reached the number of delegates to secure the nomination. it happened on the very same night that president joe biden clinched the democratic nomination which means the stakes are set us before. as donald trump will be on the ballot, the 2024 election will not be defined by big policy debates or disagreements between the two candidates and parties of which there are many, but rather by a very basic question whether or not we want our democracy to continue as we know it. because donald trump has made it clear in public speeches and announcements he will take a wrecking ball to the rule of law, he will pardon the january 6th insurrectionists. and he will serve in his own words, this is a quote, a dictator on day one. voters who go to the polls in a few months have to answer the question whether the 248-year democratic experiment sees its birthday? that choice has been laid out in stark detail, voices not just on the left or center, but also the far right. remember this, from liz cheney. >> you said we're sort of sleep walking into dictatorship in united states. dictatorship, that what we would have if we re-elected donald trump? >> i think it's a very, very real threat and concern. and i don't say that lightly. >> it seems crazy to ask this and even crazier to fathom it, do you believe if donald trump would be re-elected he would seek a second term? >> he would never leave office. >> you think he would try to stay in power forever? >> absolutely, he's already done it once. >> we're seeing the warnings about donald trump are reaching voters and they're acting on it. that shows up in primary result after primary result in state after state after state. well, the democratic primary season has witnessed some voters expressing concerns about the administration's middle east policies in the form uncommitted vote. take a look at what happened in georgia. nikki haley suspended her presidential campaign last week but captured 20,000 votes on election day. and 77,000 votes overall including early and absentee ballots. former south carolina governor fared best in metro counties where trump has long struggled, tallying roughly 40% of the republican vote in dekalb and cobb counties. 40,000 votes on election day for a candidate who dropped out a week ago. all in context of republicans protesting trump. trump led georgia by 779 votes because he tried to get brad raffensperger to cook up the books and quote, find me more than 108,000 votes. and republicans' concerns about fitness to office. we start with political reporter for the "atlanta journal-constitution" and msnbc political contribute greg blewstein joins us, msnbc political analyst david jolly is back with me at the table. msnbc national affairs analyst, john heilemann is here. democratic strategic and director of hunter college, basil smikle is back. greg, let me start with you, anyone surprised about nikki haley's strong showing last night? >> not really. it's partly because of georgia's early voting was three weeks. for some of those cast their ballots clearly before she dropped out of the race. but when we saw 20,000 or so republicans cast their ballots for nikki haley on election. there are those republicans who said yes, i voted for her knowing she's not in the race, kind of stick it to donald trump. will they stay on the sideline, will they vote for joe biden or a third party candidate? that's the question in georgia where there was a thin margin just a few years ago. >> the baseline with groups republican voters against trump is starting -- there's so much wind at their backs electorally. there were never trump republicans with voices on platforms eight years ago and four years ago. but it wasn't a grassroots thing. the way it is now. can i show you some of these voter testimonials. >> yes, please. >> donald trump has caused considered damage to our democracy about the 2020 election. what the united states is good is the beacon of transfer of power. that to me was destroyed january 6. >> trump stating that he wants to overturn the constitution should be clinging bells and alarms for everyone in this nation. >> the beginning of the term would be spent with donald trump figuring out how to get even with those people who did not support him while he was out of office. it would probably involve a pardon of everyone involved in january 6th which would, in essence say, you can stage an insurrection in the united states as long as the right president is in the white house. >> so, you and covered the waco speech the day it happened -- >> i was present for the waco speech. >> you were there, but you were on my show. >> yes, it was a weekend thing. it was one of the most horrifying things i've ever seen in politics. >> me, too. the point of being at waco, the difference between what you're seeing from republican voters now and what you saw in '16, is that in '16, we were learning most of the worse things from trump in scoops in "the new york times" and "washington post." now, it's all stuff that he says to his rallygoers from the podium. to hear it come out of the mouths of voters is incredible. >> trump was -- amazing to say this, given how ubiquitous he was, even before he ran, he has 100% name recognition but there was still some attempt throughout the '16 campaign to sort of deny, when people would sort of point at things he said, point out the implications of what they were, a lot of the substance that relates to dictatorship wasn't even there. we were focused on racism and misogyny. it would pop out, you'd catch trump at something and he would let it slip. now, does he not try to reel those back, but he also comes out and says things about his penchant for being authoritarian. it is an extraordinary thing. i will say, you know, the question, and this is a good question for greg and basel, and anybody on the panel, in georgia, it's a state that i think if you -- if you put the people in the white house political operation on sodium pentothal, they would say a battleground state that they feel worse. they feel not great there. they're seeing exactly as what we're seeing, republican reflects, brian kemp republicans, a lot of them in georgia. but they also look at the american voters and see what's been happening with biden at least in the polling, consistently in the last couple of years. you have a 10% decline african american turnout in georgia, you've got a problem. they're both weighed down by different things. biden is more fixable because unlike trump who proudly announces himself as authoritarian and biden can do work to unify that part of his base. but they have political baggage they're carrying in. that's why georgia is such tremorous state. >> you look at a strategy point of view, donald trump has done a lot to shrink his base, not expand it. and the rule for joe biden, when you look at the nikki haley numbers, that's really what it's saying. it's saying there's an opportunity for biden to go after it. you said this last week, we're watching the democratic coalition in this time. and it's interesting if you talk to republicans, they'll say we'll get more black folks. we'll get working class voters. if you listen to the teamsters union that biden just met with, you have their leadership saying, you know what, he actually did pretty well among our members. and rank and file that will vote for trump. and he's doing well with our members, but in part, as you were talking about before, whatever concerns folks have about joe biden, but he's be fixable in bringing those issues back to the table. he's done quite well with that. and i'll make my point. even after the trump team they're going after african american voters. the rnc just shut down its minority outreach office. that office included outreach to veterans. so if you're doubling down on the homogeneity of your party, how do you intend to build support? >> the issue is not that trump is going to get black votes. it's really the question whether black folks are staying home. if you watched those voices on katy tur's hour, you saw them, i voted for trump, i'm not going to. that's the challenge for biden. it's not is he going to lose a bunch of black voters. but maybe this year, not this year. >> we know from general milley, he believes that women and men who serve are suckers. and those were put to the most senior general whosoever served in the executive branch of the government. i want to show you more of what big money is going behind in terms of making sure people know, that the critique, i guess the lesson, same on me, fool me a third time, we all get what we get. the messenger, it's best coming from people in the republican party in this instance, he served trump up close and personal. this is another republican voters against trump. that shows trump's most senior staffers criticizing him. >> in 2016, you said i'm going to surround myself with only the best and serious people. >> we're going to use the best people. >> we'll have one of the greatest cabinets ever. >> nikki haley. >> he was thin skinned and easily distracted. >> your former secretary of state mike pompeo is not supporting. >> we can't have those with fragile egos. >> your vice president is against you. >> president trump endangered my family. >> john bolton is not supporting you. >> donald trump is not fit to be president. i have been in those rooms when he's met with those leaders, they think he's a laughing fool. >> whatever, it's fine. >> attorney general bill barr says you can't be president again. >> it's a therapy session. >> secretary of state rex tillerson. >> a man pretty undisciplined. >> or acting chief of staff, mick mulvaney. >> to be beat. >> you're all right! >> a person that has nothing but content to the democratic institutions, our constitution and the rule of law, god help us. >> a clearly irrational man. >> the terrorist of the 21st search. >> never be president -- >> it's a bad idea, right? >> i can watch that for 45 minutes. and the thing, david jolly, it could have gone on 45 minutes. i remember, i don't know the year, might about '17 or '18, we put on the wall, all of the calls coming from inside the house, it might have been from the anonymous op-ed and before we knew it was our friend miles taylor, but all the stories about trump came from trump white house officials. i suppose it's a good thing they're all out and warning us. it is new and different, though. and it is certainly new and different at this point in the general election. >> well, i think the consequences are as great as ever. because we do know what donald trump will do in a second term. he's somebody, look, if you go back to that original liz cheney interview, to expand on that theme, i think it's fair to ask the american people, does donald trump believe there's any limits to his presidency, to his power if he returns to the white house? what we've seen, absolutely not. he's made that argument in court now. with the messaging you just played, that ad, if you're opposed to donald trump that is like a drug that you just played. it affirms your resentment and ainge over donald trump treatment of the country. the reality is that ad is for a very small group of voters, the word "coalition" used by basel before, as much as it feels like a mandate election about the future of democracy and joe biden will make that argument. practically speaking it's a coalition election. it's a coalition of main lines, progressives, independents but soft republicans persuadable, preechl performing republican voters who say i simply can't vote for donald trump again. i think the real question is how many of those people are actually persuadable, or is everything baked into this race? i mean, this is a rematch where people know the issues and they know what's on the ballot. so, how do you move a voter this election is a really intriguing question. i think the only dynamics that could change between now and november. the criminal conviction, we have not seen what that would do. which way would it move voters, some say it will move towards biden, but what if it moves voters towards trump? does the economy, the opinion of the economy, does it change, does it improve or get worse? and question of the border, that democrats have been upinside down on and joe biden has historic opportunity to take control of that issue. to me, those are the top three unknowns that could penetrate an election where everything seems baked in. >> david jolly, when you look at 20,000 people going out and voting against trump. 77,000 people voted for nikki haley but 20,000 did so yesterday, what does that say to you? >> many of those will return home to donald trump. nikki haley herself probably will return home. we'll wait to see what she says. but we also know that many of those will join the biden coalition. i think those are similar to the voters we saw show up in '18, '20 and '22. i think the polls should be more encouraging for joe biden right now because those people don't necessarily poll in favor of joe biden, but they vote in favor of joe biden. those voters who are hard to poll that say in the face of trump and trumpism, i'm going to be part of the democratic coalition. it's remarkable they have stuck through three consecutive election cycles and i anticipate the voters will be there for biden for a fourth. >> we do have to sneak in a quick break. i do want to show everyone how joe biden is speaking to the swath of the electorate. certainly more visible to us in this cycle than the last two. we'll keep this going. also to come to us, ahead, the judge in fulton county, georgia, today, tossing out three counts against donald trump. the sweeping racketeering case was not among them. that still stands against him and his codefendants. we'll look at what this means for the georgia interference case going forward. plus, republicans have been given a new strategy to try out when it comes to the issue of the election year. that's abortion. talk more, not less. democrats responding to that, yes, please, more. later in the broadcast, the death of elections, it is the favored tool of aspiring autocrats. we'll talk more about what's being done to safe guard our democracy for those actively working against it. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. only unitedhealthcare medicare advantage plans come with the ucard — one simple member card that opens doors for what matters. what if we need to see a doctor away from home? 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[ applause ] >> ever since elected to office, i ask all of you, without regard to party, to join together and defend democracy. remember your oath of office defending all threats, foreign and domestic. respect fair and free elections. make clear political violence has absolutely no place in america. >> we're back with greg, david, john and basel. greg, i would pose to you, brad raffensperger defeated the people after the insurrection. in 2022, democracy became a top-three voting issue, i don't believe that's ever happened since the question asked -- replaces -- i think it was one, two and three for most voters and some independents. what is the dynamic, what is the hangover, if any, for the events of january 6th in states like georgia? >> states like georgia, the election trial is still going on right down the street from where i am right now, we're waiting on a ruling from judge mcafee on the future of that case. there are still a lot of republicans who will lie about the election in 2020 and propel those lies but you also have that hangover of those like secretary of state brad raffensperger who notably, raffensperger sent me a statement that he's staying neutral. he's not endorsing donald trump or joe biden. and governor kemp, i asked him who he was going to support, he would not tell me who he voted for on friday. gave a tepid response to donald trump i asked why, because he's better than joe biden. simple as that. and would he campaign for donald trump? he would not answer the question. >> lingering, people killed, the first person to stand up on the microphones and say somebody's going to get shot. i think that we have to be humble enough to acknowledge that there's a lot we don't know about what's going to happen in the next eight months. i think it was not known that joe biden was going to mention his predecessor 18 times in the state of the union. it was not known that one of the effects of the january 6 public hearings would bump democracy, but the first time in our country's electoral history. it is not known what the impact in terms -- to what john is saying, not just whenever you cross over, i think that's say behavior. voting is a behavior, campaign operatives like you have been, voting is one taking it away and giving it to somebody else. but a lot of elections are swayed by who goes to the states. this is all about republicans that simply don't have time on election day or with absentee voting to smear and denigrate the act of voting which a question as well. we don't know what the impact of liz cheney. i had somebody on, in oklahoma who is only surrounded by trump-loving republicans. he wrote an op-ed, and he read liz cheney's book and he's now a man without a country. >> i like this campaign, i can think i like this person, let me go out and actually do the work for the person. that's a difficult process that actually costs money for every voter that has to engage in that process. so, yeah, that's a huge unknown. but one of the things i think came out of an earlier comment is really critical. if donald trump is running for president of the united states, who is going to stand with him and campaign with him? operationally, that's quite important. that shows other voters that you have a team and people willing to cosign all that you're doing. i wonder with everything you said in the tease, and for all of what we're going to see about election interference, there have been swatting calls and issues of intimidation last year. that's going to have an impact. you know, who is going to stand with donald trump? and if he is a man standing alone, i think joe biden has an opportunity to keep pushing that, blow out donald trump, you isolate him. if he's a man standing alone, it makes it more and more difficult for someone to campaign with him, cosign with him and say, yes, that's my guy. if you create that isolation, it leaves democrats an opportunity to have a very different conversation with an independent or certainly, a republican voter, to say turn your intention into behavior and support. >> the issue standing before you what did they say about trump before, i'm sure lindsey graham will stand with him. here's what lindsey graham said about donald trump. >> i'm not going to try to get into the mind of donald trump because i don't think there's a whole lot of space there. i think he's a kook. i think he's unfit for office. he's not a conservative. he's an opportunist. >> never has as much money gone into changing the behavior. not having a vote for donald trump. >> basil's point, he's not going to remain alone. the republican party is devoted to donald trump. he'll be standing -- almost every electoral republican will stand, brian kemp is an unusual cat and brad raffensperger. republican mayor, and other states, they're going to say a lot about donald trump. you know, the effective thing for democrats is to point to what does that tabloid look like and what dot members of congress want it do. you talked early it's not a policy-driven election. it's definitely the case that the core of this election for a lot of people is going to be the preservation of democracy but as you talk about all the time, protecting women's health and reproductive freedom is a number of issues, crime, immigration, even if trump is coherent. even if trump is not going to be arguing policy that we recognize from any presidential campaign of our past lives, whatever the hell those were, what it will be a way for democrats and joe biden to point to there's donald trump and that congressman and that republican, this is what that group believes this is what they want to do to women's health care. >> supreme court. >> this is what they want, supreme court, it's not because biden and trump have a policy debate. but the republican party be monolithic like it. it much easy all the way down the ticket to point to the monolith and say, this is what they all believe, there they are, and this is what we believe. >> and just quickly, it becomes a little harder also for him to help the candidates if he's restocking the rnc. >> right, right. >> with his people. and they're upset because they believe that none of the money that they raise is actually going to help anybody down-ballot. >> it's not. david jolly, president biden seemed aware of this point that john heilemann is making, i think the first eight issues he mentioned in his state of the address, nato. putin. i think most americans don't approve of putin. then you go to nato. trump stands with 10% and about 12% on putin and nato. you go abortion the sixth, that's a 70-30 issue now. if it turns to policy, and that will, to that point, biden certainly has a big majority where he stands. trump can't say the same thing. >> no, exactly right. many of the trump positions are highly unpopular this session. i think the way joe biden has wrapped that neatly, you played the line earlier from the state of the union. of all of the powerful lines, the most powerful line when he said you can't love your country only when you win. here's why, that is not joe biden trying to litigate donald trump's conspiracy theories, january 6th, the november election, whether or not donald trump is a liar or relitigate the facts. he's actually litigating it about donald trump's patriotism. if you can't love your country unless you're in power, that's a question of your patriotism, and i think why that thread works with policy issues as well is this, it is unpatriotic to try to take away somebody in's franchise either by stealing a vote in the general election by trying to quiet it. or all 50 states it's unpatriotic to marginalize people. it's certainly unpatriotic to say we're going to abandon our allies and freedom in the western world. it's unpatriotic to decide that vladimir putin sand strong men that you want to emulate donald trump if you become president? what joe biden is not make it about that, in the election, that's the subtext that question fundamentally donald trump patriotism and it's a fair question given what we know of the last eight years of donald trump. >> donald trump dictator, donald trump against the constitution. he campaigned that. and republican extremism on these issues. some of them value issues, some of them more policy issues that's a powerful template for how you can win an election. he's both an unique threat to himself, but he's also the front person for the whole agenda that is widely unpopular. >> david jolly, your talts are wasted on the broadcast. you should become a national co-chair. having been a candidate yourself and policymaker, you can speak right to voters where they are. thank you for sharing that with us. >> greg, thank you for starting us off. up next, a surprise ruling from a judge overseeing the fulton county interference case. we'll break it down for you, next. introducing, ned's plaque psoriasis. he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. otezla can help you get clearer skin. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? live in the moment. we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story. with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours. the judge in georgia who is overseeing the fulton county d.a.'s sweeping election interference case against the ex-president and several codefendants dismissed six counts of the 41-count indictment. that's judge scott mcafee who said the charges alleging trump and five codefendants illegally to oath of office, quote, contain all the essential elements of the crimes but fail to allege the nature of their commission. the order did not dismiss any rico charges in the case. the judge added this does not mean the entire indictment is dismissed, fani willis' team can take it to appeal. or reintroduce the charges to a grand jury, adding more specifics. all of this, of course, comes ahead of judge mcafee's highly publicized decision on whether the case should be dismissed altogether. joining us harry litman. john and basil are still here. harry, what does this mean? translate. >> not a whole lot, nicolle. it's at the margins. there's six counts in which the defendants have alleged to have the georgia, photo, violate their oath of office. and mcafee says look at the oath of office, it basically says i'll comply with the constitution. it's hard to know what aspect of that, there could be a thousand ways to violate it. in the federal system it would be a nothing berger, where you could give a list of particulars, here's the clause, there's the provision. but in georgia, it doesn't have the option, owe his only option was to throw it out. in terms of what she does now, i think it's probably a good ruling that will hold up on appeal. and would she go into a grand jury and do it all over again? big time implications, my best guess, she'll just swallow and it and take the clause of those six counts and as you say, doesn't really change anything else essential about the case, especially the rico count. and even the conduct, the call to raffenspergerraffensperger, s in, even the charge to violate their oaths. >> obviously, everyone is engaged in tea leaf reading because of the other big decision looming. what's your sense on that? >> first, i don't they're connected. i think he's a work a day judge moving through things. my best guess, the defendants don't have any real case for disqualification. that is likely what his ruling will say. it's a rough chapter for fani willis and there may be rough verb yach in there that may cause her to think, hmm should i make some change that shows we turned the page, for instance, discharging wade. but my best guess is they don't have what it takes to show conflict of interest which is what they need. maybe ethic problems, other incorporates that georgia will look into, but not enough to actually toss her from the case. >> harry, i'd like to import a further analysis from you. i'm going to ask you a question, like the absolute idiot's version what to think about this georgia case. >> yeah. >> there was a time, because we had trump on tape, saying what he said. people said of all of these cases, this is the one most obviously, he's either broken the law, if he hasn't broken the law, the law needs to be changed because that is clearly the guy that is trying to corrupt an election, okay. the giant rico case, the timing of the questions, the fani willis case. is this case, now in your view, is this a case that trump is liable to face legal accountability? or as you look at it from 30,000 feet, no, this is a case that it's going to to be and somehow not the place where we'll get justice related to trump? >> first, john, i think it's solid there. the things they have him doing, the bake plot to basically steal the election remain. but there's always two tracks with trump, there's the merit and the timing. this is a case he didn't dismiss it if he becomes president, but he can put it on ice. my best guess is it won't go forward before november. it's still solid and dangerous for him and some of the other defendants, but, man, it's sprawling and it will take a long time. so it will come down to, if he were to win, what he could do to try to squelch it. in essential charges, there's a there-there. even though in the last months, it feels like the air's gone out of the tires. >> thank you all for spending time with us today. when we come back, democrats promise to keep talking about abortion this election year. now some republicans are saying we should try that, too. i'll show what you that would actually look like, next. everywhere! we're all human, its okay to smell like one. 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[door creaks open] [ominous music] (♪♪) [ding] meanwhile, at a vrbo... when other vacation rentals are just for likes, try one you'll actually like. >> tech: cracked windshield? make it easy and schedule with safelite, when other vacation rentals are just for likes, because you can track us and see exactly when we'll be there. >> woman: i have a few more minutes. let's go! >> tech vo: that's service that fits your schedule. go to safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. -right? i'm great. -you are great. oh, brother. this flea and tick season, get 20% off your first pharmacy order at chewy. if i had all the power right now, let's say i was the governor and had a legislature, we could pass a bill that says you can't have an abortion in north carolina. >> a 10-year-old girl in ohio 6 weeks and 3 days pregnant now has to travel across state lines in indiana to receive an abortion. >> so would you have an exception like that? >> i don't believe a tragic situation should be perpetuated by another tragedy. >> i know you say you support ivf. there's a process if you believe life begins at conception and fertilization, i know you do, do you see that as murder? >> it's something we've got to grapple with. >> i want to use one of my lifelines. it's just a cross-section that could have gone on for ten minutes but that's a cross-section of how republicans aretrying to navigate the fact that they've planted their flag way outside of the mainstream, not just americans, but republicans with health care access. you might be surprised to learn that their campaign strategists just need to hear more of that, republicans saying a 10-year-old rape victim shouldn't have any access to health care. they just need to understand better. "the wall street journal" has the reporting on this. a memo prepared by house republicans campaign arm says republicans have a brand problem, not a policy problem. the memo notes that, quote, many viewers view the party's hopeful opposing abortion under any circumstances when there are actually a variety of positions held by candidates particularly in swing districts, the memo states. the gop's repeated failure to recognize that voters do not like their policy, not just their brand, has radically reshaped voters' behaviors perhaps generationally now around this issue of reproductive health care and abortion rights. "the new york times" reports, new polling about 12% of those in the election. two-thirds said it should be legal in all or most circumstances. joining our conversation, president of reproductive freedom for all, mini timurraju. and join us correspondent for "vanity fair." >> i hate to start with politics and not the woman who are suffering today because of republicans' cave man policies. so, with a nod to and an effort to tie those two things together, let's talk about the fact that republicans didn't count on amanda and the choice movements putting very, very pro life, especially pro the life they lost in their own bodies front and center in this conversation. but the truth is it's nothing less than a tectonic shift in the entire conversation about who should make decisions about women's bodies. >> i've said this before, the longer the bans are in place, the more stories we're hearing and the more this becomes personal for voters. it starts with, i heard this story, and then it's i know someone. and then it's me, right? and that's the theme. so you start with abortion bans. and now it's ivf and birth control. that means almost every american family in this country, has been touched by the crisis brought by the overturning of roe. so i agree it's really important to center the folks most affected by these bans. those folks are primarily women of color, they're not amanda and kay. they're frankly more like britney watts in ohio. we really need to dig in and make sure we're telling all of the stories but at the end the day, more and more americans are seeing themselves in these stories. and that it's fundamentally creating that tectonic shift you just talked about. >> there's also a hidden male vote, i mean, young voters, the gender divide isn't as wide as older voters. and young men don't want to grow up in a world either where it's a crime. >> and i also think there's a lot of anxiety about birth control. these republicans with ivf -- i had my kids through ivf and so did mike pence. that's probably where our similarities end, right? ivf is something that never has really been politicized this way. and it stopped in alabama, now they're back towards the legislation. but be in danger with these republican bans. and then you look at this idea of birth control, and it does seem like, you know, in oklahoma, there's a state bill to ban iuds, right? you see where this is going, and voters see it, too. there's a lot of anxiety about that, as well there should be. >> i have a million more questions for both of you. we have to sneak in a quick break and we'll be back on the other side. a quick break and we'll be back on the other side with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley i bought the team! kevin...? i bought the team! i put it on my chase freedom unlimited card. and i'm gonna' cashback on a few other things too... starting with the sound system! curry from deep. that's caaaaaaaaash. i prefer the old intro! this is much better! i don't think so! steph, one more thing... the team owner gets five minutes a game. cash bros? woo! i like it. i'll break it to klay. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase, make more of what's yours. ♪ you need t-mobile... ♪ ♪ home internet with 5g. ♪ wait! t-mobile has home internet? ♪ what a feeling! ♪ ♪ to have t-mobile now! ♪ is. we're back with minnie and molly. some of the brands are limited to the life of the mother. there's real lived experiences and exceptions in the cases of rape. that's why you have 10-year-olds crossing state lines and now they're going of ivf. how do you manage this growing coalition to keep pace with the growing extremism of the trump republican party. >> the growing extremism of the trump republican party, i just want to sit with that for a second. it's a lot, right?! look, we have to be very, very clear with folks that despite the reporting, and despite the campaign consultants' efforts, and i really thought that cbs morning reporter was brilliant. he really nailed mike johnson without even understanding you got nailed. you belief in life at conception. if you believe that, here are all the natural consequences that emerge the from that, right? and this is why it's so hard for them, but it's also important to remind folks that exceptions are designed not to work. they're political tools, and we've got a couple of supreme court cases coming up that will really starkly illustrate that and help us thread the needle to answer your question on that growing coalition. for example, we've got the mifepristone oral arguments in front of the supreme court in a few weeks. so much for where we support states making these decisions. we don't support states making these decisions. we're trying to institute a backdoor abortion ban and get to the root of abortion bills. and we don't support medical exceptions and emergencies, because that's the root of the case where they were challening the biden administration's rule that emergency physicians should be allowed to provide abortion care in emergency life-or-death situations, in states with abortion bans. so whatever way we do it, whether it's their belief system, their policy positions, the way they're trying to lie and go through the courts to get around the supreme court decision, they're making it very, very clear where they stand. and it is not with american families. >> you know, if you look at the public support for abortion, it's higher than it's ever been in 50 years. and if you look at public approval of the supreme court, it's lower than it's been in 47 years. two very powerful structural assets for democrats and hurdles for republicans. >> roberts knew, right? he didn't really want to overturn roe, because he knew what it would look like. and what we've seen, since roe has been overturned, is that abortion is health care, right? abortion is health care. and i think that watching, you know, the more -- i mean, what mimi said was really smart and really true. the longer these bans are in place, the more we see the effects of them. and the effects of them, a lot of this legislation was not really well thought out. you had bans from previous centuries that were enacted the moment roe fell. and there's just not a lot of thinking. and that's this idea of embryonic personhood, right? nobody's thought through what that means for iuds and the birth control pill. it really is -- >> a clinic operating in a, you know, what clinic is going to operate where they've committed a crime if the power goes out or if something is damaged in transit. none. none. >> it's a lack of thought. and you know there is a real evangelical population that is in this republican party, that's driving the ship. and the rest of the party is along for the ride. >> minnie, molly, thanks both so much for having this conversation. coming up for us, the right to vote is the single biggest thing standing in the way of an autocrat here. so it should be no surprise that donald trump is looking to chip away at that most sacred of democratic rights. we'll bring you that story, next. we'll bring you that story, next [street noise] [car door shuts] [paparazzi taking pictures] introducing, ned's plaque psoriasis. ned, ned, who are you wearing? 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because there isn't any. it does not exist. it never did. the real scam that trump knew it all along. the man you heard from there, though, is interesting. that was brian mock. he's a january 6th defendant. he was sentenced to 33 months in federal prison after he was convicted for assaulting multiple police officers during the insurrection. he and so many other trump supporters were galvanized by the lies spread by donald trump. lies that the election results were fraudulent and that trump was the actual winner. dozens of lawsuits were filed, forensic analysis performed, recount after recount after recount administered, all reaching the same conclusion, there was no fraud. and joe biden was the winner of the 2020 election, in what was the, quote, most secure election in u.s. history, according to chris kreps. you, our beloved is viewers, knew this all along, right? but the reason it matters, the beginning of a general election, is because the big lie is in the political bloodstream now. it's part of the conversation and has been for years. and the fact is, it has not quelled, it hasn't been tamped down at all. in the face of what that defendant said there. zero evidence being produced, which is why we'll keep an eye on it around here. trump has conditioned his supporters to such a degree that they still believe what he says. even without any evidence, after four long years to prove. take a look at the polling coming out of this season's republican primaries. more than half of republican voters in states like iowa and south carolina still today believe that biden was not legitimately elected president of the united states. the spread of unfounded distrust in our election and election systems is strategic. and it's a sign of trump trying to import autocratic practices here in the united states of america, because for an autocrat to rule, the gateway is for the autocrat in waiting to dismantle democratic practices, and the best way to do that is to make voters feel like their votes can't be counted or trusted. make them feel like the actual administering of an election is in and of itself a sham. so that they'll eventually relinquish their voting power or distrust the results of an election. this weekend, one of trump's most favorite autocrats, vladimir putin, is up for re-election in russia. the elections will be held, although the outcome, putin's victory is already known as he faces no legitimate opposition. all of his biggest opponents are either jailed or have fled the country or are dead. while russia's elections may be rigged, those here are not. at least not yet. our democracy still has a pulse and a fighting chance. it is a country that needs to wake up to what's happening on the other side, and the urgent need to safeguard the right to vote, the access to vote, and the right to have your vote counted, an actual result to be accepted, whatever it is. that's where we start the hour, with some of our most favorite and trusted reporters and friends on this topic. voting rights attorney and founder of the site democracy docket, mark elyce is back, plus "new york times" correspondent, nick korsini is here and ben rhodes is back. mark, this is your work, your day-to-day work. tell us how it's going and where things stand. >> it's a challenge. and i don't want to sugar coat it. the fact is that our democracy has been under attack, as you point out, for several years now. good people who administer elections have been driven out. bad people who want to deny elections, some of them are seeping in. we continue to see a never-ending assault on democracy in a republican-controlled legislatures around the country, and we continue to see an assault on democracy through right-wing vigilante organizations that are inspired in many respects by the republican party, coordinated in some instances with the republican party. that are challenging voters, trying to prevent them from voting. right now, stephen miller's organization has a lawsuit in arizona to try to strike a provision of that state's election procedure manual that prevents the harassment of voters. the rnc is also trying to strike down that manual. and just in the last few days, as we've seen the purge at the rnc, you know, chris leseveda, a very professional operative, he said the rnc's new posture as it relates to litigation is much more offensive and less defensive. well, you know, nicole, how much more offensive are they going to be than what we saw in 2020, where they filed 65 lawsuits and my team and i representing president biden and the dnc beat them 64 times. how much more offense are they going to play and what will it mean for democracy? >> and there was no fraud. i know chris a little bit myself and that's been designed for an audience of one, if i may say. let me turn you, nick, in georgia. you, i think, have written some of the -- you've been covering georgia's efforts the longest. and what's interesting about georgia is there are some decent actors in the state. people who have a job of calling trump and saying, no, there was no fraud. you lost, fair and squad. and yet, or but, they supported and backed a voter suppression law that was so offensive to major league baseball that they moved the all-star game to colorado. jon ossoff has introduced some legislation to deal with that. let me show you what he had to say about that. >> nevertheless, the state legislature advanced this legislation, passed a law to drive up the time it takes to wait in line to vote during runoffs, make it so no one can bring you so much as a drink of water while you're standing in line, law these unlimited challenges -- i mean, the fact that people are spending their time filing frivolous challenges to their fellow americans' eligibility to vote should outrage us. and we need to establish, as a matter of federal law, that voters have a say in court, where their rights are infringed, without some specific reason for the restriction and a demonstration that is the least restrictive means of doing so. >> so even in places where the republicans and the democrats said there was no fraud here, there's still been an unbelievable march to roll back access to the polls. talk about where we are, as we aide into another presidential cycle. >> well, we've seen this kind of continued attempt to pass new voting laws, ever since the 2020 election, and it hasn't slowed down. i did a story a few weeks ago about how multiple conspiracy stories that have been debunked, whether they've been about the accuracy of voting machines, the security of the dominion voting software company. you know, there are still bills to try to get rid of tablators and move to hand counts. so this kind of persistence of this movement on the right to believe that elections are either rigged, is still very consistent and is still showing up in legislation. now, we haven't seen much past this cycle, and also, it would be kind of close to the '24 election to have much of an impact, but there are still aspects of this movement that could impact the 2024 election, in particular, efforts to take partisan control over the election apparatus. now, what i mean by that is state legislators that are inherently partisan, have been trying, since the 2020 election, in an accelerated way, but for a while, to take more control over elections and who gets to say, who gets to vote, and how to count them. taking that away from either secretaries of state, or local election officials. it was in the bill in georgia, they filed another one and passed another one that gave them oversight over county election boards, who carry out the vote in georgia. there was a lawsuit in the courts in north carolina, the state legislature in north carolina, tried to take control of the state election board, away from the governor, what happens to be a democrat. the legislature in north carolina is a super majority of republicans. now, that's been knocked down by a court in north carolina, but they could appeal it. so there's still this kind of ongoing effort that's battling over who gets the say over how elections are run. who certifies them, and how we kind of move past the election day into the election certification. and i think that's something that's going to continue this year, and we don't fully understand exactly what shape it will take, but it's certainly something that's active. >> mark, how do you prepare for that? >> there's no easy way. i mean, the fact is, my team and i are in court in 55 different lawsuits, in 19 states. think about how crazy that is. that we have to be defending the right to vote in 55 different lawsuits. the rnc just moments before i got on the air, the rnc just filed another lawsuit in michigan. and you know, one of the things that we have seen among republican election officials is just like we have seen republicans who we thought were mainstream, throw in the towel, and become maga, we're seeing that also here. let me give you an example. you mentioned the state of georgia and brad raffensperger, who, you know, refused to find 11,000 votes. i'm not sure where he would have found them from, but rebuffed that and called it to people's attention. right now, there is a fringe legal theory that has been advanced for -- that has gained no traction historically, to say that private litigants can't enforce section 2 of vote righting act. this would literally gut the voting rights act. 90% or more are brought by private justice. brad refrg is appealing the loss to the 11th circuit court of appeals, saying that there is no private right of action. this would have been an extreme federal society position to take five years ago. it is now a position advanced by brad raffensperger in georgia, who's viewed as more moderate, and supported across the country by 22 of the 27 republican attorneys general. they literally want to gut the last remaining pieces of the voting rights act. so what are we doing? we're litigating, doing the best we can in court, but i have to tell people, unless congress is able to pass, you know, the freedom to vote act and the john and laura lewis advancement act in congress, there will come a point where the courts are not going to be able to do enough. the legislatures are just going to overwhelm this system with bad laws and authoritarianism. and god forbid donald trump becomes president, all bets are off. >> ben, it's important to see this in, you know, sort of on the table in front of a would-be autocrat. and trump guffaws about -- he's laughing at his own supporters, at rallies, when he says, the 2020 election was rigged, primaries haven't been, because i've been living. and he's literally laughing at them, in front of them, on the podium. talk about how destroying trust and faith in elections fits into a slide to autocracy? >> yeah, there's the message and then there's the playbook. and on the message, you know, i always hear the words of alexei navalny in my head. he said to me once, that a guy like putin doesn't need to convince everybody that he's not corrupt. you know, putin -- people know he's corrupt. people know he lies sometimes. but what putin wants to do is convince his supporters that everybody is corrupt. and so you might as well just have a strong man who reflects your grievances front and center. and, you know, i hear that clip you played at the beginning of this, where a man is demanding evidence about fraud that never happened. you know, the onus is not on the people alleging fraud to produce the evidence, the onus is somehow on the fact of there having been a credible election needing to be proven. it reminds me of the birther theory, nicole, which was, somehow the onus is on barack obama to prove that he was in the born in the united states rather than to convince that he wasn't. now, what is this all about? if you have no faith in anything, if it's all grievance and all performance, that allows for the playbook to be pursued. at the far end of that, you have putin, who trump has expressed admiration for, who got elected in a relatively democratic election in 2000, and then went on to methodically remake the russian system. first, you couldn't have the direct election of governors, and now we're at a point where essentially the kremlin has to oppose any candidate opposing putin. and anybody who gets too popular could end up dead like alexny navalny. and there's victor orban who donald trump just welcomed at mar-a-lago, who essentially used a democratic election to change tower, but then changed the voting rules. he allowed ethnic hungarians out of the country and made it harder for his opponents to vote. he made hit harder for any opposition party to get any attention in the media, he made it harder for any organizations that opposed him to operate in hungary. he's slowly been strangling the means of democratic accountability in hungary. that's where donald trump wants to do. these are the people he expresses admiration for. so the playbook is to use this populist performtive message to obscure the fact that what you're really doing is methodically throwing sand in the gears of democracy and remaking this countryautocracy, orban, who was just at mar-a-lago, has built in the last ten years in hungary. >> and ben, in 2016, when trump was an unknown on the world stage, russia was willing to interfere in our elections in the way that they did by hacking into the dnc servers, and i think robert mueller charged six or seven russians with interference. what do you think they're willing to do for someone who's now so out of the closet, as wanting to belong in the orban/putin circle? >> well, he's not only out of the closet in that circle, he's not going to provide ukraine with a dollar of assistance. so for vladimir putin, this is a ticket to essentially winning the war against ukraine. and so i think you're going to see the flood of russian disinformation and turbo charging conspiracy theories pouring gasoline on the fires of our information space, potentially hack and release of e-mails. but the step that people have always been concerned about is, do the russians try to use their cyber capabilities to directly interfere with the election in some manner? to spread misinformation on voting days. to try to interfere be the vote count in some fashion. i think the defenses are going to have to be high this time around, because the stakes are so high for russia, and it's not subtle that trump has aligned himself with this block of autocrats, and putin is at the a vanguard of that block of autocrats. >> we'll have to put some of those theories and questions to fiona hill in our next conversation. for this one, i'm grateful to all of you. thank you so much for starting us off today. wlk, we continue this very conversation on russia and autocracy with the former key witness from donald trump's first impeachment, the former national security member and white house adviser, fiona hill is our guest. we'll ask her about vladimir putin's latest warning to the west that russia is, quote, ready for nuclear war. that's after a very short break. plus, it's a question that the disgraced ex-president's allies are already asking, are you better off today than you were four years ago? we thought we would put that question to our panel today considering that exactly four years ago was the start of the covid pandemic, triggering all kinds of crisis mismanagement by the trump administration and trauma for the world over. we'll have that conversation later in the hour. 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>> well, we're just seeing this right now, nicole. your whole segment is underscoring the fact that we're just not seen as serious. and if we draw a straight line from that first impeachment trial, all the way through until the present day, you know, putin believes that this is a political game. that everything is exploitable, everything is usable, in some fashion, and the united states has lost its edge in national security. it's just become part of a domestic political game for us. and that this gives him some kind of advantage, in all of the discourse and in the ability to push back, and of course, his latest threats on nuclear weapons are a part of that as well. he thinks that we can be quite easily intimidated, and he's sending in very strong signals as we prepare for our own election here. >> i spoke to martin turnbull, former australian prime minister, and i said, what happens to our intelligence agreements, to five eye as intelligence sharing if trump prevails. he's on criminal trial -- should be on trial, for his mishandling of classified documents. and he didn't deny that our allies would have to re-think sharing secrets with us. what are the national security consequences of a second trump term? >> well, look, our allies are also very worried about what happens in ukraine, including the australians, new zealand, all part of the five eyes agreement along with canada and the uk, but the united states in terms of intelligence sharing. so this directly relates to that as well. they're really worried what's happening in ukraine and all of the fights in congress, the statements by people like farmer president trump about, you know, ukraine, just, you know, basically jettisoning it. the loose, you know, discussions about national security issues, all imply that the u.s.-led international order is at an end or coming to an end. that's what putin anticipates. it's what frankly president xi and china and at u.s. antagonist also see. and so there's a general concern here, not just about, you know, security issues and intelligence sharing, but just that the united states has lost its edge. and that all of the other countries are going to have to think to themselves about how they uphold the parts of the international order that have really also guaranteed their position. so australia and new zealand, for example, extraordinarily worried about the implications for the indopacific, just as many of our european partners are very worried about the implications for european security. >> if trump had gone to a lab and manufactured through ai someone who could most perfectly carry out an agenda in this country that supports his, could he come up with anyone better than trump? >> no. i don't really think so, although, you know, there's an awful lot of other people auditioning for the same kind of position, because we've got, you know, so many members of congress at the moment, you know, who are really into kind of political performance, and not really thinking through the implications of what they're doing and saying at home, on the international stage, and how that will undercut our own domestic security issues. because, you know, the united states has prospered over this whole period since the end of world war ii, and over the whole period of the cold war, and since then, because of our leading role in international affairs, because other countries look up to us, it has actually had huge benefits for our own economy, for our investments in the united states, for the strength of the dollar, and it all gets undermined when people are frankly just so capricious with the way that they play with u.s. power. and that, you know, eventually will have a huge impact on us. and so for putin, this is just the ideal situation. everybody is fighting with each other. and we're just knocking ourselves out. and you know, leading, you know, to a situation where he and others can just exploit it. >> you know, for a long time, people who criticized trump, especially from the republican party, were on an island alone. now the island is very, very, very, very crowded. and it includes a lot of your former colleagues from the trump white house. john bolton wrote a book and has since gone further. general kelly has put his name to some of the most scathing indictments to trump's police chief belief of the men and women who currently serve in the united states military, thinks they're suckers. other generals, other national security advisers, other secretaries of defense, other secretaries of state. do you believe that the most damaging indictments of his lack of fitness to serve have to come from the people who saw it up close in the sit room and in the tank briefings and what not? >> well, sadly, it seems to be the case at the moment, when you're looking at the base of support for former president trump, which seems unmoved. we're also starting to see members of congress suddenly deciding he's going to leave early, and making a rather dramatic announcement. someone who's dedicated to the cause of conservatism and has been a card-carrying member of the tea party. so you're even fighting that this is going too far for, you know, members of congress who have been very loyal to the party agenda. but i just don't know at this stage what it takes to get that message across. it seems that he's impervious with the indictments. you know, just every messaging that we're getting here, that this is not seeming to shift the political dial at all. obviously, you know, so many of us have been speaking out for some time, but as you said, again, i'm at a little bit of a loss for words at this point as to what it is going to take. >> we've been looking at this question of an american autocracy, and putting it before our viewers and policy makers like yourself. you know, could it happen here? if trump's re-elected, does america stop being what america has been? >> well, just for the outside world, that's for sure. there's no question about that. and i've spent a lot of time in europe over the last calendar year and again and again, people are saying, just what's happened to the united states. it's not just president trump, but another kind of manifestations of domestic discord about the states being pitted against a whole host of issues, they just see an awful lot of weakness in the standoffs that we're having here. you know, and internally, you know, that often -- that does seem to be the case, too. the last bastion of institutional, i would say, pressure on president trump in terms of containing some of the things that he's said quite openly, that he wants to do at this point, is the judiciary. both at the federal level and at the state level. and we're watching, i guess, with bated breath now to see how the supreme court rules on certain issues. but also, whether some of the cases at the federal level go ahead in georgia and elsewhere. so, look, it's really down to the judiciary at this particular point for the institutional hold here. and you know, as we've heard talked about in the previous segments, when we see would be autocrats and successful autocrats getting ahead, it's really when they manage to impinge on the judiciary. putin completely controls the judiciary, and russia, you know, others have made steps in other settings, too. that's what we should be watching in addition to the behavior of members of congress and what happens in the elections itself. >> fiona hill, so good to talk to you, it is a privilege. thank you so much for joining us on this today. we hope we can continue to call on you in the coming months. >> thanks, nicole. thank you. >> thank you. when we come back, it was four years ago today that life as we knew it changed dramatically, not just here, but around the world. covid was declared a national emergency on this day four years ago, and what followed was a stunning chapter of mismanagement on the part of the trump white house and administration. so the ex-president and his allies might have wanted to think twice before actually putting this question out there this time, are you better off now than you were four years ago? uh, yeah. our political panel weighs in on that next. yeah our political panel weighs in on that next. website, even social posts... in minutes! -how? -a.i. 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the first time elise stefanick's ever made me laugh. joining our conversation, ashley parker is here. ashley had a by line on most of those extraordinary stories about this era. with me at the table, eddie glaude, and the founder of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america, host of the independent americans podcast, paul rykoff is back. i'll start with you, because we had a segment called lives well lived. and sometimes my old script comes up at the end. and it still gives me a lump in my throat to remember the people that died. and it started, because i knew a couple of people who died in march. and i said, to a couple of friends, one was in the trump administration, actually, one was someone my father knew, trump supporter, ironically, maybe, maybe not. maybe we'll do something. just put a name to something that's happening in everyone's life. but even in the beginning, everyone knew someone who was impacted. and before we get to the political, there was something so personal about all of the fear and all of the pain and all the death four years ago. >> i remember breaking down on your show, as i talked about my friend, charlie, who passed away from covid. my golf partner, as it were. you know, what we witnessed in that moment was the privatization of grief. there was no -- there were no public rituals to acknowledge that people were losing loved ones. people were dying alone. people couldn't even have wakes, couldn't march the second line in new orleans. so people didn't die right. and so what you were doing with the show was kind of at least acknowledging, all right, the human element beyond the kind of circus of barnum & bailey coming out and calling us all into the ring. and we couldn't even marshal the kind of patriotism that the moment required from us. and i'm from the water, and when people don't die right, they don't stay in the ground, as i said on your show. they haunt. so i think the grief, my own grief, i was thinking about charlie and larry as i was walking my dog yesterday, still lingers. all right, there are empty chairs all over the country, still. i remember, somewhere someone would put a break on all of the bullshit. there would be something that would make him normal, that would make him act normal. and a lot of people hoped because our lives depended on it that covid would be it. and your colleague, bob woodward's tapes reveal, and your own stories reveal that it wasn't. he lied, his inability to tell the truth haunted him. his inability to care about anybody other than himself haunted him. and his maniacal need to look stronger than the virus and all the lives he told about his own brush with death when he got covid. it all accrued in his political defeat in his own attempt to be re-elected. >> it sure did. i was struck, i remember one point during that devastating year for the nation. this was a little bit in when he began holding those news conferences, every evening around dinner time. they were terrified in a moment when they needed leadership and contempt and information about the most up-to-date science. and those news conferences also agreed to his disadvantage, because they regularly tuned in, looking for one thing and they've got of him suggesting that we could inject disinfectant. they got him sort of the rallies or the readings were great and not understanding that the ratings were great because terrified citizens were desperate for information. and that was something that voters had in their minds when they went to the polls in november. and they chose the promise of biden, which was calm and competency, and compassion. >> you know, this was also a thing, and you know, elise stefanick is a lot of things. stupid isn't one of them, but high on her own supply might explain why she asked this question. you better off than you were four years ago. i think so much of this became complicated, and, you know, to boost or not to boost. to mask or not to mask. and it became personal. and i think that that's a tougher conversation, but are you better off than you were four years ago? that's up and down, straight up, of course we are. >> four years ago, our country essentially went to war. and we were attacked, and we looked to our leaders as our allies and friends around the world were being attacked, and we looked to our leaders to take us through it. and in that moment, trump was faced with the question of what kind of wartime president will you be? and we've now seen. he failed at that test. it was his 9/11 moment, just like bush, and he failed spectacularly to take our country through this wartime moment. and i view it in that context, because we're still grieving. there's still trauma. i've dealt with war for 20 years. and the impacts of war stay with you for a lifetime. and even now, we haven't faced that trauma, that loss. we haven't had a national mourning. and i think that's actually biden's strength. he has an opportunity not just to look back, but say, where do you want to be four years from now? you saw what he did, you saw what i did. which one of us do you want to take us through you this next war that we may not even be able to anticipate. and who can take us through that morning and try to find a better place in the days ahead. lst there's so much packed into it, but if you think about it, a commander in chief taking a nation through a wartime moment, he failed. >> we have to sneak in a break, but there's so much to say about the trauma. i think it manifests in our politics. i think it explains why no one gets above 44%. people are still so traumatized and so angry, and in so much pain about that experience and about everything that came with it. no one's going anywhere. we'll all be right back. anywhe. we'll all be right back. ♪♪ ugh! nope! try my old spice you can use it on your pits, chest, and even, your... toes? [both] oh that's fresh! ♪♪ ♪ old spice whistle ♪ are you taking the right multi-vitamin? with new chapter, you get excellent quality, organic ingredients, and fermentation. fermentation? yes. feel the difference with 20 plus nutrients your body can absorb. so you can do you. learn more at newchapter.com. only at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. your body can absorb. our financial planning tools and advice can help you prepare for today's longer retirement. hi mom. that's the value of ownership. the face mask, as i -- it goes through air, bob. that's always tougher than the touch. you know, touch, you don't have to touch things, right? but the air, you just breathe the air, and that's how it's passed. and so that's a very tricky one. that's a very delicate one. it's also more deadly than your -- you know, even your strenuous flus. you know, people don't realize, we lose 25,000, 30,000 people a year here. who would ever think that? >> i know. it's much -- forgotten -- >> pretty amazing. and then i say, well, is that the same thing -- >> what are you able to do for -- >> this is more deadly. this is 5% versus 1% and less than 1%, you know, so this is deadly stuff. >> i don't need to remind you that this doesn't have any resemblance to anything that trump was saying at those press conferences that we talked about. this is what our friends at the maddow blog write in response to stefanick's comments. the nation's uninsured rate got better under biden. the supply chain challenges got better under biden. the cost of many prescription drugs got better under biden. infrastructure investments got better under biden. crime rates have gone down under biden. domestic manufacturing got better under biden. the united states global standing soared after biden replaced trump in the white house. these aren't opinions, they're just what happened. and you have everyone from john kelly to fiona hill warning that basically, we stopped being america, that the democratic experiment could end in november, if trump is re-elected. is re-elected. what is stefanik actually trying to say? >> well, as you said it's a common question that a presidential campaign would pose. the challenge for both candidates, frankly, is -- is for trump to make the case that that's actually true, that things were better under him. and one thing he benefits from it's worth noting is a sort of amnesia of what those four years were like even what that last final year was like. i mean sometimes when i go back and i'm looking for something and i read a story, i sort of can't believe that all of these things occurred in a single day or, you know, what transpired in a single week, and i'm a journalist. i traffic in the news professionally, and so most voters are sort of -- there's an amnesia, and that benefits former president trump. and biden's challenge and also his theory of case is once it is as it just became an official head to head contest between these two presumptive nominees, it will be clear who trump was and who he will be, and voters will remember. >> this whole thing of amnesia is also a thing that happens after trauma to protect. >> absolutely. you forget on purpose. you forget so you can get up in the morning. what's so annoying and unsettling and enraging about stefanik is she's asking the question and she really doesn't care about the debt. they don't care about the dead, the thousands of people who died pause of his incompetence. they don't care. they don't care. and part of the question is not about, you know, are we better -- were we better off four years ago and looking at the economic metrics. it's a cultural war question. it's that were you better when he was in office, when you felt like you were back in control of the nation? it's a way in which you appeal to the grievance in order to highlight, inflame. which means she doesn't give a damn about what happened a year ago -- i mean four years ago on this day. see, i think it's important for us to understand in that sense. >> and to decode it. we're going to give you a chance to do that. we have to sneak in a quick break first. we'll be right back. have to sn break first. we'll be right back. s okay to s. 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