Theres recently been a lot of speculation about just that kind of scenario. But we dont have to actually imagine because Something Like that has happened before in july offo 1981. Heres the headline. Reagan reversing many u. S. Policies. The New York Times reported the reaganli administration has set about accomplishing a sweeping reversal of policy and practice in the way the government deals with business and individual citizens. In key cabinet and regulatory posts the reagan transformation amounts to a revolution of attitude involving the appointment of officials who in previous administrations might have been ruled out over concern of lack of interest or open or ostilt to the mission of the agencies theyhe now lead. Sounds familiar. President reagan embarked on what you might call the first modern purge of the administrative state, filling the federal government with young conservative zealots who were looking to carry out a radical newo agenda. And nowhere was that more evident than at the department oft justice. As politico reported in 2015 the doj was the nerve center of the reagan revolution, the most intellectually vibrant and ideologically Conservative Agency of the federal government. Among thede battalion of conservatives who entered Reagans Justice Department were these guys. A pair of Young Lawyers called john roberts and sam alito. The two would become much more famous for playing in a different bandng years later. During the Reagan Administration they laid the foundation what would become their judicial legacy. They spent their time in the Justice Departmenthe workshopin hard right decisions like ending Affirmative Action and curbing Voting Rights. John roberts was actually working in w the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department writing memos about how to restrict key provisions of the Voting Rights act. At one point Samuel Alitos job was tots help Ronald Reagans solicitorgeneral Craft Arguments against Affirmative Action for the Supreme Court. That solicitorgeneral recalled toor The New Yorker alito cam up with some choice lines such as hank aaron would not be regarded as the alltime home run king and a model for youth as defenses had moved had he ever moved to the plate. That trite Baseball Metaphor did not do it, though, and they lost the battle to curb Affirmative Action. When the time came for President Reagan to reauthorize the Voting Rights act his administrationht ultimately cav to political pressure and renewed the landmark legislation. Nonetheless, this group of conservative warriors represented the first frontns ia decades long effort a to try to erode Voting Rights bit by bit. President reagan issued a statement before just flying to new york on a political trip. He supported a tenyear extension of the Voting Rights act but told reports he favored making it easier for states and communities to bail out of the act, showing they were no longer discriminating and thus no needing to comply. After n all this time there could be theti possibility of a better bail out opportunity for those who have abided by the election law. That may anger black groups, but it pleased conservative southerners who have said theed law is unfair. I think it shows a willingness on the part of the administration to encourage the judiciary and the senate as a whole to look very carefully at this whole question of the extension of Thele Voting Right Act of 1965. So began the long journey to reverse americas hard won progress on civil rights. Now were in the year 2024 you probably know how this story ends. Those two plucky young reagan Justice Department officials eventually made their way to Th Supreme Court where they got a chance to gut Voting Rights, end Affirmative Action and in Samuel Alitos case to write half a Century Oflf Reproductive freed and pepped the latest 63 decision once again attacking rights and in this case Voting Rights. Lastvo year the court ruled a state had engaged in illegal racial gerrymandering diluting the power of the black voters. But Justice Alito writing the south must give Carolina Republicans the benefit of the doubt when they say that race had nothing to do with how they drew the congressionalwi maps. Quoting from gralitos opinion when a Federal Court finds that race drove a legislatures District Decisions it is finding the legislature bears offensive and meaningful conduct of apartheid. We should not be quick to hurl such accusations at the political branches. In other words, its pretty offensive to accuse south Carolina Republicans of racism, so lets not. Sm and if theres no racism, then theres nothing to see here, folks. But if e,alitos Decision Seeme Absurd and also extreme, another Reagan Administration alum, a man by the name of Clarence Thomas, took this all one step further. In his concuring opinion Justice Thomas argued the federal judiciary should have no role about settling disputes about anyng election maps, and then h called into question a half century of precedent following the courts landmark decision in brown v. Education. Hey,br why not . All of them on the chopping block, why not go for desegregation, too . This is what it looks like when you fill government withli political ovzealots. The Administration May end, but the people dost not necessarilyo away. They just become the next generation of serious people, experienced enough for a Confirmation Hearing and young enough for a lifetime appointment. Joining me nowim is ari berman, national Voting Rights correspondent and mother jones. Hes also author of the new book Minority Rule. Also joining me is dahlia lithwick, slates Senior Editor writing about the courts ands e law. Thank you both for joining this, well, monumental day. Lets talk about the project here. We did not get to this moment by chance. I was having ptsd from Reliving My Last book and going into my new one. Im sorry for that. Because this is history very familiar to me, which is that the Conservative Movementwh specifically put people that were opposedec to the civil rigs movement, opposed to Voting Rights, opposed to these policies in positions of power to dosi things through the cour they knew they could not do through the normal political process. They knew they would not have been able to get rid of the Voting Rights act, overturn roe v. Wade through the normal political process. Oc he said lets construct this antidemocratic court that would do all these anti democratic things and were seeing this decades long strategy play out today. They are overturning roe v. Wade. They are gutting the Voting Rights act to t such a point it barely effective, and this didnt happen byff chance. Basically the Conservative Movement has made the courts their test case for Minority Rule because they know that the court at least in their hopes will be ipsulated from political accountability. And certainly the way the justices are acting they feel they are. This week of all weeks, dahlia, when we find Justice Alito has flags bearing the hallmark of the Insurrection Movementth flying above one of s homes, here he is again going against the will of the people and the democratic process to undermine votingcr rights. What is yourng reaction to the decision today . Yeah, i mean i think your point is the right one, alish, which is these are both stories of Minority Rule and complete lack of accountability, and i really want to make one more pitch to folks who are listening that these are the same story, that we tend to sort of talk about alito malfeasance, weird behavior, upside down flags as a kind ofow a one story and then e doctrine that comes out of the court as another, and they are so intrinsically connected because theyre both stories of what it is to create a judiciary that is so utterly, utterly protect from public disdain, public displeasure from the sense that they are subverting democracy as we know it. And i think both the decision today and Justice Alitos publi conduct where hes just flouting Everysial Ethics and sort of appearance constraint, there are of a piece, they are both stories of what it is toce be utterly untouchable in this moment. This is going to have implications and beyond the conservative project, theres the Immediate Impact on our elections and how we have a Representative Democracy or not, ari. This is happening in south carolina, but how do you see this decision echoing across the United Ecstates . Youre right. Whatta it does is gives the republicans ave house seat. They also ran out the clock because a lower court was already forced to basically say the republicans can this district and then the Supreme Court went further and theyre making it f very difficult to challenge racial gerrymandering in the future. Theyve already gutted the Voting Rights act twice. Theyve also said partisan gerrymandering cannot be challenged in Federal Court, which is absolutely insane. You could draw a map where one party gets 30 of the votes, 70 of thevo seats and theyll say cant even challenge it let alone strike it down. Racial gerrymandering is one of the only things you can still challenge when it comes to Voting Rights, now theyre say basically racial gerrymandering because essentially what alito is saying lets give the benefi of the doubt to those who are discriminating versus those who are fighting it. There are people suexpressing votes, diluting votes, making it harder to vote as opposed to those people facing the obstacles to voting . Im not asking this rhetorically. I am asking this. Inrh saying that race has nothi to do with this, they are just revealing the racial agenda they operate within and under. Is that unfair . Because nine times out of ten these justices with the exception of one ruling earlier this year are always going with the whiter people. Right. This is like a layer cake of gaslighting, alex. Theres so many levels of, you know, were just trying to be fair, were just going to defer to the legislature. Were just going to say whatever the rules are Finding Errors in the District Court finding, theres extensive, extensive findings from the lower court, the threejudge panel. You know, alito just bats away. I dont find any of this to be indicative of, you know, of racial gerrymander. So theres layers and layers of denialism and maybe the cherly on top of this cake is when Justiceis Alito literally tells Justice Kagen an opinion she wrote, that his opinion is actually truer to that than hers. And when she says in her dissent, no, youve completely obverted Everything Ie wrote, hes like oh, honey, listen to me. Theres just every single check that was supposed to protect disadvantaged Racialte Minoriti from having their Power Suppressed over centuries, every one of those checks is batted away under the theory that this was never a problem, its certainly not a problem now. As chilling as all the writing in this opinion. Hes basically suggesting brown v. Boardly of education, there nothing that should follow fromt that, it has no teeth. The courts should not be involved in this business. I meanin reminder Clarence Thom was put on the court to replace thurgood marshall. The iron and alarm bells that should bela ringing how do you read that opinion . We were jolting about whats the silver line here because at least Clarence Thomas is because he literally wants to repeal the 20th l century. Saying he wants to overturn the one person, one vote rulings which earl warren said were the most important rulings of that court,or saying you cant challenge racial gerrymandering ever, whicher will basically gu the 14th and 15th amendment. Hes basically saying from reconstruction onwards from the 1860s and 70s onwards we should repeal all of that and we should go back to the day ironically when black people have nohe rights and other racially disenfranchised minorities have no rights. Yes, its concurrence, but the fact hes even putting this out there, what we see these radical concurrences, they become theic thing the lower courts pick up on and it goes back to the Supreme Court. It reminds me of the Dobbs Decision where thomas is suggesting gay marriage may be something to follow. Moving the goal posts down the field and saying maybe we should rethink brown. That may not be the Immediate Impact of all this, but it does sort of set a new goal for the right, does itor not . It does. And it embodens as ari says Lower Court Judges trying out constantly for the Supreme Court to be like im going to read the thomas dissent as the Majority Opinion and write it into law and take a big swing and see what happens. Weve got case after case in this Supreme Court that arese borne of that kind of zealotry, and i think the really Importana Point Ari is saying and we shouldnt miss its really easy to get focused on the flags and whats happening at the court, but the a Court Eviscerated the reconstruction amendments. For all Intents And Purposes the court saidte that the amendment that promise a freer, fuller participatory democracy are essentially unenforceable. And for us to sit around and be like, this cant go any farther, Clarence Thomas is pretty much telling us hes willing to take it farther, just jump on and enjoy theer ride. Repeal the 20th century from Clarence Thomas. Ari berman, dahlia lithwick, thank you for your time and wisdom. Im not going to say calming alarmed ause im more than i ever have been, but thank you for your time tonight. I t appreciate you. Coming up Ronald Reagan once again its reagan night. Ronald reagan visited the heavily bureaucratic bronx in 1980, and i tonight donald trum tried to same thing. But first an Appeals Court today shutdown trumps Hail Mary Tory get judge juan merchan thrn off his case. The latest in the Hush Money Trials Denials is next. St in thy trials denials is next hi, im chris and i lost 57 pounds on golo. Golo isnt complicated. I dont have to follow a restrictive diet, and i dont have to spend a lot of time making meals. Using golo was truly transformative. It was easy, and inexpensive. Why choose a sleep number smart bed . Can it keep me warm when im cold . Wait, no, im always hot. Sleep number does that. Now, save 50 on the sleep Number Limited Edition smart bed. Plus, free Home Delivery when you add any base shop now at sleepnumber. Com a slow network is no network for business. Thats why more choose Comcast Business. And now, were introducing ultimate