Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240703

Hi, everyone, welcome to monday. The people of the great state of Nuclear Reactor versus donald j. Trump is entering a new chapter. The prosecution rested and team trump has started its defense. On the stand right now, attorney Robert Costello who according to Michael Cohen formed a back channel to donald trump himself in the year 2018. Thats when Michael Cohen was the target of a federal Criminal Investigation. Costello claiming that Michael Cohen told him trump did not know about the Hush Money Payments to Stormy Daniels. Cohen has testified on direct that he was still in protect trump mode at the time. That he didnt tell costello. The prosecution rested its case, though, just in the last hour after methodically brick by brick restating the elements of their criminal case against the expresident. They sought to clean up some of the damage done by Trump Defense attorney todd blanche with an assist from their star witness, trumps exattorney, Michael Cohen. Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger bringing the case back to its basics as the New York Times report, quote, are you actually on trial here in this case . Hoffinger asks cohen. No, he says. Through her questions, hoffinger made an obvious point, that the defense was seeking to make Michael Cohen look like a criminal but ultimately the jurors arent here to judge cohens criminality. Theyre here to judge trump. Hoffinger also reminding the jury that Michael Cohen already pleaded guilty to the very crime that donald trump is accused of trying to cover up, Campaign Finance violations for the payments to Stormy Daniels. And prosecutors after a lengthy and tense back and forth with the defense entered into evidence this photo, its from cspans archives, its a screen shot from october 24th, 2016 around 7 57 p. M. That day. It shows donald trump with his bodyguard Keith Schiller. Now, why does it matter . Well, the photo shows the two men together suggesting that Michael Cohen could have talked to trump about Stormy Daniels, and he could have talked to Keith Schiller too. It undermines blanches big, whatever you want to call it, grand slam, aha moment from last week when he suggested that Michael Cohen wasnt telling the truth about the substance of his call on the 24th with trump. That blow coming after a long crossexamination, none of it really significantly chipping away at the Mountain Of Black And White Documentary Evidence or Circumstantial Evidence that prosecutors have already entered into the record in this case. In fact, nbc news is reporting that blanche did not even bring up the 2017 Oval Office Meeting where trump reiterates that Michael Cohen would be reimbursed for the Hush Money Payments he made to porn star Stormy Daniels. There were also signs throughout the crossexamination that blanches swipes didnt exactly land in the eyes of the jury that he needs to convince. During crossexamination nbc news reports this, from the courtroom, quote, the jury is having a tough time. Jurors are rubbing their eyes, holding their head in hands and shifting in seats, end quote. A day in which the trump trial returned to focus on a potentially damning set of facts for the expresident is where we begin with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. With us for the hour msnbcs legal analyst andrew weissmann, the New York Times reporter Suzanne Craig and Donny Deutsch back with us, the host of on brand podcast. Lets start with my friend and colleague, nbc news correspondent Vaughn Hillyard outside the courthouse. Vaughn, this is a day, i think, widely anticipated is a fair way to describe it. I think a lot wanted to see how Michael Cohen would be and a lot were interested in how the prosecution would clean up, if thats the right term to use, from any damage to his credibility that todd blanche did last week. With those metrics and any others that you were looking for as the day began, tell me how today has gone. Reporter right, nicolle. After 15 days of the prosecution presenting its case to the jury, four of those with Michael Cohen directly testifying about the years of experience that led him to ultimately flip on donald trump and come to this courthouse and testify what he says was the truth about his negotiations with david pecker in August Of 2015 to have this catch and kill scheme be ultimately executed and have Stormy Daniels paid off in the weeks before the 2016 election and then ultimately go to the oval office in February Of 2017 and work through that Reimbursement Plan of 11 different checks for 35,000, Michael Cohen left the stand here today presenting hours of testimony to this jury and there were questions under redirect in which you noted the attempts to clean up some of the questions that under crossexamination Donald Trumps defense team may have left with the jury and it was particularly that october 24th phone call where that clip, that photo of Keith Schiller, the bodyguard standing next to donald trump at the end of a tampa bay Campaign Rally at 7 57 p. M. You see the two men walk offstage. At 8 02 00 p. M. That is when Phone Records show a 90second Phone Conversation took place between Keith Schiller and Michael Cohen, and when the prosecution asked Michael Cohen if in that phone call he talked to donald trump about the Stormy Daniels payment, he said, yes, he, in fact, did. The crossexamination also tried to call into question, phone calls that happened on the morning of october 26th suggesting Michael Cohen had concern about an Extortion Campaign related to tiffany trump. But he testified here in front of this jury that he, in fact, with those phone calls with donald trump did talk about the Stormy Daniels payment and a new number that Michael Cohen presented to this jury was the fact that in october of 2016, it wasnt just two phone calls on the morning of october 26th or one call on the evening of october 24th, but it was, quote, more than 20 times he had conversations with donald trump about the Stormy Daniels payment. Those were the words from Michael Cohen to this jury to wrap up the 15 days of the prosecutions case in order to make donald trump ultimately guilty of these 34 felony count. So heres what vaughn is talking about. Heres that testimony under oath. You testified that you believe you talked to Keith Schiller and donald trump on that call. Do you recall that, answer, yes, i do. Did you have a number of conversations with mr. Trump about resolving the Stormy Daniels matter during that time period . Answer, yes. Were some of those in person . Yes, were some of them by phone, yes, were some longer, yes, were some shorter, yes. Sounds like a dr. Seuss. [ laughter ] how many conversations did you have with mr. Trump about the Stormy Daniels matter during that time. To vaughns point, answer, quote, more than 20. I mean, again, im not a lawyer, but it seems that their strategy was to take, you know, a speck of dust on a pile of, you know, cow poop and say this speck may or may not have been there. Its still a massive amount of stuff into the record that isnt even being disputed. So, that is, you know, welcome to Defense Lawyering. [ laughter ] you should welcome todd blanche. And i really actually dont mean that pejoratively. Youre dealt a hand, and you play it. And what you want to do is say, look, i found this. Heres a discrepancy or and then even if the witness made a mistake, you dont say its a mistake, you say its a lie, because thats subjective as to whether it was intentional or not and then you want to then blow that up and say, you know, if that happened here, it happened 20 times, of course, they dont have the proof of that. They only have the proof of the one, and thats just that is what Defense Lawyering is. And obviously its so interesting because Michael Cohen going into this is a difficult witness for the prosecution, because he obviously has a lot of baggage, so thats clear but i have to say i think Susan Hoffinger, i think, really shone. You can see her experience. She is an experienced Defense Lawyer as well as a prosecutor and i think that helped. And i think the biggest star of who did really well is Michael Cohen. You know, all of the sort of concern about was he going to be volatile . Was he going to fight needlessly, maybe little pieces, but in general, i think the prosecution has to think and im sure his counsel thinks, he really held up and you know what, this is a guy who of course, hes there because of his own choices in life, but he has been through a lot, and, you know what, having the whole world focusing on you and the entire Trump Machine focused on you as well to dig up every speck of dirt, its going on right now as we speak. Yeah. You know, thats difficult, and i have to say, i was surprised. That he held up . Yeah, so well. What i keep going back to david kelleys interviews on this program to its disorienting, right . Im watching the way i would watch a television show, right . Trump is always succeeding in making his sordid criminal life like a tv show and im thinking, wow, they really landed some blows on him but what are the blows . He committed the same crimes trump is on trial for. This is go whether the jury can become convinced that the Southern District of new york was convinced of when they named trump individual one, the unindicted coconspirator. It seems whether or not cohen committed a crime is not the question but a Defense Strategy to try to change the question . This is why, you know, i think if youre the prosecution and certainly when i was a prosecutor, i wanted a really smart jury. Because a lot of what happens on the defense side and, again, i dont say this pejoratively is theater and the more you can say look at the birdie, look over here, the better, and thats why, you know, when ive been talking to you about this, youre like, couldnt they focus the jury on think of all the evidence before he took the stand. Im sure that is one of the things youll hear, and in many ways so much of what Michael Cohen said is corroborated and you kind of knew what the story was beforehand. And the jury will decide if that was enough, right . We have no idea. Vaughn, since ive been on the air, its been 11 minutes and 7 seconds. Theres something dramatic happening in the courtroom, i hear, because i was rapt by your report, i dont know what it is. Bring us inside whats unfolding. Reporter the courtroom was momentarily just cleared here of the gathered press as well as the jury, because judge merchan wanted to admonish Robert Costello, the current witness, brought forward by the defense team for donald trump. He has been limited to a very narrow scope of testimony that he has been allowed to provide and theres been several instances where he has begun to answer a question and then ultimately there was an objection raised by the prosecution which was sustained by judge merchan but from our team inside theyre saying costello at one point let out a geez and then another time let out a sigh, and another point ordered something to be struck from the record and this led ultimately judge merchan to order everybody out of the courtroom and right before as this was happening, there were some quick words that judge merchan directed at costello telling him to not roll your eyes at me. He had suggested that he was, quote, staring him down, so it sounds like Robert Costello, who was that individual who was briefly counseling Michael Cohen for a couple of months in 2018 and is testifying here, that cohen had told him that he did this all independently of donald trump, and he never informed donald trump of the Stormy Daniels testimony payment, this is now sort of a key witness here for the defense team, but with the jury in the room clearly judge merchan very peeved to the point he asked the jury and press to leave and they are now just only being let in. I have some of the transcript that vaughn is reading out. Merchan says, quote, id like to discuss these are from our correspondent, our programs Correspondent Lisa Ferry in the courtroom. Id like to discuss proper decorum in my courtroom, merchan says. If you dont like my ruling, you dont say geez. You dont say strike it because im the only one who can strike it from the record. Judge merchan, you dont give me sideeye and dont roll your eyes, costello, i understand, merchan, clear the courtroom. This seems like seems very theatrical and trumpian. What sort of damage can it do in the eyes of the jury . Can i just say having ive been in a situation where i have had to and gotten Court Permission to have a lawyer for somebody testify. Those lawyers are dispassionate and careful and they are only going to answer questions that they legally have to answer, because they have a continuing duty of loyalty to their client or sometimes former client, and you know and i would know in that situation that they were being completely ethical and trying to adhere to their continuing duties to their client. This is the antithesis of that from what were seeing. And just remind everybody who costello is. So, costello is somebody who Michael Cohen spoke to and had an Attorney Client privilege relationship that ultimately didnt hire. He has worked with Rudy Giuliani and there has been evidence introduced and this also came up in the Mueller Investigation suggesting that he and others were part of an effort to try to get Michael Cohen not to cooperate. Itll be interesting to see how much that plays out on cross. His behavior in the courtroom, lets just say, it is not consonant with somebody who has obligations to that client or perspective client and isnt coming off as dispassionate. I mean, Susanne Craig, youve watched this and ive read it all which is a distant second to seeing it. I have not read merchan this upset nevery day of the Trial Transcript ive read. No, and i think whats really important about it, how much the jury reads him. You always see in these trial, this is my third one, the jury and judge have a real relationship. Its a big error on trumps teams part to have this sort of exchange happening in the courtroom. They really pick up on what the judge is thinking and i think it works against whoever is doing this, which happens to be trump in this instance. Its so ironic that everybody was saying, oh, michael is going to be glib or bust or 25 hours on the stand, nothing. This guy is on the stand for a half hour. So that tells you something and, andrew, obviously you know this infinitely better than any of us, that has to play on a jury. When you see a judge behaving that way, it destroys the credibility of that witness. He might as well say, dont believe this guy. Theyve got some smart jurors on there including, i mean, two lawyers too who, you know, have seen this sort of thing before theyve been in courtroom, im sure, you know, theyre going to be reading this. Judges like jurors and jurors like judges. Right. I mean, judges they need each other. Thats the symbiosis. Disrespecting a judge as a witness, not its just not a good thing, and its especially because its going to feed the reason its not helpful to trumps team right now is thats going to feed into the cross, that alliance with i speak as i have no expertise except getting picked twice. I know there are technical aspects to bank fraud but youre trying to figure out if this guy is as mobbed up as the people who have gone to jail for him and when some guy comes up talking in a way that makes judge merchan clear the courthouse to talk about decorum to donnys point, after Michael Cohen has kept his cool through four days. Adds credibility. Correct. I agree. Whats interesting, you put this together with trump closing his eyes and if im a juror, i kind of go, this side doesnt take it seriously. This side thinks theyre above it. This side thinks they dont have to be here. Nobody wants and kind of works on you a bit. These are human beings and as i have said, never been a Trial Attorney but sitting through thousands of focus group, people are people and they react a certain way. Exactly and i dont know if this applies in a courtroom, but in politics, theres a curve, right . I mean, cohen is there as the cocriminal. Hes not the pope was busy. The pope couldnt testify. He was on cbs last night. I mean, lots of and, again, i only know what i know from Mob Movies And David Kelley and you but it seems there has to be one example in time where someone had lied before and maybe even gone to jail was viewed as credible by a jury. Ive told this story about when i have sammy gravano, the underboss of the Gambino Family on the stand, he cooperated and he obviously had a lot more baggage than Michael Cohen. Only 19 murders. [ laughter ] that little thing but one of the things that was part of his baggage was as he was on Tape Counseling Members of the Gambino Family about what happens if you get called into the grand jury. He had various percentages. You know, i cant remember the exact amount, 65 of the time you can actually just tell the truth and then he says, but you know, another 25 or so, he says, you sort of bob and weave, like you sort of, what do you mean and trying to avoid the question then the rest, just lie. And i remember summation just saying, the only thing that is surprising about that Tape Recording is that it doesnt say 100 of the time lie. Exact listen, i actually i mean, vaughn, i want to give you the last word and ask a twopart question. One, bring me up to speed if this is ongoing, but, two, it is possible that the jury found Michael Cohen engaging and rather tolerant. I mean, the most generous descriptions in Conservative Media of todd blanches time was uneven, todd blanche apologized to the jury for, quote, jumping around a lot. So, again, in right wing media and todd blanches own words it veered between uneven and jumping around a lot. We have no idea. The jury may have found Michael Cohen, a guy who has paid a price and feel some remorse. They may have found him alarmingly credible. We have no we know nothing. You might know something, vaughn. Reporter right, and the question was, was there going to be another potential witness that comes forward that wasnt somebody like Robert Costello who is a friend of Rudy Giuliani, who Michael Cohen i mean were talking about the witness on the stand right now, its the same witness who Michael Cohen has already told the jury acted in a covert bias type of way when he was sending him emails, again, emails that have already been entered as evidence in which he said im going to be talking with my friend, Rudy Giuliani, who is meeting for dinner with his client, donald trump, let me know if theres anything that i should be conveying to them and passing along, that came just mere weeks before he flipped, and so i think for this jury here, they have heard from somebody who doubled down here today. Susan hoffinger said do you have any doubt you had a conversation with him to work it out. No doubt. Do you have any doubt that he gave the final signoff. Cohen, no doubt, again, so if Robert Costello is the defenses one key witness that they bring forward, if youre the jury you can call into question the extent which you would put Robert Costellos story up against Michael Cohen. The main man, the defendant himself who will sit there and would have the opportunity to go and defend himself and testify and right now theres no indication that hes going to do that on his own behalf. All right, we have to sneak in a commercial break. No one is going anywhere. This is an on going situation. It is a Breaking News Situation and well dive into our phones and read and learn what we can about these dramatic moments inside the courthouse right now. Well continue to follow this testimony of Robert Costello, plus, at some point next week the presumptive president ial nominee could possibly be a convicted felon. Well talk to a longtime journalist, George Stephanopoulos, about how our politics has arrived at this moment. Much more still to come. 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Look at that the broccoli was fantastic. That broccoli i think some of them were six, seven pounds. We are back with andrew, sue, donny and vaughn. Vaughn, i want to come back to you about this dramatic moment unfolding. Lisa rubin tweeted this a couple minutes ago. In one of the wildest things ive ever seen in court judge merchan cleared the courtroom after saying Robert Costello stared him done after outly reacting to objections he sustained. Sue craig is Reporting Merchan has been sort of at the end of his rope patiencewise all day and seems to have put him over the edge. Whats happening now . We understand that costello is being the cross is under way and the people are questioning him now. Do you have any insights that how thats going . Reporter right, the defense has already finished their questioning. It was rather brief of Robert Costello. This is, i think, worth noting from costello, he did say Michael Cohen said numerous times that trump didnt know, that cohen did it on his own and he repeated that numerous times. Again, getting that out of Robert Costello for the defense was key, but the prosecution has pushed back and theyre currently asking Robert Costello their own line of questioning, because this is that time frame from april 2018 when Michael Cohens home, his apartment, hotel were raided. His phones were taken from him, and he turned to Robert Costello in those intervening months as somewhat of an informal counsel to talk through that. This came before he ended up working with federal investigators and entering that guilty plea in august of 2018, so the prosecution will make the case to the jury that Robert Costellos words only mean so much, because Michael Cohen has already said he would lie and was lying to people like Robert Costello because he did not intend to ever ultimately flip on donald trump, but now this was the question of whether the prosecution would get the chance to ask questions of somebody like a Robert Costello and they are now having that opportunity. Of course, we expect the courtroom to be dismissed here in a matter of minutes though, nicolle. So, i mean, what costellos Testimony On Direct was about was, sleep well tonight. You have friends in high places. It was the mobbiest part of the case. It was uncovered during the Mueller Investigation and was cited in volume 2 which was about obstruction. Obstruction of justice and this was one of the allegations in there which was a series of emails which were used to be essentially telling Michael Cohen, you can sit tight and dont worry, the president of the United States has your back, and theres been there was a lot more around that. One of the things crossexamination is going on as we sit here and just reading the notes being taken out of what is going on, just to donnys point, the contrast with Michael Cohen, i think, is going to be really good for the prosecution, because there are things that costello is sort of denying and making Susan Hoffinger, the ada, sort of have to work for which are clearly the case, like, didnt you think this would be something where you would not be aligned with President Trump and Rudy Giuliani and this would be good for you because, like, theyre in high places. No. Come on. I mean, so, i just think that and his behavior with the judge, i mean, this is just not how respectable lawyers behave or at least thats what the jury could find at the end of this. Where is you had Michael Cohen really just doing an Exemplary Performance under high stress situations. Ive heard that when michael talks, he really connects with the jury. Ive heard that from a few reporters inside and during the cross, people that s jurors tend to pull back a little bit and i got to believe if youre a juror and youve given up all this time in your life, you got to be pissed when you see a witness behaving this way when you see the defendant with his eyes closed. Its got to work psychological are you better than me that you dont think you should be here . I think thats just something that will be an underlying bedrock in the case here. I mean, back to judge merchan. I mean, take me inside what built up to this explosive moment. It seems like all its not just today, but theres just moments where hes growing increasingly frustrated, and one of the things is just even exhibits coming in, they havent even agreed that certain exhibits can come in, so theyve got to adjudicate each one as it comes in and there was just another flash point over the photo that you showed of donald trump and Keith Schiller and that was an important photo because it happened just minutes before that Michael Cohen call to Keith Schiller that weve heard so much about. And there is just a lot of back and forth with the two sides today about that and they were going to have to bring somebody up from washington at cspan to verify that the integrity of the photo and merchan was growing increasingly frustrated with both sighs, but it was he finally managed to get it to a point where i was like, well played because he got them to agree to get it in but hes getting tired of this. One of his again, im reading it, youre listening to it. One of his either concerns or frustrations or aims seems to be to try to keep some flow so that in the period between Closing Arguments and the jury having to deliberate theres not some gaping, you know, Holiday Weekend and so some of his exasperation was on the timing of exhibits and witnesses so all that i think going we dont know whats in his mind but thinking do they want to start deliberations on thursday and then gone friday. Because one of the jurors has a flight at 1 40 in the afternoon on friday, and then let that hang out all weekend over a long weekend and then have them come back tuesday. So hes trying to time this closing start next week and we can get it under way in an orderly manner but thats sort of youre seeing i thought todays flash point about the photo was just another example and hes cross. We try to rationalize and the brains adaptive mechanisms try to shove trump into a funnel where things make sense. I mean, maybe costello wasnt meant to make sense. Maybe costello was just sort of like a Lightning Bolt meant to do exactly what he did. Think about what trump showed up with today. Its oh, i have a list. Chuck zito. Exhells angel did prison time. Bernie kerik who also did prison time. Boris, the attorney, matt gaetz whos been on the ethics investigation. Hes trying to point out this will be thug nation. Were outlaws. Outlaws are above the law. Chuck zito in particular. A hells angel, a thug, a thug he plays thugs in movies, as well. Everything about them is, no, were above it. Were the outlaws here and i think if youre a jury, im not saying the jury knows who is standing in front or not but i dont think that plays. Today was the first day i was really aware of all of those people in the courtroom. Like, other days people have come in, but it was just a wall of characters today, and the jury, theyre seeing them flow in and out and some of them are recognizable when they come in, theyre national figure, Speaker Of The House. But today it was really it was different. It was different today. There were so many of them, and they were they werent disruptive but they were bordering on it. There was a break and they all leave together and all come back in. Many of them are on their phones right i can see donald trump at the Defense Table and then the next row is just this, like, wall of them and half of them are on their phones. A wall of men. Theyre all half of them on on their phones at one point. I was quite it was very noticeable. Matching outfits. Kind of scary its dystopian. You just kind of you fast forward and go, thats the government. Theres something very handmaids tale here going on that is frightening. Why bring exfelons. Bring your exfelon to court day. While youre trying to impugn the credibility of a guy that went to jail on your behalf. Are they doing it because todd blanche thinks it works or making trump feel good . Is it a legal tactic or political. Political, political. This is not a legal tactic. You know, in the courtroom, that might be something that donald trump thinks would have an effect on the jury, certainly its not going to have any effect on the judge, but i think do you think hes scaring them . As a legal mind whats going through his mind with that handpicked group. Well, i mean i think as a political matter you have this sense of fealty and power. In other words, this is showing that even as a defendant, he is able to still have an iron grip on whats left of the Republican Party or whats now the Republican Party. But from a legal perspective, you know, better to figure out how to have your family show up, you know, that you know, again, the jurors are not supposed to think about that but that if you were thinking about what might affect a juror, you know, having Family Members there is normal. I can im not sure i can even think of a trial where there isnt a family member, you know, and usually, you know, in the prosecution side, you feel bad. I mean, you know, they didnt they didnt do anything, theyre not on trial and, you know, theyre sitting through very difficult testimony, but usually theyre there out of loyalty and love and there was Something Else going on, showing you a grip on the Republican Party, thats why mike johnson is there and that cast of characters. Showing up with imprisoned criminal, particularly hells angel who is an enforcer, who would be, you know, a muscle man, are they trying to scare Something Else viscerally and primal is going on. Ive said this but im in a legal lane so im not great in sort of political analysis but i keep on saying you sell yourself too short. He is running as an outlaw. Correct and told his base the thing about covering trump in 24 thats so different from 20 and 16. Its all out. We live and die by your scoops but its all out of the, you know, out of the steve bannon mind and out of trumps mouth from the podium. The announcement in waco to these people being by his side to ill pardon all the january 6th defendants. Vaughn, is there any discernible difference in terms of this group today from Speaker Of The House day . It is getting increasingly when they come out for their Press Conference, increasingly rowdy here as folks are yelling at them when they come in and start speaking into the microphones. Look, i think that there are four members of congress here today, mary miller from illinois who catch my attention, because, i remember covering her primary, there was in 2022 after redistricting, she was one of those gop members who was in a more competitive district and, you know, there was rodney davis who she was running against who had called for the bipartisan investigation into january 6th and so who did trump choose . He chose mary miller and ever since shes been by his side and wins her election. Shes here defending. Ive covered enough of these types of characters if i may who donald trump has stood in solidarity with, right . I was there when he campaigned for roy moore down in alabama. In nebraska he campaigned for charles herbster, who had been eight different women alleged he had groped them yet held a Campaign Rally for him and down there with Herschel Walker facing a litany of Assault Charges and he went and campaigned for him as well. This is just another chapter in the donald trump decade of supporting otherwise individuals who usually would be ostracized from modern American Politics but donald trump has brought to the forefront and given microphones to be by his side in the middle of his own Criminal Trial. So, i wanted to do two things to button vaughns reporting there. I remember covering all of those political events that trump did with all of those individuals who are exactly as vaughn described them. Whats happening right now. Court is done for the day. The jury is done. Excused for the day. Judge merchan to costello, this individual who was discussed at great length on direct as the one who told Michael Cohen to, quote, sleep well tonight, my friend. You have friends in high places. Merchan said to him, sir, if youre able to answer yes or no answer yes or no. If youre not able to, let miss hoffinger though and shell rephrase the question, so, again, i believe he was a lawyer. He obviously was a lawyer. Thats why hes here acting as though he doesnt know how to answer questions. One more note about what has happened in the last few minutes inside the courthouse, a lot of back and forth about whether costello wanted to land Michael Cohen and the prosecutor was able to establish that, in fact, landing Michael Cohen would have been a very highprofile and good client for costello to nab. Costello does smear Michael Cohen a bit but they do go back and forth and unpack of it on the other side of a break. Dont go anywhere. Cutting millions of blades of grass. Nothing compares to experiencing it for yourself. You just have to get in the seat. Today, at americas beverage companies,. Our bottles might still look the same. But they can be remade in a whole new way. Thanks to you. Were getting bottles back. And weve developed a way to make new ones from 100 recycled plastic. New bottles made using no new plastic. Youll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. And when we get more of them back. We can use less new plastic. See how our bottles are made to be remade. 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The judge, judge juan merchan, for the first time in something that seemed to have been building based on our reporting from Susanne Craig and others erupted in exasperation is the most accurate way to describe what happened today clearing the jury from the courthouse and admonishing the defenses only witness, Robert Costello, an attorney working for Rudy Giuliani, tried to land Michael Cohen, told him to, quote, sleep easy and assured him he had friends in high places. What did the defense get that was Worth Enraging judge merchan . Well, im not going to answer the was it worth it yet until, lets see how the rest of weve started on cross. There will be more cross tomorrow but what did they get that will that theyre going to say was helpful to them . Because i dont think at the end of the day were going to think it was worth it. But what they got was that on the right after the search the searches were done on Michael Cohens phone, hotel, et cetera, that he met with costello and he said trump did not know about the Stormy Daniels payments and he has costello has very colorful language, he said, i swear to god, you know, and he repeated that. And then the second thing they got was costello saying to Michael Cohen, you know, youre not really the subject of this, essentially if you could give up trump this whole thing would go away in a week. God knows how by the way, just as someone who last been a Defense Lawyer and a prosecutor, well, that didnt happen and it wouldnt happen and, by the way, it wasnt just the Southern District, it was also the Mueller Investigation, there were two criminal cases and, no, it wouldnt go away in a week and no one says i would say maybe a bad lawyer says that but thats just not credible to me. But anyway, those are the two things to say he did not know and he had a motive to sort of fabricate because if you had you could use him as your get out of jail free card. And the prosecution had already entered into evidence on direct that cohen in cohens testimony said that because he didnt trust costello not to tell rudy and for it not to get back to trump. He was still very much in the family. Right, according to Michael Cohen, he was very concerned that all this information was going back to rudy and everybody else, so he was sort of keeping, i think he was actually leading costello to believe this. He didnt want to tell costello. So its a bit of a he said she said. I was debating on the weekend thinking about, because we heard there was going to be potentially one or two defense witnesses, and i thought after friday that they would call him. I was sort of leaning in that direction that they were going to. Because i think im trying to look at it a little bit from their perspective about how they think its going and the punches that they feel theyve landed. I think that they felt that they really did damage to Michael Cohen on that call and Michael Cohen was caught off guard about somebody pranking him and that was really the reason for the call. You know, you could have made the call and could have been about the pranks and about the hush money payment, but the way that michael handled himself on the stand on that, i believe he would say he wasnt he was confused about it and i think that they landed something there and they were they had momentum and they wanted to have somebody else come in and impeach Michael Cohens credibility because it is all about that. You know, Michael Cohen is the link. He is incredibly important to the prosecution, because he can attest to so many meetings that no one else was in. And i think its not that if you i think you cannot believe him but think hes telling the truth on some things but the more he can impeach his credible the better it is from their perspective and brought a lot of things up this morning that continue to impeach his credibility including an admission by Michael Cohen on the stand that he stole 30,000 from the trump organization. I thought that was not a good fact for michael and also just looking at his motive and how much money hes making from the podcasts and, you know, it doesnt speak to like hes lost his law license because of all of this but they spent the morning building this case up. Thats what theyve got, so theyve got to discredit Michael Cohen to the point where the jury doesnt believe him, and the other thing i thought they did, just it was effective this morning was just cast some doubt about the checks. Some of them were from Donald Trumps account and some of them were from a Trust Account that eric and don junior signed off on, so they were questioning did he know . Did donald trump know about any of it . Did he know about some of them and they were sort of saying, maybe don junior, eric or Allen Weisselberg signed off on some and donald trump didnt know and it could be theres 34 counts here that some of them come back guilty that they were guilty on some of them but not all of them and i think that was part of the strategy on their part on that point. I mean, donny, we wont know till its over what landed with the jury and what didnt, and if Michael Cohen can be undone. If all 19 days could be undone i think it was the 20th day, thursday, after todd blanche bombs on his first day, right, crossing Michael Cohen after three days of direct, if it could be undone with one question, that one day and then that creates this Snowball Effect that he followed up on today then they probably didnt have a very good case. You would have to believe then you would have to believe that david pecker and hope hicks and westerhouse and Keith Davidson were all in an it. The moment he made the room crack up, not just the jury, he said, is it better for you if trump is convicted or not. Probably better if hes not because then im still out there banging on him. Thats true. Its like the idea that say it again and because ive watched Michael Interact with a lot of people over the years, and some people who are fans and some people who are not fans, and he has this he has all those rough edges and all the lies and all this, but theres something compelling about him at the same time. You kind of believe it, warts and all so i dont think by the way, hes lied in front of congress. Hes a character. Somebody who would be in a mob movie as a fixer, it doesnt mean you dont believe his story and the fact that out of 25 hours on the stand there was one moment where he got confused where they cleaned it up afterwards, i dont think particularly with all the corroboration thats on there and also have to believe that who is going to pay money on their own for a rich person . This person right. The person that didnt have the sex and wasnt running for president. Yeah, you have to kind of defy all logic, so, andrew, you were talking about, a Defense Lawyers job is look at these pretty these pretty little whistles over here. Come on. Look at the big picture. Its there. And we dont know. Again. Jurors might or might not it might be enough to have all these its not a zero sum game. This is what i used to argue for. When she says it was really effective to share that he stole 30,000 or 60,000 from the trump organization. When i was a prosecutor i used to say and whats the evidence of that . The evidence of that is Michael Cohen. One witness telling you that. And when he tells you something bad you should believe it. But when he says something about donald trump you should not believe it. And thats like really inconsistent. If hes saying bad things about himself, its the same witness. Hes telling you bad things about donald trump. We have to sneak in a break. The idea too that you cant talk about two things in a minute and 30. I dont remember the last time i had a conversation with my husband longer than 30 seconds. About 11 things. We dont know. We dont know if the jurors are long talkers or not. Were going to sneak in another break. Well all be right back. Another break. Well all be right back. These days everyone is staring at screens, scanning the news, and watching their spending. Good vision is more important than ever, but so especially now is saving. Thats why americas best includes a free eye exam when you buy two pairs of glasses for just 79. 95, thats a savings of at least sixty nine bucks. Two pairs for 79. 95. Includes a free exam. Thats not just a better deal, its americas best. Book an exam online today at americas best. Com. Millions of children are fighting to survive ann, youre on mute. Due to inequality, conflict, poverty and the climate crisis. Save the children® is working alongside communities to provide a better life for children. And theres a way you can help. 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Indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. Visit indeed. Com hire so he can turn around and face todd blanche as he makes his argument. Quote, theres no way the court should let this case go to the jury relying on mr. Cohens testimony. Hows this landing with the judge . Right. This is all part of what is essentially a motion for dismissal of the trial here. This is his attorney todd blanche making the case to judge merchan that he should be the one to toss out this case and dismiss it right here on the spot and not allow it to go to a jury, making the case it almost sounds like a Closing Argument that blanche is making. This is without the jury in the room. Hes making the case there was no intent to defraud anybody, donald trump had no intent to falsify any Business Records and that Michael Cohen is not a credible witness and that without Michael Cohen that there is no case. The prosecution is currently pushing back on this motion to dismiss. To note, judge merchan seemed a little bit skeptical here in response to todd blanches motion, saying, do you think hes going to fool 12 new yorkers . I love that. I feel like thats going to find its way onto a tshirt tomorrow to a counterprotest to the red tie brigade. Whats going on right now we should tell our viewers is what happens at the end of most days. The defense argues to have the whole thing thrown out. Does that ever happen . Rarely. I mean, when i say rarely, i mean, really rare. The defense at the end of the government case makes essentially a judgment a motion to have it taken out of the hands of the jury for insufficient evidence that no reasonable jury could find guilt. Most judges, if they have even if they have some question will still let it go to the jury and reserve decision. Most of the time this is pro forma because its a fact issue and thats what the jurys for and judge merchan basically said that. You think that Michael Cohen that they shouldnt even be allowed to assess his credibility . I mean, of course and the prosecutors we should point out to our viewers, prosecutors were fighting just as aggressively, saying that the record supports all of the evidence. This will be denied. Regardless where youre coming out on this trial, where you think its going to go, whether you think its going to affect his presidency, you want to see what the donald Trump Presidency looks like look at that image of those guys outside the courthouse. Thats our future. Absolutely. And look at the way this is being argued. Not on the facts but on bullying tactics. And im sure theres some of it thats slightly normal but as with every trump story theres a lot of it thats not normal. None of this is normal, folks. Andrew, sue, donny and Vaughn Hillyard, thank you so much for getting us through this hour. Theres a whole other hour that hasnt even started yet. We have much, much more on this dramatic day of Breaking News in the first ever Criminal Trial of an american expresident. The one and only George Stephanopoulos will join our coverage as well. A quick break for us. Well be right back. Well a quick break for us well be right back. Thats great. I know, ive bee telling everyone. Baby liberty. Oh baby liberty. How many people did you tell . Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. If you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. New parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. Clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. A new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. Known as a loving parent. Known for lessons that matter. Known for being a free spirit. No one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. Keytruda is known to treat cancer, fdaapproved for 17 types of cancer. One of those cancers is advanced nonsquamous, nonsmall cell lung cancer, where keytruda is approved to be used with certain chemotherapies as your first treatment if you do not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene. Keytruda can cause your Immune System to attack healthy parts of your body during or after treatment. This may be severe and lead to death. See your doctor right away if you have cough, shortness of breath, chest pain, diarrhea, severe stomach pain, severe nausea or vomiting, headache, light sensitivity, eye problems, irregular heartbeat, extreme tiredness, constipation, dizziness or fainting, changes in appetite, thirst, or urine, confusion, memory problems, muscle pain or weakness, fever, rash, itching, or flushing. There may be other side effects. Tell your doctor about all your medical conditions, including Immune System problems, if youve had or plan to have an organ, tissue, or stem cell transplant, received Chest Radiation or have a nervous system problem. Depending on the type of cancer, keytruda may be used alone or in combination with other treatments, and is also being studied in hundreds of Clinical Trials exploring ways to treat even more types of cancer. Its tru. Keytruda from merck. See all the types of Cancer Keytruda is known for at keytruda. Com and ask your doctor if keytruda could be hi again, everybody. Its now 5 00 in new york. A fiery, testy, dramatic last hour in court in Donald Trumps criminal election interference hush money trial. Robert costello. Hes a witness called to the stand today by the defense. He was responding to objections that were sustained by judge merchan in such an objectionable way that judge juan merchan, who has been a portrait of calm, had to momentarily clear the courtroom of both the jury and the press for the sole purpose of Admonishing Costello and regaining order inside his courtroom. Quote, id like to discuss proper decorum, he said, in my courtroom before everyone was cleared out. Quote, you dont give me side eye you and you dont really your eyes, end quote. Robert costello is the lawyer who once advised Michael Cohen. Cohen never hires him but theyre talking for long enough to have established attorneyclient privilege. Costello, according to Michael Cohens direct testimony, formed a back channel to donald trump when cohen was the target of a federal Criminal Investigation in 2018. Costello claims that Michael Cohen told him that trip didnt know about the Hush Money Payments to Stormy Daniels. That is something that Michael Cohen established in his direct testimony and cohen testified to the reason for that being he didnt trust him not to tell Rudy Giuliani. New york times reports from cohens testimony this, quote, when Questioning Cohen last week the prosecution spotlighted his communications with mr. Costello. Their emails and calls mr. Cohen said left him with the impression mr. Costello was doing trumps bidding, delivering implicit instructions to in the former fixers words, quote, stay in the fold, dont flip, dont speak. Costello testified today that he never pressured cohen to do anything. And he slammed the expresident s former fixer, calling him a, quote, drama queen. Judge juan merchan grew frustrated with costello again, saying during his crossexamination this, quote, sir, if youre able to answer yes or no, answer yes or no. If youre not able to answer yes or no, let miss hoffinger no and she will rephrase. As we reported in the last few minutes, trump attorney todd blanche again, as he does most days, is urging the judge to dismiss the entire case, saying Michael Cohens testimony should not be allowed to be considered by the jury. The judge in his response, quote, do you think that hes going to fool 12 new yorkers . End quote. A Mike Drop Moment for anyone who just happens to be a new yorker. The judge saying he will reserve his decision. And court is now adjourned for the day. Wow. Its where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Outside the courthouse for us once again nbc news correspondent Yasmin Vossoughian is back with us. With us at the table former federal prosecutor former sdny Criminal Division deputy chief msnbc legal analyst christie greenbergs back. Senior Executive Editor for Bloomberg Opinion and msnbc political analyst tim obriens back with us. And making his deadline debut former manhattan prosecutor, a familiar face to msnbc viewers Jeremy Saline is here. Jeremy, ill start with you. Your thoughts on whats transpired. Im not listening to. Im reading transcripts. But its the most dramatic merchan has been on the page. And this is replanned, any witness i would have and i would call, and ive called many in that courthouse, im telling them to win it with respect, win it with the right answers, look the jury in the eye, look the judge in the eye, look everyone in the eye and be cool, calm collected because if you have no credibility and youre bombastic and you seem like youre fighting back too much then youve dehumanized yourself, youve changed any kind of empathy or credibility you may have. This is really playing to donald trump and certainly in my view not the right approach to say im a credible guy, dont believe Michael Cohen. So why go in to rebut basically a piece of cohens testimony if youre going to alienate the judge and the jury . Because on its face you need to do that. You need to challenge it and say listen, Michael Cohen told me i think he said 10 or 12 times that the president didnt know anything about it, not the president then but donald trump didnt know anything about this coverup hush money situation. But you still need to get that in. Thats worth the effort. But why hes behaving this way, it just doesnt add up to me. I think its the wrong approach. Its the wrong approach. We may have different views on strategy. Its the wrong approach. Have you seen judge merchan react like this up to this point . No. He has shown such restraint. Hes been so evenhanded the entire time. But this is beyond the pale. You have somebody whos i mean, ive seen witnesses act up on the stand but not you dont typically see that from lawyers who are witnesses. And this is a lawyer who held my old job at the Southern District of new york. He was the deputy chief of the Criminal Division. You would expect that he would have respect for the court. You want to take on Michael Cohen and attack his credibility, thats why he was put on, thats fine. But you dont show disrespect to the judge. Because the jury sees that. Michael cohen, everybody was concerned going into his testimony about how he would hold up, what his demeanor would be. He was incredibly respectful. He was composed. Yes, sir, yes, maam. I mean, he really did not get rattled. And you now just saw the complete opposite from this witness, who i think really must have turned jurors off because they tend to jurors tend to like the judge and this judge in particular has been very kind i think to the jury and respectful of their time, respectful of when they needed time off to work. And when you are giving sideeye to the judge, when youre scoffing and making comments, jurors, particularly the two lawyers on this jury know thats not how its supposed to work. It is as far as i can tell a game changer for this case because really were not talking about any issues about Michael Cohens credibility anymore. Now were all talking about Bob Costellos index. He is a defense witness. This is going to be held against the defense. You know, yasmin, its trumps right to put on a defense. Its trumps right to put on a guy who again, im just reading transcripts. Reads like a grumpy Archie Bunker. But when Archie Bunker turns into a rattlesnake that bites juan merchan it seems that all bets are off. Kristis exactly right. Were now talking about Robert Costellos credibility. Right . And i think that blanche and trumps defense team, they were questioning as to whether or not they were even going to put Robert Costello on the stand from the very getgo. If we think back, nicolle, to last week, our own tom winter reached out to Robert Costello. He said he was ready willing and able to testify. He said that publicly as well in the media. This guy was gunning to take the stand. And to speak to what kristy was just talking about, i was in the courtroom when Stormy Daniels was testifying on the very first day. And she was admonished numerous times by judge juan merchan inside that court because she was droning on and going off subject, not necessarily answering the questions as succinctly as the judge had wanted. He was getting annoyed with her. And the jury took to that. They read that. And they seemed at some point annoyed with her first day of testimony as well in that moment. And i imagine something similar happened on the stand today as the judge was admonishing Robert Costello as well. An attorney, as kristy rightly points out, on the stand as a witness for the defense. I think its one of the reasons why the defense was so worried and or not necessarily planning for Robert Costello to take the stand from the getgo but then suddenly decided to because of his testimony last week and some of his public statements as well. Whether or not that was a mistake, i think, though, is something theyre probably questioning now. You know, tim, we made the mistake in covering trump as someone who inadvertently blew up norms. He did it on purpose. And i wonder if were making the same mistake in a legal context. Well, i think that is Donald Trumps crew. And i dont think i think everything that happened today was choreographed by their side. I think it blew up in their face possibly in a way they didnt anticipate. But when you think about the fact that bob costello testified before the House Committee on the weaponization of government i dont think thats its actual name. Yes, it is. I thought it was the saep daigs of oh, youre right. Either way, its a ridiculous name. Didnt work out. In our ridiculous era heres a committee with a ridiculous name with someone they bring in the last day of cross on Michael Cohen into a Congressional Committee and he says basically what he said today in court. His firm like this is such a new york moment. Right . The Managing Partner in Bob Costellos firm is sid davydov. Sid davydov was a fixer in bronx politics in the ed koch era. And the scandal that brought ed koch down was prosecuted by Rudy Giuliani. And these guys are now all hanging together and they know they are this certain kind of i think new york fixture where they know how the system works, they watch each others back and they appear for one another when they need to. Thats clearly the cloth that rudy is cut out of. And thats who i think bob costello is. Judge Justice Merchan gave very clear guidance to the defense for why he was going to allow costello to be admitted as a witness. And he wanted it to be specific and narrow. And i think he probably sat there once costello sat down and was casual with his responses to the prosecutors, on the borderline of being flip and disrespectful, that he thought oh my god, i gave these people an inch and now theyre taking a mile, which is of course what they intended to do. And so he has to clear the courtroom. Im very interested to see what he said to them because it also didnt change their behavior. They came right back in and did it again and then did it again. I think he cleared the courtroom three times. Twice. Im not sure. And its a reminder, as you said, of the complete disregard this collection of people have for the rule of law, process and institutions that all of us rely on for Civic Society to function properly. And this is yet another demonstration how theyre willing to just drop a bomb. I think the other thing thats going on is most of this trial until Michael Cohen appeared was pretty surgical. I mean, stormy wasnt Stormy Daniels testimony wasnt surgical. But the prosecution was moving through witnesses and i think the defense saw Michael Cohen as a hail mary almost. They needed to demolish him. And i dont think they felt they had. And i think thats why you now have bob costello in here to try to further prejudice the jury against the prosecution. But i dont think it worked. Let me just tell our viewers what were doing right now. We are monitoring trump as we do every day so you dont have to. If he makes any news that we can corroborate as being truthful well tell you about it. Right now hes reading from a notepad as he sometimes does. Actually, sometimes he waves around papers. Today it seems to be written on a notepad. Hes wearing blue. His brigade is wearing red. Were not sure if thats planned but well try to run that down for you as well since the outfit seems to be the point. I want to ask you, jeremy, about the substance of whats in the record in front of the jury when it comes to this defense witness, mr. Costello. What theyve heard on direct from cohen is that it was costello who what the prosecution seemed to put into the record and supported with voluminous emails i think i remember was that costello very much wanted to represent cohen and cohen had sort of a spidey sense, i know its not a legal term but a spidey sense that maybe hes not going to be all for me, that he was like a cutout basically through rudy to trump trying to get him to stay quiet. As they successfully did with paul manafort. You go back to 18 they were running this operation with people other than cohen. Papadopoulos in 18, manafort, gates. Gates and cohen in totally different Criminal Investigations gates with the Mueller Probe and cohen with sdnys election interference case, they cooperate. And at the time trump went on fox news i think and said i hate flippers, ive always hated them. Always hated their guts. Never mind that now he was president of the United States and on an org chart sat atop doj. Was there latitude for the prosecution and do you think well see them go back to the original direct testimony about costellos role as a cutout basically implicitly promising pardons . I think thats a real possibility. But you know, i think frankly the quicker this ends the better off everyone is. Theres diminishing returns for everybody. Costello as we just said before didnt do himself any favors and certainly didnt do donald trump any favors. The more theyre speaking the more confusing it gets. Arguably is that good for the defense . If people came out and came across as honest and credible i think it would be beneficial. Here i simply dont think thats the case. And i think its also sort of a preview, if you will, that if costello was this way, and im not really answering your question, im sorry, because things are evolving in the moment. But if costello was this way on the stand now, can you fathom how donald trump would be, how bombastic he would be . So this was the opportunity, really was, and it wasnt a paralegal to put in some documents in terms of phone calls. This was the opportunity to corroborate their defense, even though they dont have to do so. Its not their burden. And to go after Michael Cohen and tear him down. And Michael Cohen, who was respectful. Michael cohen who answered fairly cleanly. And they failed to do so. And in terms of anyone cooperating, you know, you look at who donald trump surrounded himself with. People who cooperate, they get their own behinds safe and clear from the trouble that he allegedly created. And the people who do what they need to do, if thats skirting the law, because thats what the boss wants. Its now coming home to roost and all these characters no matter what side theyre falling on seem to have that same trait, and its telling, and where its coming from is the boss, donald trump. And with all that being very much part of the narrative, right . Of what the the story the prosecution has told since his first witness david pecker who said the boss and i, the two principals pecker and cohen, theyre the pro principals that hatched the whole plan to catch and kill. And then cohen from the first witness all the way through frankly to his own direct testimony, hes the staffer. Right . Hes going back and forth. His own banker says he cant do anything because he cant reach trump. Hes got keith i mean, everyone and its not really flattering, right . Theyre not flattering depictions. But everyone describes him as having a leash this long from donald trump. He cant do anything without getting trumps permission. And not having the budget. He has to run every expense by donald trump. What on the sort of the volume of evidence that supports all that, what did they achieve in their cross of Michael Cohen that aided any of that evidence . Well, you know, you have to do it brick by brick. Youre not going to weve heard the people use the term knockout punch, down goes frazier, going after these guys. That just doesnt happen in the real world. So its brick by brick. Jab by jab. That hes just a dishonest person. And i think they did a good job to confront him on some of his credibility issues about things he changed his story about. He lied to his wife. He lied to the judge when he pleaded guilty. But in fact it was a tax fraud case. Youre a lying convicted felon. I think they were a little long in the tooth and they kept on hitting the same points. At some point you get i say a Sleeping Yury could be an acquitting jury. A Sleeping Jury could be a convicting jury you never know. At some point you lose your jury. I think they went too long and this is to my Point Of Diminishing Returns but i do think in substance they did a decent job with Michael Cohen. Is it decent enough . Im not quite sure it is because you surround yourself with the people who have the dirty hands, those are the people who know whats going on. Theres no cooperator whos an angel. Theres no cooperator whos not involved. Theres no cooperator who doesnt have baggage. Sammy the bull, you know, henry hill for goodfellas lovers. These were people who were bad dudes who were there and testifying and corroborating because they were in the thick of it. You get what you get. In the they can of it is a good way to describe Michael Cohen. Yasmin, i noted on redirect it was the opposite strategy. It was short. It was concise. It was just what was necessary. Your sense of how that went today. Yeah. I agree. I think with redirect on Michael Cohen specifically they wanted to hone in on that october 24th date. Right . You and i have been talking about this for the last couple of days since it came up. You think back to last thursday. Right . It was that moment in which todd blanche felt as if, the defense felt as if they had this win. It was the october 24th phone call around 8 0 2 p. M. In which Michael Cohen reached out to Keith Schiller to talk to donald trump. He testified that conversation was about 90 seconds or so long and in that conversation donald trump said the goahead, right . Pay off Stormy Daniels. And it was a moment in which todd blanche kind of had a win for the defense back on thursday. He said how is it essentially a90 seconds or so . And im paraphrasing, nicolle. That you can talk about that and also talk about this person who was harassing you on your phone, this 14yearold who was harassing you on your phone and you sent Text Messages relaying this phone number of this individual asking for Keith Schillers help. Yet you testified to the fact that that phone call was when donald trump told you to go ahead and send the money to Keith Davidson just two days later. Well, on redirect we knew they were going to try to clean this up. Cleanup on aisle 6 for the prosecution. And they did it by the admissibility of a photo. And there was some back and forth as to the admissibility of a video from cspan showing donald trump and Keith Schiller walking off the stage together at a campaign event. And instead of allowing this video in for evidence they allowed this still photo of this moment, kind of establishing the fact that in fact and youre looking at the photo now on your screens. The two of them were together at that very moment that Michael Cohen testifies to the fact he then a few minutes later called Keith Schiller to speak to dobld donald trump to get the goahead, the green light to pay off Stormy Daniels. It was in my sense a very effective way in cleaning up especially that crossexamination from todd blanche on Michael Cohen which i think encapsulated the redirect. The redirect was very clean. It was very short and essentially kind of driving home the same points. Did you do this on behalf of donald trump . Were these reimbursement checks as well . Driving home those same points but trying to clean up also some of the points in which they felt like Michael Cohen fell short during crossexamination, nicolle. All right. No ones going anywhere. Theres much more to get to on this 19th day of the disgraced expresident s election interference hush money Criminal Trial. Well be back in just a minute. Plus, how our politics came to this right now today. Well be joined here on set by my friend longtime journalist former white house senior staffer George Stephanopoulos. His new book is called the Situation Room The Inside Story of president s in crisis. Its fantastic. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. K. Dont go anywhere. 8 pounds on g. Changing your habits is the only way that gets you to lose the weight. And golo is the plan thats going to help you do that. Just take the first step, go to golo. Com. Craig here pays too much for verizon wireless. So he sublet half his real estate office. [ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. Megs moving company uses tmobile. So she scaled down her fleet to save money. And dons paying so much for at t, hes been waiting to update his equipment theres a smarter way to save. Comcast business mobile. You could save up to 70 on your wireless bill. So you dont have to compromise. Powering smarter savings. Powering possibilities. We are all back with yasmin, kristy, tim and jeremy. I have to say that some days in the breaks we kind of check our notes, check our phones. People are still digesting this incredibly dramatic and in some ways it may not be the legal climax but it is the emotional and dramatic climax of the first ever Criminal Trial of an american expresident to date. Theres some analysis that costello may have really blown trumps i didnt do it thing. They may have really created relative to cohen a real thug, a real example of someone who disrespects the process and the judge and by extension the jurors. I want to come back to what yasmin was reporting on in terms of this surgical redirect that the state did with Michael Cohen to deal with what was widely believed to be one blow that was potentially decisive that was landed on Michael Cohen about this april 24th phone call. Now, notably, there was nothing challenged about the calls on the 26th, which is when the money is actually transferred to Stormy Daniels. But on the 24th this is this is the redirect today about the phone calls with trump about the payment to Stormy Daniels. Quote, were some of the conversations by phone . Yes. Were some of them longer . Yes. Were some of them shorter than the minute 30 . Yes. Approximately how many conversations did you have with mr. Trump about the Stormy Daniels matter during this time . Answer, more than 20. Hoffinger then asked michael about how and why he reviewed the Phone Records to help refresh his memory about all those 20 calls. How did reviewing the documents, which have already been entered into evidence for this jury, assist you . Michael cohen, it helped to refresh my memory. Did you recall the general sum and substance of those conversations you had with mr. Trump . Michael cohen, yes. Do you have any doubt that you had conversations with mr. Trump that you should work out payments to Stormy Daniels with Allen Weisselberg . Michael cohen, no doubt. Do you have any doubt that you did work it out with mr. Weisselberg . Mike many cohen no, doubt. Do you have any doubt that mr. Trump gave you the final signoff to pay Stormy Daniels . Michael cohen, i have no doubt. Would you have made that payment without mr. Trumps signoff . No. On this matter of the 24th Phone Call Being muddied up, one way that he succeeded was in sort of convincing us in the moment that you couldnt talk about two things in 90 seconds. I may be in the minority, but i checked my i dont have a call in my log longer than about 2 1 2 minutes. Im a working mom. So most people may be kinder than me and stay on the phone longer. But i dont talk about less than 11 things in those 2 1 2 minutes usually. Why was that so damaging and do you think they successfully got this part of the case back on track . She 100 got it back on track. Her redirect was phenomenal. I mean, it was as yasmin said surgical. We had just been treated to an entire morning of kind of more long meandering questions on cross where youre not even sure where the line of questioning is going. You can kind of guess but he doesnt really close the loop. And then came Susan Hoffinger point by point. You had no doubt, no doubt. No, i didnt. No, i didnt. No doubt. And it was just so important because he was so certain. You can talk about multiple things at once. She brought that out. It was one question but it was such an important question. And again, i think that you as jurors you have to make it clear to them just how long 90 seconds can be. Like if i was in that position, if i was the prosecutor during the summation, i would take a chunk of 90 seconds at some point and talk about heres all the things that he said they talked about during those 90 seconds. It would not take 90 seconds to get there. And just make it clear just how long that can be. I also thought that, you know, this attempt to say, well, he had a lot going on so he wouldnt remember, these are things you remember. Theres significant details you will remember from eight years ago and then there are insignificant details from yesterday that you wont remember talking to somebody about. These mattered. Youve been talk forget less than 60 seconds. And it feels like forever. The prosecutors also introduced a photo of Keith Schiller and donald trump together on october 24th, 2016. And the defense fought allowing it to be entered. There was a lot of back and forth about whether or not it was hearsay. They reached a compromise. And it got entered. So both of those men are in the same place on the same day and theres no reason Michael Cohen couldnt have spoken to both of them on the same day. And im still amazed that this is even like an evidentiary windfall because i dont know how much the jury cared about the idea that there was this one phone call about a different subject and that might have precluded any other conversations. It just seemed a very slender read to build the idea that Michael Cohen was misrepresenting his communication with donald trump. It wasnt about the evidence. Right . It was about dirtying up Michael Cohen. Right . Im sorry, go ahead. No, youre both right. I dont know that this dirtied him up. I do think before Michael Cohen got on the witness stand you had a voluminous amount of documentation and a series of witnesses that created a fact pattern that transcends Michael Cohens testimony. And i think that they were there to try to just knock him out but i dont know how much that matters at the end of the day. Part of their goal was to make this not about falsifying Business Records. Its to make it about Stormy Daniels extortionist, blackmail or sex torsionist whatever you want to call her. And number two and much more important is you have another guy who just cant be trusted, whos dishonest and out for revenge and to make a buck. This has nothing to do with falsifying Business Records, i didnt know it was going on. Whether it holds water, well find out soon enough. But that was their objective. And just very, very briefly were talking off camera about that 90 seconds. I was sharing i had a trial against the hells angels which there was someone from the hells angels there today and at one point there was an issue about a cooperating witness seeing another individual strike the complainant in the head with a bat. And it was for 90 seconds. And in the middle of that summation i stopped for 30 seconds. People looked and looked and looked whats going on. 30 seconds is an eternity. Next time youre in traffic for a minute and a half think of who you could call and do on the phone in that minute and a half. Or youre stuck on the Subway Underground and youre like i need to get down to union square. Think how long a minute and a half is. Thats a decade. I have 11 followup questions. One, i always fail those workouts that are like three minutes a day. I cant get through like the first eight seconds of a plank. Believe me, i know how long 30 seconds is. Just dont do them. Correct. I dont do them because 30 seconds is too long. I want to ask you why were the hells angels there today . Because he is pulling in anyone who is loyal to him. And i use the term i was on with ari melburn and its a harsh term but its a bunch of bootlickers. They want the spoils if donald trump becomes president. We had the governor of one of the dakotas, whichever he was from, come in to besmirch the new york city and new york state judicial process. What are you doing here . Deal with your neighboring governor who shot her dog and goat. Dont come here and tell us how to run this courthouse. We have a judge whos doing a good job. Politically i get it. I totally get it. You want to get a piece of the pie, your own little fiefdom. But in that court we all would agree hes innocent until proven guilty. Anyone who is so warped with their glasses blue or red doesnt deserve and shouldnt be part of that process. We should presume that blanche and the team got rid of those they thought would not be fair. Despite what you may hear on certain news outlets. But outside of the courtroom and physically in the courtroom with gates, theyre doing themselves a disservice, at least in that courthouse, because a jury sees that and theyre saying who are these people, why are they here, its just going to make them more intimidated and anxious. Disservice inside and outside. Yasmin, i understand from other news outlets that trumps still talking. What is going on outside the courthouse and why are they all wearing red ties . We dont really know why theyre all wearing red ties but it does seem to be a uniform. By the way, every time i speak to any of these kind of quote unquote surrogates, the people that show up on behalf of the former president , they say theyre here on their own volition. That being said, they always remain in places when it is that trumps team remain in places. If they were actually just here as the general public or on their own volition, they would not necessarily be in the first two rows of the courtroom as only trumps team is allowed in those first two rows of the courtroom. Right . So there are reserved seats for trumps team and that is where all of these individuals sit despite the fact they are making this claim that they are here as members of the public. I will say, nicolle, they held this Press Conference in the courtyard just in front of me about 50 yards away. And it was the biggest circus i had seen throughout my entire time of covering this trial so far from the beginning today. I couldnt even make out really what they were saying. They were kind of repeating the same things over and over again, right . This is a sham. This wouldnt have happened to anybody else. Just because hes run forget running for reelection, so on and so forth. It was a total circus. Also there were protesters in this court in front of me, protesters that were here against the former president of the United States, calling for justice, saying nobodys above the law. And they were shouting at all these lawmakers who were holding this Press Conference in the middle of the day while the trial was ongoing behind me. The former president in that hallway every time he walks out of the last couple of days because of his gag order, of course, nicolle, he essentially just reads from his twitter feed. But reads essentially things that have been reposted on his twitter feed. People that are saying this is a sham trial. For instance, he read a comment made by Alan Dershowitz a couple of days ago and said well, hes a democrat and he shouldnt be a democrat but i agree with his opinion on this. And then by the way, nicolle, guess who showed up in the courtroom today, as we all know, Alan Dershowitz was sitting in those first two front rows. Thats what hes continuing to do in the hallway outside in the courtroom. And this guy is on the menu. If it sounds good to you, you can order it for president in november. Its insane. Yasmin vossoughian, kristy greenberg, tim obrien, jeremy salland, thank you all so much for starting us off with our coverage of the trial. When we come back, theres a very good chance that donald trump might become running might be might be able to add convicted felon to his Campaign Slogans as he runs for president for a third time. It sounds insane. But here we are. George stephanopoulos will help explain exactly how we as a nation got here. Hell be our guest right here at the table after a very short break. Dont go anywhere. Dont go anyw. vo red hot deal days are here. Only until may 29th. Get a bundle of your choice on us. So youll get a free phone and a smartwatch and a tablet. Yep, all 3 on us only at verizon. Tech does your windshield have a crack . Trust safelite. This customer had auto glass damage, but he was busy working from home. So he scheduled with safelite in just a few clicks. We came to his house. Then we got to work. We replaced his windshield. And installed new wipers to protect his new glass. Customer looks great. Thank you. Tech my pleasure. Vo we come to you for free. Schedule now for Free Mobile Service at safelite. Com. Safelite repair, safelite replace. bell ringing someone needs to customize and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual inaudible sounds elevator doors opening wait, theres an elevator . Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. Until now no american president ial race had been more defined by whats happening in courtrooms than whats happening on the campaign trail. Until now. The scale of the abnormality is so staggering that it can actually become numbing. Its all too easy to fall into reflexive habits, to treat this as a normal campaign where both sides embrace the rule of law, where both sides are dedicated to debate based on facts and the peaceful transfer of power. Im going to play that every day from now to election day. A sobering reminder from someone who knows, someone who worked in and has covered now a number of president ial campaigns. George stephanopoulos. The abnormality that he warns us is on full display today as it has been every day at the courthouse in manhattan where donald trump is facing his first Criminal Trial. As weve discussed, he was again joined by his red tie brigade, individuals there to curry favor with the Presumptive Republican president ial nominee. Todays motley crew of trump allies included maga members of Congress Like andrew clyde, who called january 6th a, quote, normal tourist visit. Kash patel, who worked at the Defense Department under trump. Former new York City Police commissioner bernie kerik, who has served time in prison. And former president of the new york chapter of the motorcycle gang the hells angels, chuck zito. Its just one of the many, many, many ways the expresident has debased our politics. Something stephanopoulos writes about a bit in his new book. He says this, quote, this book examines Crisis Management in the modern presidency. During the Trump Administration the president was the crisis to be managed. Joining our conversation, the coanchor of good morning america, the host of abcs this week, George Stephanopoulos is here. Good to see you. I have to say, your career inspired my, you know, penny in a wishing well that i could do anything like this. I think about you every single day. I think often about the first time we met at a vietnamese restaurant when you were working for george w. Bush. Seeking your advice. Yes. A long time ago. I still watch you. I watch you every day and i watch you on sundays. And i wonder how you do it. How you keep this idea that you put out there that none of this is normal. Well, i think we have to keep on reminding people of that. We cant allow ourselves to become numb to how stunning what we learn every day is. Its just so easy. You and i both grew up in politics. When i think about the kinds of things that used to knock people out of a race, like Edmund Muskie running for president. He might have had a tear running down his face. Hes gone. And now you have the first president ever and i think you just stop and end it right there. The first president ever whos been indicted and impeached for trying to overturn an election. That should be the beginning and the end of the conversation before you get to Everything Else we talk you can about every day. We talk about the red tie brigade. I think thats one of the most stunning things that has happened over the last couple of years. Youve had people, people who on january 6th talked about being in fear for their lives, people on january 6th say donald trump should have been tried in a court of law who are now endorsing him for president of the United States. And i think that whole team of enablers is whats given a bunch of Republican Voters kind of the permission structure to just fall in line and say this is all okay. How do you deal personally and on the air with the gaslighting . I mean, we know now because of fantastic books and Investigative Journalism that Mitch Mcconnell sees trump the way you and i do. But he has fallen in line. I have a rule for myself. Everybodys got to follow their own conscience and do their jobs in the way they think they should be done. For me if someone who has endorsed donald trump comes on my show i believe they have to account first and foremost for what happened on january 6th and for all of the other things hes being charged. And until you can answer those questions im not going to move on to tax policy or environmental policy or anything. They exist on different planes. One of them is being liable for sexual assault. But they come for you. Theyve targeted you for wanting that question answered. How do you deal with the bullying that happens off the air . You know what . I learned to absorb it. I feel worse for my wife and daughters. I tell them not to read whats online. But i know what i said is accurate. I know what i said is truthful. I have no problem doing that. And if its going to draw some fire that comes with the job. Do you think we should talk about it more . I was swatted. I never said on tv. Some of these tactics are meant to chill theres no question about it. Ive had lots of Different Things happen. I was on the side of that van several years ago where the guy was mailing letter bombs, fbi was at my apartment. I actually there was actually a case where someone is now in jail because of threatening phone calls they were making. They were calling George Stephanopoulos, they were calling my cousin, not me. They didnt know that. But that person is now in jail. You have to be aware. And im when it gets closer to election time im a little bit more aware when im walking down the street and im a little more likely to get yelled at by somebody. A lot of nice things as well, i should not all bad, right . Its not all bad. But you just have to be aware of it and accept, as sad as it is, that it is part of doing the job. Do you think we should theres a story in the New York Times today about Political Violence and about how jamie raskin, similar story, someone is in jail, theres a restraining order should we make i think its our nature and we dont want to be the story. Yeah. Should this be out there more . I dont want to be the story. Im of two minds with that. What i think about more is again going back to the kind of signals being sent by those at the very top. You see it now in Congress Every day, the kind of boorish behavior that has become run of the mill is astonishing to me. Nothing our kids could do in a School Private or public and not be suspended for. Or any ceo or any midlevel job. Theyd never be able to hold down the job if they acted like that. The book is about something we tried to cover intensely for four years and its trump as the National Security threat, that the National Security apparatus had to protect against. And there were little glimpses of it. Mattis quits for cause. The only person that sort of leaves over a National Security issue. Kellys issues with preventing think about your language right there. Little glimpses of it. Right. His secretary of state called him a moron. Mattis says he doesnt even respect the constitution. John kelly says hes the worst person he ever met. Think about that applying to any other president of the United States at any other time. Their chief of staff, their defense secretary, their secretary of state, their National Security adviser are the ones who had the most damning judgments of his competence and character. That is chilling. And hes the nominee for the upcoming election. We could keep going. John bolton refers him to doj because he thinks the u. S. Foreign policy places we didnt even have scandals. Turkey being corrupted. I want to get into the book and i want to ask you about trump as a National Security threat. Tom bossert was one of the people i interviewed for the book. Donald trumps National Security adviser. Also a similar job slightly lower level for president george w. Bush. And he tried to institute normal structures in the government. They just didnt take. He talks about being on a phone line from south korea and telling the president of the United States please dont talk to me about classified information over this phone line. Trump goes on. He talks about walking out of the Situation Room, a meeting with donald trump, whos always complaining about leaks, by the way, walks out of a meeting, sees the president of the United States pick up a phone and call a reporter. Leaker in chief. And his insight on that was interesting. He said donald trump accuses others of leaking because he believes everyone acts the way that he does. The projection. Theres always a projection. Yes. Okay. Were going to dive into the book. I have to sneak in a quick break first. I have to sneak in a quick break first. I brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. Ugh. Here, ill take that. Woo hoo ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. And a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. were so over talking about the pagers. You used to have to carry one. When i was a duty officer at the beginning we had a pager. The duty officer pager. I had a little thing on my belt. We didnt even really have cell phones. It would beep and id go to a pay phone. And call the sit room. Yeah. So the sit room on january 6th, let me read whats in the book. With reports coming in from the secret service and other officials on capitol hill the Situation Room scrambled into action. Things got very chaotic. This is mike stigler, the Situation Room officer. He told you, quote, we went into a continuity of government situation. Stop there. Take in that phrase. Continuity of government situation. That bland bit of bureaucratic jargon masks a deadly serious set of policies and actions. First ordered by president ial eisenhower president eisenhower at the height of the cold war. Cog was designed to ensure the government would still function after disaster such as nuclear war. It involves secret command ken center, the sit room being a critical one, elaborate chains of command, the relocation of congress, and the replacement of executive Branch Officials killed in attacks. It had been activated only once before. When mike told me that on the zoom, i stopped breathing. Think about that. I didnt know that. It was the first time i had heard it. You know, we tried to run it down. And we know that it happened on 9 11 as well, but think about that. He was on the phone with the secret service. He was on the phone with others on capitol hill who were telling him the Vice President s life is in danger. And he tells me the most horrible part of that day is not knowing if pence is going to make it through that day. And theyre planning for an alternate government to be set up. What is the president of the United States doing . We all know what the president of United States was doing. Hes in his study sipping diet cokes sending out a tweet attacking mike pence. Did not call down to the Situation Room once during that insurrection. What is it i mean, you could take any corner, right, on the 18 acre, and he debased it, right . He, you know, from his postcovid i mean, the whole thing. But theres something about the sit room where was always so real. Nothing, even if there were fights going on you got in the sit room because something bad was happening. Something bad was happening. And theyre getting incoming a lot is false, but theyre on the front lines taking this information. Theyve dealt with assassinations. Theyve dealt with attempting assassinations. Theyve dealt with 9 11. Theyve dealt with wars. They had never had to deal with an insurrection inspired by the president himself. And the people in the sit room, mike, one of them, he said it took him years to process what was happening that day. He and his friends who served that day couldnt speak. They had to go to work the next day, but they couldnt speak when they left the white house that day. And they still meet every january 6th. They two to the Lincoln Memorial and raise a glass to the fact that at least the republic stood, the republic did survive that day, but they had to deal with something that is really unimaginable in our times, and now, again, to go back to what we talked about at the beginning, people want to make it seem like it was normal. I think about i mean, obviously, i was in the white house on September 11th when cog was put in place and the pictures you were covering the Bush White House in which i served, talked to my boss every day. I remember, who is that . Its george. And you know, you had all the best information, all the best reporting. We tried to the extent we could talk about what was going on. But the country agreed on the horror of that day, and i dont think anything takes away the pain and im not trying to compare the two tragedies, but in terms of our tellings, our story, theres not a lot of divisiveness around the story we tell about September 11th. I wonder what its like for the men and women who defended the United States capitol and they werent protecting the democrats or republicans, some of them paid with with their jobs, their lives. They were protecting the institutions. I spoke with mike again last week. One of the things that gratified me is that after we talked to him and i showed him on good morning america, he sent me a text in the morning thanking me because he said since hes spoken out several of his colleagues have now felt more able to process and more able to talk about it, able to put it into context. For a long time they felt like they couldnt talk about it, and they couldnt understand what happened. And they didnt necessarily have the support. Theyve found the support among each other. You know, i wonder, if you take the events of waco and you take Oklahoma City and you put some of the characters on the board again. I mean, Merrick Garland prosecutes Oklahoma City, donald trump announces his candidacy in waco. And donald trump is taunting make garland for wanting to hold him accountable for january 6th, how do the pieces fit together in your head . Well, i think theres been a lot of anger in america for a long time, and donald trump has tapped into it. Theres just no question about that. An antiestablishment anger. What surprised me more is what was relatively small considered extreme group has now become the zort inside the Republican Party. I think thats, in some ways, the most important story to figure out and the most story to reeveal. I mean, its the enablers whove made all of this possible. You know, this could have ended in january 2021. There could have been a conviction. That could have been and you have a lot of people, like Mitch Mcconnell, who said, well, were not going to vote for conviction because he should be tried in a court of law. Its not even over yet. Think about this, right now President Trump continues to lie about the election every single day in every single statement and to not promise to accept the results if it doesnt go his way in 2024. Rubio just fell. On meet the press on sunday. What do you do . How do you cover rubio as someone who wont accept the results of an election that hasnt happened . I would stop asking the questions after i got that answer. Im not going to talk to you about anything else. Are you optimistic about the country . Im optimistic about the people. There are a lot of people etrying to do their best for the country, for presidency. Mmhmm. You know, its just an overstatement to say this is the most important election weve seen in our lifetime. It just isnt. And i think you tell me what happens in the election, and ill give you an answer on what i think is going to happen on the day after, because i think its about the rule of law. Its about the constitution. Its about the peaceful transfer of power. Its not about politics. Its not about republican and democrat, its about the bedrock of our democracy. I agree, but i do think theres only one Party Standing for those things. Both sides are not engaged right now right. In the same enterprise. In debates based on fact in the rule of law, in abiding by the constitution and peaceful transfer of power. Those are the most important issues. Youre a Northern Star for us, thank you so much for being here. The books amazing. You have to come back so we can talk about the 41 chapters. I hope to see it on the big screen some day. Everybody should read it. Called the Situation Room The Inside Story of president s in crisis. Available right now. Go buy it, go read it. Quick break for us. Well be right back. K break for us well be right back. To see and things to do. Thats why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. Uniquely designed with carbsteady. Glucerna. Bring on the day. try Dietary Supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. With so many choices on booking. Com there are so many tina feys i could be. So i hired body doubles. Mountain climbing tina at a cabin. Or tree climbing tina at a beach resort. Nice booking. Com booking. Yeah. So this is pickleball . Pickle ah, these guys are intense. With e trade from morgan stanley, were ready for whatever gets served up. Dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. Id rather work on saving for retirement. Or college, since you like to get schooled. Thats a pretty good burn, right . I dont know how long its been there. Long enough to produce eggs, it seems. 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