Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240703

This is a courtroom roundtable, everyone joining me was at the courthouse and it is basically going to be a gabfest in the hallways. Well, can i just say, trumbo ordered 14 pizzas for lunch. How many did you have . None. I dont know where the pizza was. You know . Hes not the best at sharing, i guess. Who likes a Chicken Ranch pizza . That was one. Anyway, im excited to see your courtroom gabfest. Michael cohen was on the stand for four point five hours today. He was as steady and calm and unfailingly polite as he has been throughout his testimony to everyones surprise. The politeness seems genuine. He says yes sir, and has answers to trumps lawyers crossexamination questions. There was even a moment where the politeness went both ways between Donald Trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer, todd lynch, and Michael Cohen after Michael Cohen give Todd Blackledge a detailed explanation of the new York City Tax business, including regulations of the Taxi Limousine Commission when Michael Cohen owned viable taxi businesses. Todd lynch said understood. Thank you. Michael cohen said, youre welcome. They both seem to mean it which brought hints of smiles to the faces of some of the jurors at just how polite the politeness could be. Todd blanche, smartly, went out of order in his questioning of Michael Cohen, out of sequence. Susan hoffman juror, did direct examination of Michael Cohen, took him through the chronological story of his life before donald trump, then his life with donald trump, ending with his life of crime with donald trump and his guilty pleas, and his admissions of perjury. In that chronological follow over 11 years of Michael Cohens life, this story of line for donald trump, to protect donald trump, made sense in his role as Donald Trumps personal lawyer, fixer. That lying for donald trump is what got Michael Cohen indicted. When you take his lying out of order, as todd blanche did, its a much messier story and much harder to follow. The incentives for the lying are deliberately left out in the questioning that todd blanche chose. The problem for todd blanche during at least four hours of the questioning is that it was covering ground already covered by the District Attorney. So, every lie that todd blanche was underlining to the jury had already been revealed to them in the District Attorneys direct questioning of Michael Cohen. About five minutes of that questioning, maybe as much as 10, by todd blanche, right before the lunch break today, paid off in the way that every Criminal Defense Lawyer is hoping crossexamination questions can pay off. Todd blanche directed Michael Cohen to a Phone Call Log that was used to identify a phone call between Michael Cohens phone and donald trump bodyguard, Keith Schillers phone. Here is how the testimony went on monday, with assistant District Attorney hoffman juror about the phone call. Lets take a look at the call between mr. Schiller and Michael Cohen on october 24th at 8 02 p. M. Do you see that call . The mac yes, maam. Was it 8 02 p. M. . Yes. You called mr. Schiller, or did he call you . s the mac i called mr. Schiller. The mac do you know why you are reaching out to mr. Schiller . Yes. Why . I needed to speak to mr. Trump and i knew that he is, Keith Schiller was with him. Why did you need to speak with mr. Trump at that point in the evening of october 24th . To discuss the Stormy Daniels matter and the resolution of a question. Did you have an understanding about whether that conversation you resolved that, you are moving forward to fund the deal . s yes. That was then, on direct examination. Today, todd blanche revealed Text Messages from Michael Cohen , an hour before his call to Keith Schiller. Those were from a phone number that had been making harassing phone calls to Michael Cohen and the person sending the messages eventually apologized to Michael Cohen and claimed to be 14 years old. Do you recall at 7 48, texting Keith Schiller about this 14yearold, do you recall that . I dont recall. Smith you recall texting Keith Schiller at 7 48, who can i speak to regarding Harassing Calls to myself and office, the dope forgot to block his call on one of them. It sounds right. Do you recall at 8 02, your initial text to keep schiller is at 7 48 and 8 02 he says, call me, right . When you testified tuesday, that you had a specific recollection of that one minute 36 second phone call on october 24th, it was not with Keith Schiller, you called Keith Schiller and he passed the phone to President Trump, you finalize the deal with Stormy Daniels and you said we are going to move forward and he said yes, because you kept them informed all the time, that was your testimony, right . s correct. That was a lie, you are actually talking about the fact that you are getting harassing phone calls from a 14yearold, correct . Part of it was the 14year old, but i know that keith was with mr. Trump at the time and there is more than potentially just this. Thats what i recall based upon the documents that i reviewed. Thats not what you testified to on tuesday. You said you had a recollection of a phone call on october 2430 02 where you called mr. Schiller and he gave the phone to President Trump and you told President Trump about the up dates, that you are moving forward with the funding, and he said, okay, go. That was a lie, you did not talk to President Trump on that night, you talked to Keith Schiller about what what we just went through. You can admit it. No, sir, i cant. Im not certain that is accurate. You were certain it was accurate on tuesday when you are under oath in testifying, you were certain it was accurate you had a phone call to President Trump, but now you are saying you are not certain it was accurate . Based on the records i was able to review, in light of everything going on, i believe i also spoke to President Trump and told him everything regarding the Stormy Daniels matter was being worked on and is going to be resolved. We are not asking for your belief. This jury does not want to hear what you think happened. Objection. Sustained. Michael cohen adjusted his testimony to say he probably first said something to keep schiller about the harassing 14 yearold, before talking to donald trump to get his approval for the Stormy Daniels deal. Michael cohen said i always run everything by the boss really. Then, it was time for lunch. Todd blanche handled those few minutes of crossexamination very effectively, very effectively in the courtroom. That phone call at it 02 is not the only part of Michael Cohens testimony that delivers Donald Trumps approval of the Stormy Daniels deal. Earlier in October Of 2016, donald trump said just do it. That is according to testimony to the District Attorney monday. Heres the testimony from monday. What if any additional pressure did you feel the close this deal with Stormy Daniels as a result the daily mail was in play and they were anxious to sell the story. Did there come a time, after that, again, still in October Of 2016 that mr. Trump in sept since express that he understood he could no longer delay this transaction . Yes. And describe that conversation you have with him. Becky stated that he had broken to some individuals, very smart people, and that its 130,000 figure like a billionaire, just pay it. Theres a reason to keep this thing out there, so do it. He expressed to me, just do it. Go meet with Alan Weisberg and figure this whole thing out. Following that conversation with mr. Trump, did you in fact have some discussions about trying to figure out how the payment would be made . Yes. Todd blanche is not asked if angle quest about S Discussions Michael Cohens arrangement of the Stormy Daniels hush money. He said he would use two hours to finish his questioning of Michael Cohen monday and todd blanche will surely, then, try to create Reasonable Doubt about the meeting Michael Cohen describe , where Alan Weisberg handwrote the payoff plan on the left side of that Bank Statement of Michael Cohens that showed Michael Cohens hundred 30,000 payoff to Stormy Daniels. Todd blanche has to come up with an alternative explanation for that money, written by alan weissberg, on that document, which Michael Cohen says they then brought into Donald Trumps office and discussed with donald trump, that very document. The three of them, in the room, looking at that document. Did donald, alan, michael. In this trial. Michael cohen will be the only person who was in that room who will offer, under Oath Testimony about what happened in that room. The defense has already indicated there is no plan for them to call Alan Weisberg to the Witness Stand, who could, conceivably, testify on behalf of donald trump and maybe say that that meeting never took place. That testimony wont happen. The defense has all but admitted to the judge that donald trump will not testify. The jury will be instruct did that the lawyers questions are not evidence. Testimony by witnesses is evidence that the jury can accept or reject, but questions by lawyers are not evidence. Questions by lawyers prove nothing. Todd blanche is big moment today, where he raised his voice to its loudest level that weve heard in that very polite courtroom from anyone in that room, saying to Michael Cohen, that is a lie, is not evidence in this trial. The jury has been instructed to that. The only actual evidence we have about that phone call is what Michael Cohen has said about that phone call. Donald trumps lawyers could call Donald Trumps bodyguard to testify under oath about that phone call, but they have indicated that they will not call Keith Schiller. So, a loud and jarring and rhetorically very effective question was asked by todd blanche right before the lunch break, but it is not evidence. There were other moments todd blanche had that are perplexing. He said something to Michael Cohen about Karen Mcdougal that undermines one of the pillars of the defense. Karen mcdougal was the playboy model who had a longterm affair with donald trump, and her story was then suppressed by the National Enquirer on behalf of donald trump during the president ial campaign, and the National Enquirer paid her 150,000 for her rights to that story so the National Enquirer could kill that story. Todd blanche actually said to Michael Cohen that donald trump didnt think this story would hurt him. What about his wife . Their position is that whatever donald trump did in relation to Karen Mcdougal or Stormy Daniels was all about protecting the feelings of his wife, not his campaign. But, todd blanche said in court that donald trump did not think the Karen Mcdougal story would hurt him. Why . Because his wife wouldnt care . Because she knows this is what her husband is up to all the time . And at 3 43 today just before the end of Michael Cohens testimony, todd blanche said, President Trump reimbursed you from his own personal funds . Either from President Trumps or from the trust. So, todd blanche admitted that donald trump reimbursed Michael Cohen. The reimbursement is been proven beyond Reasonable Doubt in another case. Donald trump admitted he reimbursed Michael Cohen under 30,000 for his payment to Stormy Daniels. That is a settled legal fact. Todd blanche does not seem to think so, because in his Opening Statement to the jury, he said you are going to learn that this was not a payback. The 35,000 a month was not a payback to Michael Cohen for the money that he gave to ms. Daniels. Todd blanche has not proven that, he has not asks a single question about the money Michael Cohen was heaved for which Michael Cohens guys he did absolutely no work, and that it was indeed payback for which Michael Cohen has provided Allen Weisselbergs handwritten notes calculating the payback, so the essence of the charges in this case have not been touched by todd blanche is cross examination, yet. Its a case of falsification of 34 Business Records which were falsified as part of vacant. See to illegally affect an election. Donald trumps handwriting is on 11 of those false Business Records, the 11 checks made out to Michael Cohen. Theres nothing in cross examination that is going to get Donald Trumps Signature Off of those checks. 12 other falsified Business Records are ledger entries, donald trump not did not make that. The bookkeepers who made those entries have testified about how they made those entries. It makes it a crime to falsify, or cause to be falsified, any new York Business record. The other 11 falsified Business Records are Michael Cohens invoices that Michael Cohen sent to the Trump Organization to effectuate his reimbursement. How did his invoices that he created become Donald Trumps falsified Business Records . He foolishly requested that from Michael Cohen who had no expectation or intention to provide invoices for his reimbursed and paid after the financial officials requested invoices from Michael Cohen, he sent those invoices and what made them falsified Business Records of Donald Trumps is that those invoices were then attached to other falsified Business Records in each one of those payments. Those 34 falsified is in his records, according to the District Attorney, are the crimes charged in this case. Todd blanche has yet to say a single word about a single Business Record that the District Attorney says is falsified. So, the stories of withering crossexamination from Michael Cohen, if you know anything about what that word actually means, not true. It was an excellent cross examination for about 10 minutes, and then was another four hours and 20 minutes where Michael Cohen continued to hold his own, in his way, in the case thats not so much about Michael Cohen as it is about 34 pieces of paper that no one on the defense team has had much to say about. As it stands, the only actual evidence before this jury about how those 34 pieces of paper that the District Attorney calls falsified records got created is that donald trump said just do it. Andrew, adam, and lisa were all in the courthouse with me today and will all join us, next. Then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means theres about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. 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Thats amazing doc. Mobile savings are calling. Visit xfinitymobile. Com to learn more. Doc . Earlier in the trial, the audiotape of Michael Cohen was played with donald trump talked about the possibility of using cash for taking care of some of these problems that were in his life, women telling stories about him and it turns out today, cash does not mean cash, according to todd blanches crossexamination of Michael Cohen. You testified about a comment made in response to a question about financing and use day, financing, and then theres a comment made about cash, right . Yes. Trump turned around and use that word. Hes not talking about benjamins. Hes talking about paying for something with cash, not finance thing. No, sir. We have adam with us, a fellow adjust security and lisa ruben, msnbc legal correspondent. We were all there, i saw every minute of it. This thing turned out to be interesting. What he meant was there are rich people like donald trump in new york, they talk about buying apartments for 5 million. We know they mean a check for the use cash in that way. The way that i think weve all heard that word was this is payoff, but todd blanche says no , no benjamins. Thats not one of his better arguments. He tried. I think people should understand as a defense lawyer, you have a lot of Irons In The Fire and the main issue is to recover and move on. He planted the idea, at least in the jurors minds, which is, cash is cash and its a very damaging statement. I wanted to comment on your opening because i think, with one way, i think one way to think about it is, did todd blanche today create Reasonable Doubt as to what precisely happened on the call on october 24th . I would take the answer is yes. We know that it had something to do with that Harassment Call which is clear from the context presented. Whether it also included a conversation with donald trump is something that you know, i dont know if i think that is right. Thats not the element. I remember in direct examination, its not that important, a phone call . 26 is the key date. Two calls between Michael Cohen and donald trump and those of the calls that right after which, that money was paid and that, Michael Cohen can vanish from the face of the earth and that is still the case and that is still happening at a time that we know that Stormy Daniels and her lawyers really want the money and donald trump are saying, see if you can delay it, until after the election and when push came to shove and they couldnt go further, these phone calls . That, to me, is much more critical and i think that the prosecution and how they presented the defense, i think that Michael Cohen has been excellent in direct and cross in being up front, warts and all , sort of tidying, trying to tie Michael Cohen specifically to precise dates and times when he was clearly saying, i think thats the call. He knew what the substance was, but i think this was a mistake, unless there is something unique that you remember, such as october 26, you might remember, yes, those calls happened because i wouldnt do it until donald trump said yes and i could wire it. So, its like baseball, like innings, and this is the first inning where the defense headed good inning. Every other inning has not been good until tonight. Right. They believe, and i want to emphasize that, that they also had a second good inning to the end of the day were they elicited in a rapid fire manner the number of admissions admissions that are critical to the narrative they want to tell and those include, theres nothing wrong with a nondisclosure agreement, nothing wrong with not having a Retainer Agreement and you never had a Retainer Agreement with anyone whose last name is trump or the Trump Organization itself. There were a number of things they wanted to get from him and did because he was tired at the end of the day. The statement that Michael Cohen made was correct from top to bottom. That statement contains things that are technically true, but says at the bottom something that could be damning which is just because something isnt true doesnt mean it cant be damaging, ill always protect donald trump and i asked him, is this whole statement true today . He said yes, watch for that to come back in closing. Thats an item that had already come up by the prosecution so we didnt, what is the impact of it . We know why he said it. They did not reimburse. Donald trump did. Weve seen it before, but its one of those things that they did try to lean on. Absolutely. Its what they are aiming for, and element and element of surprise. There was another moment where the defense tried some ground that the prosecutor did not prepare Michael Cohen for and that was one of his treatment to congress, when he was talking about this, and he said before the hearing, ive never asked or never would ask except, and he was pressed on it. He got him to admit that that wasnt true. He sought a pardon from other lawyers so that was a moment where he lend landed ace mall below. You can see some of todd blanche , there were some freudian slips and he called in that, if you look at the transcript at the beginning, he slipped again and said, we have provided all the clips to the defendants, the prosecutor interrupts. Thats okay, thats all right. I feel the same sometimes. They will make these discoveries. So, if you can take the witness and knock them off their position, with him saying emphatically, i would never ask for a pardon or accept a pardon and then you discover he discussed a pardon at one point with one of his lawyers, maybe the lawyer could inquire about that. Thats the inconsistency that can really rock a witness, but Michael Cohen is inconsistent. The jury knows it. Hes the huge he is the Human Definition of inconsistent. Theres amount of bravado he has. Weve heard in his podcast, he is wildly out there and profane and im wondering if, can a jury get accustomed to Michael Cohen enough to go, of course he will say that , and of course he will want a pardon , but The Real Thing is, he got the money and he paid Stormy Daniels and that is what its about. It will be interesting to see how they do the summation, how he deals with that. I think that your point is that he really needs to be adult about it and say, first of all, the standard argument is true, that the prosecution did not take this witness. He is a creature of trump world , and this is exactly who they are getting. This is sort of what would happen with anybody. They will have a huge amount of baggage and we knew that. I think that it really will be. Does he not really come to terms with his own ego and his motivations . Can you see some of that related, and is he capable of being, at times, what you heard in the podcast . Hes a complicated figure and no one is asking you to like him or believe that he is a truth teller. Up one side and down the other, the issue is the story, think about what you knew before he took this band. Think about the facts to that point and lets go to the key things that he is saying. Do any of you think that that does not make sense . I wrote a piece in the New York Times about it. It would be so incredible for his story to be anything else, to say i didnt tell donald trump and i somehow managed to get allen weisselberg, with whom i am not aligned, to also not tell him and their other things, the tape recording, donald trump admitting that he reimburse those payments. You piece it together, and of course hes a liar, hes done all sorts of terrible things and all sorts of ways. This, he actually believed. We will keep this going during this commercial break and we will keep one of those cameras recording over there. We will post the commercial breaks conversations online later and you get to read the bench conferences, we will be right back. My Mental Health was better. But uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia, started disrupting my day. Td felt embarrassing. I felt like disconnecting. I asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. Ingrezza ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. 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That federal judge, he blames for him being prosecuted in such a way, that is as crazy as blaming donald trump for paying off Stormy Daniels. I will say this. Totally, Michael Cohen is a very different witness that he has been in previous proceedings and whether or not he is yet psychologically at the position to stop Casting Blame at other peoples feet, he is justified in Casting Blame at Donald Trumps feet and his anger is palpable and understandable. We shared a car earlier today and i was expressing that they are trying to paint him as an interesting, attributive witness, his desire for retribution is intelligible in light of the fact hes the only person in the campaignfinance scheme to serve time did not only did he serve, after he was released because of covid, when he wanted to write his book and start podcasting, the Justice Department found a way to send him back to prison for 51 days in solitary confinement. He has a grudge and justifiably so. He was deprived of his liberty. What they said was it was retaliatory. If the prosecution can draw that out, some of that grudge bearing, its very much relatable. Todd blanche says, there may be two more hours of cross examination with Michael Cohen and presumably the District Attorney will redirect. What does the District Attorney do after crossexamination . s reporter so, the key the key is going to be about this call. I am not sure, i am really not sure how to do it because i think as much the best practitioner we can find is sitting at this table and has been on the prosecution side, the defense side, and you are not sure what to do . I am not, and i will tell you why. You point out the other calls and you just sort of talk about, if you were going to make this up, this is not something to make up made two days later is the critical point, thats the go ahead, and then the white house is important because they actually go to the repayment scheme. This is just, this does carry weight, but hes getting it wrong. I think you have to explain that, but here is the problem. Its focusing on i think, the sister assistant District Attorneys mistake. It was a mistake to tie him so closely and honestly, he was willing to say that, but if you look at the direct, hes really saying this is what happened and she is the one who said, it must be this call. That was the problem, because, by the way, if you look at october 25th, there are bunch of other calls. How its known that its this one . I think i would try to Say Something that Michael Cohen said on crossexamination which is i remember the substance of the calls and some when they happen but other times when it is not the key. I remember what was said because they were really important. Adam, what jumps out at you from the transcript . You were typing furiously beside me, and i am sitting there taking handwritten notes the oldfashioned way, and we cant get every word and so theres always little discoveries in the transcript. There is one that kind of accentuates his antipathy with the Southern District of new york and maybe explains his antipathy with todd blanche, a former representative of the Southern District of new york. You said earlier that its unclear, but not with the Southern District, he was asked by todd blanche, you say you want the truth to come out about prosecutors in the Southern District of new york, right . Correct. In addition to the prosecutors, you believe that the judge is corrupt, as well . Correct. Objection. Overruled. I have said that. You believe that the judge was in on it . I have said that, yes. Do you believe the judge was in on it . s i do. He still holds this grudge and this is something that if you go earlier in the transcript, this was one of the statements he made in april. Shockingly recent. We will get in another commercial break and we will continue the discussion in the commercial break. We will be right back. Back. Ft to show him hes 1. Etsy has it. 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So, we were all at the Courthouse Today and lisa, you have seen Michael Cohen in court where i never did and that was in the civil fraud trial and it was apparently a completely different Michael Cohen. I am trying to figure out what changed, who got to him, he has the same lawyer, his own personal lawyer now that he had then when he was a very messy witness. I think a couple of things. The amount of time the District Attorneys office has invested in Michael Cohen has been significant and although i cant say for sure, and i dont have insight into what the new York Attorney Generals Office did with him, my sense is that the d. A. S office has done a better job of putting their arms around Michael Cohen, owning him as their witness and ensuring he was well prepped for todays testimony. That might have been less true with the new York Attorney Generals Office, particularly since in that case it was a far less important witness and that is even with the caveat that i know andrew has said several times and i agree with this to an extent, that Michael Cohen is not as critical here as most people think he is but is certainly in the ags case, he was certainly a minimal figure in the disparity in prep might of accounted for that. The other thing is i think Michael Cohen just did not see it all coming at him and while todd blanche had one moment where his voice today was like at a 10 or 11, eileen holub set a 10 or 11 the entire time and that had to of been disorienting for Michael Cohen, particularly since his own style is pugilistic. It was like watching Michael Cohen square off against the new Michael Cohen in some sense and then he couldnt help himself, that frequently in that trial, he literally answered questions to him as a witness with a response that only a lawyer is supposed to give in court. He would object himself and because he was not really represented by the ags office and his counsel did not have a speaking role, there was no one to act for him and i think he felt exposed and unprotected and so that might be what accounts for some of the difference. That, and additional time. He learned from that experience and in drawing says in his ruling, not everybody finds Michael Cohen incredible but im going to side with him here but see that ruling as a warning to Michael Cohen. Youre not always on the right side of peoples Dividing Line about your credibility. And what he is doing on the Witness Stand does not come across as performance. Im not saying it isnt, but it does not come across that way. It comes across as this is the way he is sitting here now talking about this. He is not a good actor. There is no way he could come up with this as a performance. I agree and i dont mean this with disrespect but you know, some of the best witnesses, when i was a prosecutor, i remember having an Organized Crime Figure who is really not smart and it was great because there was no way he was going to be able to lie. I mean, all he said was just no matter what, just tell the truth. It doesnt matter what the answer is, just tell the truth and you know, because things are going to come up that you cant plan for, and just whatever it is, doesnt matter, and like he he was so credible and he was getting crossed on what you do anything to get your money back and he was just like, i would say anything to get my money back, and so im not saying Michael Cohen is like that but i did not get the sense that he is such a genius that he was going to be able to come up with this stratagem that accounts for all of this evidence and somehow donald trump didnt know, and i had the same reaction. I mean, i know what the issues are but he seemed, in terms of his admitting what was going on, he seemed really good it just answering the questions and by and large, owning what he did. Quickly, if anything was going to knock him off, it was todd blanche reading text is between Michael Cohen and his daughter, which were not particularly relevant. In fact, not relevant at all to the criminal charges in this case to do with Michael Cohens hopes and he stayed steady through all of that, and that is a new Michael Cohen who could handle that. Absolutely. I will say that one thing blanche constantly said was that was a lie, didnt shake cohen. Blanche said that six times. Cohen admitted it flatly twice in the other times, he made some little clarifications. It has been a week, and luckily we dont have to go back to the courthouse till monday. We needed that rest. We will be right back. That res. We will be right back. When your gut is out of balance, your body gives you signs. So if youre frustrated with occasional bloating. [stomach noises] gas. Or abdominal discomfort. Help stop the frustration and start taking align every day. Align probiotic was specifically designed by gastroenterologists to help relieve your occasional digestive upsets. So you can enjoy life. When you feel the signs, its time to try align. 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