show. an unholy mess. during the most sacred week for christians, donald trump peddles a $60 bible while doing everything that seems un- christian. reverend dr. jackie lewis and a house chtorn are here to discus the real meaning of easter and while trump's ramblings on easter are another page out of the autocratic book. the fraud trial and is still going after the judge in his hush money trial. christie greenberg is here to talk about why the current gag order on trump may not be enough to silence him. and a timely lol from snl. >> you're going to love my new and i would say even better bible. it comes with everything you like from bible like the story of easter, which primarily concerns jesus, not so much the bunny. i kept waiting for the bunny to show heup. he never showed up. that's okay. >> i'm jonathan capehart. this is the sunday show. thank you for joining us this easter sunday, a day deeply rooted in tradition and faith. for christians around the world, easter is the holiest day on the calendar, commemorating the resurrection of jesus christ. it's also a time for hope, renewal, and peace. which are among the themes in pope francis' easter address in st. peter's square this morning. the pope reaffirmed his calls for an immediate cease-fire in gaza and the release of all israeli hostages while also calling for peace in ukraine, haiti, and other global conflicts. here in the united states, donald trump marked his easter weekend with a much different, more divisive message blasting president biden for proclaiming march 31st as transgender day of visibility, which has been observed on this date every year since 2009, but coincidentally happened to fall on easter sunday this year. the white house pushed back saying, quote, as a christian who celebrates easter with family, president biden stands for bringing people together and upholding the dignity and freedoms of every american. and therein lies the difference between biden, an actual man of faith who goes to church virtually every sunday, and trump who quotes himself in christianity in order to not only use religion as a weapon but also as a money-making opportunity. trump is now hawking a god bless the usa bible that includes lyrics from lee greenwood, the constitution, the declaration, and the pledge of allegiance. that's right, for the bargain price of $59.99 plus tax, you too can get your hands on a maga-edition bible. >> all americans need a bible in their home, and i have many. it's my favorite book. we love god, and we have to protect anything that is pro- god. and i think you t all should ge a copy of god bless the usa bible now and help spread our christian values swith others. >> what chin the separation of church and state? look, we all know trump don't know nothing about no bible, which he calls his favorite book. how do we know? watch this. >> the bible means a lot to me, but i don't want to get into specifics. >> even to cite a verse you like? >> old testament guy or a new testament guy? >> probably equal. >> 2 corinthians, 3:17, that's the whole ball game. >> is that your bible? >> it's a bible. >> ha, ha. i go to church about as often as trump appears to, and even i know it's second corinthians. what's even more insulting about the bible-thumping grift is he has lived his life in contradiction to his professed faith. quote, trump's biography is very nearly a compendium of the seven deadly sins. the man is a twice-impeached, four times indicted on 88 counts former president. he's been found liable for fraud and sexual abuse, and he's a thrice married accused adulter who allegedly had a daliance with a porn star. he denies any wrong doing of any kind. then there's this ridiculous comparison made by trump and his maga supporters, the one that equates trump with jesus christ himself. just today, he shared a link on social media to an article headlined the crucifixion of donald trump. don't forget back in october, trump shared an ai generated courtroom sketch that depicted jesus sitting next to him at one of his trials. all this reminds me of a bible verse from matthew, chapter 7, verse 15. beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. or those who are more secular, see justice take the wheel. author of fierce love, a bold path to ferocious courage and rule-breaking kindness that can heal the world and ruth bengiat an author of strong men, mussolioni to the present. thank you for coming back to the sunday show. reverend lewis, talk about the meaning of easter and why trump's messaging may be particularly offensive ssto christians today. >> i'm still recovering from your monologue. that was just so fierce. i mean, take a breath. >> thank you. >> this is such a powerful day in christian tradition. the story of god coming all the way down to be in the midst of us. i have to say, when i was a child, i spoke as a child, and i thought like a child. when i was a younger person, i thought n,easter meant that hum kind was so awful, so bad, so unworthy that o god had to send god's son into the world, and the son had to be killed so that we might live. and i no longer believe that, though lithere's a lot of tradition about that called substitutionary atonement. what i think is true is easter is about how even in the midst, jonathan, of suffering and death and devastation all around the globe, as was then in ancient rome and palestine, love has the last word. the death of jesus on the cross wasn't the olast word in that story. love rose up out of the grave and rose up f for love to teacht us how to love, that love is eternal, and love never ends. >> and reverend lewis, what's your reaction to trump demanding an apology from president biden for proclaiming today as transgender day of visibility, even though it always falls on march 31st? >> well, first of all, if trump was reading the papers or being a human being, he would know that's true. we don't change that date because it happens to fall on easter. i think it's a miracle it happens to fall on easter because the christian faith should be and is about welcoming all the people, even the ones we find strange. i'm so proud that president biden said those words about trans-day of visibility. in utour congregation, we wrapp our easter message all into that love of our trans- siblings. they are children of god, not uniquely children of god, children of god just like i am, like you are, and absolutely beloved in their beautiful perfection. so i'm glad for easter and trans-day of visibility showing up at the same time. seems fitting to me. >> amen, amen. ruth, why should we be alarmed by trump selling this maga bible and exploiting religion in this manner? >> first of all, i'm honored to be here 'mwith you and reverend lewis on this special day. >> me too. >> in terms of trump's bible study, his first wife ivana said he had two books in his bedroom. one was his own art of the deal and the waother was a book of hitler's s speeches. the bible was not there. so unfortunately, it's often that the most impious and depraved people in history of leadership are the ones who are acclaimed as saviors of the nation, starting with mussolioni who was an atheist. he was the one who made the deal with the vatican on up to victor orpan who poses as the savior of christiandom in europe but is persecuted and closed over 300 churches because their religious heads were not aligned with his politics. what happens is certain kinds of authoritarian faith traditions do very well and make these bargains like the t evangelicals have done and orthodox jews with trump. progressive faith traditions get marginalized or persecuted. that's what history tells us. >> ruth, the website where trump is selling that bible says this is the only bible endorsed by trump. trump continues to be very popular among white evangelical christians. is this vital to his hold on power or sense of legitimacy? >> unfortunately, it is because these are corrupt people who have to surround themselves with an aura of holiness, that they're the saviors. this business of him being a martyr, he's being indicted for the people, so he uses this kind of savior martyr, religious-tinged language which allows people of faith, it's familiar to them. so these are, this is one of the oldest scams, these depraved people are going to save the nation. with trump, there's an overlay he's a marketer. he has no ideals other than power and making money. very sadly, a webible becomes just another prop for him, another thing to sell. >> reverend lewis, i'm going to have you try to lift us up. we are living through a time of deep divisions where our democracy and freedoms are on the line and wars around the world are causing extreme devastation. what's your message to those who are not feeling hopeful this easter? >> totally understandable with all the violence in sudan, congo, haiti, gaza, here in the united states. but here's what i want to just encourage us. we are the ones we've been waiting for. easter is about the coming of god into the world and the survival of love over death, but it's also about each of us. today i preached about marry magdalene who was, by the way, not a prostitute, folks, another corruption of story. but the first odisciple to go and preach. she saw the risen jesus. tell my family you have seen me and i have gone to our god and our father. so friends, you are are, like mary, like me, we are called to be the bearers of the good news. and we're smarter than drinking the kool-aid that trump is part of the good news. even our evangelical friends know deep in their soul, that's not true. i'm asking you to read the real bible, right? to talk to each other in community, to study the scriptures that are holy in whatever your tradition is, and be inspired by those words of resilience and hohope and love. god is love. god is love. love, period. and all this other mess is commentary. some of it, wrong. >> reverend dr. jackie lewis, ruth bangiat, what a fantastic way to start the sunday show. thank syou. >> appreciate you. >> thank you, jonathan. next, donald trump is pushing more legal boundaries, launching another social media attack against a judge's daughter. i'll speak with christy greenburg about the dangers of trump's tactics. plus a rough week for two of trump's co-defendants in the georgia election interference case who are facing disbarment for their role in trying to subvert democracy. how that's going for them. after the break, you're watching the sunday show on msnbc. sunday show on msnbc. at's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours. a force to be reckon with. no, not you saquon. hm? 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(vo) visit mytepezza.com to find a ted eye specialist and to see bridget's before and after photos. here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. new york prosecutors are asking for protection against donald trump in his hush money trial after he lashed out at the daughter of the judge. manhattan da alvin bragg is urging the court to clarify the gag order and stop him from attacking the relatives of anyone involved in the case. writing, quote, the fear is not hypothetical. in the course of preparing for trial, multiple potential witnesses have already expressed grave concern to us about their own safety and that of their family members. trump has already challenged the da's request and insisted the judge's daughter should not be off limits under the gag order. he is running out of time to post the $175 million bond in his fraud case. an appeals court pushed back the deadline and reduced the amount trump owes, but he still has to pay up by thursday. in trump's election interference case in georgia, he's asking an appeals court to remove da fani willis from that trial. willis was able to remain on the case after the special prosecutor she once dated stepped down. meanwhile, trump's enablers and fulton county co-defendants are at risk of losing their law licenses. on march 27th, a california judge recommended disbarment for eastman, the far right attorney behind the fake electors scheme. at a disciplinary hearing, ex- justice department official jeffrey clark repeatedly took the fifth rather than defend his role in trump's coupe attempt. clark's lawyer even offered to take questions for him so he wouldn't sound guilty or end up on msnbc. >> to make a record while avoiding us all being on msnbc for no good reason, we could affirm we'd be taking the fifth to those questions, and so that would avoid the blanket assertion problem, the adverse inference problem, the appeal problem, and the msnbc problem. >> too late, kind sir. smile, you and your client are on msnbc for good reason. joining me now, legal analyst and former federal prosecutor christy greenberg. she served as deputy chief of the sdny criminal division. thank you for being here. love your reaction to john eastmanman and jeffrey clark facing disbarment. how could that impact their defense in the georgia case? >> well, it would affect their defense if they were to take the stand and they were to testify. anything they say under oath and publicly could be used against them in a later criminal case. you're seeing them wisely take the fifth and not speak to avoid exactly that problem. >> do you expect the judge to close the loophole that's made it possible for trump to attack the judge's own family members? >> i don't. so the terms of the gag order really have a carveout so that they are allowing for criticism of the court, of the judge, as well as of the district attorney. and that gag order really tracks the same gag order that was upheld by the d.c. court of appeals in the january 6th case in d.c. so by kind of carving out those two entities in addition, it also carves out family members of those entities, so i think you'll see the judge confirm that family members of the judge and family members of the da are not covered by this gag order, and he can make public statements about them. but i also think that you will have him, you know, issue something of a warning and perhaps an amendment to the terms of his pre-trial release in saying that you can't make threats against anyone, whether it's the da, whether it's the judge, whether it's family members, anyone because we are getting dangerously close to that line being crossed here. he's posting pictures of the judge's daughter. he's not just criticizing her for having worked for democratic candidates and then saying that the judge is somehow compromised as a result of that, which by the way the new york state judiciary advisory committee has already found that does not make the judge impartial, and therefore he should not recuse himself in this case. but if trump wants to criticize him about that, he can under the gag order. but we are getting dangerously close to going beyond criticism because what trump is really trying to do is inflame his base and really put a target on the judge's daughter's back, and that's not okay. so i do think the judge will address it. i don't know that it will be in the form of this gag order because i do think he's going to really stay close to that d.c. gag order, but i do think that he will address it and give a very stern warning and perhaps make that change to the release conditions, and then note that he will enforce those conditions if they are broken. meaning, if he does anything like threaten his daughter, incite violence in any way, then he's going to impose an extremely strong sanction. what could that look like under the law? it's either maximum of $1,000 in a fine, which is nothing for trump. or it could be up to 30 days in jail, which would be meaningful. so i think he needs to come out strong tomorrow that he's not averse to really imposing that kind of a severe sanction if if he continues down this path. >> i'm doing the math. how many bibles would he have to sell if he got a $1,000 sanction? trump is still liable for a total of $454 million in that civil fraud case. why do you think the appeals court is letting him post only $175 million bond by this thursday? >> that is the $175 million question. they didn't explain why. and it really defies logic as to why they would have reduced the amount of a bond. this is a defendant and i sat through, i attended much of that trial, his whole defense was i am too rich to defraud anyone. these banks wanted to cultivate a relationship with me because i am so wealthy. you had don, jr. going through in his testimony essentially a timeshare presentation of each of the iconic assets and properties that were part of the trump business empire. so it is an odd thing to have a defense about just how wealthy you are and then when it comes time to pay, you don't have the money. so that is problematic, to say the least. it's not clear why they would have under those circumstances for this defendant with that defense reduced the bond. he actually said just a day or two before the bond was reduced that he had $500 million in cash to pay it. clearly, that wasn't true. but again, this is not somebody who deserves any kind of reduction, especially because who bears that risk? the people of new york do. if he's not able to pay it. so it's a case where the judges really should have explained their reasoning. and even if they explained it, i don't know we would have agreed with it, but at least they should have explained it. >> we're already over time. i have to ask you one more thing. liz cheney had a message for the supreme court as they consider trump's immunity claim later this month. listen. >> i think it's very important that the supreme court recognize that what he's doing is a delaying tactic, and that the american people, it cannot be the case that a president of the united states can attempt to overturn an election and seize power and that our justice system is incapable of holding a trial, of holding him to account before the next election. that cannot be the case. >> so christy, real quick, what's your sense of the timeline at this point? >> i think, unfortunately, it will be the case. the supreme court had every opportunity here to take this up quickly and move expeditiously, and at every turn they have not done so. so again, i don't have a lot of faith that this trial will happen before the election. they could have expedited briefing back in december. they could have even expedited it now when it was brought up just a month or so ago, and at every turn they have declined. so i don't, unfortunately, think we'll see that trial before the election. >> christy, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. coming up, it's that time again. signing off with my panel to the latest news bytes including parody of donald trump's latest act as bible salesman and a real-life rebuke from an actual pastor. you don't want to miss this. you're watching the sunday show on msnbc. the sunday show on msnbc. y'all wayfair makes it so easy to create a home you'll love. it's the talk of the neighborhood. kelly! i just wayfair'd. -that's wayfair... saving time saving money. you wayfair'd your whole bathroom?! even the vanity - when i wayfair, i wayfair ya know? 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[ metal groans] sure, i can hold. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ in theaters now. to give your teeth a dentist clean feeling. start with a round brush head. add power. and you've got oral-b. round cleans better by surrounding each tooth to remove 100% more plaque. for a superior clean. oral-b. brush like a pro. that's right. it's easter, the time of year when i compare myself to jesus christ. that's just a thing i do now and people seem to be okay with it. i'm going to keep doing it. and if you think that this is a bad look, imagine how weird it would be if i started selling bibles. well, i'm selling bibles. look at this beautiful bible, made from 100% bible. >> i mean, you just have to laugh to keep from crying. that was james austin johnson offering his take on donald trump's new business venture, selling bibles. joining me now, special correspondent at vanity fair. matt dowd, author of revelations on the river, healing a nation, healing ourselves. and eugene daniels, political white house correspondent, and playbook co-author. all are political analysts. we saw that, the sending up of trump hawking his own bibles. let's hear what senator rafael warnack had to say about trump- endorsed bibles. >> the bible does not need donald trump's endorsement. donald trump is doing what he's always done, and this time it's a risky bet because the folks who buy those bibles might actually open them up. where it says things like thou shalt not lie, where it warns about wolves dressed up in sheep's clothing. i think he ought to be careful. this is risky business for somebody like donald trump. >> i would love to get molly and matt, ya'lls reaction to this craziness. molly, you go first. >> i mean, you know, rafael warnack is the preacher at martin luther king's church, right? the guy really does actually know what he's talking about, so i would assume it's pretty offensive to him. you know, i am, i'm, you know, not particularly religious, and i'm jewish so i can only imagine how offensive it is to people who are actually religious catholics and christians. but the republicans seem not so interested in that. i mean, they spent the whole weekend attacking biden because trans-visibility day was on the same day as easter. you know, because it's always on march 31st. so i do think there was quite, you know, there seems to be no alliance. there seems to be no, it just seems to be that the far right doesn't care that biden is this religious catholic and that trump has all these marriages and it just seems like they don't care. it's a false equivalency. >> would love your view. also, love the mustache. but your view of all this? >> it's got a bit more gray than the last time i grew one. well, happy easter to ya'll, everyone. i am a christian, grew up catholic, went to church this morning, heard a great message from the minister about love conquers hate and light over darkness and rising when we call. it is offensive. it's incredibly offensive. when donald trump speaks and holds the bible up, it reminds me of an odd combination of elmer gantry and lonesome roads from a face in the crowd. i recommend anybody who hasn't seen that move from the '50s, it's a great retrospective on what we're faced with today. everything thing donald trump does offends the message of the gospels in my view. jesus knocked over the tables and the temples, now donald trump's hawking a bible. donald trump speaks and is the most divisive, cruel person in the history of the presidency, and obviously it's an exact opposite of what jesus' message was in this. but to me, it speaks to the rot that exists among the christian nationalists in this country who believe in a prosperity gospel, that you're supposed to get rich. it's incredibly, incredibly revealing that there are evangelicals in this country and christian nationals support this guy and support his message in trying to hawk things. that's what they're doing in their daily lives in many of their churches. it's such a revalatory, to use a religious term, that donald trump does this and is backed by certain people of the faith. it just exposes the rot that exists in faith communities in america. >> eugene, i'm going to switch gears coming to you and bring it back to the secular world and the political world because, you know, stuff's happening in that building over there on the house side and there's a lot of conversation, you know, speaker mike johnson is in trouble with the house freedom caucus and marjorie taylor green and her motion to vacate. democrats, what ya'll going to do when the time comes and you gotta vote or not vote for mike johnson? two democratic members of the house are on separate shows. congressman khanna was on fox news sunday. conley from virginia was on msnbc. listen to khanna and then conley and what they have to say about what they would do if they were faced with having to vote to save mike johnson. >> i would consider it under two conditions. one, we get the aid into ukraine, so we stand up to putin. and two, let's get the $6 oh # 0 million to rebuild the bridge in baltimore. >> to reward him because he finally brings up a bill that's going to pass with 300 votes, well that's his job. that's not doing us a favor that has to be rewarded. so i part ways with those who say we owe him something. we don't. he owes us something. >> and so the thing here that they have in common is that khanna is saying give me funding for baltimore and funding for ukraine. congressman conley is saying you should be giving us ukraine as a matter of course. what's going to happen? >> there are a lot of people in both of those camps, right? we want to get things from you in order to give you and save you, mike johnson, from being the next kevin mccarthy. but also, do your job, we don't care. the only opinion that's really going to matter at the end of the day is jefferies. he leaves this caucus, he's strong with how he leaves it, he learned from nancy pelosi in knowing what his team needs to be doing and also giving them permission to go out and saying i'm not going to do this. they have already signaled they're okay with saving him because of the things, because the people that will come next in their view are going to be much worse than mike johnson. that's something democrats and leadership have said over and over and over again, right? he was much more further right than kevin mccarthy and the person after that is probably going to be much further right than him. and so they are having those conversations. it's also not completely clear if marjorie taylor green will pull the trigger on her motion to vacate. just sitting there as an open threat. but mike johnson is in actual trouble because they have proven over and over again they don't care about their leadership in the conference. the house freedom caucus doesn't care about the larger aspect, and more importantly, some of them don't even really care about governing. >> a lot of folks in the genre publican conference, they were sent to washington to blow things up. >> to gum up with works. >> you're kinder. gumming up the works is much kinder than my little analogy. don't go anywhere. my panel will stick around for more reaction. one republican congressman is talking about ending the war in gaza quickly, just like nagasaki and hiroshima. i'm shaking my head. see you on the other side. on t. zero heartburn. meet the traveling trio. the thrill seeker. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. diabetes can serve up a lot of questions, like... what is your glucose, and can you have more carbs? 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>> i mean, it's just a completely insane and despicable thing to say. and you know, it's not so out of character. a lot of these republicans, these house republicans say stuff like this. but it's just, you know, i mean, use of the bomb was one of the darkest moments in american history. and to compare, i mean, it's just, i mean what matt was saying, it's layer upon layer of dysfunction, tragedy, horror, not anything anyone wants to hear any politician say. >> right. i mean, he needs to go see oppenheimer so he can see, you know, the consequences of what he's saying. eugene, are these folks still on recess next week, or are they back? and will anyone say anything to congressman walberg about what he said? >> maybe. but probably no one in leadership. the fact of the matter is that a lot of the republican conference kind of just says whatever they want, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of repercussions because they seem to be moving the conference instead of the leadership moving the conference along. i will say and add to what was just said, there are a lot of different examples in american history, in world history, in anyone's history in books and novels that show and would be a good metaphor for ending something quickly and safely, and this would not be one of them. that had nothing to do with the nuclear bomb. >> right. the other despicable thing he said, i think he said in there, we shouldn't be spending a dime on humanitarian aid. folks, we have got to go. thank you all for being here. and still to come, everything does not happen for a reason. my conversation with author brian claus. history is often driven by random events and flukes. you'll be amazed by the examples. that's after the break. the examples. that's after the break. you know what's brilliant? 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(♪♪) that's how you business differently. intuit quickbooks. struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven full-spectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles or confusion which may mean a life-threatening reaction or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. sleepiness and stomach issues are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ we all need fiber for our digestive health, but less than 10% of us get enough each day. good thing metamucil gummies are an easy way to get prebiotic, plant-based fiber. with the same amount of fiber as 2 cups of broccoli. metamucil gummies the easy way to get your daily fiber. you may have heard of something called the butterfly effect, how one small change can alter the world around us. well, a new book, fluke, chance, chaos, and why everything we do matters, gives extraordinary insight into how our world works and how random events can effect our futures. i had the opportunity to sit down with the author, brian klaas, to discuss his inspiration behind the book, including his personal fluke story. brian klaas, welcome back to the sunday show. >> thanks for having me on. >> what inspired the book? >> i think there's a sort of feeling that we all have that the world is falling apart all the time, faster than ever before. and i also think there's this tendency we have as humans to stitch together neat and tidy stories to explain why things happen. my argument in the book is there's more randomness, more chaos theory that can help us make sense of how the world works. this book is trying to correct this idea that everything always happens for a reason. sometimes things just happen. and i also think we have engineered a world where we're more prone to flukes and things falling apart faster than ever before. >> let's take that first part because you have a personal story that relates to that. talk about that. >> it's a story of a tragedy from 1905. a form house in wisconsin. a woman has a break down, and she ends up killing her four children and taking her own life. her husband comes home and finds the family dead. this is my great grandfather's first wife. he later remarried to my great grandmother. the weird thing about this, i found this out in my mid-20s. i wouldn't exist if not for these children being killed, but also you would not be listening to me. this is chaos theory, the fact that 119 years later this tragedy has led to this conversation. we often just write these things out. we imagine they're noise. the world works in these mysterious ways where you have extremely bizarre ripple effects through the mists of time, that is also true for politics, and for history. >> now talk about politics. because it certainly feels like everything is falling apart, and it feels like in some instances by design. >> yeah. so i think there's a few things we've done in order to make it more likely the world is falling apart. we've optimized to the absolute limit. my favorite example is the suez canal boat that got lodged in the canal and caused $154 billion worth of damage. we've designed systems that are so brittle when anything goes wrong, things can fall apart very quickly. i also think it's important to think about our modern politics. there's some speculation the moment decided to run was when he was joked about by barack obama in 2011 at the white house correspondent's dinner. when you look at georgia, there's a swoop in the county- level election results you can see on the map. that's basically the coastline from an ancient inland sea 65 million years ago where phytoplankton settled around that coastline and it made the soil rich. that's where people set up plantations. the demographic manifestation of that today is where that's a lot of the black voters in georgia are clustered. those are the counties that ended up carrying 2020 for joe biden and that state and the senate for the democrats. you can actually visualize it from an ancient inland sea from the cretaceous period. the world is swayed more by flukes than we can imagine. >> you just rocked my world with that example. you know, you take the view, and it comes through in both the answers you just gave that we control nothing but influence everything. expand on that. >> yeah. i think this is actually one of the uplifting aspects of the book, is that there is all this chaos, there is all this sort of randomness. that means this illusion of control that we're told we have. the american dream, by the way, is built on this illusion of control. it's actually not true. we have influence because our actions ripple outwards in unpredictable ways. everything we do has unintended consequences as well as intended consequences sometimes. every joyful moment in my life is derived from a mass murder 119 years ago proves that point. in politics, you have random occurrences. the opening story of the book is a vacation that a couple takes to japan. 19 years later, the husband is the secretary of war, and he goes to president truman to take kyoto off the list. that's because of a vacation that one couple took in 1926. these stories abound throughout history and politics and also in understanding the ways flukes affect our own lives. >> one thing you touch on is that when bad things happen, people say well, that must be what god intended. and you posit well, what about the good things that happen? can't we say that as well? >> yeah. so psychologically, we are allergic to explanations of randomness when bad things happen. when you get diagnosed with cancer or somebody breaks up with you, there has to be a reason. we have no problem accepting positive events as i just got lucky. causality operates the same way. it's not like cause and effect has two different models whether it's positive or negative news. we need to make room in our lives for sometimes there is randomness. if we pretend otherwise, we can make quite significant decision- making mistakes. this is important in navigating an uncertain world. >> the name of the book is fluke. chance, chaos, and why everything we do matters. thank you very much for coming back to the sunday show. >> thanks for having me on. that will do it for me today. thank you for watching. i'll be back next saturday and sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern. follow us on x, instagram, tik tok, and threads. you can catch clips of the show on youtube. don't go anywhere. on youtube. don't go anywhere. ♪♪ when you're a small business owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪ [ cellphone whooshes ] [ sighs ] that's why progressive makes it easy to save with a commercial auto quote online so you can take on all your others to-dos. already did. see if you could save at progressivecommercial.com. norman, bad news... see if you could save i never graduated from med school. what? 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