with seven presidents, plus fauci's view on america's voice this november. he had an up close and behind the scenes view of presidential leadership under crisis last time around. he is our special guest. i inn video viet you and urge you to stay with us tonight. also trump lawyer boris epshteyn facing a judge. we will cover that new arizona arraignment for them which occurred today later this hour. so that is all coming up. i think it will be interesting to hear from dr. fauci. we spoke with him so many times during the height of the pandemic, i can remember the intensity of that and trying to keep track of things and trying to be constructive as information and news channel. he is here under different circumstances and in some sense less intense. so that should be interesting. our top story is the clash that many americans may not realize is coming, and for good reason. let's be clear, summer has begun, i hope you get views like that sooner or later. people are playing in the water, kids are out of school in most places, people are just living their lives, and few people are following the obscure revisions to the presidential debate calendar. so either you're probably not thinking about the fall election like those folks on the beach chairs, or if you are a political junky then you might remember how the fall elections debates are held in the fall. makes sense. and they've always been held in the fall. there's never been a general election debate in early summer, and yet things can change and that changes next week because these candidates will face off early, all because the biden folks routed around the traditional commission that's been operating this and setting that later calendar i mentioned for every decade they have been doing this. the biden folks have now launched their own debate calendar and trump agreed. so these two candidates face off next week, making this right now a more intense campaign stretch than the typical june. trump's campaign in wisconsin, biden trying to thread the needle on immigration, marking the anniversary of the pro biden obama policy which shields children from deportation. it's something that then president obama said was a step forward even amidst also of tough work of policing the border. >> we have always drawn strength from being a nation of immigrants, as well as a nation of laws, and that's going to continue, and my hope is that congress recognizes that and get -- gets behind this effort. >> biden channeling that, trying to mix that obama message with, separately, stronger border enforcement. today he says he's fortifying the policy by protecting undocumented spouses of americans and a pathway to citizenship. democrats are preferring this message today to what you may have also heard which is those restrictions on asylum and humanitarian protections which was basically biden getting tough at the border, but biden folks on the campaign and at the white house they think he can do both, and today he was touting this measure. >> folks, i'm not interested in playing politics at the border or on immigration. i'm interested in mixing it. i said it before and i will say it again today, i will work with anyone to solve these problems. that's my responsibility as president. >> we are joined right now by jake who worked with president obama's campaign and other presidential campaigns. >> good to be back. >> i don't know if you saw the beach chairs on your feed waiting to come on, but we were showing that people are out living and you would be forgiven, if you were to take a month off following this campaign any other year june would be the month, and yet with the debate next week it is heating up. what do you see biden doing first there on immigration where all of the indications -- first of all, tough issue, but all of the indications show it's not a lay up, there are a lot of doubts and questions about immigration in the united states, how biden is handling it, and let's be clear, it's not just on the far right. >> yeah, i mean, i think what biden is doing is he's frankly following james carville's advice, he was on "the beat" yesterday, you've said that he talks occasionally to the white house. immigration is america but do not defend disorder. uniting families is orderly. keeping families apart is disorder. that is what biden is doing, he's saying we can have an orderly immigration process that is fair, that is humane, that is keeping with our best traditions, that keeps families together, but we also can fight against disorder. >> so let me ask you about timing. you know nixon went to china. >> right. >> as did "forrest gump," people forget that. >> yes, he did. he may be a fictional character, but the whole china thing in that era was that you had to go right before you could go left. that was the thinking. >> right. >> and to make a simple comparison that seems to be what the biden folks have done here, they caught some flak and i showed the headline a couple weeks ago, going against asylum and what are basically humanitarian programs, which the left is generally supportive of. they did that first, going right, now today they're doing daca, they're doing what your old boss did, which is what you are describing as orderly but also more of a humanitarian program. do you think that was deliberate? what does that tell you about the biden strategy? >> well, i mean, they're very adroit, they're aware of weaknesses or problems that they have coming up, but i would argue and push back that what biden has done today and what he's been doing is keeping with democratic tradition. democratic tradition is pro-immigration. we are the party of the statue of liberty, but we are also the party that believes as president obama did, as president clinton did, as president biden believes that there is a better way of doing this, there is an orderly way of doing this, and that that is what we need to do first and foremost, make sure that we have an orderly process in which we have families united, we have more workers in this country, we reinvigorate our nation's fabric with immigration. >> on the debates which i mentioned biden's team has been telegraphing, look, he has a busy day job, he is not doing a ton of prep. trump is striking a similar note, they say no debate prep, everyone is always trying to work the expectations game. trump has always gone his own way at the debates, it seemed to work in 2016, but in 2020 as that pandemic ravaged the nation trump's performance, his style of musings didn't play well. >> nobody has done it. so we're cutting health care. you look at what's going on with divorce, look at what's going on with alcoholism and drugs, it's a very, very sad thing. i'm totally underleveraged because the assets are extremely good and we have a very -- i built a great company. >> new york, it's a ghost town. it's a ghost town. and when you talk about plexiglas -- >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> yeah, that was a spectacularly terrible debate performance and it's keeping with a tradition with the debates that the incumbent president always loses the first debate, however, going into this debate we basically have two incumbent presidents, donald trump is the first nominee of a major party to win the nomination without debating since the 1970s. it has been that long since somebody has gotten the party's nomination without doing a debate who is not an incumbent president. he has been treated like an incumbent president for the last several years. he has never been on the stage with anyone who is his equal, everyone bows down to him and this debate is really dangerous for him which is why you're hearing people like sean hannity say, hey, maybe he shouldn't do this debate because he is setting himself up for a fall with this. >> carville was urk that as well, whether he will do that or not. we're seeing the age issue flare back up, i wanted to show you how some of the hypocrisy is being lampooned on late night. >> this weekend trump appeared at the herbal life of political conventions, turning point, usa. trump articulated his case for having best brainful neurons smart. >> the big money guy said things like meandering and he doesn't know what he's talking about and i was surprised. you were surprised? >> the election has basically boiled down to each candidate accusing the other of having soup where there should be brain. >> if there is an age issue factually it applies to both of these candidates who are historically older, above the retirement age. >> you're right. >> but as you know the maga folks, the right wing and some of the sort of media ecosystem, "wall street journal" owned by murdoch have tried to say if it's an age issue it's only one side and they push that. we're seeing that push back to that pushing. do you think this all ends up being a wash? do you think the biden campaign has to continue having a strategy here? if you can disqualify someone by claiming factually or not that they are incompetent you are short-circuiting the rest of the debate. who is going to talk about immigration if you convince people in the states that matter that somebody whichever side isn't up to the job? >> yeah, i mean, i think the biden campaign's best strategy is to get biden out there. to have him be seen, to have him be in i would say nontraditional venues like late night talk shows, "snl," popular podcasts, daytime tv, just put him out there as much as possible so people see him and see how he speaks and see how competent he is. then you have a debate contrast with donald trump who is going to be rambling, who is going to be saying a lot of crazy things because that's all he's been doing for the last couple of years. when people see that contrast, that will -- that will work to biden's advantage. and that's why i would say if this debate goes well and i expect it to go well for biden because biden if you notice has overperformed expectations, state of the union, every single time he has had his back against the wall he has overperformed expectations, i expect him to do that this time. if this goes well he does do more debates. i think having as many debates as possible and having people see and hear donald trump and see and hear him works to biden's advantage. >> really interesting. we covered some good ground with you. speaking of whether experience ties into how well you can do a job i'm going to keep it moving because i have a big guest tonight who is not 30,'s he not 40. >> no. >> but he was relied on by a lot of presidents in both parties over the years as we say. you might know who i'm talking about, do you know who i'm talking about. >> yeah, dr. anthony fauci. >> dr. anthony fauci. >> a case where age brings wisdom and dr. anthony fauci has wisdom. he has to talk about how his years of experience has helped him and has translated into governing. >> interesting. jake, we knew you were a "beat" guest because we have had you on here, but with your references tonight you showed you are also a "beat" viewer. coming up, prosecutors going after the trump aide who admitted to the elector fraud plot on this program. we will follow the facts where they go and have an update on boris epshteyn. steve bannon not exactly going to club fed. first, as i just discussed our guest next live, dr. anthony fauci. live, dr. anthony fauci. brilliant? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring so you can be happily fulfilled... which is pretty un-boring if you think about it. if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd like to be. farxiga 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the covid pandemic upended everything, right when it arrived in 2020. it caused over a million americans' deaths, over 7 million worldwide, and it's so savage and exhausted everyone it's almost odd how rarely we face it in detail nowadays. i mean, in our culture, our conversations and in policy planning, a lot of people just say, we lived it, what do you want me to do? what more do you want me to say? the pandemic also put doctors and science at center stage for a time in our society and showed our challenges at dealing with science and facts amidst fear and division. many, as you probably remember, saw scientific leaders and dr. fauci at the helm as our save years in crisis, others saw them as villains of this sprawling conspiracy. >> dr. anthony fauci, he is the country's topest expert in infectious diseases. >> tony, your reputation is second to done. >> fauci's public comments and advice dating back several months to undermain his credibility. >> in that same call the doctor attached dr. anthony fauci, called him a dis aster. >> i have to say you are a spry 83 years old, have you thought about running for president? >> no. >> those are just some of the diverging views of dr. anthony fauci, director of the national institute of allergy and infectious disease from 84 to 2022 working across seven different president sees, every single one since ronald reagan. he helped lead the country's response to aids, sars and ebola and the pandemic. he has a new book "on call: a doctor's journey in public service." welcome. >> thank you very much, ari. >> good to see you in-person. >> same here. we did that remote thing because of the pandemic. >> many times. >> everyone has heard so much from you in the government and leadership context. why did you want to now reflect on all of that in the book? >> well, i've reached a certain stage when just reflecting back that i had a very unique opportunity, a special -- i think a privilege to have been in public service for more than half a century and to be the director of the infectious disease institute for almost 40 years and i thought i wanted to share that experience while i still have energy and passion about things because i thought it's an important story from the perspective of someone who lived through it as opposed to a historian who comes in from the outside. that was one reason to do the book. the other reason is i felt that it would serve hopefully as a source of inspiration for people who are either in public service and in public health, or younger people who might be considering a career about how gratifying it could be despite all the challenges which i describe in some detail in the book. >> yeah. and you also were up close in what we can all call an unusual and less consistent approach from president trump. >> correct. >> we have the trump tapes now where bob woodward was also talking to him. did you know at the time he was doing these side calls with bob? >> i did not know that, only after bob's book came out. >> so you have these recordings that are contemporaneous, we all saw the briefings and the public stuff, but in private he's saying to bob about it's flaring up everywhere but we're going to control it immediately. >> right. >> take a listen to this at the time private discussion. >> it's flaring up all over the world, bob. by the way, all over the world. that was one thing i noticed last week. you know, they talk about this country. all over the world it's flaring up. but we have it under control. >> bob, who is seen as a very fair reporter and like you has dealt with many presidents, interestingly went farther than he has about most other presidents. he said, this idea that they had it under control was not under control, it was intentionally never under control. it was a crisis and the president was not acting. now that you're out of government, is that a fair criticism and assessment? is it too harsh? >> well, no, i think it's fair because, as i said in the book, when i was talking about my interaction with him, i felt very uncomfortable when he was saying it was going to disappear like magic, it's just going to go away, because he so desperately wanted it to disappear the way flu disappears as you enter the end of the winter and the beginning of the spring, and that's when i had to publicly get up, which was very uncomfortable for me, i did not -- i was not happy about criticizing the president or disagreeing with the president, i said, no, it's not going to disappear like magic at all and when that became clear that's when we started talking about hydroxychloroquine which also has something that had no basis in science. >> so in the book you write there was this example, that one, of the president's tendency to, quote, try to wish away covid with solutions that had no basis. and then you talk about your complicated relationship with then president trump, that he was irate, he'd say you can't keep doing this to him, like it was personal, then he'd say, quote, he loved me, but the country was in trouble. i was making it worse. he added the stock market wept up only 600 points in response to the positive phase one vaccine and should have gone up 1,000 points so i cost the country 1 trillion effing dollars. was that different than any other president you have dealt with -- sorry, i have to ask -- and does it strike you as the wrong priority set when people were still dying? >> of course and it was like a whiplash where in so many respects he didn't want to be angry with me because we had up until that point a pretty good relationship. that's when he would start saying things, you know, i care about you, i like you, i love you, but then he would start screaming at me. it's not fun being yelled at by the president of the united states. that was a bit unnerving. but i had to continue to tell the truth. and he said why do you keep doing this to me? because it's the truth. i'm telling the american public the facts. 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