times over the years, and every time he joined us, he helped us achieve our main goal, to get better and smarter. that was easy for him. ben white was the very best. i will forever be grateful for the knowledge he shared with us, bought more than anything, for his friendship. this is a hard and competitive business and having a friend in this business like ben was a gift and i will treasure our friendship forever. our condolences go out to his entire family and all those who are grateful to know and love him. thank you, ben. i will miss you and on that note, i wish you all a very safe and good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks at nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. the republican party's presidential front runner was convicted by a jury of his peers on 34 felony counts. that is the reality. the republican party must now grapple with it. if they were into reality. so, that's an issue. what makes this all even more difficult for the gop is that trumps conviction has exactly 0 to do with president biden. trump was convicted in a state case brought by a new york city prosecutor who does not report to president biden. he is facing another 10 criminal charges from another local prosecutor in georgia who does not report to president biden. even the two federal cases against trump were brought by an independent special counsel who neither takes orders from nor coordinates with president biden. so, donald trump has reacted the way he traditionally does when reality does not fit his preferred narrative. he lies about it. he claims without evidence that president biden is the one who is really pulling the strings. >> these are all biotin trials. >> these are all biden cases. this is using the justice department to go after your political opponent. his weaponizing law enforcement for election interference. >> trump has repeated some version of that lie over and over again for the past two years but now he is his party's presumptive nominee so every elected republican in congress must now attach himself or herself to that line no matter what reality dictates and today we saw exactly what that looks like when attorney general merrick garland testified before the republican-led house judiciary committee at a hearing ostensibly about oversight of the justice department. >> for the first time in american history we do have a presidential administration that is working to put its opponent in jail. >> you are intentionally allowing the department and the agents therein to engage in political prosecution. >> the law we have seen against former president trump will do great damage beyond our time in public assist service. >> at one point in history republicans used to just excuse trumps lies or pretend they didn't hear him. no longer. they have taken a knife to any tether that still binds them to reality and are now just floating away into the fact- free universe of donald trump like balloons or seagulls in a stiff wind. and, it is not just a hard-line wing of the party anymore. this was a so-called moderate from the state of new jersey trying to take a shot at state prosecutors fani willis and alvin bragg. >> he ran for office saying he was going to put donald trump in jail. alvin bragg and again the prosecutor in fulton county, georgia. they ran on that and that is wrong. >> the congressman directed those comments to attorney general merrick garland but again, merrick garland has no connections to the prosecutors in georgia and manhattan, fani willis and alvin bragg and whatever reservations about elected prosecutors attempting to criminally investigate members of the party, he was making that argument while defending this guy. >> she should be locked up i tell you right now. she should be locked up. she should. lock them up you should lock them up. lock up the bidens. lock up hillary. >> donald trump more than any other politician is literally famous for wanting to jail his political opponents, but over the weekend trump tried to write that moment out of history. >> hillary clinton i didn't say lockup. we won and i said pretty openly i said all right, and just relax. >> i didn't say lock her up. i know it was a long 27 seconds ago but here it is again. >> she should be locked up, tell you right now. she should be locked up. she should. >> i should also note here that trumps claim that he gave up trying to prosecute hillary clinton after he won the election is also very much a lie. we know from special counsel robert miller's report that trump was fixated on the idea of prosecuting clinton. oh, but that whole thing, that whole thing has been wiped from republican memory. here is what congressman jason smith told conservative media today while merrick garland was still testifying. >> attorney general garland is not acting like the attorney general of the united states. he's acting like joe biden's personal attorney. well, that's not how it is. >> okay, so as congressman smith was accusing merrick garland of acting like president biden's personal attorney, merrick garland's justice department was delivering opening arguments in the criminal trial of joe biden's adult sign -- son, hunter biden. if that is the kind of service you get from your personal attorney, maybe you should get a new personal attorney. for the record, in case your memory has become untethered to reality, donald trump spent two years complaining that his first attorney general jeff sessions was not acting enough like his personal attorney, then trump fired sessions and heil -- hired bill barr spent the rest of the term acting like trumps personal attorney but according to republicans, merrick garland is the one doing the president's bidding. the thing is republicans are now realizing it is hard to claim you are the victim of a rigged justice system when their presidential candidate has spent his whole presidential career trying to rig the justice system. merrick garland, for his part, was not taking any of the bait. >> i will not be intimidated, and the justice department will not be intimidated. we will continue to do our jobs free from political influence, and we will not back down from defending democracy. >> joining us now are former u.s. senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill and new york times reporter katie benner. claire, it is like trump claims biden is an enfeebled sudden but then also simultaneously a political public mastermind rigging the justice system. >> yeah, he can't manage to cover up a payment to a adult film star but joe biden is capable of having fingers everywhere in the justice department and pushing livers. right now the justice department is prosecuting a democratic congressman, a sitting democratic congressman, a sitting democratic u.s. senator, bob menendez from new jersey is in court as we speak being prosecuted by this justice department. those are two huge supporters of joe biden, and his son. >> joe biden son. >> do we remember that the same justice department declined to poppy -- prosecute matt gates on trafficking? if this justice department is doing political stuff they are doing it really badly. there is evidence, and evidence is not a democrat or republican or socialist or a communist. evidence is evidence, and what is happening is cases with evidence go to court and when there is not evidence -- >> they don't go to court. >> it's not complicated, alex. that is what you are seeing here and it doesn't have anything to do with whether you are a democrat or republican. >> it seems to me they painted themselves into a corner on this one. they don't have anywhere to go because donald trump is been convicted of 34 felony counts so the only thing they can do is echo what donald trump is saying when in reality, you served in the u.s. congress, you've served in the senate. you know it's real. this is a jury of trumps fears that convicted him on these felony counts. >> what is most damaging about it is what they are attacking. first, they go after free and fair elections and say no there is not fair, even though there is no evidence even than -- though none of the courts found any evidence if you don't win it's rigged so they are attacking people's faith in elections. now, what they are doing for huge numbers of americans, they are convincing them that the rule of law is not fair in this country and that is permanently damaging to our democracy and probably the worst thing he has done and that is saying something. >> it's a low bar. for people who don't understand and i think it's worth articulating, this sort of independence of the attorney general, they haul merrick garland up to the hill to insinuate that he's pulling the strings in fulton county and in manhattan and for people to understand better how it all functions, can you explain that relationship or lack thereof between someone like merrick garland and someone like fani willis? >> merrick garland is the highest law enforcement agent in the federal system. he is the attorney general of the united states and part of the executive branch so of course we have state systems, state courts and state laws. he makes sure federal laws are enforced so for example, what trump is charged with in new york those are state laws, not federal laws. it's about what happens in the state of new york, not the justice department, prosecuted by the manhattan district attorney there. two separate systems. however, most of the hearings today with republicans trying to collapse those two systems into one and muddy in the minds of voters what is going on, you know, it is something that for people who understand these are two very separate agreements you might not think anything of but for many people who are not paying attention, for people who are not reading the news every day and might not understand these are two separate systems, they will be confused and they will wonder why isn't merrick garland responsible. garland gave really firm push back but i think what the republicans are doing is not about whether or not there being hypocrites anymore. it's not about whether they are not quite accurate. it's really about trying to control a message, that conspiracy message, and make it last until the election to try to keep voters really riled up and wanting to get out there and vote. >> well, and it is really cynical, that the american public is ignorant enough that they will by this line, that the american public will buy that hook, line and sinker and i wonder what your faith is in the engagement of american voters leading up to the election because this all seems like it is designed to help trump in november. >> first of all, there are two [ inaudible ] at this point and one group of people is looking at the evidence and understanding -- let me just say something. state prosecutors usually don't even like federal prosecutors. i was a state prosecutor. i wanted them to leave me alone. we responded to 911 calls. most of the violent crime in this country is prosecuted by state prosecutors. so, there is a natural friction between the two systems, much less the illusion that some elected prosecutor is going to let merrick garland tell them what to do is ludicrous. i would've told the attorney general to pound sand if he came in my office while i was the elected d.a.. but what's going on here is they want to get their base excited. i think joe biden space understands how serious and damaging this is but to disengage voters between this group are going to decide the selection i getting convicted for felonies really hurts trump with that group and that is why you are seeing this really hair on fire, this is all agenda deal because they are worried about those disengaged independent voters that have gone back and forth from people like barack obama to donald trump and joe biden and now they are trying to fight for them to come back to donald trump. >> 34 felony counts unanimous jury decision cuts through the noise quite clearly. you know, the legal troubles in and around donald trump are not dissipating. there is the state electors plot, the fate -- fake electors plot. i believe the attorney general there today charge three trump a.i.d.s. in their state that brings indictments and five of the seven fake electors states. arizona, georgia, michigan, nevada and wisconsin. >> we have a federal case on this. donald trumpis the named defendant. there are still unindicted co- conspirators who have not yet been named. do you think we are going to get more on that federal >> sur i think we're talking about two different things, both important. on the federal cases against donald trump, the one merrick garland does ultimately oversee as attorney general one is a classified documents case in florida that is being held up almost indefinitely as the judge works away as slowly as i've ever seen any judge work their way through a case against the incredibly straightforward side of how to handle the classified information itself so there is that case, very slow and in this case about january 6 and the former president's role in it, it is now one of the most important pieces of, whether or not trump has immunity for any of his actions because he was the sitting president at the time of his attack, that's made its way to the supreme court and that could also drag on for quite some time because one possibility is the court, rather than saying whether or not trump is immune because they don't want to make any ruling that would want the case to move forward, the court could say we are kicking this back down to the district court level. judge tonya check-in is never seen the case. we want her to decide what she thinks was in the scope of trump's power as president and that could get re-litigated and appealed and come back to us adding just once a month, so also pushing that beyond election day. however, these are still things hanging over donald trump's head . to rather point, what is interesting about the state cases as they really go after trump's lawyers so for example, the case you mentioned was a constitution of lawyers including ken chas borough. to go after the lawyers even if donald trump did admit it, what you are looking at is the states you seem very empowered today to go after people who are helping trump break the law in those states, and it's going to make it difficult for him to find people who want to sign up for that job again even if he is president of the united states because again we have state courts and federal courts. we have the justice department. we have state prosecutors. clearly there are states that are willing to do things like this. >> yes, the states plow ahead and as we know from the education you gave us at the top of the hour, the states are not working at the behest of the federal government whether merrick garland is the ag or not. thank you for sharing your wisdom with us tonight. claire, please stay right here because i have so much more to talk to you about. coming up, america's european allies are following the u.s. presidential election with great anticipation and high anxiety and they are pretty sure they know who's going to win this one. first, president biden has officially called donald trump a convicted felon, but behind closed doors. we have more on the biden campaign strategy for the felon front runner right after this break. what if we don't get down in time to get a birthday gift for zoe? don't panic. with etsy we can find the perfect gift, and send her a preview right away. thanks guys. 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[ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. last night at a private fundraiser in connecticut and for the first time since donald trump was found guilty of 34 felonies, president biden confronted trump's legal status head on. here's the quote. for the first time in american history, former president is a convicted felon. now, he is running again not only obsessed with losing in 2020, he has clearly been, and i mean this sincerely, a little unhinged. so far, president biden has only said felon in private, but early postconviction poles may change that strategy. the majority of americans believe the jury in trump's case made the right call. according to a new poll, 40% of independent voters say trump's prosecution upheld the rule of law, and 10% of republican registered voters so they are less likely to vote for donald trump following his conviction. i'm back with former u.s. senator claire mccaskill and also joined by jonathan martin, senior political columnist at politico. let me first ask you what you see or what you understand to be the trepidation inside the biden campaign around having the president more aggressively call out trumps convicted felon status. >> i think it's two things. number one, not wanting to play into republican hands of the idea that this was a political hit job that was planned in the west wing and doj and obviously if biden was to go out this head-on, you certainly would hear more of that kind of language from republicans. the other issue was joe biden himself. as senator mccaskill knows, biden is an institutionalist. he does not like the idea of using that sort of an attack against his opponent, of weaponizing his opponents legal exposure. that is not a natural thing for joe biden. i think it every step of this campaign, biden has had to be pushed a little bit to go harder it trump, you know. for a while, he would not even say trump's name. i'm really curious if biden makes the same attack he did last night that you show there from the fundraiser on camera at a rally, because obviously it's a very different thing when you are staying -- saying that it a donor event than on camera. >> yes. clear, what is your expectation on that front? there is a debate and a couple of weeks. are we going to hear any of this? >> everybody knows he was convicted. it's not like anybody in america doesn't know that donald trump was convicted and i don't think biden needs to be the one to emphasize it over and over again. what he does need to do is stand up for those jurors. he needs to stand up for the institution. he needs to stand up for the institutions of america that have made our country so wonderful and that is what trump is campaigning against. he is actually campaigning against the essence of our system and that is what he needs to debate. he needs to go after trump's in a way that is really strong, just like he did in the state of the union. it's about strength, about the strength of america and about donald trump thinking that we suck and that's what he needs to be doing. >> do think that ideological or theoretical argument about the sanctity of institutions resonates more with the 10 people who are going to decide the e