coming to you from msnbc world headquarters in new york city. welcome to alex witt reports . we begin with new fallout and w also the reaction to this historic verdict in donald trump's hush money trial. donald trump's attorney, acknowledging there is a chance the former president of the united states may be sentenced to jail time following his conviction on 34 felony counts. blanche telling the ap the defense will argue strenuously for a non-incarcerated tory sentence. and a short time ago new reaction from republican house speaker mike johnson's comments on saying trump's verdict will be overturned. here's what clark brewster, the attorney representing stormy daniels told me here on msnbc. >> the idea that they were some part of some conspiracy is nonsense and these 12 people that spent all the time in that courtroom, weeks listen to the evidence and according to the oath return a verdict is a true and honest verdict based upon the facts and evidence and i ct witnessed a couple days of that flow in that courtroom and anyone that saw the speaker of the house guaranteeing a reversal, he has no idea what he's talking about. he wasn't present. he doesn't have the evidence or the instructions. it's offensive. anyone involved in the trial too hear that kind of garbage? >> trump has said that he planss to file an appeal. we have many correspondents and analysts in place to go over all of these new developments are going to bring in david henderson, civil rights attorney and former prosecutor and devlin barrett, just as reporter for the washington post . he was at the courthouse when the verdict was read. welcome to you both and thank you for joining us. devlin, react to what i just to played from stormy daniels attorney. >> this whole notion that and more ore to fight appeals coming, i think -- appeals are longshot. they are always a long shot. i think this notion that the appeals process, he has a fighters chance and he feels -- appeals process is not accurate for most appeals pick the appeals processes are long shots. so i think the political reaction will be the political reaction. people will say hold out hope for things and i would certainly never rule out what the future may hold, but i think you have to understand going into the appeals process that those are tough odds. >> let's bring you into the conversation to talk about the political fallout. and before we move more to the bigger picture of what is coming next, i want to talk about how the campaign is managing all of this fallout. >> this, for donald trump, will be a moment. how do you make the best politically out of what is legally not great, especially looking at a potential prison sentence for confinement or a fine. there's really no way to twist this on its legal and and that's were politically they raised $52 million, they claimed , over the first 24 hours after the verdict and you've seen his republican allies step up in his defense. larry hogan running for u.s. senate in maryland spoke up and suggested that people should respect the rule of law and the verdict. and of course chris acevedo, a campaign organizer to trump replied the campaign was over. but when you look at this for the democrats, they have stayed silent during the course of this trial and joe biden gave limited words yesterday other than calling for the rule of law to be respected as it has for 250 years here take a listen though because donald trump specifically has gone on the attack accusing joe biden of orchestrating this entire thing, which is unfounded. yet he is using that rhetoric to win political meal tickets. >> this is all done by biden and his people. >> it's reckless. it's dangerous. it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. they found donald trump guilty on all 34 felony counts. now he will be given the opportunity, as he should, to appeal that decision just like everyone else has that opportunity. >> i think when you compare the way the democrats approached the donald trump trial, largely not talking about stormy daniels or michael cohen are the underlying facts of the case of the testimony that came out but the white house was silent throughout. compare that to the way the republicans have used hunter biden's on criminal proceedings, his trial getting underway and the way they have used every little detail that comes out related to hunter biden which is a political weapon. there are two different approaches the sides have taken and the question is, does that stay the same over five months s are the two different approaches that change now that the general election is becoming near? >> draw on what von is talking about when it comes to a political approach as were getting into the crux of what is campaign season and the line in which they biden cam specifically has to walk without playing into the narrative that it was biden's justice department and bidens doing that donald trump wasn't that convicted, which is h completely false, as we all well know but could play into donald trump's narrative. >> so the first thing, as vaughn said, obviously, the manhattan district attorney does not take instructions from biden den or the administration. there are two different parts of government and that's not how american law works? second, i think one of the things that every politician facing criminal cases deals with is there is a political way to approach criminal charges, and there is a legal way to is approach criminal charges. and i think what you saw and the trump trial that just ended is the political approach often works badly in court because he was convicted on all counts. i assume that trump will keep applying this political approach to what he's doing buth that risks a jail sentence. on the biden and, to me what was most fascinating about that statement is his son hunter biden is about to go on trial next week in delaware. we must respect the process. we must respect the verdict. that means in some ways much ea more and is more consequential for president biden see that we may very well have a verdict against his son in a matter of days. so were just in a very interesting time politically and legally, all of it. and it cuts a lot of different ways. >> david i want to talk about the restrictions in place for former president donald trump and the lead up to the sentencing on july 11. these presentencing interviews that take place by the privations department in which they were interview, for instance, donald trump's family members that they could interview don junior, a vodka, alina, people connected to the former president. another not required to do so but what is required by the former president by that process? >> what is required depends on whether or not he was to be sentenced to probation as opposed to go to jail. they're not strict requirements but highly persuasive for the person who will ultimately be deciding your fate. the first big question that's asked in interviews is what is your criminal history. former president trump doesn't have any. they will ask do you have any substance abuse issues are issues to alcohol we should take into consideration? he claims he's is not an ace is that part of the interview look at the questions he will find uncomfortable. for example, they are allowed to assess his mental health and determine whether or not he needs counseling and whether or not he would cooperate with participating in counseling. i think he feels that part of ee the exam. and they will also ask how he feels about the charges brought against him and whether or not he accepts the jury verdict. as you said, he doesn't have to answer but the problem here is it's not difficult to look at statements he's made publicly about both and it's impossible for judge merchan to ignore those and it's impossible to ignore the fact that judge merchan appears to be someone who cares about fairness and it's almost impossible not to compare trump with michael cohen. michael cohen was an imperfect trial n.witness . he has a near- perfect punishment witness to compare trump to in this regard. you have someone who pled ve guilty and he accepted his punishment. he shows remorse and he did hisd time. different charges. different structure. but still it's difficult to look at someone who's is i did not do anything wrong at all. i don't have any remorse at all and then conclude that person should not serve any jail time at all. >> david, d.a. alan bragg had a conference after the conviction just across the street and he did not indicate either way as to whether or not the prosecutors would ask, are the manhattan d.a.s office will last for jail time. what goes into accounting for what they ask for when it comes to sentencing? >> they are going to think about the exact same things judge 24 will think about and that's what abrupt on in terms of the presentencing interview and what it consists of pick something bragg will think about is making sure that no one can come back and say that trump received any unfair treatment that could be used against him in terms of an appeal. in that regard it's easy to look at this conviction or soon to be convention and conclude this was a slamdunk from the beginning. it was not. and the things that bragg has done well are easy to overlook, not the least of which is staying calm in the face of all the public attacks against the system, which he is the center of one involves the prosecution. i think this recommendation will be balanced so no one can come back and claim that trump did not get a fair trial. former president trump is correct about one thing. he did receive an unfair trial. it was a wildly unfair in his favor. he got away with things that people never get away with fromn the judge and not from the prosecutor and all of that will inhibit his ability ultimately to successfully appeal this court. >> i was speaking to stormy daniels' attorney and the hour before last, this is my third hour on now, and i asked him if stormie was going to attend the sentencing hearing and he said if the prosecutors asked for her to attend, she will likely attend because she respects them. if she were to attend the sentencing hearing, which you have a role in that hearing? >> yes but i don't she will have a role in this hearing. i think would be different if are talking about a special crime where she was a direct victim of the offense but something that is important to keep in mind when you are a he prosecutor is how these cases impact individuals who are at the center of the case and how they are made to feel over the course of litigation. i do think there are aspects ofe what stormie had to endure that will be meaningful for her to sit in the courtroom and observe the sentencing. it's unthinkable to think they will let her be part of in that respect. >> in the last hour we were talking about who was the victim here? with suzanne craig we asked, was that how voters would be at the victim. how would you represent voters as the victim in this trial during the sentencing hearing? >>g the voters represent the general public and our criminal justice system has been under fire for quite some time and ui that's been perpetuated by trump because what he is forcing us to realize is how unfair the system can be. and in that regard it's important to hold him accountable to what you would hold anyone else accountable in this circumstance. i would look at judge merchan ul and i would say i understand he is a former president but at the same time we both know anyone who is behaved the way he has up to this point would be facing jail time in response to his conduct because ultimately the question is this -- is this someone we can work with on probation or is this someone we need to put behind bars? one of the considerations in the analysis is whether or not this person maintains company with disreputable people, and he does. he is a surprising number of people he associates with you either landed themselves behind bars or fear -- currently facing charges. he's not anyone who under any other circumstance would be a good candidate for probation despite the fact he does not have a criminal history. >> there is one thing i keep going back to, which was trump's gag order violation hearing with judge juan merchan. andy actually said to the court on the record that he certainly did not want to have to put the former president of the united states in jail for violation of a gag order and not just because it would slow the process of the trial down at the time, which seems like it was now 10 months ago despite the fact it was only a couple weeks ago at this point but because he is the former president of the united states and the message that was sent to the general public. do you think we can draw from that commentary from the judge as to where he will land when it comes to the sentencing? >> you know, that's a great point. i think we can draw from it. i think what merchan said in that moment is don't make me do it . and i think that's been merchan's posture on a lot of these issues with donald trump since the trial began and even before. and i think to all the great points that have been made, i think you can sum that up to say donald trump's behavior running into the sentencing is incredibly important because what they want, but the system e once from defendants who have been convicted is some acknowledgment of wrongdoing. he doesn't want to do that. 't and that makes it -- my dogs have found wrongdoing -- i apologize. back to you. >> we always love a good dog interruption. i've had a couple myself. got to love it. david and devlin, stick with me. donald trump says he is going to appeal but on what grounds? how the judge trump lambasted closed off many avenues for that appeal. we are back in just 90 seconds. maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd, things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare—ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. the people of our country know it's a hoax. you know it's a hope. they get it. you know, they are really smart and it's really something. so we will be appealing this scam. >> we are back with former prosecutor david henderson and devlin barrett, reporter for the washington post. devlin, trump has repeatedly said this verdict is a scam. he continues to deny any type of relationship or interaction with stormy daniels back in 2006, despite the testimony we heard on the stand from stormy daniels. you watch these proceedings day in and day out. what do you make so far of what we are seeing from the former president? >> look. i think that he is trying to come up with politically palatable explanations for a guilty verdict. and a guilty on all counts verdict. he's been pre-gaming this outcome for a while saying the jury won't be fair. the judge won't be fair. but now he has a larger problem, which is that the verdict was guilty on all counts. so i think a lot of what he's doing is design for his political audience. the fundamental problem he has is its being squeezed does the political solution makes a legal problem worse is his basic problem. a lot of what he is saying -- i was struck by most of what he said at that postverdict announcement. it's bad for his sentencing. >> david i want to talk about and appeals here and it and appeals process, i should say. and specifically for someone -- i want to play for you todd blanche responding to the possibility and/or how likely it will happen in appeal. >> your confident on appeal what is your number one issue quick don't give me a legal brief that you haven't written yet. >> i think the recusal issue is meaningful. the statute of limitations but the background of why this case was brought is meaningful. i think the witnesses -- i do not think michael cohen should ever be somebody who can be relied upon to convict somebody. >> does he have grounds for an appeal? recusal and the statute of limitations? those things were both dealt with. >> they were both dealt with. in a nutshell, will there be an appeal? absolutely. the percentages somewhere north of 100%. at the same time does he have a valid basis for an appeal? no. and let's pick up on stormy daniels is a good example as to why because it comes down to this. you are allowed to have a really bad trial strategy, which they did. a smart trial strategy would be to admit you had with stormy daniels. just stipulate to it and then you can say judge, there is no reason to get into any details whatsoever about exactly what happened. once the prosecution establishes what her role was before the colors a witness you can say, judge, we stipulated and established what happens with stormy daniels. no need for her to come to the stand except to sensationalize the trial. instead they got up an opening statement and said she was a lyle and during direct examination they did not object with certain details that came up and that's important because when they moved for a mistrial in light of some of the detail she got into, judge merchan said, look, when this came up i was shocked he did not object, but you did not object. and you open the door to it beginning in your opening statement and what he is effectively saying is this was your trial strategy so don't come whining to me now that the fact that you say it didn't work. and that's what appellate courts will look at. they will look at the fact that since he was sitting there and since he saw the pitch he was the best position to determine if it was a ball or strike but they will give great deference to him as the trial judge and that's why i say they will appeal but i don't think they have good grounds. >> the new york times also reporting an appeal will be a referendum on judge juan merchan, however , the judge has closed off a lot of avenues for that appeal, full well knowing they were going to appeal based on some of his actions inside the courtroom. >> that's exactly right. and as a lawyer watching it, it's something i think is easy to overlook. but it's amazing how regulated judge merchan was during the trial. to be frank with you at times i thought he was too fair to trump and the reason i felt that way is because i found myself thinking i've seen people get incarcerated or a trial for being disrespectful to the judge at the bench when the jury is not present. these outbursts the trump head inside the courtroom and outside the courtroom i thought to myself, he's going so far it's unfair to everyone else who stands trial, but now that the jury -- >> you think you could've been incarcerated when he violated this gag orders? >> in my heart i felt that way, yes. but now that the guilty -- the jury has found him guilty that gives merchan eminence to say that i was balancing therewith this minute for the limits his ability to appeal based on conduct? payment what do you suspect when it comes to post sentencing? were looking at july 11 for sentencing. we don't have any idea what the sentence will look like but he is the presumptive republican nominee for president a couple days later and he will accept the nomination and make his way towards november. i'll be looking at a sentence that is delayed based upon appeal and then what if he wins the white house? >> look. all of these things are possible which is why this is such a fascinating case to cover. i'm not a politics reporter. i'm just a court rep, basically. a