just ruled that fulton county district attorney fani willis can stay in charge of the sweeping election interexperience case into donald trump and more than a dozen others if and only if top prosecutor nathan wade, the man she had a relationship with, goes. covering all of the angles of this major decision with msnbc's katie phang, and lisa rubin, danny cevallos, and dave aaronberg, state attorney from palm beach county, florida, thank you all for joining us, katy, walk us through this 20-plus page decision and the choice willis has to make now. >> so, ana, msnbc first to report this 2346 page ruling that came from judge scott mcafee. the process has taken a few months, and so to that extent, if there was a win, the win would be for the defense for the delay. however, ultimately judge mcafee saying no actual conflict of interest was proven by the defense. it was their burden to have to show it through competent evidence during the course of the hearing. the judge reporting there was an appearance of impropriety that affects the prosecution. the cure, the choice for fani willis at this time, she and her entire office steps aside to allow the prosecution to be reassigned or special prosecutor nathan wade steps down. it seems to be an easy decision to be made that fani willis would stay, and nathan wade would go away. however, wade has played a critical and crucial role in this prosecution since day one, this is not the last that fani willis is going to hear when it comes to challenges to her continuing prosecution of the case. the defense, for example, trump lawyer steve sadow ind kaet kating he's going to appeal the decision and in order to do so the prosecuting counsel in the state of georgia has indicated there would have to be an appeal of this decision to that counsel to review it, and so we're going to be seeing, and keeping tabs on what happens. >> any news yet from trump's legal team? >> other than the fact that they've indicated that they're interested in appealing this decision, they've also indicated that they are disappointed with the decision, stating that the court did not afford appropriate significance to the prosecutorial misconduct of willis and wade but those are the arguments advanced during the course of this multi-day, multi-hour evidentiary hearing. >> greg, we have an ultimatum for fani willis, does that surprise you? >> i don't know how surprising it is. it cures this legal problem, but it comes is a steep price. nathan wade is experienced, tenacious, and has been involved for three years now. her credibility has been under attack through these extraordinary hearings that could undermine the credibility from the legal pool she would draw from in fulton county and she's also facing political challenges, not just from two challengers to her reelection bid in fulton county, who stand very little chance but to also exploit these issues for political gain but also from republicans in the georgia legislature, governor kemp two days ago citing legislation that could lead to a potential investigation, even reprimand, senate leaders have already filed a complaint against her last year they're going to revive that complaint, and, of course, there's an investigation in the georgia senate led by allies for lieutenant governor burt jones who also could be implicated in this overall trial that will look to subpoena fani willis and look to subpoena others to review this case. >> dave, what's your reaction to this decision, did judge mcafee get it right? >> i think so, ana, it was a tough decision, he tried to split the baby here, and i think he did, although i can see on appeal how an appellate cars may say can you actually do this, where you order that the special counsel has to be removed, while the d.a. stays? so that means you don't believe the testimony from nathan wade and terrence bradley but you believe fani willis, it's difficult to get my head around it. but i do think that in the end this is the right outcome because there is no actual conflict. that is the ultimate standard here. because, if she had a relationship with a defense lawyer or the judge or a witness, that would be an actual conflict. but to have a relationship with someone on your own team is not an actual conflict. it didn't have to even get to this stage, this -- it only happened because you had an affidavit from nathan wade saying that this is what happened, this relationship didn't begin until later. if they had just fessed up from the beginning, if they had just thrown nathan wade overboard from the beginning when this came out we wouldn't be here in the end. in the end she gets to move forward, take the "w" and move on. >> the court found there was no actual conflict of interest, but the judge did write the record established the appearance of impropriety, and as long as wade remains on the case this unnecessary perception will persist. so, lisa, judge mcafee is saying this is about optics, no? >> he's saying it's about both. that both things can lead to a disqualification, and then he separates the two. whether there's an actual conflict of interest and the defendants fell short of their burden there, an automatic disqualification has to happen. where you have the appearance of impropriety on the other hand, he says it's really like a sliding scale, and it's up to the court to determine whether disqualification is the necessary remedy that they take. and here, when he's talking about the appearance of empropriety the person whose testimony concerns him the most is nathan wade, he doesn't take a swipe at fani willis's own credibility, but he definitely takes a swipe at nathan wade, and in particular, he says that wade's patently unpersuasive explanation for the inaccurate interrogatories he submitted in his pending divorce gave him a lot of concern. let me take a step backwards. because nathan wade, as we all now know is in the middle of a divorce. in the course of that divorce he was asked questions in writing, called interrogatories, one of those questions is, did you, during any point of your marriage, have a relationship with someone else? and he said no. when asked to justify that on the stand here, he basically said, well the marriage was over in my mind. that is what judge scott mcafee is referring to. he wasn't truthful in another case, having nothing to do with this one, but having some repercussions for this one, and because of that, that's why mcafee is saying the remedy for that appearance of impropriety is that either willis goes and her office with it, or wade goes, giving her the easy choice. >> so, we have a lot of the reasoning in this decision, it's more than 20 pages, danny, but we got a little bit more into judge mcafee's head in a brief interview he had yesterday with one of the local news stations there in georgia. take a listen. >> the message i always want to convey is that ruling of mind is ever based on politics, i'm going to be following the law as best i understand it. >> ruling not based on politics u following the law as best he can. there was a lot on the line with this decision, for judge mcafee personally, for the state of georgia, for the country. >> yeah, disqualifying the d.a.'s office would have meant not the actual technical end of the case, but it effectively could have completely derailed the case. as it is, even this order is a win, you know, both sides win, and both sides lose, in a sense the d.a.'s office wins, but barely, and the defense also, their motion is granted, but barely granted. >> granted in part? >> yeah, when i say in part -- >> they wanted the whole case dismissed because of this issue. >> i say in part, and what he really means is, in teensy-weensy part. the only person disqualified is nathan wade, did he lead the team? a major loss for the team? sure. the prosecution goes on. this was a motion to dismiss the entire indictment or in the alternative disqualify the d.a.'s office, they got rid of exactly one prosecutor, he's not gone yet but let's face it, that's what's going to happen and it was a hardly a ringing endorsement of judge mcafee of what the d.a.'s office did and you have to wonder, the d.a.'s office had come forward the moment this motion was filed, assess the situation, looked at nathan wade and said, you know what, nathan wade, we see the interrogatories you put in your divorce case, that's on you, you've got to live with it, good luck, the d.a.'s office was defending the credibility of nathan wade and they shouldn't have been in that position. in my view, this is just my view, if they had come forward the moment this foegs moegs was filed and said, you've got us, we were in a relationship and it pre-dated nathan wade's appointment, the law was always on their side. you need look no further than this opinion. the actual conflict analysis, this doesn't fit into any of the classic actual conflicts. the appearance of impropriety i submit to you would not have been as strong an argument, it was bolstered middle eastly by everything the d.a.'s office did, nathan wade and fani willis did after that motion was filed. >> i want to bring in blayne alexander live outside the courthouse there in fulton county, blayne, you were first to report this decision, and have been following this case so, so closely. i want to get your take aways from what the judge said here in this decision, and its impact as this case moves forward. >> reporter: you know what, ana, i think the one thing that stands out to me is the judge's language in all of this. yes, we talked about the long and short of what he's ruled here, but he does not hesitate to take the d.a. to task, i mean, he basically scolds her for her testimony, for a lapse in judgment, in this relationship, and so i do think that that certainly is kind of an interesting nuance, especially to note as we know that this case is now going to proceed, yes, you can go forward, nathan wade has to be out of the picture but this wasn't a good idea. this wasn't necessarily the smartest move on your part, and i'm going to call you out on it. the question now, of course, is what happens next, reached out to the d.a.'s office to see what we already know, that, you know, steve sadow said in his statement that they are going to continue fighting, trying to get this indictment thrown out, using available, all available legal options to them, the other questions, though, that i have are what happens, of course the legal portion of this is now kind of wrapped up in the judge's decision, but now what happens to the ways that this has bled over? she's still under investigation by a georgia state senate committee, there is the governor just signed a law this week basically saying that state lawmakers can now have oversight over georgia local prosecutors, something that democrats fear will be another tool that republicans will use to go after fani willis. and so even though the legal portion of this is, you know, essentially buttoned up, pending whatever action she chooses to take, there are many ways in which this has bled over and i think that shadow is going to be present over this for quite some time. the other thing i want to point out, though, of course, is the political aspect of all of this, donald trump, fani willis, judge scott mcafee, are all going to be on a ballot at some point, this year, i think that's certainly notable, but when you look at judge scott mcafee specifically, the judge races here in georgia are non-partisan but he has already drawn two opponents, two challengers, when i spoke with a source that's familiar with the judge's thinking on this, i'm told that this order was written more than a week ago. before he drew his challenging opponent. so, you know, kind of trying to make the case that politics didn't have anything to do with his decision, but we also know that donald trump and people who criticize this case in general will, likely, find fault with this, and we've seen that other judges and trump legal cases have become targets as well, and that's why i'm told security was a major factor in the decision to release this today, ana. >> i'm curious, blayne, the reputation piece here, in georgia, how do the citizens of georgia see it as this case has been upended for the past couple of months after these allegations came out? >> reporter: depends on where you go and who you ask. if you're right here in fulton county, fani willis is tremendously popular, this is a heavily blue county, a big democratic county, you know that, when i've spoken with voters or talking with people casually, they watch and what they watch, they feel fani willis is being targeted. a number of people said maybe it wasn't the best choice on her part to have this relationship with nathan wade but when they looked at, what you're seeing right there, the fact that a lot-over personal business was kind of trotted out in front of the public, aired live on television, they say that they believe that is just simply not fair, and that she wasn't treated fairly in that process. now, if you go out to other places in this typically red state, you'll get different opinions. other people say the whole thing is ridiculous, a couple people have said it's made a mockery of the state of georgia. that's actually something that one of the opponents of scott mcafee has said, this entire kind of almost side show we've seen the past 2 1/2 months has made atlanta a laughing stock. no question, though, no matter where you land on it people are paying attention and watching it closely, ana. >> dave, what do you think this decision means for the strength and the credibility of this case moving forward? >> ana, i never believed this case would go to trial before the election. so, if you just accept the fact that this was going to be delayed past the election, anyway, because of all the different defendants, and all the rico counts which are complex and time-consuming then i don't think it's a great loss at all for the d.a.'s office because she gets to continue. she should just move on, tune out the noise about her personal life. throw nathan wade overboard and move on with the two other special prosecutors who can lead this effort. this is a win for fani willis. i'm bewildered as to how the judge got to this conclusion to split the hairs like this, but in the end i think it's a good resolution. it allows this case to continue, even though, like i said, it's not going to go to trial before the election. >> just quickly, i wanted to get your two thoughts here, danny and lisa with me, how quickly this case could get back on track and whether it will happen before the election that we'll see at trial. >> it depends on what else is happening and what i call trump trial tetris, a number of different players trying to get their cases tried before november, alvin bragg now has to figure out when his case will be tried. he said yesterday he would agree to a 30-day adjournment. the only problem is that judge -- has another trial scheduled on may 27th, it's the steve bannon we build a wall case the new york district attorney has. there's a lot of moving pieces, i think if fani willis wanted to go to trial before the election it would certainly be difficult for her to do so, but not impossible. >> quickly, danny. >> yeah, i mean, to build on lisa's point, call any courthouse and ask a judge, if they need to move a date. they're looking at june, july, august dates already, in an ordinary courthouse, these are the most significant criminal cases, arguably, in american history, trial dates are delicate things, they require a lot of moving parts to line up perfectly at the same time, and continuances are common in ordinary cases, in complex rico cases, in georgia, in fulton county, jury selection takes eight months, we know that because it just happened. >> just the jury selection. >> just the jury -- not one witness, not one part of the prosecution's case in chief, jury selection, that highlights a stark difference between state court in highly populous counties versus federal court, which generally moves a lot faster, but these are all complex cases, and things happen. >> everyone stay close when we're back in 60 seconds, we're going to get some reaction from a georgia legal insider, don't go anywhere. you know, when i take the bike out like this, all my stresses just melt away. i hear that. this bad boy can fix anything. yep, tough day at work, nice cruise will sort you right out. when i'm riding, i'm not even thinking about my painful cavity. well, you shouldn't ignore that. and every time i get stressed about having to pay my bills, i just hop on the bike, man. oh, come on, man, you got to pay your bills. you don't have to worry about anything when you're protected by america's number-one motorcycle insurer. well, you definitely do. those things aren't related, so... ah, yee! oh, that is a vibrating pain. with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. welcome back, we are continuing to cover the breaking news out of georgia, the judge ruling fani willis can stay on the georgia case against donald trump, this is that sprawling election interference case, as long as her special prosecutor nathan wade steps down. let's bring back greg bluestein, and amy lee copeland, amy lee, starting with you, since you're new to the conversation, what's your reaction to this decision that dropped moments ago? >> good morning, ana, i thought it was a real win for the district attorney's office, even if it's not nominally designated as a slight loss. when the judge had a hearing in advance of the first evidentiary hearing it was clear he felt something needed to be done. the status quo can't continue. he decided to hear evidence on it rather than just accepting the parties' written submissions. so he has engineered an opinion where he's found no actual conflict but an appearance of impropriety that can be remedied by -- the d.a.'s office has ten or 11 signatories on motions, it has a depp bench. they will hurt from losing their chief operating officer but that's a whole lot easier to replace than an entire d.a.'s office, so, again, labeled as a loss but i think really a win for the district attorney. >> greg, we had already seen four of donald trump's co-defendants plead guilty in this case, 15 remain. do you think we'll start seeing discussions about that again, trying to get people to flip, and get more plea deals under the belt of the district attorney's office? >> we could. there also might be buyer's remorse from four co-defendants that reached plea deals we interviewed the georgia gop chair josh mccoop who suggested as much that they should have held out but there's steep, steep legal fees the state party is helping to pay right now to help some of those defendants. but no, i think this case now gets on track. we already saw a ruling earlier this week involving some of those criminal counts that were at least temporarily thrown out against these 19 or 15 remaining co-defendants. now the real work starts getting under way again. >> amy lee, so much of fani willis's personal life was put out there for public consumption. she shared a lot on the witness stand, trying to say, i have nothing to hide, how difficult does it make her ability to really take full command again of this case, do you think? >> you know, i don't think she ever lost full command of this case. she strikes me as a very powerful person, she's a career prosecutor, she very much knows her mind. i think she has always been in charge, and as you will see, the office really rallied around her, in the course of these proceedings, you know, she has had a course plotted for her, she, i think, needs to roll up her sleeves, and i'm sure she will and just get back to that course. she had told the judge, her office has, that within 30 days she will be ready to try this case. i have no doubt that that is a correct assessment, even if and when mr. wade resigns. >> and, of course, judge mcafee issued a decision earlier this week, dropping some of the counts in this case, including three counts against trump specifically, what do you see as the practical impact of that decision as this case moves forward, amy lee? >> you know, perhaps not as much as some others do. prosecutors put in counts for a number of reasons, these, of course, were overt acts, also in the rico charge, those remain, but a lot of times you charge not just your main count but also some that carry lower statutory penalties to give people plea options. those counts are out now, that just means that these defendants that are affected can't plead to those counts unless the d.a. resurrects through a superseding indictment. she may very well. she has gone on record, there are some defendants, the top five, never offered a plea agreement in this case, so i really think it has minimal impact on the case moving forward. >> and, greg, blayne touched on this, you just touched on it, i think, as well, but you have this new reporting about both d.a. fani willis and judge scott mcafee as they are facing political challenges in the wake of this election interference case. can you expand on this? >> yeah, it's remarkable, isn't it, that three of the top figures in this entire case are all going to be on ballot. donald trump, but fani willis and judge mcafee will be on the ballot as well and both fani willis and judge mcafee, very soon, in may, they'll face their first challenges, and, look, scott mcafee and fani willis are heavily expected to easily win another term, but they still have to look over their shoulders. fani willis is facing a democratic and a republican challenger, democrats are saying she's not being progressive enough, she should be more criminally justice minded, embrace more, and republicans seizing on any misstep she makes, not just in the ruling we just saw, but going forward can be darling of far right media, can get all sorts of donations and media attention and all that, who, again, will have very little chance of winning a county that has one of the deepest blue democratic -- in the state. biden won in 2020, and at the same time could make fani willis's reelection challenge more of a headache. >> the political and the legal are colliding in this election unlike any, i think we've seen come before it. thank you so much, greg blue stein, and amy lee copeland. and we continue to dig into today's decision out of georgia and we're also following big developments in two other trump trials, in florida and new york. stay right there. we'll talk about that on the other side of this break. 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>> there's some blame that could probably be assigned to three different sides here, but the general rule is this, you start with the rule that, in criminal cases, discovery is a little more limited than it is in, say, civil cases, but in terms of discovery, the manhattan d.a.'s office is technically only required to hand over what they have. they connecticut hand over things they don't have, not required to go out and look for things if they don't have it and they're not going to use it and they didn't know it existed, certainly not if they don't know it exists. while both are prosecutors, the southern district is a federal -- part of the federal branch and the manhattan d.a.'s office are state prosecutors, and, contrary to popular belief they're not always working closely hand in hand, in fact, if you ask some candid prosecutors in the manhattan d.a.'s office they might say sometimes federal authorities do not cooperate with them at all and guess what, they don't have to because of the supremacy clause of the constitution. they don't have to listen to things like state court subpoenas, or phone calls from the manhattan d.a.'s office or the nypd. they do what they like. they turn over documents, the u.s. attorney's office, when they like, and in their judgment, they are now turning those documents over. arguably, they never had to. in the manhattan d.a.'s case, and if the manhattan d.a. is learning about it now there's no discofry violation. if they dealt with the michael cohen prosecution which happened years ago, then maybe there's blame to be assigned to everybody for knowing that they were probably out there, somewhere, but ultimately the southern district does what it wants when it comes to turning over documents. >> and the bottom line is, now the judge has to make a decision on how long the parties need to look at these additional documents and records that could be germane to the case here in new york. meantime, dave, back in florida, we were covering that all day yesterday, judge aileen cannon has now denied one of trump's motions to dismiss the classified documents case, but she dnlt rule on the other. so, there were two motions discussed yesterday, she rules on one, says we're going to deny that request. the other one is still out there. why are we waiting on the second one? >> well, it's good to be back with you, ana. these are both loser motions, trump can win by continuing to delay the matter. she can just rule on it whenever she can. she took it under advise immaterial and she will eventually reject it. the bigger issue is, when she comes out with the ruling on dismissing the case, if she decides to dismiss the matter in the middle of trial, then double jeopardy attaches, and the jack smith is not able to go to the 11th circuit and get it overturned. that is the problem. so right now jack smith won a temporary victory because she said, well, i'm going to deny your motion to dismiss, but i'm going to allow trump to raise it again later. and if he does -- and he will raise it again later, and if then judge cannon decides to rule for trump, then jack smith is s.o.l., that's a technical legal term, ana. so that's the problem here. so let's not chock it up to a victory. so far, judge cannon has been giving trump and his legal team pretty much all that they have wanted. >> judge cannon did seem skeptical, though, about at least the second argument to dismiss the one about presidential records act, danny, do we have any sense, though, of how or when she'd actually rule on that, does she have to rule on that motion to dismiss at some point? >> the most common question asked of people like me, lisa, and dave is, how soon can we expect to hear that? the answer is, beats me. because judges can decide these things whenever they like. sometimes, when, for example, it's bush v. gore, the supreme court can move very quickly, other times these things take a long time. i've heard this a lot from criminal defense colleagues, trump may not realize that judge cannon is maybe helping him by denying these motions. what dave said is so significant, is that if, let's say for example judge cannon were to grant both these motions right now, and say motion kbranted the case is thrown out. you know what would happen, the government can still appeal that, it would go up on appeal and probably trump would lose at the appeals courts, but instead, if it goes to trial, and it's a judgment of acquittal, or an acquittal outright by the jury, there are no comebacks, that is the end of the case. so, some of my more conspiratorial minded colleagues in the criminal defense bar were contacting me and saying, hey, she's helping him, now, obviously, i don't take that view that she's actively helping them, but procedurally the net effect by denying these motions may ultimately be better for trump, may be better for trump ultimately she denies these motions now, preserves his right to appeal them later on down the road but opens up the opportunity to raise those same arguments, she literally said so at trial, and move them closer to an acquittal. and from that, there is no appeal. >> this is all so fascinating, i feel like a law student every day. that we do these stories. thank you all so michigan, dave aronberg, danny cevallos, and lisa rubin for offering your expertise and guiding us. next up, as we follow the breaking news out of georgia this morning, the trump team's new plan to use the courtroom to the campaign's advantage. ned's plaque psoriasis. he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. otezla can help you get clearer skin. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. so this is pickleball? 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relationship began, he also mentions willis's speech in church, and says we will use all legal options available as we continue to fight to end this case, which should never have been brought in the first place. now, this is the legal response, we're still waiting for the campaign and also to hear from the former president himself, but what this says, and what we can expect, based on sort of the pattern of response and behavior that we've seen, this is not over. it's not over for fani willis, and it's not over for the former president and his team, ana. >> this case is far from over, for sure, at this point. jonathan, you have some new reporting, some new insight into how the legal cases are affecting trump's political strategy, especially as we enter the general election, aides telling nbc news their plan is to minimize the damage of having the candidate in court up to four days a week, as that mush money trial gets going, walk us through the campaign's thinking here. >> it's better for him to be on trial in four separate cases, not to mention the civil cases, then than to not be as he campaigns for president. but they are trying to make lemonade out of lemons, as one source put it, and what they're basically going to do is a two-prong strategy, one is effectively what's aimed at the base, which is to have him go to these -- go to these hearings, to go to the trials, that's been very good for him in fund-raising, you saw it help him in the primary and it will continue to keep his base fired up. on the other hand, you're going to see him go out on the campaign trail when there are breaks, either on weekends or the few weekdays he may have off, and basically prosecute the case that he is a victim of persecution by prosecution, and also more importantly make policy contrasts with joe biden. so go out there and talk about what he thinks the biden administration is failing at, and what he would do as a prescription to fix that. so, we're going to see mostly the trial stuff, mostly the talk about him being treated unfairly on the -- you know, on the trial dates in court, and mostly policy on the campaign trail when he's able to get out. >> i thought it was really interesting in your reporting, jonathan, that some of the thinking around the strategy here is that they don't necessarily even need to make his legal woes a campaign weapon, but they do believe they can muddy the waters and kind of neutralize his legal woes in the minds of voters, explain. >> yeah, what they believe is that there's an opportunity here to at least try to blunt the case against him that, obviously, democrats are making, and certainly prosecutors in various places are making that he's a criminal, so what they want to do is try to at least neutralize that or they don't think they're -- they don't think it's a positive for him to go out there and say i'm on trial, a bunch of people in the country believe guilty of crimes and at the same time they think that by addressing this 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(inner monologue) another destination wedding?? why can't they use my backyard!! with empower, we get all of our financial questions answered. so we don't have to worry. empower. what's next. with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. we're back with more on when unprecedented meets unprecedented as the never before seen criminal and civil charges against a former president and current candidate are now colliding with the unpredictability of the electoral politics, joining us now stuart stevens, lincoln project senior adviser and also served as chief strategist for the romney 2012 campaign and with us, ashley, a former communications director for vice president harris. good to have you both here with us. stuart, your reaction to this ruling in georgia. >> i think they're living in fantasy here. this was a small set of vectors -- voters who voted who the republican primary who are of the opinion donald trump should be president, this is some sort of deep state conspiracy. but most americans are going to find repugnant that republicans nominated a guy who is out on bail, who has been found liable of sexual assault, new york jury, that a judge described as rape. that is a republican nominee. so, look, i've worked in campaigns that have bad facts before but this is going to soak in and really disturb people and i think it's going to have a definite crushing impact on the trump campaign. >> ashley, stuart referenced the civil cases where trump has had to pay e. jean carroll for defamation related to sexual abuse of e. jean carroll found by a civil case. this georgia case is a criminal case, and now we know, fani willis can stay on the case, as long as she case as long as she rid of her special prosecutor nathan wade. what are your thoughts on this? >> the other thing the judge found was no conflict of interest. so this is good for fani willis and her case. this is going to be a constant reminder to voters of who donald trump is. donald trump is now facing charges and is in court for the most egregious crimes against american democracy trying to overturn an election. an msnbc poll told us that 53% of independent voters believe that he committed these crimes, the most e egregious crimes against american democracy. so this puts donald trump and his violations of democracies center stage. >> stuart, what do you think about jonathan allen's new reporting that trump campaign is planning to use legal woes to his political advantage by trying to show president biden as someone trying to imprison his political candidates. >> i sat in those rooms you try to come up with something like that. you play the hand that's dealt you. this is part of a larger republican now. you can't say it's a trump effort. it's a republican effort to attack the foundations of civil society in america. i once joined a party that believed law and order now they're attacking the justice department, the legal system, it's attacking judges, it's attacking individual jurors, it's attacking prosecutors, it's attacking the fbi. this is not a law and order party. and i don't believe that anyone is going to blame joe biden for the fact that donald trump is facing trials in multiple jurisdictions. it's just not going to parse. you know, republicans used to have a thing that we accused democrats of being victim shopping. probably wasn't true but we said it. now the republican party is the ultimate victim's party, like they're out to get us. this is not something that's a set of values that i think most americans are going to feel comfortable with. >> i hear your disgust stuart, yet look at how trump just dominated the primaries. so his grievance, his amplification of the legal woes he's facing. his visits to all these courtrooms, it worked for him in the primaries at least. >> i think it's like jumping off a 100 story window in a 100 story building and you're floor 50, everything is going great. see what happens when he hits the ground. donald trump has appealed to a small group of voters who majority of them do not believe they live in a country which the president of the united states is legally elected. think about that. that is a very weird world to be living in. that's an alternative universe. they don't believe the commander in chief is commander in chief legally. that's not how most americans feel. i think they look at this and think that donald trump is a guy who lost president and has done a lot of things that they don't like. there are issues about, you know, joe biden that aren't perfect. but i think this is going to end up being a pretty fundamental test of values and i believe what we said in the republican party that character counts for people. there aren't teachers, coaches, boy scout, girl scout leaders that say it's good to be indicted, good to be on trial. you should aspire to that. that's just not where americans are, i don't think it's going to work to portray this guy as a victim. >> when you put it that way, think of how parents are talking to their children it seems glaring you wouldn't want your child to emulate somebody who is convicted of certain at least civil crimes and who is, you know, accused of so many things. and yet, ashley, coming back to that idea that republicans seem to be really motivated by this and trying to help trump fight the system, how can the biden campaign counter the former president's strategy to try to use it to his advantage in some ways, these legal woes? >> to stuart's point the republican party isn't what it used to be. it's wholly owned and a subsidiary of donald trump, his family organization, the maga movement, it's no longer what it used to be. here's what i think is getting lost and what the biden campaign is going to play up. donald trump has tremendous amounts of weaknesses and vulnerabilities going into november. his fund-raising numbers are under water. the republican party has had the worst fund-raising it's had in a decade. can't expand his base beyond the maga base. nikki haley just got 30% in georgia, she didn't campaign in georgia. and he's going to be in court. so the biden campaign believes they have the advantage here and they'll continue to lean on the facts but the republican party alarms are going off, lack of enthusiasm they have a problem going into november. >> thank you both. i appreciate the conversation. >> thank you. >> happy friday. that does it for us today. i'll be back here at 1:00 eastern filling for chris jansing. i'm ana cabrera. jose diaz-balart picks up after this. cabrera.. jose diaz-balart picks up after this (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. 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