brought back big in football. it was me and i am very happy to do it. the people of ohio are very proud of me. >> mister president, i am the moderator of this debate and i would like you to let me ask my question and then you can answer. >> you are the last in your class. >> i want to make sure day >> mister president can you let him finish? >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> the question is -- >> the radical left -- >> would you shut up, man? >> who is on your list, joe? >> gentlemen, we have ended the segment. we are going to move on to the second segment. >> that was really a productive segment, wasn't it? >> the people understand -- >> joe biden breaking centuries of decorum to tell the president of the united states, will you shut up, man? fully deserved. trump brought the same sophomoric energy to the last part of the first debate in 2020. again, i kind of block to this out. i knew this had happened. questions about whether the election would be free, fair, and acceptable and already trump was sowing the seeds of the big lie and all of the associated conspiracy theories that he lost. >> if you look at pennsylvania, if you look at certain states that have been shut down, they have democrat governors all. one of the reasons they shut down is because they want to keep it shut down until after the election. did you see what is going on? take a look at west virginia, mailing and selling ballots. they are being sold. they are being dumped in rivers. this is a horrible thing for our country. this is not going to end well. this is not going to end well. >> will you word your supporters to stay calm during this extended period, not to engage in any civil unrest and will you pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently certified? president trump? >> i'm urging my supporters to go to the polls and watch very carefully, because that is what has to happen. i am urging them to do it. as you know today there was a big problem. in philadelphia they went to watch. they are called poll watchers, a very safe, very nice thing. they were thrown out. they weren't allowed to watch and you know why? because bad things happen in adelphia, bad things and i am urging my people. i hope it will be a fair election. if it is a fair election i am 100% on board, but if i see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, i can't go along with that. i will tell you what it means, it means a fraudulent election. you send out 80 million ballots. these people are not equipped to handle it, number one. number two, they cheat. they found ballots in a wastepaper basket three days ago and they were military. they all had the name trump on them. >> yeah, remember when trump keeps saying this will not end well? an ominous sign of what was to come. by the way, here is how joe biden answered the same questions. >> this is all about trying to dissuade people from voting because he is trying to scare people into thinking that it is not going to be legitimate. show up and vote. you will determine the outcome of this election. vote, vote, vote. if you are able to vote early in your state, vote early. if you are able to vote in person, vote in person. whatever way is the best for you, because he cannot stop you from being able to determine the outcome of this election and in terms of whether or not when the votes are all counted, that will be accepted. if i win that will be accepted, if i lose that will be accepted, but by the way if in fact he says he is not sure he is going to accept, let me tell you something. it doesn't matter, because if we get the votes it will be all over. he's going to go. he can't stay in power. it won't happen. so vote. >> you know how that all played out. on january 6 with a capital insurrection as thousands of trump supporters led by militant groups like the proud boys, many of whom have been convicted of sedition, nearly tried to kill trump's on vice president to stop the certification of the election. bashing in the brains of cops, leaving them bloody. breaking windows. it is worth playing this portion of that first debate, the one you probably do remember. >> you have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out antifa and other left-wing extremist groups, but are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacist and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in kenosha and portland? go ahead, sir. >> i would say almost everything i see is from the left-wing, not from the right wing. i am willing to do anything. >> then do it, sir. >> say it. >> what do you want to call them? give me a name. >> white supremacists. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by, but i tell you what, somebody has got to do something about antifa and the left because this is not a right-wing problem, this is a left wing. >> antifa is an idea, not an organization. his fbi, his fbi direct or said. >> gentlemen -- >> stand back and stand by. all the warnings were there. it was all there. the first debate between donald trump and joe biden, before the election, before january 6, it was clear as day. as it has been, honestly, from the time he came down the escalator, but certainly that moment, who donald trump was and who he is about and what he was going to do if he lost. right? he is the same man today doing a new election and a new debate four years later, although to be clear, not entirely the same. since then he is four years older and has been found liable for massive corporate fraud. he has been found responsible for sexually assaulting a woman and defaming her. 34 felony counts of falsifying business records for paying off women he had sex with to keep them talking before the election. he has three more criminal trials pending. he is manifestly even more consumed by revenge and conspiracy. he is also more addled, plainly, even then he was in 2020. and while the stakes of that election felt existential and they were, well, here we are again and the stakes are somehow even higher. it's not wet food. it's just real food. it's an idea whose time has come. if you have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease... put it in check with rinvoq... a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check! when flares kept trying to slow me down i got lasting steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check! and when my doctor saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check! for both uc and crohn's: rapid symptom relief lasting steroid-free remission. and visibly reduced damage. check. check. and check! rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers, including lymphoma and skin, heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. people 50 and older with a heart disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc and crohn's in check ...and keep them there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. christian nationalists are mobilizing. they want to turn america into a christian theocracy. our secular democracy is in danger. all personal liberties are in jeopardy. vote like your rights depend on it. and join the freedom from religion foundation, an association of atheists and agnostics working to keep religion and government separate. oh, why leaffilter? 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>> listen, i think it is even bigger than the democratic party. it is the nation. our and mental freedoms are on the ballot this november. you know, chris, you did a great job taking us down memory lane. i want to go back a few years before that in 2016. remember when donald trump said you should vote for me, what do you have to lose? well, we now know the answer to that. one third of women in this country now do not have reproductive freedom. they do not have the rights to control their own health care decisions and we know what donald trump wants to continue to do. this is a guy who said he wants to be a dictator on day one. what president have we ever heard those words uttered out