Good evening and welcome to a special episode of the trump indictments, donald trump is charged with 88 Felony Counts in four different jurisdictions. In this hour, we will cover the latest developments in Donald Trumps criminal cases starting with Fulton County, georgia today. We will also zoom out and reflect on whether the american Justice System has so far proven whether it can meet the challenges of, as we write in our book, the former president s attempt to politicize our corrupt not only elections, but american governance and the rule of law. Jamie raskin will join us. Later in the hour, we will flip the script and ask and msnbc anchor the important questions. Chris hayes will join us to weigh in on the medias role in the event that voters ultimately get to render a verdict on donald trump before a jury does. Our Breaking News tonight comes out of Fulton County, georgia for District Attorney fani willis has learned that she will not be disqualified from her election prosecution against donald trump. The case had been imperiled after one of Donald Trumps Co Defendants alleged in an proffer relationship improper relationship between willis and nathan wade. After the last month saw both willis and wade take the stand to defend themselves, Fulton County judges got mcafee issued his decision today and a 23 page order and had harsh words for willis and wade, writing that the prosecution is now quote, encumbered by an Appearance Of Impropriety. This appearance is not created by near status alone but comes because of specific conduct and impacts more than a Mere Nebulous Public Interest because it concerns a public prosecutor. Even if the romantic relationship began after wades initial contract in november 2021, the District Attorney chose to continue supervising and paying wade while maintaining such a relationship. She further allowed the regular and loose exchange of money between them without any direct or verifiable measure of reconciliation. Despite the singing assessment of willis judgment, the judge concluded the defendants failed to meet the burden of proving an actual Conflict Of Interest in this case through a personal relationship with the lead prosecutor. The other alleged grounds including forensic misconduct are also denied. However, the established record now highlights a significant Appearance Of Impropriety that impacts the current structure of the prosecution team, and appearance that must be removed from the states selection of one of two options. Nathan wade exercised one of those options this afternoon when he tendered his resignation. Joining us now, we have melissa redman, a former Fulton County, georgia District Attorney and former professor at the university of Georgia School of law. Also with us is emily couplin, Criminal Defense Attorney and former federal prosecutor. Welcome. Amy lee, lets start with what should we expect next . I was reading this decision and i was left with trying to understand is one side or another going to appeal . The judge seemed to invite all sorts of Ethics Inquiries with a litany of various places that people could go to complain about what they allege happens here, and then there is the issue of is fani willis going to stay as the main supervisor of this case, or is there some option where she could get to a deputy to oversee . What you think is going to happen next . Is this the last we are going to hear of this are just the beginning of the saga . I think its a little bit of both, andrew. First of all, to appeal a decision like this in georgia requires jumping through a number of hoops. The judge would have to issue a certificate of immediate review than the court of appeals would have to agree to take the case. You saw in wednesdays ordered where the judge offered to issue a certificate of immediate review on the dismissal of the six counts. He did make the offer in this order so i think its unlikely hes going to issue the certificate so i think its as unlikely that there will be an appeal although the truck team will certainly try. In terms of Going Forward, i think the d. A. Is simply going to roll up her sleeves and continue. She has a defense, you know. 10, 11 people sign off on pleadings. Its a large office. I think there are close to 200 District Attorneys in the office. She has people she can look to. Whether or not she remains the face of prosecution is up to her but i think she will. I think rico is her special thing. She has prosecuted these cases successfully and i think she will simply go forward. I understand that those were harsh words but im sure she will heed them and just keep moving forward. So, melissa, these were really stinging words from judge mcafee, a true public scolding, if you will. Did Judge Mcafee Go Beyond in calling out the two prosecutors for their relationship, given that he actually found there was no actual Conflict Of Interest here . I do believe he went a bit far and i think that because in his ruling, the first thing he says is that it was evident the District Attorney did absolutely nothing to warrant a belief that she is prosecuting this case are pursuing this case, extending the litigation of this case for any reason other than what her fiduciary duty requires her to do, that she has no personal interest in the litigation of this case, so they are moving on then he starts discussing the Appearance Of Impropriety while he finds that whatever appearance there may have been, the defendants did not conclusively prove, would not warrant the belief that if he stays on the case perhaps the relationship could resume, perhaps it could continue to be a belief of a financial interest that he found didnt exist to warrant him requiring wades removal from the case, so i think he is kind of playing both sides in the order and i think a lot of the language is unnecessary, but ultimately, i think as harsh as the words he used it to describe the unprofessional conduct, as he described in the testimony, the thing that was key to me in that the defendants alleged is that she had a personal interest in the case resulting from this relationship and produced no evidence that was the case, so i think that is what we should focus on. Can i follow up on this . As you say, it seems like it was a bit of a gratuitous scolding. Does that prime any jury pool in Fulton County to essentially disregard, maybe discredit the things fani willis puts before them as she goes forward to prosecute this case . Has he essentially primed the jury pool to be incredulous of this d. A. As she goes forward . I think that remains to be seen. There are two things i wonder what impact that. One is how far we are from Jury Selection and how many things will play out before we even get to Jury Selection. There are many more motions to be heard, many more hearings that will take place all for everyone to see and then how much of this will judge mcafee allowed to be presented to the jury, having found that the defendants have not been prejudiced by any of these allegations, that there has been no personal interest in the litigation of this case. I dont see how it is relevant for any questions to be close to the jury about what they believe the nation of this nature of this relationship was when it started, all of these things that were in dispute that he talked about in the Appearance Of Impropriety section. I dont see how that is relevant to question the jury about and again, we are very far from Jury Selection so we will see what changes before we get there. Do you agree with that . And also, this issue melissa raises about being far from Jury Selection, what do you think . What do you think a trial could happen . I hate to put you on the spot to predict, but that is what everyone is wondering, what does this mean . Sure. To answer the first question about Jury Selection, we are going to get a pretty good idea about what the Fulton County jury thinks about the d. A. In may. She is up for reelection. The order came out after the qualification period, and we will see if she gets elected. I think she will. I think she has a lot of Popular Support within the county. Number two, how far out are we . Georges Conflict Rules look to what other cases have been set. The state this d. A. Has said she needs about a 30 day run. Right now it looks like the new york case is set to go sometime in april and the former president in the classified documents Case Affirmatively Asked For A Trial Setting In August and september after insisting it could not be tried until after the election so there is a shot. If she can jump in sometime this summer, if she can get that trial date set she can go for it, but it remains to be seen, you know. We are still seven months away from the election, and that is going to be here before we know it, unfortunately. Melissa redmon, amy lee copeland, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Good night. Coming up, a former trump aid could be headed to prison next week and contrary to what donald trump says, prosecuting and convicting former leaders accused of serious crimes is wait for it totally normal and just, at least in other advanced democracies, so is america just bad at this . We will discuss next when the trump indictments return. Ne att. Treat and prevent, all in one. Dont take if allergic to nurtec. Allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. Most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. Relief is possible. Talk to a doctor about nurtec odt. My moderate to Severe Plaque Psoriasis held me back. Now with skyrizi, im all in with clearer skin. Things are getting clearer. i feel free. To bear my skin, yeah thats all me. Nothing is everything with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90 clearer skin at 4 months. And most people were clearer even at 5 years. Skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. Serious allergic reactions. 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I did it my way my name is oluseyi ask your provider for cologuard. And some of my favorite moments throughout my life are watching sports with my dad. Now, i work at comcast as part of the team that created our ai highlights technology, which uses ai to detect the major plays in a sports game. Giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. Former Trump White House adviser is now heading to prison while donald trump, so far, has successfully delayed his own day of reckoning. The d. C. Circuit court of appeals ruled yesterday that trump trade adviser Peter Navarro must report to prison on tuesday after being convicted of Contempt Of Congress for defying a subpoena from the january 6th committee. Peter navarro appealed that decision today to the Supreme Court. His justice is, of course, include clarence thomas, whose wife was at Donald Trumps rally to over turn the election on january 6. Donald trump repeatedly says it is unprecedented to indict a former president and he is right. It is unprecedented. What is also unprecedented is trumps conduct, his alleged crimes against the people he was elected to serve. Those, too, are unprecedented at least in the United States. As we point out in our book, recent history provides several examples of other advanced democracies that have recently prosecuted, convicted and even imprisoned its former leaders. France has prosecuted two former president s and one Prime Minister for corruption. Last month, an Appeals Court upheld a guilty verdict of former president s are cozy for illegally financing his campaign. He was sentenced to prison but remains free on appeal. The italian Prime Minister was also convicted of tax fraud, embezzlement and sentenced to a ban on holding elected office. He also received prison time although because of his advanced age, he was 76 at the time, he was exempted from actually being in prison. The former israeli Prime Minister served 16 months of a 27 month Prison Sentence after being convicted of fraud, corruption, and Obstruction Of Justice and in argentina, Cristina Fernandez de kirchner was, as we discussed in our book, not simply convicted in December 2022 of corruption for awarding public contracts during her presidency. She was also sentenced to six years in jail and disqualified from holding further Public Office and down in brazil, trumps Buddy Bolsonaro has also been barred from running for future office for eight years after he refused to concede his last election and his supporters then attacked his congress. Sounds familiar. Another big news today, mike pence, who defied donald trump on january 6 after he confused refused to concede said today he will not endorse trump in 2024 and that was the first question we had for congressman jamie raskin when we spoke to him earlier today. It should come as no surprise i will not be endorsing donald trump this year. I made it clear that there were profound differences between me and former President Trump on a range of issues and not just our difference on the constitutional duties that i exercised on january the sixth. Donald trump is pursuing and articulating an agenda that is at odds with the conservative agenda that we governed on during our four years and that is why i cannot in good conscience endorse donald trump in this campaign. Joining us now is democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland, a member of the january 6 select committee and served as lead manager in the second Impeachment Trial of donald trump. Welcome. Thanks for having me. We had some Breaking News today because the Vice President for the former president announced that he would not be endorsing donald trump, which itself, is kind of amazing. Maybe it is not surprising given what Cassidy Hutchinson wrote about in her book, enough. Their calling for the president to be hanged. The president is okay with it. He doesnt want to do anything. He doesnt think they are doing anything wrong. He thinks mike is a traitor. This is crazy. We need to be doing something more. So, congressman, as a lawyer and someone who is steeped in american Legal Systems and how we are doing, how do you think we are doing compared to other countries that have managed to hold political leaders to account france, argentina, italy . We dont seem to be able to do that and we have his own Vice President saying he is not going to endorse him and we still have not been able to bring him to trial. Well, we are still in the middle of the fight, obviously, and i am hoping that a year from now we will be able to look back on it and acknowledge that our institutions were resilient enough and our people fought hard enough to repel the fascist menace within, but it does feel strange that donald trump is still floating as a candidate when his own Vice President refuses to endorse him simply because donald trump sent a violent insurrectionist mod mob chanting hang mike pence, into the capital when we were trying to accomplish the peaceful transfer of power so i imagine it feels very tough and difficult when you are in the middle of one of these struggles anywhere, but yes, it is certainly disturbing that things are as close as they are but remember, you know, joe biden beat donald trump by more than 7 million votes, 306232 and the Electoral College in commanding majorities of americans reject what trump and his Court Followers have to sell, like an antichoice antienvironment, antiunion program. The problem is that they have all these antidemocratic devices that they are able to use to keep themselves in the running, like Voter Suppression tactics, gerrymandering, state and federal districts, corporate dark money, the filibuster and so on, so it is really a race between the will of the majority, which is clearly on the side of democracy and freedom in almost every case versus their ability to manipulate with this bag of trips tricks theyve got. You mentioned a number of antidemocratic devices that are being used right now. Some might argue that the Supreme Court itself is being used in a way that is antidemocratic. Im going to ask you a little bit about trump versus anderson, the recent case where the Supreme Court invalidated the colorado Disqualification Of General donald trump. As a member of the january 6 committee, you different charges to affirm to the doj. The federal counsel did not actually charge insurrection. You think that was a mistake given that if insurrection had been charged it wouldve been a federal charge based on the congressional statute designed to implement the guarantees of the 14th Amendment and perhaps the Supreme Court wouldve found some room Going Forward to allow congress to have spoken on the question of whether donald trump should be disqualified . Well, congress did speak. We voted in congress to impeach donald trump for inciting an insurrection against the constitution, and we took it over to the senate and the senate voted 5743 in the most sweeping bipartisan vote in a president ial Impeachment Trial in the senate in u. S. History, to convict all the trump beat the constitutional spread by 10 votes because youve got to convict by two thirds. Then again, you do have commanding bipartisan, Bicameral Majorities establishing is a legislative fact that donald trump did it. He participated in insurrection, so no. I dont think there are any magic words that could have been used by the congress or that could have taken place that would convince this court. They clearly wanted to punt on section 3 of the 14th Amendment issue and they punted all the way down the field over to congress, saying it is really up to congress to decide, although every other part of the 14th Amendment is self executing. The Equal Protection Clause itself in section 1 is self executing. If the government violates Reproduction Rights you can just go to court and sue. You dont need to be suing under statute that is been passed by congress under section 5, so we just said its the same thing under section 3. At the clear constitutional directive that if you violated your Oath Of Office by engaging insurrection or rebellion you can never hold office again and yet, this court of texture list and originalist was staring right at the text and understood the undisputed original meaning and purposes of section 3 of the 14th Amendment and they simply said oh, theres nothing they can do. There is nothing states can do. Congress has to ask, knowing that right now republicans still retain this slender majority, but still a majority in the house, so mike johnson is not going to be interested in doing anything but still, we have to legislate to put a mechanism in place so we can deal with officeholders who become insurrectionist and try to overthrow our system of government. Congressman, speaking of dealing with people who are still enablers in seeking to overthrow our system of government, you mentioned that there were a lot of people who joined you in terms of finding there was an insurrection but day in and day out, what is it like to be serving with people who were not in that camp, who are supporting and enabling not counting votes and enabling what is going on now . How does it feel, and is there anything that can be done within either parts of congress to deal with that problem, people who have taken an Oath Of Office but dont seem to be compliant with it . Yeah, its like we have been watching our gop colleagues sleepwalking into fascism, and it is just step by step, they accepted unacceptable and intolerable things, beginning with things like you know, you can grab women by their private parts or calling third world countries, you know, blank whole countries, or the muslim them and then each step they say well, ill go along with this, ill go along with that and then one day, they are just like people waking up on the Basement Floor of a religious cult, asking how they got there. So, it is depressing. I had a lot more republican friends before, a lot of the ones who did not want to go along with the authoritarianism and the putin worship and being in league with autocrats. They got out and they left, so it is really just a handful left who i feel i can engage within a common political enterprise because a lot of them are willing to go with donald trump in trying to attack the Constitutional Order from the outside, so that is why i feel like with cheney, mitt romney, the ones who were willing to stand up for the constitution, we have to hold close to those people because when you look at the history of fascism, it is very hard to beat a fascist or authoritarian movement with one political party. You need to unite people across the political spectrum, so we have to be acting in concert as much as we can with the Lincoln Project and the moderate republicans, the independents who have had enough, and every day, i hear from people like them, so we just have to keep building our ranks and not being sectarian in how we approach this. Congressman, thank you so much for joining us, and for your words. I appreciate being with you guys. 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Will connect to a special hour of the trump indictments. On monday, march 25th, it was supposed to be the first day of juror selection and Donald Trumps criminal trial for fraud related to his efforts to pay off adult film star stormy daniels. But, today, the judge has agreed to delay the start of the trial for 30 days postponing it to midapril after it was revealed that the Southern District of new york was failing to produce Tens Of Thousands of pages of documents to the defense. All of those documents have now been turned over and judge marchand has set a hearing on these discovery issues for march 25th. In doing so he said quote, the court will set the new trial date, if necessary, when it rules on the defendants motion following the hearing. Of course, the Trump Lawyers said in their filing today that the delay of the trial should not quote, obscure the need to dismiss the indictment as a whole. End quote. Also today prosecutors asked judge marchand to delight trumps motion to delay the trial until after the Supreme Court rules on immediately immune immunity. The defendant has provided no valid reason for waiting until a mere 2. 5 weeks before trial to raise this Immunity Argument when he has long been aware of the defense. End quote. Andrew, i have so many questions. First of all, what on earth is going on in the Southern District of new york . How long does it take you to produce documents in an actual criminal trial . What is going on, thats like the polite version of you know what im actually thinking. As i am pretty sure that alvin bragg and David Williams will take up that conversation. Let me describe first the legal issue before judge marchand, why hes going to have a hearing on the 25th, the day we were going to have a trial hes going to have a hearing, there is a relatively new law in New York State that requires prosecutors to turn over Defense Documents in a very timely way. It is pro defense in a good way and there is a sanction if the d. A. Does not do that and that can include dismissing the case. So this hearing is going to be about whether that happens and if this case is going to be dismissed. If it is dismissed it will likely be determined that it is braggs fault but it does not seem like it is braggs fault. It does not seem likely but step number one is is there anything that is braggs fault and that will be this discussion of the First Tranche of documents, the second tranche of documents. Its going to be trench warfare. What is going to happen is the d. A. , as he has written so far as he is saying he asked for these documents from the Southern District of new york over a year ago, so the thing i cannot answer is what in gods green earth is happening, so that is really the issue, as you know, whose fault is it, and is there a legal issue here where the defense can capitalize on it. I doubt that is the case but the Southern District of new york may look bad at the end of this so i have a question for you. Okay. It had to do with the Immunity Question you raised. Also a delayed situation. Exactly it and also involves me saying what in gods green earth is happening . I dont understand the delay in the Supreme Court. So, you have the government saying i want this to be decided quickly, the public has a right to a speedy trial. I want to get to trial so that one way or the other, there is a decision. You would think that if donald trump is saying im immune, i shouldnt suffer the opprobrium of the criminal case. I dont want to have a gag order, that he would want this decided on that issue, not the trial date, but on the Immunity Issue quickly but that is not what is happening so whats going on with your Supreme Court . All right, so why is the Supreme Court moving at a glacial pace . To answer, ive brought in my extraordinary cohost, University Of Pennsylvania Lepper first seen law Professor Leah and kate shop. Im going to go straight to you. Whats going on . I think they are the best cocounsel Donald Trumps lawyers have ever had because theyve just given him what he wants most, which is to delay the trial. What they did is set on his petition and application to stay the d. C. Circuits decision before deciding they were going to take up the case and they scheduled the case for two months after that but not until the very end of the term at the end of april so that has added on a ton of time to the delay and they are again giving him what he wants, which is risking no trial before the election. I have a question for kate, then. Were you surprised at all that there wasnt some sort of dissent or concurrence or note or some signal from any of the justices who may have been less sympathetic to that stance that leah has set out, that some signal do you think maybe that was bartered for the schedule we currently have . I do think the April 25th Hearing date is probably the result of compromise and negotiation that was happening behind the scenes. I am sure some of the justices were appalled at the date, the end of april, two months after the decision to act on this application and you know, really getting up against impossibility when it comes to pretrial proceedings and an actual trial. The justices are acutely aware of what it takes to get the case to trial when the case is already been on hold since december so i am sure there was some unhappiness but i have to imagine there were some justices who wanted to delay even further, maybe into next term, which is what trump was asking for, so this did feel like a compromise, and it still could be if the justices rule quickly after the april 25th arguments. If they do, we could still be on track for trial and obviously we wont know until we have the cates argued. Case argued. There is another case being argued, fisher versus United States and there it is a case brought by a rankandfile january 6 defendant who argues that the statute hes been charged under was not intended to be used in a situation like january 6 and this is the same statute trump has used to charge jack smith and is there a question where the court has delayed this is that they at least want to hear arguments on the fisher case first . Potentially and it is right that is the same statute at issue in a couple of charges brought against truck so they are not unrelated and in theory, if the court finds there is a fatal flaw in the way those charges were brought, in that case and in the trunk case, as well, then those charges fall away but it does not completely only the case against donald trump so i think either way they have to, not having taken it up, answer the Immunity Question and to my mind, it is not a hard question. This argument for absolute immunity is baseless. It does not have any supporting precedents or constitutional structure or theory and i expect ultimately they will reject it but of course, timing is everything here and if they rejected at the end of june im not sure we can still get to a trial before election day. You think it is possible that instead of an up or down decision they might do what they did in a related case in the d. C. Circuit, which is send it back for factfinding about what is an official act and what is not an official act, which would make it absolutely clear this is never going to trial before the election . That is a very real possibility. When the d. C. Circuit issued their decision, even assuming this falls under the definition of official act, the immunity wouldnt cover this but it is possible the Supreme Court could say that there is a definition of immunity that grants the president immunity but in order to figure out whether the indictments cover that, the court needs to make Additional Findings to determine whether trumps conduct falls within that definition. In that case it adds a additional layer of briefing which makes a trial before the election i think impossible. Really good stuff. Leah litman, kate shaw, thank you so much for joining us. Coming up, it is possible American Voters might render a judgment on Donald Trumps most serious criminal charges before any jury has a chance to in 2024. That is next when the trump indictments returns. N the trum indictments returns. This painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks and could make it hard to be there for your loved ones. Shingles could also lead to serious complications that can last for years. If youre over 50, the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside you. And as you age, your risk of developing shingles increases. Dont wait. Ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles today. Ya know, if you were cashbacking you could earn on everything with just one card. Chase freedom unlimited. So, if youre off the racking. Or crab cracking, youre cashbacking. Cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. Nah, im working on my six pack. Switch to a king suite or book a silent retreat. Silent retreat . Hold up yeeerp . 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General holder [ inaudible ] all the charges against donald trump are unlikely to be resolved in a court of law. Many of them are unlikely to even get to trial. Ultimately it will be left to the individual voter to make a decision about these disputed facts when they go into the booth to cast their ballots. We are lawyers, so we are often focused on what happens inside the courtroom and often, judges and lawyers go to Great Lengths to keep what is going on in public to keep from infecting what is going on in the courtroom but here it may be the case that what mightve happened in a courtroom will ultimately shape how the public views these allegations, the defendant, and his candidacy, which means the media will play a huge role in how the public receives the information contained in these indictments and processes it in the lead up to the election. So, how should the media approach that task . Tonight, we thought we would flip the script. Usually, we are in the guest chair fielding legal questions from msnbc anchors but tonight, the tables have turned. We will be talking to an msnbc anchor about how they plan to approach these issues. Joining us now is chris hayes, host of All In With Chris Hayes on msnbc. Hi, chris. Its fun to be here. As melissa said, you know, when i was thinking about my prior life as a trial lawyer i was on these highprofile matters where what we were focused on is how to deal with what was going on outside the courtroom and not letting that affect what is happening inside the courtroom and that is what judges do when they are trying to figure out how to screen out jurors who cant be fair, and it struck me, we are in the reverse situation now, and one question we had for you is, are we focus too much on trials, what is happening in the courtroom and is that too myopic . No, i dont think it is. In fact, i would like to give you a more pollyannaish in view of this but i actually think there is no replacement for a trial. I think the trial, as a matter of finding fact and law in the Public Domain as judged under the constitutional due process protections in front of a jury of ones peers is an important category all its own that cannot be replicated or substituted by the press and i honestly think in some ways there is a certain amount of information that the press cannot provide that only a trial can. I mean this in both directions and i keep saying this but i truly mean it, which is, if a jury were to Acquit Donald Trump of these crimes, which ever they are, that is incredibly significant information for avoiding public. The same goes for conviction but in both cases, that bit of information cannot be replicated by the media. So, i completely agree with you that a jury trial is probably the best mechanism we have for resolving the disputed questions but i feel it is very unlikely were going to get to a jury trial. So, given the kind of misinformation and disinformation with which our current political mill you is plain, how are we going to mediate these Different Levels of facts, disputed facts, so that when the voter does go to the voting booth that they are able to make an informed decion, like how will the media approach that and sift through the disinformation . I dont know. The media is a hard thing to talk about right now because it is as fractured as i have experienced it in my adult life. The Information Environment is almost as opaque as it has ever been, partly because of how many people are getting news from algorithms that are not transparent, like Rush Limbaugh. Rush limbaugh was on the air forever. Anyone can just go and figure out what Rush Limbaugh was saying. No one knows how many people are watching a given video on tick tock for reals. For me, here is the most important thing in the real problem. The source of the word, news, is new. Old things fade in memory and without the focusing event of a trial, the things that he did are old. And yet, but the evidence shows in Public Opinion data is that peoples memory of that is fading and its important to remind people of the covid response, january 6, everything happened during that tumultuous year of 2020 and i am worried that the news will be chasing new things as opposed to doing it civic duty to remind people what actually did happen. It seems the mechanism that we have right now that we were sort of hoping will break through and get people to think and focus is a criminal trial, because you know what i used to do, this is about proof beyond a reasonable doubt about whether someone could be locked up. This is a very different issue about, how do you get facts out there in the debate about facts and what somebody did and what really happened and whether he should have the privilege of running for office. Yes, it should be a different standard, like should you be locked up and should you be president should not be the same standard, right . Thats where im going. Like someone should be able to say im not going to vote for your president. Im not sure if i could convict you in a court of law but i suspect youve done a lot of bad things. Or even the voters can make up their mind however they want, but yes. It is strange that it is the situation we find ourselves in, particularly when we go back and look at the january 6 report were a lot of this really was through a quite detailed process, brought forth to the public in a way that was not just news reports and was not quite a full trial, but it was an official proceeding with sworn testimony and discovery that said hey, look, this is the story. To the interest point, there are two different questions. Should donald trump lose his liberty or should he lose an election. Is it really the job of the public to sift through the first question and instead, should we have allowed the public to focus on the second one by having an actual Impeachment Trial that made sense that was a real proceeding where we did not have this partisan factions but we actually got to the meat of an Impeachment Trial and made a decision about whether or not this person should serve in office . I thought the Impeachment Trial, fast as it was, presented a pretty good case for insurrection against the u. S. And got more bipartisan votes than any Impeachment Trial in u. S. History. I think that should he be locked up or deprived of his liberty is fairly important signaling aspect and important political question. I do think there is a sense youve seen this with senator robert menendez, youve seen it with others where people can be indicted and still serve in office and do different things. A conviction means Something Different to the public. It just does, and i dont think its crazy for that to be the case. That is a lot for us to think about and a lot for the media to do Going Forward. Up next, we have something to say about donald trump and defendants rights. Yes, you heard that correctly. We are going to make the case for defendant trump. That is next. R defendant trump. That is next. 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Most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. Ask about nurtec odt. Business. Nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. Its not a ninetofive proposition. Its all day and into the night. Its all the things that keep this world turning. The gotos that keep us going. The places we cheer. And check in. They all choose the advanced Network Solutions and round the Clock Partnership from Comcast Business. See why Comcast Business powers more Small Businesses than anyone else. Get started for 49. 99 a month plus ask how to get up to an 800 prepaid card. Dont wait call today. Final thought. Donald trump is charged with historic crimes and he is allowed to defend himself vigorously with counsel and all of the tools that are afforded to him. That is the right that our constitution gives him and all of us. The truck defense, the strategy to delay, to try to seek a stay, to appeal, that is something he is entitled to try to do that is a right that he has. These are charges that he can make and that is a process that our system affords him and all of us. Nevertheless, the fact of these incessant delays suggest the defendant who maybe is not actually that interested in having his day in court. The question of immunity is instructive on this. United states Supreme Court has slated oral arguments on the Immunity Question for the end of april and has been discussed, we dont actually know when they will render a decision. That should be a concern for all of us. Most importantly, it should be a concern for defendant trump. Any defendant who is actually raised the defense of immunity should want to know if he will prevail on that defense, if he is actually immunized from criminal liability, even in circumstances like this one where the questions are unprecedented. The fact that the Supreme Court and donald trump see no problem with a significant delay, that is the real question. But please, dont take our word for it. So, it is actually imperative i think that the public read the indictments for themselves, that donald trump seems in no hurry to respond to and we hou