president biden was in normandy today commemorating the 80th anniversary of d-day. while he was there he was asked about something totally unrelated. whether he would issue a pardon for his son hunter if he is convicted of felony gun vices. here is how he responded. >> as we sit here in normandy, your son hunter is on trial. let me ask you, will you accept the jury's outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is? >> yes. >> and have you ruled out a pardon for your son? >> yes. >> pretty clear answer there. but again, this is a yes or no question. and to be honest, it shouldn't be that hard to answer. joe biden as president with the power to pardon anyone he wants at the federal level will let his son go to prison if he is found guilty by a jury of his peers because that is how the american justice system is supposed to work. now compare that answer to former president donald trump's answer. on trump's last day in office, january 20th, 2021, he issued more than 70 pardons and there were several scandalous names in there. the guy who had been charged with cyber stalking. there was the ex-husband. to janine peurou. most noticeable of all was campaign manager and chief white house strategist steve bannon. bannon had been charged if year before for allegedly duping millions of trump supporter out of cash claiming he was getting money to build the wall. to be clear, they did not. but as president, trump made bannon's federal charges just disappear. typically, when a president pardons someone, it is because the president disagrees with the law that person broke or because the president thinks that person is innocent. that did not appear to be the case here. three of bannon's coconspirators were not pardoned. they went to trial. they were found guilty. one is serving three years in prison. one is serving four years in prison and one is serving five years in prison as we speak. so donald trump does not appear to have pardoned steve bannon because he thought steve bannon was innocent. he appears to have pardoned him because he is his guy. to be clear, bannon still faces new york state level charges but at the federal level, trump got him off the hook. i'm not just bringing up steve bannon because it shows the stark contrast between biden and trump's thoughts of the rule of law. bannon was ordered to go to prison for something else entirely. today, a judge in dc ordered bannon to report to prison by july 1st for a totally different charge. donald trump immediately took to truth social to call this order a total and complete american tragedy. maybe in the eyes of donald trump. but steve bannon committed an actual crime. in september of 2021, the january 6th committee subpoenaed him and they had reason to. here he was on his podcast the day before the insurrection, january 5th, 2021. >> tomorrow morning, look. what is going to happen, we're going to have at the ellipse. president trump speaks at 11:00. we'll be live at 10:00 o'clock. we have more news of what will happen. i'll tell you this. it's not going to happen like you think it's going to happen. it's going to be quite extraordinarily different. all i can say is strap in. the war room posse, you have made this happen. and tomorrow, it is game day. >> strap in, tomorrow, it's game day. that was steve bannon. when the house january 6th committee subpoenaed him, he refused to cooperate. he was charged and put on trial and convicted by a jury of his peers. now steve bannon may believe himself a martyr here but he is really just a criminal. >> the entire justice department, they are not going to shut up trump. they are not going to shut up navarro or bannon and they are certainly not going to shut up maga. all this is about one thing. this is about shutting down the maga movement. shutting down grass roots conservatives and president trump. it is not a prison built or jail built that will ever shut me up. >> the reference to trump aide peter navarro there is because mr. navarro is actually already serving a four month sentence right now because he also refused to comply with the congressional subpoena asking what he knew. he is in good company. wow, donald trump is just rounded by convicted and accused criminals. steve bannon, roger stone, mark meadows, rudy giuliani. sydney powell. jenna ellis. how long do we have here? the list goes on and on. the republican party today is a party led by a convicted criminal who is surrounded by a sea of convicted and accused criminals. wrap your head around that for a second. and then after you do that, recall what the republican party is saying about itself. >> look, we're the rule of law team. we believe in the rule of law. >> joining me now, dan goldman and george conway. a contributor to the atlantic magazine. gentlemen, it's great to see you. i need to first start with you, dan. in terms of what democrats do here. when you read the list of convicted and accused criminals that surround the front runner for the nomination. what is the appropriate way for democrats to talk about this? >> call it out like it is. the fact of the matter is donald trump had a trial. that is like every other defendant in this country. where a jury of 12 impartial jurors swore an oath to consider just the facts of the evidence and apply it to the law and they unanimously decided beyond a reasonable doubt donald trump had every constitutional right that anyone else gets. this the rule of law. if house republicans start attacking this prosecution because they don't like the outcome, that is the opposite of supporting the rule of law. the reality is americans on november 5th are going to have a very simple choice. do you want in the oval office a convicted felon or not? and that is where we are. >> here is a person who doesn't have respect for the rule of law. here is a person who is populating the upper echelons of his campaign and his inner circle with people who are criminals. or accused criminals. >> right. >> as you said in the intro, he is a criminal. swimming among a sea of criminals who follow along and the republican party has become the party of criminals because their position is we support the criminals. we support these people. they are persecuted by the people who seek to enforce the law against them. they say they are basically saying that if we do it, if our people do it, they are immune from the law. but the law to apply to everyone else. that is what we are seeing is we are seeing this cultish control of a political party. let's be honest here. the reason he is running for president is he wants to make the world a better place. it is not because he wants peace on earth. he wants to stay out of prison. this is the only way he can do it. >> it is audacious, again, maybe one step beyond that. because mike johnson is not only just defending donald trump, saying the republican party is the rule of law. that's it. mike johnson suggests there has been a lot of reported debate about how far joe biden should go. and the recollect campaign on this topic and i wonder if you have a thought on this. because there are fairly wise and established democratic strategists who say if he focuses too much on the criminality of this, he will alienate voters right there in the middle. >> the convicted felon is one piece of a larger effort to completely undermine and overtake our democracy. so it is not just that he is a convicted felon. he is a convicted felon who has already threatened every global alliance who will implement a national abortion ban who will eliminate our secret service. pardon his buddies and roger stone who by the way had information that potentially criminal information against him. the fact a jury of jail found him guilty, he is part and parcel of the entire ethos of donald trump which is that the law doesn't belong to me. i will take down our democracy in order to save myself. >> there is an eco system that surrounds this criminality. but, that hasn't cut through. in the same way. that i potentially the felony conviction does. and i'm going to quote sarah who has been doing focus groups. small focus groups indicative of where the voter who's will swing this election are on this. the double haters, are not only united, they are trusting the judicial system over trump. they are marginal. but the margins will decide this race. trump is unfit for office. >> i think it is completely, extremely meaningful. this election should be a no brainer to begin with. the fact of the matter is you have understated it. you can't,. we haven't talked about the fact his company was convicted of crimes. we need to talk about the fact he stole classified documents and should have gone to jail for that already. >> it is like how much time is there? >> how much time is there? and there are the things we probably don't know about. and i think that can be all tied together with. to me, i have been on this kick for several years. the man is a narcissistic socio path. if you look at the definitions of a pathological narcissist or psychopath is, this is who he is. he is the poster child of that. and that ties into the authoritarianism. the criminality. the misogyny. the desire to do the bidding of vladimir putin. because they are one of a kind. it ties into everything. and explains everything that donald trump is. a morally bereft debraved human being who should not be any position of power. >> part of the problem is and i talk to people all the time, who say i like his policies oen this or that. you know, george and i have very different policy views. but it is irrelevant if our democracy will not exist. so i say this all the time. i disagreed with many of george w. bush's policies but i always knew and believed that he cared first and foremost about this country. we just had a different view of how we are going to get there. i long for those days where we can have those real policy discussions. we cannot have them with donald trump because the threat to our way of life and everything that we know in this country is too grave. >> on june 6th of all days. okay? you see those moving moments. omaha beach. you know. we all, we are brought to tears as americans. donald trump thinks those people who died on those beaches on those cliffs and buried in the cemeteries, he thinks they are suckers and losers. >> i have to say, i'm reminded of what president biden was asked about. the republicans are saying the system is rigged against them at the precise moment the president of the united states is sitting in an interview saying he will not interfere with the potential conviction of his own son. these republicans truly underestimate the american public. that they will believe that the system is somehow rigged as it prosecutes the president's own son. it is playing the american public for suckers, congressman. >> absolutely. and the problem is there is such an ecos fear. very few of them are probably watching us right now. >> well, hopefully more and more as the hour progresses. >> that is part of the problem. and how we breakthrough. that is why those double haters are so important. they are paying attention to both sides of things. and, when you hear on d-day the former president talking about going after and prosecuting his enemies and you see the current president making a stirring beach about the importance of service. the importance of our freedom and democracy and all of those people who have died for our country and our country's way of life, that is what this election is about. >> totally. it is the starkest contrast imaginable. thank you both for your time guys. >> thank you. coming up, republicans try to court black voters by conjuring the specter of jim crow. first, american presidents can't pardon state convictions. especially their own state convictions. but donald trump has a plan for that. more on the legalese behind that coming up after the break. if you're living with hiv, imagine being good to go without daily 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himself from any charges regardless of whether he wins the election or not. he is doing it with the help of his own party in congress. where the speaker of the house is now considering a bill to give current and former american presidents the option of moving state or local prosecutions into the federal courts instead. joining me now is duncan levan. duncan, you are my legal sensei. help me understand. donald trump believes he gets at least a better deal in federal courts than state courts right? can you talk about the strategy there? >> so much for states' rights. this is by their thinking, the president or the former president is above the law in all 50 sovereign states in the united states of america. and you could think of all of these crimes that are not federal crimes that don't bear in a federal question or cross state lines or have anything to do with interstate commerce. just a purely state crime. i'm thinking for example, shooting someone in the middle of fifth avenue. a local murder case. the local da's office would not be able to prosecute it anymore. it would have to be removed to federal court for a federal prosecutor as opposed to prosecute where there is no statute available. you could see where this is going. it is complete bedlam. not only is this unlikely to pass the democratic senate but it is unconstitutional. >> that was my question. >> the current state of the law is that a state prosecution, a criminal prosecution can be removed to federal court if the conduct underlying it relates somehow, comes under federal office. mark meadows tried to move the election interference case to the federal court saying this came from his time as chief of staff in the white house and that got rejected by the federal court and sent back down to the georgia state courts. that is where this arises so i think this really falls more into the category of performative politics than anyone writing this has any knowledge of criminal law. >> when we talk about what levels there are to pull. certain activities around what he did in office and there after. i do wonder whether that immunity question could affect any of the state level prosecutions as well. >> the real answer is nobody knows. nobody knows what the supreme court is going to do. mr. trump is asking for something very broad. he is asking for immunity from criminal prosecution. not only around the activities carried out as part of the core part of his presidency. it is further removed from it. the answer is that it is unlikely to affect the two state cases. because of the facts here, remember, when mr. trump got indicted he brought the case to federal court and went in front of judge hellerstein among other claims he made. he made this claim about presidential immunity. and the judge said that mr. trump had not presented any evidence at all that hiring and paying your own personal attorney relates to your core constitutional duties. paying hush money to a porn star relating to your core constitutional duty. >> up for debate in a donald trump presidency. >> it was shocking, or covering up a conspiracy to promote your election by unlawful means is part of your core constitutional duties. the biggest insult is to say they didn't come up with a colorable argument. didn't even try. the georgia case has more to do with his duties because it relate to an election, but even that, you are talking about whether it relates to even remotely relates to his constitutional duties calling an elected official asking them falsify election results or pretend they are electors. so i don't think any of this relates to the outer, outer, outer perimeters of what he is arguing here. so it is unlikely to carry any water but with some of these judges, and the supreme court these days where they are flying flags upside down, you don't know what they will rule and how they will take it up. >> and when they are. i wonder what you imagine the prosecution in the new york case is going to ask for in terms of sentencing for trump's 34 felony convictions. >> jail time. period. they will ask for jail time. with good reason. and it is not politics. it is because is case calls out for jail time. i think it is because and you could argue look, this is somebody who has lived a law- abiding life for a long time. it is low level e felony. his first criminal conviction. it is non-violent. but, you could also argue on the other side and this is the way the prosecution will see it and likely the judge. that to the extent the legislature envisioned an e felony being punishable by up to four years in jail, this is the case that screams out for it. this is the case where the falsifying of business records relating to subverting the election to the presidency. michael cohen went to prison three years for the same conspiracy. and you can say they are different sovereigns. it was federal versus state. and michael cohen was not a leader of that conspiracy. trump was the leader of the conspiracy. mic