summer. the period in which presidential candidates kick their campaigns into full gear. but the start of this election year summer well it is anything like we've ever seen before. in one week, president biden and donald trump will face off in a debate. to face voters to recon with the reality they're going to have to make sooner rather than later. today we got new details about how that debate is going to play out. independent candidate robert f. kennedy jr. officially failing to qualify for the debate leaving biden and trump to share the stage next week. biden will be standing at the podium on the right of the television screen. while trump will be the podium on the left. the same configurations as the two debates held four years ago. trump got to choose the order of the debate, he's going to go last giving him the last word. trump has opted for less prep sessions. and the president continues to hold rallies. allies of the candidates would be working to manage expectations. trying to paint their candidate as the under dog. but this as you know not a normal debate season. trump and his allies have tried tirelessly to convince voters that biden is older. and biden may appear more cogent than their viewers are made to believe. and that's why they're trying to convince voters that biden a tea totler is on drugs. >> should there be drug testing before these debates? >> i absolutely agree with that. there should. you can tell that joe biden comes this, he's jacked up. >> biden was jacked up. >> the chairman of the doctors caucus and the republican party said he was jacked up. >> i am assuming they will probably try to redo that. >> i was in the state of the union address and joe biden must have been jacked up on something that day. >> i think joe biden was lowered the bar. >> we to expect a similar jacked up performance at this debate. so be on the look out for wide eyes joe biden. >> reporter: fox news wants to believe that biden is senile but also that he has access to secret drugs that will turbo him during the rally. >> he's going to be so pumped up, he's going to be pumped up, you know all that stuff that was missing about a month ago from the white house. somebody didn't pick up hundreds of thousands of doctors worth of cocaine. i wonder who that could have been. i don't know. actually i think it was joe. >> reporter: like i said, this is not your normal start to an election season. looming over all of this is the fact for first time in history one of the two candidates on the debate stage will be a recently convicted felon who is awaiting sentencing. we started see signs that the reality of a second trump term is starting to breakthrough with voters. yesterday for the first time in months, a fox news poll found biden two points ahead of trump. key to that, a big 11 point swing toward biden among independents in the last month. trump's conviction last month on 34 felony counts marked the first major inflection point in the campaign. the question now is whether next week's debate will mark the second and which candidate will come out on top. joining me now, mcintosh, former seniors communication advisor for hillary clinton presidential campaign. and tim miller, an msnbc campaign reporter. what do you think about that republicans have had to change expectations on biden and the way they're doing that is there's a magic drug. >> whoever invented that would be rolling in so much money that they could not keep it secret. i love that that's the line they decided to go with. very strange play. this whole thing has been strange. i've been wondering about their inability to lower expectations. they got burned when president biden came out during the independence speech. that's probably why they're trying to make this mad dash scramble at the last minute. their team, with trump every declaration is an admission. whatever he says you're doing, he's doing. trump's mental acuity isn't great. >> any of those speeches for more than 30 seconds, yeah, doesn't make a lot of sense. >> he held a round table with ceos who were predisposed to support him who left less inclined to support him because he could not hold a thought. these are probusiness, ceos who should be in trump's corner who were too concerned about his inability to follow the conversation. to continue to support him. that's the candidate that they have to put up next week. it looks like a desperate play because it is. >> to under score that desperation, tim. not only donald trump, his allies talking about biden they're also lashing out on truth social today saying he quote looks forward to seeing president biden at the fake debate on thursday. it's also attacking the moderators, the fact that he feels the need to under mine a debate. not necessarily surprising but it's still a tell, tim. >> it's definitely a tell. i think it's a tell they realize they got over their skis on the dementia joe thing. now the expectations are way out of grasp and now they're grasp for anything to try to change their narrative around this. it's crazy just listening to all that alicia. i turn on fox to know what's going on over there. but just the amount of discussion about this fake conspiracy that they came up with. that a sober joe biden, all of a sudden decided at age 80 that he's going to start doing uppers. it's so wild, like the fake news that is happening over there to borrow a phrase. it would be like, if we, you know if i right now on this panel am like, i think donald trump might need a diaper on the debate stage next week. and then for two day, they talk about the diaper strategy. what do you think, does he need a diaper, does he not need a diaper. i think it shows they don't have a lot to work with. >> let's talk about the elements that actually are going to be part of the debate. this idea of which podium you choose, this idea of who goes first, and who goes last in closing arguments. we know trump was incensed that his attorneys did not get to make the closing argument. does any of it actually matter? >> the truth, almost everybody who is tuning into a presidential debate has already made their mind up. so let's just say that right there. what this is going to do is torpedo several of the arguments that are being used against president biden and i'm not seeing that happening the other way. trump is a showman. he's an entertainer. he's very good at that. so i'm sure at the end of all of his reality shows, he got to have the last word. i mean i was in college when that show was on. it would end with him in the boardroom and he would dispense some wisdom the producers had written for him and that's how the show ended. i'm sure he got very used to that formula. reality team is a formula. maybe that works for him but it's not the way people process information. it's not that important what tide side you're speaking from. >> thank you for reminding me the apprentice the last thyme trump had any discipline of any variety. mellon has given $15 million to trump. and the bloomberg company is giving 20 million to the biden camp. tell us what it means at this point in the race. if you think it means anything. >> yeah, well, i think it means a little bit. >> reporter: yeah, joe biden has had a lot of money throughout. mellon is going to help trump level the field. and trump has changed his tune on several issues because a couple of billionaires have given him money. recently the tiktok ban. and there was an element of desperation related to it. i think that's beginning to get shored up on the trump side of things. the one other thing that is relatable with the ads and the debate. building on what jess said. i don't nobody that there's anybody out there switching from trump to biden after the debate. i'm sure there'll be some. there's a group of democratic aligned voters that are not on board now. maybe they're worried about his age or inflation. the democratic senators are ahead of him. that's biden's next goal next week is to do well enough to demonstrate he's up for the job. to remind people that base that likes him. the swing vote is also important. when you think about the ads and debate that's the low growing fruit. that biden has a little room to grow in the polls. that he can bring those numbers back in his camp. >> new reporting in the new york times about some slide in support for president biden among women. i'm dropping from 13 points to 8 points since the 2020 election. that is part of the constituency that he's got to win back. >> i think tim is absolutely correct. i think that's the big, biden is talking to the democratic base. i think trump is also talking to his base, but trump has been very clear that he is not interested in adding new voters to the people who voted for him in 2020. >> he's telling people to keep their vote to themselves. >> biden doesn't have that strategy. biden needs everybody he got in 2020 and he wants more than that. especially with women there is a lot of contrast here. and if joe biden is interested in talking about the absolute. i see that writing itself. >> and just i will say, sort of the caveat here being one, they're talking about a lot of folks who aren't tuned in yet to your point that aren't following the movement of this election. and yes, in polling some of those women may say that inflation which i think has become kind of a catch all for economics more broadly. because i think you can talk about corporate greed when you talk about inflation. it polls higher than reprorights that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the issue that drives you out to the polls. >> absolutely. and the cost of living is something that you deal with multiple times a day. and it's a lot harder to see who the villain is there. it's price gouging, it's corporate greed. it's you know supply chain issues that are still being worked out postpandemic. it's a global thing. every country is talking about higher costs in living. when you talk about reproductive rights it's intimate, never forget experience. when you stop and think about what it means to have a politician take away your decision when and whether to have a child, what does that mean for couples who are going to need ivf to conceive. what does it mean for women who are starting their careers in their 20s. women make these kind of decisions all the time. it's not about the ability to access, every woman interacts with the idea of their reproductive freedom. to have politicians be in charge of that that's the kind of issue that really motivates you. that's the kind of issue that regardless of how busy your schedule is, that you vote on. it's hard to make one vote work for invasion. we lost roev. wade because of donald trump, and we will lose more if he's president again. and people will understand why it's important this is a debate to make. >> this choice, this binary choice needed to be before voters as soon as possible. we talked about it in the context of the debates. there's also eric levits pointing out. as of may the biden campaign was airing a million dollars worth of ads. while the trump campaign has yet to spend anything on ads. that's because the biden campaign knows they have to make their case, right. >> absolutely. and it's also because biden had the money and trump was paying his attorneys. whether it's women, whether it's working class black and hispanic women and men. so it's tv ads, you tube ads, tiktok, all of that they had to start doing a little earlier to reach those folks because that's how they're reaching them. they're not reaching them through traditional television. the governor of louisiana tries to tempt the supreme court to dismantle the separation between school and church. and overseeing trumps criminal prosecution over classified documents. that is up next. children are the greatest joy and our best hope for a better future. friends, they are the future. but did you know that millions of kids right here in our 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cases during her tenure. nothing remotely close to the complexity of the case against a former president. since taking the case, judge cannon's ruling have sparked even more questions among legal experts about the way she's overseeing it. now today, a block buster. the new york times reporting indicates that those legal experts are not alone. back when she was first appointed to the case, judge cannon's own colleagues including the chief judge in her district expressed concern about her taking the case. according to the times, just after cannon drew the assignment to more experienced colleagues on the federal bench in florida, urged her to pass it up and handle off to another jurist. judge cannon refused which leads us to where we are today. with a case that has stalled indefinitely favoring donald trump's defense strategy of delay, delay, delay. joining me now msnbc legal correspondent lisa ruben. thank you so much for being here. i always come to you with these trump legal stories and ask you to. >> i looked at the person from the maxel commercial in the 1980s sitting back in her chair like this. the fact this case exists is just as big as there were two federal judges that asked her to pass the case. the new york's time was reporting last year about all the consideration that led up to dobbs in the first place. the fact the justices had essentially voted amongst themselves to take the case but conceal had the from the public a very long time. the very fact that people want to give the public insight into the processes happening behind the scenes. and the fact that two more senior judges are calling judge cannon and asking her to step back from the case. that in and of itself is a huge deal. besides the context of the conversation. >> part of it was her inexperience but it was also her ruling that made it seem there could be an appearance of bias. >> part of what we're doing here is a little bit of a speculative dance. all we have is the new york time's wording to go by it and i don't want to parse it too closely. the first judge calls and says, hey we don't have a secure facility in fort pierce for you to review these documents. it would be constructed at great cost. would you consider handing this off to a miami judge because there is such a facility there. when judge cannon says no, then the chief judge of the district not nominated by a democratic president but by george w. bush calls her and makes it a little bit more plain. hey, you had a rough time of it there, when you handled the civil suit that was related to the mar-a-lago search. and essentially says you're too inexperienced to do that. maybe this would be better handled by a more experienced judge. but basically saying, your prior experience to this case raises questions about your either competence, your bias, or both. that conversation is happening between two colleagues. both of equal stature at least in terms of the law is staggering. >> help me understand that piece of it. just how usual or unusual is it for judges to have these types of conversations peer to peer. >> i can't recall another situation in which a conversation peer to peer like this has been reported. the closest analog i can think about is about 20 years ago a judge here in manhattan in the manhattan federal court the southern district of new york had an expose written on him because he had sat on so many motions in civil cases. there were nearly 300 motions that were miranda warning six -- that the decisions were six years old. then they said, an delay is always a concern to any district. judge cecilia ortenaga the judge of florida shares that concern. but it doesn't seem that that's what caused her to call judge cannon because those conversations were held at the outset of the case. not now that we've seen the propensity to delay, delay, delay. >> walk us through what is happening. >> the fact that there's hearings held, including with respect to then special counsel robert muller is itself surprising. >> whether it was whether jack smith was unlawfully appointed. >> under two different arguments. one about the lawfulness of his appointment as an inferior. she has scheduled two days of hearing on that argument. and three different nonparties or friends of the court to make arguments. i don't know that i'm familiar with any other case let alone a criminal case of this importance where arguing in front of the federal district court judge and issue one of constitutional importance and one that has been dealt with by multiple courts before. >> let me ask you about the new york daily news reporting alvin bragg has been bombarded with death threats and harassing messages since trump was found guilty. incredibly alarming. >> the substance of the threats themselves are alarming. their sexist, racist, recent. and they were all sent through the campaign apparatus. the nypd have those reports. and those have been sent to his campaign website. >> thank you my friend for being with us. >> thank you. you have probably heard sets of rules like these before. thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not teach children the 10 commandments in school. that's next. the cockroach. resilient creatures. true miracles of evolution. where there is one, others aren't far behind. always scavenging for food, the cockroach... well that's horrifying. ortho home defense max indoor insect barrier. one application kills and prevents bugs for 365 days. not in my house you don't. nature is wild. your home doesn't have to be. 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[music playing] this bill mandates the display of the 10 commandments in every classroom in public elementary, secondary and posteducation schools in the state of louisiana. because if you want to respect the rule of law you have to start from the original law giver. which was moses. >> that was the louisiana's republican governor jeff landry yesterday giving a shout out to moses after signing a 10 commandments. you may have noticed the young girl behind him seemed to have fainted, hope she's all right. in a large easily readable font. joining me now alana odom executive director of the aclu of louisiana. and also joining us chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania. two of the smartest women i know. thank you both so much for being here tonight. alana what's the impact of this law? >> hb71 being signed into law means that children all over the state of louisiana in every single classroom whether it be their math classroom, their art classroom will be subjected essentially to codified christianity. our schools are public schools are going to be turned into sunday schools. and throughout the time that we have been studying this law, we know one thing, that the first amendment and its free exercise clause which allows each and every united states citizen to choose their own faith or no faith at all, and the importance of the establishment cause which says the government should not interfere, coerce, or choose or give one particular religion preference over another. those two clauses are still incredibly important in the united states constitution and for the first amendment. and so, we believe in challenging this law. we will ensure that freedom of religion and the first amendment are still rights that louisiana citizens hold. >> and it would be really easy to look at this story and say, well it's just happening in louisiana or that's just governor landry, no, you have been very clear this is part of a well founded, well construction movement. pull back the curtain for us, who and what is behind that movement? >> many things, alicia. but one of the things that i think is very important for people to say this is an old play book. and there's been lots of organizations over the years who have done this. whether we're thinking about heritage foundation, heritage council. all these christian groups alongside other groups that have been working at school boards and other places to do this. what i think is really important for people to understand is two things. one is that we keep having the same repeat over and over again. we want prayer back in school. we want the 10 commandments back in school. what gets me about the louisiana law is there are over 1 million catholics, this is a protestant version of the ten commandments. there are three different versions. a jewish version, a catholic version and a protestant version. to say the at least about putting them up in the first place which i think is wrong. >> you take this context that we built this up is the idea that this could be headed to the supreme court. we recently heard justice alito in a recording agreeing that the country needs to be returned to a place of godliness. just last month we saw the flag flying at his vacation home. if you think about this as a pipeline to the supreme court how much does that alarm you? >> it alarms me greatly because i believe this supreme court might go ahead and say that this is okay to do. obviously, the 2005 ruling by the supreme court that said kentucky couldn't do that, was a different supreme court than what we have now. this is the thing that we have been talking about over and over again, this kind of christian nationalism that will put other kind of morals on top of everybody else who don't even practice christianity. what about muslims? what about jews, what about wh atheists. >> they're lining up behind a person who astonishly doesn't follow any of them. the supreme court they have a precedent known as the lemon test established 1971, supreme court case called lemon versus kerlind. explain what it is, whether it could be challenged. >> yeah, absolutely. in stone versus graham, the court articulated a three point test. does it have a secular or a nonsecular purpose. they didn't have to go a second or third prong because the ten commandments was clearly a religious intent and therefore they did not have to go further and they struck it down based on that. parts two and three of the test, the part two is essentially an effects test. it's looking to determine whether or not the effect of the law will cause the government to prejudice one religion over another or to prejudice one over the other. and we know the clause requires the government remain neutral and not choose a particular stance. so the reason why we're in a bit of a tenuous position is the court set aside the lemon test in 2022 in the kennedy case. but what we will say is there's no federal court that has ever declared that holding the ten commandments and posting them in the country is constitutional. that has never been done. also the 2022 kennedy case is distinguishable from these particular facts because the court, that was a very narrow ruling in 2022. where the court said that children were not required to take part in the prayer. this was really something the coach was doing on his own. and that kids were not a captive audience. here in louisiana, where k through 12 education is mandated by the state. our children are a captive audience. they're a particularly vulnerable group and having this religious scripture in every classroom is indoctrination and it does strike in our freedom of exercise religion and the establishment clause. >> these are the same people going on about parental rights and worried about which books are on your kids bookshelf. and meanwhile they want to voice their religious beliefs on to children and by extension their parents. so none of this is actually to them about freedom. it's not about godliness. it's the same people lining up behind donald trump. if it's not about any of that, what is it about? >> it's about using morality as a way to have power. it is a way to have power in the schools. it's a way to dictate what people learn with all the book bans and everything going on. it's a way to christianity as the religion of the land. these are all religious tests. it's a way they're using the public school system to do that. at the same time asking vouchers for schools that they will send their children to. it's not about using morality to make children better. it's about placing christianity as a the law of the land and it's the religion others will follow whether or not they follow them themselves. >> thank you. and another day of big decisions. what are the justices waiting for and what should we be bracing for. joseph stern joins me on that, next. ♪♪ chewy, a citi client, uses citi's financial expertise to help drive its growth and keep its supply chain moving, so more pet parents can get everything they need... right when they need it. keeping more pets, and families, happy. ♪♪ for the love of moving our clients forward. for the love of progress. if you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. new parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. - [narrator] life with ear ringing sounded like a constant train whistle i couldn't escape. then i started taking lipo flavonoid. with 60 years of clinical experience, it's the number one doctor recommended brand for ear ringing. and now i'm finally free. take back control with lipo flavonoid. it has been 192 days since jack smith asked the supreme court to decide trump's question of presidential immunity. the question has effectively paused smith's federal election interference case. been 56 days since she heard it. we still do not have a decision. that decision is actually just one of a whopping 19 decisions we are still waiting on from the supreme court. as mark joseph stern put it earlier this month in slate, supreme court's june opinion dump will be devastating and unprecedented. mark, thank you so much for being with us tonight. when you walk through the dates as i just did, it becomes additionally jarring that we do not have a decision here. >> it is an extraordinary indictment of the supreme court itself. that we are sitting here at the end of june. and there is no sign that the justices will hand down a decision in the trump immunity case. before the very last opinion day which could be june 28th or july 1st. they rushed out allowing trump to remain on the ballot in colorado in record time when his rights were implicated. they easily got this decision out in favor of him. but now, in this incredibly important test of accountability for an allegedly criminal former president, they are twiddling their thumbs. even if the supreme court grants a clean win to special council jack smith at this point, it will still be very much a loss for smith and the country because by inserting this extraordinary delay, the justices have pretty much guaranteed that trump will not face trial for january 6th before november. >> let me ask do you think we ever get an answer on why it took this long? >> very low odds that we will know any time soon. i think maybe there will be some reporting from behind the scenes. they would have to invite people like me into the hold and tell you information on the record. justice samuel alito dragging his heels to run out the clock. and to be totally blunt with you, the liberal justices are not playing that game. they are being as conciliatory as possible. the liberal justices are pretending to be friends with the conservatives trying to pick off one or two votes where they can. they are not seeking to burn any bridges so i'm skeptical we will get this behind the scenes info because that would be seen as burning the conservatives and the liberals want to play nice to get as many vote as they can. >> that is not the only dynamic playing out. how conservative justice amy coney barrett. what is the trouble in paradise there? >> they both consider themselves to be originalists but amy coney barrett is a sicklier for rules. she wants rules that can be workable. where clarence thomas acts like a king who makes these grand pronunciations and decrees and says he can step in and fix it later. and justice barrett is showing some real impatience for what i would call justice thomas' sloppy work. his sloppy use of history. his reckless use of originalism or bad originalism to try to decide cases in a way that is very difficult for lower courts to follow. one of the block busters left on the docket is whether domestic abusers have the right to bear arms. whether or not the government can disarm people who abuse their spouses and that's going to pit thomas against barrett i think because for barrett, the answer seems obvious based on all arguments she said of course the government can take away their guns but thomas was so obsessed with history, he may not be okay with disarming domestic abusers. it is creating a rift. it could have really major practical consequences dividing that conservative block. and showing barrett to be the more practical. i wouldn't even say moderate. but less extreme justice when it comes to originalism. >> it is interesting. we are talking a lot about immunity because i think given the presidential election, it seems as though it is in some ways a catch all. you mentioned the case that is about guns. cases about abortion. about january 6th. there is so much that hangs in the balance. you would not expect to be like a last day of school hand in your papers situation. >> i think the justices are planning to flood the zone. they have taken up a bunch of cases they haven't needed to. they have items they want to check off as fast as possible. they are goggling up these major disputes over the federal government's ability to bring enforcement actions against big polluters they are hoping the public won't understand. you need to learn some administrative law to wrap your head around it. they will take that on. they will issue major decisions one on top of the other, the last couple of days of the term, it will be a huge news dump. and frankly i think they are hoping that the average american. the average voter even people clued into the 2024 election are not going to have the time or the band with to process this and factor it into the vote in november. >> mark joseph stern, covering the courts for slate magazine. thank you so much for taking the time tonight. that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening. we have dr. anthony fauci joining us tonight. he will never be thanked enough for the lives he has saved including our own for all we know. with the covid vaccine, but i will try. i will spend some time trying to thank him enough. >> trying to thank him, thank him on behalf of all of us lawrence. >> we will. thanks. thank you. well, there will be a

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