which presidential candidates kick their campaigns into full year. well, the start of this election year summer it's unlike anything wave seen before. in onewa week president biden a former president trump will face-off in the earliest election debate in modern history. the biden campaign made a deliberate choice to challenge trump to an early debate to force voters to reckon with the reality of the choice they're goingof have to make sooner ratr than later. today we got new details about how that debate is going to play out. independent candidate robert f. kennedy jr. officially failing to qualify. biden will be standing at the podium on the right of the television screen while trump will have the podium on the left, the same configuration as the two debates held four years ago. donald trump got to choose the order of thedo closing statemen. he chose to go last, giving him the final word. we also got new details how the two candidates plan to prepare for the debate. tonight president biden arrived at camp div udwhere he's expected to spend the weekend engaging in discussions with hih campaign officials. in contrast trump is with his top aides and vice presidential officials at big rallies. normally they'd be managing expectation, trying to paint their candidateat as the underd. but this as you know not a normal debate season. for the last few months trump and his conservative allies have been working tire lassly to convince voters joe biden is a feebleminded old man in the throes of civility. in order to down-play expectations, conservative media has been trying to invent a reason why joe biden might appear more cogent their viewers have been led to expect, which is why fox news is scrambling to promote the basis conspiracy theory joe biden is secretly on drugs. >> he's going to be hyped up, hypercaffeinated, whatever it is. it's interesting 70% of the country does like the idea of drug testing. i like the idea. >> should there be drug testing before these debates? >> maria, i tell you i absolutely agree with that. you can tell joe biden comes in, he's jacked up. >> joe biden was jacked up. i'm assuming they'll probably try to, you know, redo that. >> i was in the "state of the union" address and joe biden must havend been jacked up on something that day. >> yesterday donald trump was pulling the bar saying he was on stuff. expect we expect a similar performance on this debate so be on the look out with a wide-eyed joe biden. >> if you're following along joe biden wants you to believe joe biden is senile but he also has super drugs that will turbocharge him. this week donald trump promoted the theory joe biden will be on drugs during the debate during a rally in wisconsin. >> he's going to be pumped up. you know all the stuff missing about a t week ago from the whi house. somebody didn't pick up hundreds of thousands of the dollars worth of cocaine. iof wonder who that could have been? i don't know. actually, i think it was joe. >> like i said, this is not your normal start to an election season. looming over all of this is the fact for the first time in history one of the two candidates on the debate stage, a recently convicted felon, is currently awaiting sentencing. this week we also started to see signs the reality of a second trump term might be starting to break with b voters. yesterday fox news poll found joe biden pulling 2 points ahead of donald trump, a three point shift since may. key tonc that a big 11-point sht towardsg biden in the last mon. trump's 34 counts marked the first inflection point in the campaign. joining me now jess mackintosh, former communications advisor for hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. and tim miller, writer at large at the bulwark and msnbc political analyst. thank you both for being here. jess, i want to start with you. what does it say to you republicans now feel they have n to manage expectations around how excellent joe biden might be during the debate, and that the way they have chosen to do that is suggesting that perhaps he's on some type of performance enhancing drug. >> if there was a magical drug that would reverse civility and dimension, whoever invented that would be rolling in so much money right now there'd be no way to keep that secret. very strange. this whole play has been strange for that part.fo i've been wondering about their inability to lower expectations on this. they got burned in the "state of the union" when presidentin bid came out and was clear and forceful and presidential and authoritative and all the things they said he possibly couldn't be. and they clearly know they got burned on that, too. that's probably why they're trying to make this mad dash scramble at the last minute. their team, with trump every accusation is an admission. whatever he says you're doing, he's doing. the syntax doesn't make a lot of sense. he held a round table with ceos who were predisposed to support him whoos left less inclined to support him because he could not hold a thought. they wereot concerned. these are pro-business ceos who should be in trump's corner who were too concerned about his inability to follow a conversation to continue to support him. that's the candidate they have to put up nextsu week. i mean it looks like a desperate play because it is. >> right, to underscore that desperation, tim, not only are donald trump and his allies talking aboutis biden, they're also lashing out on truth social today saying he, quote, looks forward to seeing president biden at the fake debate on thursday. he's also attacking the moderators. the fact he feels the need to undermine the debate not necessarily desurprising, but is still ait tell, tim. >> it's definitely a tell. i think it's a tell they realize they've got overey their skis o the dementia joe thing, and now the expectations are way out of whack and now they're grasping for anything, you know, to try to change the narrative around this. it'se crazy just listening to that,us alicia. i turn on fox from time to time to know what's going on over there, but justto the amount of discussion about this fake conspiracy that they came up with, that a sober joe biden all of a sudden decided at age 80 he's going to start doing uppers. it's so wild like the fake news that is happening over there, to borrow a phrase. it would be like if i right now on this panel was like i think donald trump might need a diaper on the debate stage next week and then for two days everyone was like what do you think of the diaper strategy, should he have a diaper, not have a diaper? i do think it shows they don't have a lot to work with. >> let's talk about the idea what's not going to be a part of the debate, this idea which podium you choose. we know donald trump was incensed during his new york case that he did not get to make his closing argument. does any of that actually matter? >> the truth is almost everybody tuning into a presidential debate has already made their mind up, so let's say that right there.ei what this is going to do is torpedo several of the arguments being used against president biden, and i'm not seeing that happen the other way. trump is a showman. he's an entertainer and he's very good at that, so i'm sure at the end of all his reality shows he got to have the last word. i was in college when that show was on. it would end with him in the boardroom, and he would dispense some wisdom the producers had written for him, and that was how the show ended. i'm sure he got used to that formialic, and he has the idea whoever speaks last is going to linger in the minds of everyone is watching. that's not the way most people process information. it's just not important what side of the stage you're standing. i'm glad president biden chose the sides where he beat him last time. i'm sure that matters more to donald trump than it matters to him. >> you have debates on the horizon and timothy melon is giving $50 million to a protrump group. and we're learning billionaire michael bloomberg was going to give $20 million to biden's pacs. help us understand that level of money, what it means. that's more money than most of us can wrab occupy heads around and what it means at this point in the race. >> joe biden has had a huge advantage to date, and i think that in addition to conviction explains the poll movement you mentioned in the intro. melon is going to help trump level the playing field. i think it's worth noting trump has changed his tune on several issues because a couple of billionaires have given him money, specifically the tiktok ban and there's others recently. trump understood there was a gap, felt he needed money and there was an element of desperation to it, and i think that is starting to get shored up on the trump side of things. the one other thing that is related tohe both the ads and t debate building on what jess said, i don't know there'st anybody out there switching from trump toyb biden after the deba. i'm sure there'll be somebody or vice versa, but i think the important thing for biden in that ad campaign from bloomberg and also on the debate stages, there's ae group of democratically aligned voters that aren'ted onboard with them right now. maybe they're concerned about his age, maybe it's inflation, but you see it in all the numbers. the democratic senator is running ahead of him. that's biden's goal next week, to remind people that base, why they like him. the swing voter is also important. that's the low hanging fruit that i think biden has a little room to grow in the polls if he can bring those folks in the democratic coalition traditionally back in thede cam. >> new reporting in "the new york times" about a slide in support for president biden among women dropping from 13 points to 8 points since the 2020 election. that is part of the constituency that he's got to win back. >> yeah, i think tim is absolutely correct. i think that's the big -- biden is t talking to the democratic base.ic i think trump is also talking to his base, but trump has been very clear he's not interested in adding new voters to the people who voted for him in 2020. >> he's telling people to keep their votes to themselves. >> he's nothing to broaden that. biden doesn't have that strategy. biden needs everybody he got in 2020 and he wants more than that. i think especially with women there is a lot of contrast here. and if joe biden is interested in talking about the absolute decimation ofbo reproductive freedom and donald trump being responsible for that, the reason why we have women dying from miscarriage, the reason why we have women scared to travel while pregnant, the reason why we have people putting off starting families or adding to families is because we do have donald trump. especially with the upcoming attacks on ivf and birth control that trump is also behind, i see that writing itself. >> and jess, i will say sort of the j caveat here being, one, they're talking about a lot of folks not tuned in yet, to your point, who aren't necessarily following every movement of this election. and yes, in polling some of those women may say that inflation, which i think has become sort of a catch all for economic insecurity more broadly because i think you could talk about corporate greed as much as you talk about inflation, if you're talking about prices going t up. it polls higher than re-pro rights. it doesn't necessarily mean it is the issue that dives you out to the polls. >> absolutely. andls the cost of living is something you deal with multiple times of a day, and it's a lot harder to see who the villain is there. it's pricese gouging. it's corporate greed. it's supply chain issues that are still being worked out post pandemic. it's a global thing. every country is talking about the cost of living. it's not just us. but you itinteract with that evy day. when you interact with your reproductive rights, it is a foundational, intimate, never forget experience. and when you actually stop and think about what it means to have a politician take away your decision when and whether to have a child, what does that mean for, you know, couples that are going to need ivf to conceive, what about women starting a career in their 20s and don't want to have families until they're ino their 30s. it's not just about about the ability to access abortion every woman interacts, every person that can get pregnant interacts with their idea of reproductive freedom. having politicians all of a sudden be in charge of that, that's the kind of issue that really motivates you. that's the kind of issue you get out of the house regardless of howou bizza your schedule is, y vote on, and you know who to blame for it. it's really hard to make one vote work for inflation, but we lost roe v. wade because of donald trump, and we'll lose more if he's president again. and people will understand that it's and easy case to make. >> tim, part of a reason that we're talking about a presidential debate in june is the biden campaign understood this binary choice needed to be beforeoi voters as soon as possible. we talked about in context of the debates, there's also eric levts at fox pointing out this week as of late may the biden campaign was airing $13.6 million worth of ads while the trump campaign has yet to spend a sing slot on campaign ads. that's because the biden campaign knows they have to set the narrative for this race, right? >> yeah, absolutely. and i think it's also the biden campaign had the money and the trump campaign didn't because they're spending on his lawyersp and struggling to raise money. so they had the money to spend. yeah, look, they need to set the narrative. and the biden campaign going back to this group you're talking about whetherth it's women, working class black hispanic men, whether it's young voters, there's a young group and tend to be ones that aren't tuning into the news traditionally democrats that right now aren't going for biden at the rates biden needs. it's tv ads, tiktok, paid surrogates, it's ground game. all of that they have to start doing a little bit earlier to reach those folks because that's the way to reach them. they're not being reached on news programs with traditional media. >> jess mackintosh, tim miller, thank you both for getting us started tonight. and we have a lot to get to. the governor of louisiana tries to tempt the supreme court to dismantle the separation between church and state. we'll discussat why it just mig work, that's coming upmism. plus, explosive new reporting about the florida judge overseeing donald trump's criminal prosecution over classified documents. that is next. prosecution over classified documents that is next known for following your dreams. known for keeping with tradition. known for discovering new places. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 17 types of cancer, including certain 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train whistle i couldn't escape. then i started taking lipo flavonoid. with 60 years of clinical experience, it's the number one doctor recommended brand for ear ringing. and now i'm finally free. take back control with lipo flavonoid. judge aileen cannon was first randomly assigned to first oversee donald trump's criminal trial over handling classified documents. and questions were repeatedly raised whether she was the right judge to handle it. there was the fact of her relative experience. she'd presided over four short routine cases, nothing close to the complexity of involving federal criminal charges against the president. since taking the case her rulings has sparked more questions by legal experts about the way she's overseeing it. now today a blockbuster. "the new york times" reporting indicates those legal experts are not alone. judge cannon's own colleagues expressed concern about her taking to the case. according to "the times" just after cannon drew the assignment two more experienced colleagues on the bench in florida urged her to pass it up and hand it off to another jurist. judge cannon refused, which leads us to where we are today with a case that has stalled indefinitely favoring donald trump's defense strategy of delay, delay, delay. joining me now msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. lisa, thank you so much for being here. i always come to you with these trump legal stories and ask you to contextualize how big a story it is. you were kicked back on your heels by this story. >> i was texting our producer earlier today and i think i looked like the person in the commercial from the 1980s sitting back in their seat like this. and alicia, here is why. the very fact this story exists is almost as big of a deal as the fact two different colleagues who are colleagues of judge cannon's called her up and asked her to consider removing herself from the case. and the reason is this federal judges have lifetime tenure. they are generally perceived to be able to be secure in their jobs, and they don't talk about one another and their cases outside of school. this is akin to politico's decision to the dobbs draft decision and "the new york times" reporting about all the consideration that led up to dobbs in the first place, the fact the justices had essentially voted among themselves to take the case but concealed that from the public for a long time. the very fact someone wants to give the public insight into these processes that are happening behind the scenes, including the fact that two more senior judges are calling judge cannon and asking her to consider stepping back from the case, that in and of itself is a huge deal separate and apart from the substance of the conversations. >> part of it was her relative inexperience, but there was also her ruling that made it seem as though there could be an appearance of bias. >> yeah, and i think part of what we're doing here is a little bit of a speculative dance, right? because all we have is "the new york times" wording to go by it, and i don't want to parse it too closely, but it seems like this could have been a coordinated effort where the first judge calls and says, hey, we don't have a secure facility in force pierce for you to review these documents, would you consider handing this off to a miami judge because there is such a facility there. when judge cannon says no, then the chief judge of the district not nominated by a democratic president but by george w. bush, calls her and makes it a little bit more plain. hey, you had a rough time of it there when you handled the civil suit that was related to the mar-a-lago search, and essentially says to her not you're too inexperienced to do this, maybe this would be better handled by an experienced judge but almost insiniates, your prior experience with this case or something closely related thereto, raises questions about you're either competence, your bias, or both. that conversation is happening between two colleagues, both of equal stature at least in terms of the law is staggering. >> help me understand that piece of it, just how usual or unusual is it for judges to have these types of conversations peer to peer? >> i can't recall another situation in which a conversation peer to peer like this has been reported. the closest i can think of is about 20 years ago a judge here in manhattan in the federal district of new york had an expose published about him on "the new york times" because there were nearly 300 motions on his docket that were more than six months old. and "the times" did this reporting talking about the consequences to people who are litigants before him. in that reporting the then chief judge of the district who then went to become the attorney general said, look, inordinate delay is always a concern to any judicial district. theoretically the chief judge of the southern district of florida shares maybe that concern, but it doesn't seem like that's what caused her to call judge cannon because those conversations were held at the very outset of the case, not where we are now where we have seen her propensity to delay, delay, delay. >> walk us through tomorrow's hearing. what are you watching for? >> the very fact the hearing is happening on a legal issue litigated multiple times in different areas of the country including with respect to then-special counsel robert mueller is surprising. >> which is the question of whether or not jack smith was unlawfully appointed. >> correct, under two different arguments. one about appropriations to the department of justice, the other about the lawfulness of his appointment as an interior officer by the attorney general. she has essentially scheduled two days of hearings just on that argument and has also authorized three different nonparts or what are called friends of the court to make arguments. i don't know that i'm familiar with any other case let alone a criminal case of this importance where amiki are arguing in front of a district court judge an issue one that's been dealt with multiple courts before. >> i'm not going to ask about reassignments because i feel like you and i end up on that cul-de-sac over and over again. reporting manhattan d.a. alvin bragg has been balm boarded with death threats and harassments. >> they're hateful. they're racist, they're recent, and they were all sent to him through his campaign apparatus. theoretly the nypd is in possession of many more message of that kind sent to alvin bragg's office or to his home. these are just sent to his campaign website. the new york daily news really doing some blockbuster reporting tonight showing us how much hate has been directed at the manhattan d.a. just for doing his job, alicia. >> lisa rubin, msnbc correspondent, thank you, my friend for being with us. you've probably heard these sets of rules before thou shall gnat steal, thou shall not kill, thou shall not teach kids in classrooms that don't display the ten commandments. a louisiana law being called blatantly unconstitutional. governor jeff landry, on the other hand, calling it a respect for the rule of law. that's next. , calling it a respt for the rule of law. that's next. what is cirkul? 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...i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? they're going to have to take down the ten commandments in kentucky schools. two years ago a law was passed requiring they be posted in every classroom so long as printing costs were paid privately, but today the supreme court struck down the law without even hearing the argument. >> 1978 kentucky passed a law requiring the ten commandments to be displayed in public classroom. the state mandated that printing costs be paid privately, but it wasn't enough to stop the law from being overturned by the supreme court two years later. stone vs. graham held kentucky's law was uncontusional, it violated the separation of church and state. the ruling set a powerful precedent, one that several other states have since tried to break, states like mississippi, oklahoma, south carolina, utah, and texas have all tried to pass similar laws in recent years and none have been successful. cut this week when louisiana republican governor jeff landry took a shot. on wednesday landry signed a new law requiring all public classrooms to display the ten commandments. even before signing the bill the governor anticipated legal challenges and told a room filled with republican donors, quote, i can't wait to be sued. and his wish will soon come true. the aclu along with americans united for church and state and freedom from religion foundation announced they will sue louisiana over the, quote, blatantly unconstitutional new law. in a joint statement the organizations wrote hb 71 would require school officials to promote specific religious beliefs to which people of many faiths and those of no faith do not subscribe. the government shouldn't be forcing people to submit day in and day out to religious doctrine. at first glance it might seem like this is a slam dunk case for the aclu. if the case makes it all the way to the supreme court the pres dependent set by stone vs. graham should ostensibly mean the law is overturned. not so fast. this is a court that has recently made decisions that expand the place of religion in public life, suggesting thereat if this case ever makes it to the highest court there might be a majority willing to uphold louisiana's new law. just two years ago in a 6-3 vote the supreme court sided with a high school coach in washington ruling that the coach had a constitutional right to pray after at 50-yard line after games even some players felt pressured to join him. writing for the majority justice gorsuch claimed respect for religious expressions is indispensable to a free and diverse republic. just last year they ruled 6-3 in favor of an evangelical christian artist who didn't want design wedding venues for gay couples. it seems more likely than ever this court might uphold his ten commandments law. we'll talk more about that possibility next. we'll talk more about that possibility next this bill mandates this display of the ten commandments in every classroom in public, elementary, secondary, and post education schools in the state of louisiana. because if you want to respect the rule of law you've got to start from the original law given, which was moses. >> that was louisiana's republican governor, jeff landry, yesterday giving a shout out to moses after signing louisiana's ten commandments bill. you might have noticed a woman behind appears to faint, hope she's okay. no smaller than 11 by 14 inches in a large, easily readable font. joining me now executive director of the aclu of louisiana. also joining us msnbc columnist and chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania, two of the smartest women i know. thank you both so much for being here tonight. alanna, what's the impact of this law? >> hb 71 being signed into law means that children all over the state of louisiana in every single classroom whether it be their math classroom, their art classroom, bill be subjected essentially to codify christianity. our schools -- our public schools are going to be turned into sunday schools. and throughout the time that we have been studying this law, we know one thing, that the first amendment and its free exercise clause, which allows each and every united states citizen to choose their own faith or no faith at all and the importance of the establishment clause, which says that the government should not interfere, coerce, prosthalatize or choose or give one particular religion preference over another. those two clauses are still incredibly important in the united states constitution and for the first amendment. and so we believe in challenging this law we will ensure that freedom of religion and the first amendment are still rights that louisiana citizens hold. >> it would be really easy to look at this story and say, well, it's just happening in louisiana or that's just governor landry. no, you have been very clear this is part of a well-funded, well-constructed movement. pull back the curtain for us. who and what is behind that movement? >> many things, alicia. one of the things i think is important for people is to say, "a," this is an old play book. whether we're thinking about heritage foundation, family research counsel, all these family christian groups alongside other groups that have been working in school boards and other places to do this. what i think is really important for people to understand is two things. one is that we keep having the same repeat over and over again. we want prayer back in schools, we want the ten commandments in schools. we want to post up religious speakers in schools. and what gets me about the louisiana law is that there are over 1 million catholics. this is protestant version of the ten commandments that they want to put up, and this is the crazy part. there are three different versions, a catholic version, a christian version, and protestant version. to say the least about even putting them up in the first place, which i think is wrong. >> you know, the context we built this up, which is the idea this could be headed to the supreme court. we recently heard justice alito in the reporting agreeing the countries needs to be returned to, quote, a place of godliness. just last month we saw a report about the appeal to heaven flag flying at his vacation home. if you think about this as a pipeline to the supreme court, how much does that alarm you? >> it alarms me greatly because i believe that the supreme court might go ahead and say this is okay to do. obviously the 2005 ruling by the supreme court that said kentucky couldn't do that was a different supreme court than what we have now. and this is a thing that we have been talking about over and over again, this kind of christian nationalallism that will put other kind of morals on top of everybody else who don't even practice christianity. what about muslims, what about jews, what about atheists? what about everybody else who doesn't believe the ten commandments is part of their belief system? i think it's disingenuous for louisiana to do this in the guise of creating more morals when obviously the christians that are running things sometimes think about they don't even follow these rules themselves, and that's what i think is the hypocritical part of all this. >> not only do they not follow this themselves, they're lining up behind a person who doesn't follow this. the supreme court has a precedent called the lemon test, established 971, it's been used in many first amendment cases. explain what it is and whether it could be challenged. >> yeah, absolutely. so the court articulated a three-part test. the lemon test first says you have to look at the purpose or the intent of the piece of legislation. does it have a secular or non-secular purpose. and in the stone case the court did not have to go to the second and third prong because it was very clear that requiring a religious scriptural document like the ten commandments was clearly religious the intent, and therefore they did not have to go further. they struck it down based on that. part two is essentially an eeffects test. it's looking to determine whether or not the effect of the law will cause the government to prejudice one religion over another or to preference one religion over another. and then you're looking at entanglement. does the government have unnecessary entanglement into religion affairs? and we know the strong principles of the establishment clause really require the government remain neutral and not choose a particular stance. so the reason why we're in a bit of a tenuous position is that the court set aside the lemon test in 2022 in the kennedy case. but what we will say is that there is no federal court that has ever declared that holding the ten commandments and posting them in the classroom is constitutional. that has never been done, and also the 2022 kennedy case is distinguishable from these particular facts because the court -- that was a very narrow ruling in 2022 where the court said that children were not required to take part in the prayer, this was really something that the coach was doing on his own, and that kids were not a captive audience. here in louisiana where k-12 education is mandated by the state, our children are a captive audience. they're a particularly vulnerable group, and having this religion scripture in every classroom is indoctrination, and it does strike at the heart of our freedom to exercise religion and also the establishment clause. >> and especially when these are the same people going on and on about parental rights and worried about which books are on your kids bookshelf at school. meanwhile they want to foist their religious beliefs onto children and by extension their parents. so none of this is actually to them about freedom. it's not about godliness. they're the same people lining up behind donald trump. if it is not about any of that, then what is it actually about? >> it's about using morality as a way to get power. it is a way to dictate what people learn. obviously with all the book bans and everything going on, it's a way to instill -- instanchiate christianity as the rule of the land. that is not the case, obviously you heard about there will be no religious test of the president, but these are all religion tests, and at the same time asking for vouchers, asking for accommodations for private schools, that they will send their children to. so this is not simply about how you put religion and making morality as he says to make kids better, it's about them instanchuting their christianity, as, "a," the law of the land, and "b" whether or not the law should follow whether or not they follow it themselves. >> thank you both so much for being with us. still to come tonight, another decision day at the supreme court. it came and it went without decisions with some big blockbuster cases. what are the justices waiting for, and what should we be bracing for? slate's mark joseph stern joins me on that next. slate's mark joseph stern joins me on that next. looks like my . 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>> very low odds that we will know anytime soon. i think maybe there will be some reporting from behind the scenes in the coming years, but right now i think it's unlikely because that reporting would have to come, frankly, from the liberal justices. they'd have to invite people like me into the fold and say we're going to tell you some information on the record. perhaps justice samuel alito dragging his heels in order to run out the clock. and to be totally blunt with you, the liberal justices just aren't playing that game right now. they're trying a different approach. they're being as conciliatory as possible. the liberal justices are pretending to be friends with the conservatives. they're trying to pick-off one or two votes where they can. they're not seeking to burn any bridges, and so i am highly skeptical we'll get this behind the scenes info, because that will be seen by the kshs as burning them. >> that's not the only dynamic that is playing out among the justices. you had another piece in slate this week about a surprising divide, i would call it surprising between how clarence justice thomas is deciding cases and how conservative justice amy coney barrett is. what is the trouble in paradise there? >> they both consider themselves to be originalists, but amy coney barrett is a stickler for rules whereas clarence thomas very much acts like a king who makes these grand pronunciations and decrees and sort of assumes if it doesn't work out below like the court assumes he can fix it later. and justice barrett is showing real impatience for what i would call justice thomas' sloppy work, his sloppy use of history and reckless use of batterism trying to decide cases in a way that's difficult for courts to follow. one of the cases left on the docket is whether or not the government can disarm people who abuse their spouses, and that's going to pit thomas against barrett i think, because for barrett the answer seems obviously based on oral arguments he seems to say of course the government can take away their guns. but thomas is so obsessed with history and his misreading of history he might not be okay with disarming domestic abusers. that's creating a rift. it's a little wonky, a little nerdy but it could have major consequences dividing that conservative block and showing barrett to be more practical i wouldn't say moderate but the less extreme juls s when it comes to originalism. >> it's interesting. we're talking a lot about immunity because i think given the presidential election it seems as though it's in some ways a catch all for a lot of issues that people care about, but you mention the case is about guns. there's cases about abortion, about january 6th. i mean there is so much that hangs in the balance that you would not expect to be like a last day of school, hand in your papers situation. >> well, i think the justices are planning to flood the zone. they have taken up a bunch of cases they did not need to at this term because they've got items on their agenda that they want to check off as fast as possible. they could lose their super majority any time on the right, and so they are dawdling up these major disputes over the federal government's ability to bring enforcement actions against big polluters, for instance, that they're hoping the public won't really understand. it's complicated. you need to learn some administrative law to wrap your head around it. they are going to take that on, issue major decisions one on top of the other. the last couple days of the term it's going to be a huge news dump. and frankly, i think they are hoping the average american, the average voter even people including in the 2024 election aren't really going to have the time or bandwidth to process this and factor it into their vote in november. >> mark joseph stern covering the slate magazine, thank you for taking the time tonight. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" is up next. more national polling is swinging in president biden's favor as we move closer to next week's debate. we'll go through the preps for both candidates. also ahead new reporting on judge aileen cannon's refusal to recuse