Transcripts For MSNBCW Chris 20240704

Headquarters in new york city. The grand shakeup. A stunning move in the Georgia Elections case against donald trump. But its not about whether d. A. Fani willis stays or goes. The judge dismissing six counts in the sweeping racketeering indictment including three against the former president. What led to the decision . And what it means for trump and his codefendants. Plus The Last Time America pitted the same pair of president ial nominees against each other two elections in a row, gas was a quarter, a burger was less, and donald trump and joe biden were just kids. Now americans have the rematch most say they never wanted but voted for anyway. And it ramps up the veepstakes for trump. What the price of admission could be. And one storm washes away more than half a Million Dollars worth of investment. What an Oceanfront Community is now asking for after watching its brand new protective sand dune disintegrate. A lot to get to, but we start with that Breaking News out of georgia. Judge scott mcafee throwing out three of the 13 criminal counts against donald trump, adding a new dose of uncertainty to a case that already has a ton of it. In all, mcafee dismissed six counts against trump and others, charges that they had solicited georgia officials to violate their Oaths Of Office. Now, two of those charges are related to evidence that to a casual observer seemed strongest. So look. All i want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state and flipping the is a great testament to our country. Now, its important to note that call from trump to Georgia Secretary Of State Brad Raffensperger has not been tossed but heres what the judge wrote. The courts concern is less that the state has failed to allege sufficient conduct of the defendants. In fact, it has alleged an abundance. However, the lack of detail concerning an essential legal element is in the undersigneds opinion, as in the judges opinion, fatal. So it leaves d. A. Fani willis with two options. Appeal the ruling or resubmit the case to a grand jury. Even as she waits to hear if the judge will even allow her to stay on the case, a decision that is expected soon. I want to bring in harry litman, former u. S. Attorney and former Deputy Assistant attorney general during the clinton administration. Matthew dowd is senior msnbc political analyst. Nbcs Vaughn Hillyard has been following this case for us. And lisa rubin is an msnbc legal correspondent. Both vaughn and lisa are here with me on set. Okay, harry, please explain in more detail about why the judge said these charges had to go, because in legalese, im going to read it again, he said, the lack of detail concerning an essential legal element is fatal. What happened here . Okay. The essential legal element is how exactly they violated their oath of office. So in these six counts it says that defendants tried to push them to violate their Oaths Of Office. Mcafee says look, their Oaths Of Office say one thing only, ill follow the u. S. And georgia constitution. Thats a really big document, and there could be hundreds of ways that you could violate it, and if theyre not sure they cant prepare their defense. In the federal system and most other state systems, chris, it would be easily remedied. The prosecution would just come in and explain, okay, heres how you violated the oath. Heres the clause that they pushed you to violate. It so happens that remedy is not available in georgia, which the judge lamented in a footnote. So now the options are just as you say. She can refile in a new grand jury. She can just drop them. Or she can appeal. I think she may just drop them because the overt act, the evidence itself, remains. The Big Rico Charge remains. Its just these particular charges that say you made State Officials violate their Oaths Of Office and mcafee saying youre just not clear enough about what they did and its too openended. We know the facts but we dont know exactly how they violated the constitution. And thats not enough at this stage. This, lisa, wasnt even on my bingo card, to be honest with you. How unusual is what just happened here, to reject charges in this way . Well, its sort of unusual on two levels. First of all, defendants file motions to dismiss part or all of an indictment all the time, but very rarely do they succeed. So lets start there. But the second way in which this is unusual is as harry just highlighted, in federal courts a defendant can ask for something called a bill of particulars. Its basically detail for me how it is that i was supposed to have violated the law at issue here. Explain that to me so i can adequately defend myself at trial. And as harry just referenced, in a Footnote Judge mcafee basically says federal courts have achieved greater efficiency with respect to this but Under Georgia law we cant remedy it through a motion for a bill of particulars, the only choice available to me where i see a deficiency like this is to dismiss the charges and to give the d. A. Either the option of appealing my ruling or to give her six extra months to try and convene a new grand jury and reindict on these specific charges. Yeah, its hard to see a world in which the d. A. And her team, vaughn, are going to say sure, lets just push this back six more months. But have we heard anything from the d. A. At all . No, we have not heard anything from the District Attorney at this point. A source familiar tells our Blayne Alexander Down in georgia that they are currently reviewing this decision here by the judge. But look, theres different decisions that could have come out today. Right . The rico charge could have been tossed or fani willis could have been disqualified from this case entirely here. So for the trump team they can call this a partial victory, to have in the case of donald trump specifically 3 of the 13 charges against him dropped. At the same time they are still waiting for that decision, which we expect to come by friday, On Whether Fani Willis will be able to oversee the case in its entirety Going Forward. Harry, when you look at this, did the d. A. Drop the ball here, not cross all the is cross all The Ts And Dot All the is . Is this an error that could and should have been avoided . I think the answer is yes. Because Under Georgia law as lisa and i were just saying youve got to get it all in the indictment, its the idea that the grand jury must put it. They could have been in the grand jury and explained heres what trump was pushing on raffensperger to do, heres the oath of office they say, and here, this is the missing piece, is just how they violated or were pushed to violate their oath of office. Just when they say i will do thus and so, heres what they were pushed to violate. Its a pretty essential piece. And i think given the way georgia practice works, yeah, it is certainly at least the crossing of a t or dotting of an i, even something a little bit more. It doesnt look great for them. I do want to again say, though, the Practical Impact is probably slight. But i agree, it reflects on them and this is a time of trouble generally for the case. Yeah, this hasnt been a great period of time for the District Attorneys office. Thats for sure, lisa. I want to talk about how this impacts the rest of the case because the order also says this. These Pleading Deficiencies do not apply to the corresponding overt acts listed in count 1, thats the violation of the rico act. Specifically overt acts 22, 55, 102, 112, 156. Overt acts alleged as part of a conspiracy are not held to the same Pleading Standards as statutorily based offenses. Plain language, police. While its not the case the d. A. Can sustain independent criminal charges based on each of these episodes of the defendants trying to get Georgia Election im sorry, georgia elected officials to violate their oaths, that doesnt mean that evidence of each of these episodes cant come into the case. In fact, where a rico charge is concerned, prosecutors typically allege a series of overt acts taken in furtherance of the conspiracy. And what mcafee is saying here is you cant, for example, charge donald trump with soliciting Brad Raffensperger to violate his oath of office but you sure can use that call as part of the evidence in favor of the rico charge and you can consider that to be one of the required overt acts taken in furtherance of the conspiracy. Overall, chris, this doesnt have a ton of impact on this case. Each of the six defendants here that moved to dismiss on these bases, none of them got rid of all the charges against them. The one who ended up i think best off is mark meadows, who only had two counts against him. That was the rico count and the count regarding the january 2nd, 202 1 Brad Raffensperger call. That Raffensperger Call is out against him but theyre still facing the big kahuna the rico call. Zblnts huge but its also complicated stuff. Is it the kind of thing you expect trump to take on the Campaign Trail and say look, here you go, these people brought these charges, even the judge who he hasnt exactly had friendly words to say about, even the judge said this case is weak. I mean, i dont think i disagree with one part of this, that the Trump Campaign will describe this as a partial win. Thats not what the Trump Campaign will do. The Trump Campaign will describe this as a huge victory. Right . Whether it is or not doesnt matter. Hes going to describe it that way. Im also sort of taken with this, as i have been over the last few months, is we are at a point of time in our American History where judges arent going to save our democracy, lawyers arent going to save our democracy, juries arent going to save our democracy, its up to we the voters to save our democracy and preserve the constitutional principles that exist there. To quote gandhi in this from more than 80 years ago, we are the change that we seek in the world of this. Because any little tiny crack, however we describe it, may be small, doesnt impact the majority of the case, donald trump is going to go to his base and say see . I told you. And even though it only applies to maybe 1 of everything that is going against donald trump, hes going to say it applies to everything, this is all a sham, this is all a fiction, and the judge has thrown out these thrown out these indictments against me and you should ignore all of it. Thats what hes going to do. So ultimately in my view as i observe the landscape Going Forward whats going to ultimately decide what happens with donald trump in the country is the voters. Yeah. And i hear that more from democrats, vaughn, worried about people who say im just going to wait for one of these trials to knock donald trump out of it. Thats not the message that democrats want. We said this earlier. This is not the case that we followed so closely, which is will fani willis be able to continue, will she no longer be on the case. Where does that stand right now . We are waiting for judge mcafee and we expect that decision to come within the next 48 hours or so now. Look, this has been a turbulent seven months. Standing outside of that Fulton County jail there when Donald Trumps motorcade came in. And fani willis was hoping to have this case be heard even before the 2024 election. Thats not where we find ourselves. And to Matthews Point here, for donald trump its not about the overall performance. Right . If youre on the balance beam and you have a little tilt here or there, right . Theyre going to call it out. And even if judge mcafee doesnt throw fani willis off the case, he will use that on the Campaign Trail like he has at every single rally since that evidentiary hearing to call out that this is a romantic relationship that was purely motivated to get donald trump. Right . So it doesnt even if the case is not dismissed in its entirety from fani williss hands, theyre still going to try to use this, which over the course of those seven months if wed said wed be at this point now, its the last thing the District Attorney or anybody hoping for the prosecution of donald trump would have wanted. Lisa, do you glean or should we glean anything from the fact that the judge and he said two weeks ago by next friday, meaning two days from now i expect to hand down my decision about fani willis, that he decided to put this out before then . Its a little bit of judicial housekeeping i would say. Right . Sometimes judges are trying to sort of narrow the case before them, really clarify what the case is about before it moves into a different phase of pretrial proceedings. So chris, one part of me says he did this so that when he decides that fani willis can remain on the case she knows what shes dealing with, she can hit The Go Button again and start preparing to try the remaining defendants on some other timeline other than august. But theres another part of me that says he did this so that an indictment as culled by him can also be handed to the Prosecuting Counsel of georgia and some future prosecutor will understand fully what the case for them will look like. I could go either way on that. I just think youve got judge scott mcafee trying to figure out what this case looks like Going Forward because the motion is to disqualify her, not to get rid of the case entirely. 48 hours we should know. Vaughn hillyard, harry litman, lisa rubin, thank you. Matthew, youre going to stay with me. In a different legal case for former President Trump, his former attorney and fixer Michael Cohen is right now were told in the manhattan d. A. s office preparing for the hush money trial. That one set to begin in just 12 days. He is expected to be the star witness, and prosecutors are prepping him for both direct and cross. That should be interesting. In 60 seconds, an historic president ial rematch. What voters are already saying in two very critical battleground states. I do not support either donald trump nor President Biden. Im not happy with either one, and ive not seen anything from either party that makes me feel confident or happy. Y. ella fashion moves fast. Setting trends is our business. We need to scale with customer demand. In real time. jen so we partner with verizon. Their solution for us . A private 5g network. ella we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. marquis with a custom private 5g network. Our customers get what they want, when they want it. jen now were even smarter and ready for whats next. vo achieve enterprise intelligence. Its your vision, its your verizon. Woman whats my safelite story . I see inspiration right through my glass. So when my windshield cracked, i chose safelite. They replaced the glass and recalibrated my safety system. Thats service i can trust. Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. Breathing claritin clear is like. is he . Confidently Walking 8 Long Haired Dogs and living as if he doesnt have allergies . Yeah. Fast relief of your worst allergy symptoms, like nasal congestion. As sequels go this will be one for the history books. The first president ial rematch in nearly 70 years. This was a great day, a victory. Last week was something very special. Super tuesday. But now we have to get back to work because we have the worst president in the history of our country. His name is joe biden. Sometimes referred to as crooked joe biden. And he must be defeated. Todays the day to call to action, with your voice, with your power, with your vote. Come november we will vote in record numbers. And we can do it. Are you ready to win this election . But today for all the strength that joe biden and donald trump have shown by gliding to their nominations, finally finishing it up last night, both show stark vulnerabilities for the general election. Biden weakened by Voter Discontent over the economy, immigration, the war in gaza. Trump plagued by lackluster fundraising, four criminal cases and a long track roared of losing. The 2020 election about 60 lawsuits challenging those results. And 2022 losses by candidates he backed. And voters dont frankly like either of them very much. I do not support either donald trump nor President Biden. Im not happy with either one, and ive not seen anything from either party that makes me feel confident or happy. So voters get the rematch they dread. Expected to be won or lost in perhaps just half a dozen states. And to redefine bitter, nasty expensive campaigns. By the way, in 1956 in that other rematch the incumbent president , dwight d. Eisenhower, again defeated Adlai Stevenson in a landslide. And they really didnt like each other either. Nbcs Blayne Alexander is reporting in atlanta. Nbcs marissa para is in doral, florida. Blayne, in georgia some democrats are brace forget a tough fight ahead. What are you hearing there . You know, chris, in the wake of the 2020 election georgia really was kind of heralded as this great example for other states to follow, other state democrats to follow in how to turn a reliably red state blue. We saw it with joe biden. We saw it with sending jon ossoff and Raphael Warnock to the u. S. Senate. But ive spent a lot of time over the past 24 hours or so talking with both democrats and republicans. The same people who are kind of going out knocking on doors, being organizers and rallying to get that very key crucial young and black vote. And some of the democrats tell me that theyre concerned, this is going to be a fight, its going to be an uphill climb this time around for a number of reasons. Democrats acknowledge that it took a special set of circumstances to flip georgia blue in 2020. Youre talking about a global pandemic, unrest when it comes to racial tensions, and then of course a number of other things that really drove out that youth and black vote. All of thats gone this time around. Certainly a very different look than it was back in 2020. I do want to point your attention to a new poll. And this is something that democrats are pointing to as well. That shows that the range between biden and trump is getting closer. A new cbs poll this morning shows that trump is leading biden by about three Percentage Points here in the state of georgia. Thats within the polls margin of error. And thats a closer gap than we saw on a similar poll back in january. So both democrats and republicans see an opening here in all of this. And republicans say that the key is going after those suburban voters. Now, to that point weve spoken to some suburban voters about what they think. Are they able to be swayed either way . Heres a little bit of what they had to say. Take a look. I dont think President Biden has been really good on foreign policy, the border, the economy, anything. For President Trump i think hes involved in too many disputes, things going on, court cases, so forth. I dont like the nastiness. I dont like not caring about people. Joe truly seems to care. Hes done a lot of good things. People dont give him credit for it. Reporter so something that stands out to me, chris, in talking to voters on either side of the aisle, nobodys particularly excited about the candidate at the top of their ticket. Thats clear. We know that. Thats why these organizers say that their goal isnt to necessarily sell the candidate but to more so talk about okay, heres how its going to benefit you personally, kind of empower them to know their vote can make a difference. And one other thing ill say that a democrat told me yesterday when talking about factors that would unite the party, he said theres nothing thats going to unite democrats like the cause of beating donald trump. And he says the fact that donald trump is going to be on the ballot again is going to be the single greatest tool in their arsenal in trying to keep the state blue this time around. So marissa, youre in a Florida County that was once a democratic stronghold and now may be republican, republicans to lose. What are you hearing from voters there . Reporter hey, chris. Well, good to be with you. And ill start first with some context on why were looking at miamidade to begin with. So obviously the last president ial election we know that in florida trump won florida but he did not win Miamidade County. Biden did. But when you look at the numbers youre going to see a democratic erosion in support. Youll see that even though biden won the county of miamidade he did not have the same support that clinton and barack obama did during their respective elections. So when we look at the midterms, the last midterms, thats where you can really see the trend towards the right. Governor ron desantis winning the entire county by 11 points. And listen, we know miamidade is made up of mostly latinos. And weve reported previously on the small conservative support within cubans, the cuban population here. In contrast with what we just heard blayne talking about where she was not seeing strong support for either candidate, ive definitely heard a lot of support for former President Trump. Ive definitely heard that before. But one thing i find really interesting is when we do find latinos who might be either voting for biden, wanting to vote for biden or maybe not really the biggest fan of either of them including not a big fan of trump, i notice a lot of hesitancy to say that because there is so much pressure within latinos here, and so we did speak to one person who didnt want to tell us who he was voting for but he did speak to the pressure within the Latino Community specially here in miamidade. Take a listen. So when youre talking to people, whether its your cuban friends in miami or venezuelan friends in miami, what are you hearing . Are you hearing people wishing they could support desantis, Missing Trump . I dont talk politics because i dont want to lose my friends. Because thats the state of politics right now, where you think you would lose your friends. Yes. And i respect everybodys view. Everybody has a right to be who they want to be. And its getting difficult. You get labeled if you go one way or another. I mean, its just its difficult nowadays. Reporter so within Miamidade County we chose to be right here in doral for a couple of reasons, chris. One of them being this has one of the strongest venezuelan populations. So its a reminder that although we have about half of the Latino Community within the county is cuban there are so many other populations here. And one of the important points i want to end with here is doral is a place that once was strongly democratic, in the last president ial election we saw it was almost 5050. It swung by a hair in trumps favor. So republicans here, republican strategists really think that they can lock in on places like this one and have the county swing in their favor this time around. Chris . Marissa parra, Blayne Alexander, thanks to both of you. Coming up, tiktok in limbo. As a bill to ban the app now heads to the senate. Well go to capitol hill for the latest. 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One pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. vo if you have graves disease. For one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. And itchy eyes, the truth may be even more uncomfortable. People with graves could also get thyroid eye disease, or ted, which may need a different doctor. Find a ted Eye Specialist at isitted. Com. You can make money the hard way as a bullfighter or a human cannonball. Or save money the easy way, with xfinity mobile. Existing customers can get a free line of our most popular unlimited plan for a year not only will you save hundreds but youll also be joining millions who have connected to americas most reliable 5g network. Sure is a lot safer than becoming a stuntman for money. Get a free line of unlimited intro for a year when you buy one unlimited line. Visit xfinitymobile. Com today to learn more. The clock is ticking on one of the most popular social media apps in america. A bill just passed the house that would effectively ban tiktok in the u. S. If the app does not cut ties with its chinese parent company, bytedance. As punchbowl newss cofounder jake sherman put it on x, the bill had a lot of strange bedfellows. Texas republican chip roy siding with speaker nancy pelosi, speaker emerita nancy pelosi. Among those voting against staunch trump supporter Marjorie Taylor greene and gen z florida democrat maxwell frost. The bill is making its way to the senate. I want to bring in julie tsirkin. How are things standing right now . Chris, its really not clear. Thats in part because of the tepid Statement Release bid Chuck Schumer moments after the house overwhelmingly passed this, 36565. You dont see any more bipartisan votes like that recently. And schumer had said simply that they are reviewing the legislation after it makes its way from the house to the senate, yesterday telling reporters as well that hes instructed his Committee Chairs to take a look at this, suggesting perhaps that the senate is not going to fasttrack this measure like the house did. In part of course the house did so because of National Security concerns, because of the republican and democrat, the top two leading on the bipartisan China Committee looking into the way foreign adversaries are capitalizing on us in some ways by using tiktok. But for the senates part we did have a bipartisan statement from the heads of the intelligence committee, im talking about senator mark warner and marco rubio. I want to read you part of it. They said, we were encouraged by todays strong bipartisan vote in the House Of Representatives and look forward to working together to get this bill passed through the senate and signed into law. Chris, im told that certainly Senate Leadership were keeping a very close eye to see how the vote unfolded in the house today with such a strong overwhelmingly bipartisan showing here. They are inclined im told to potentially put this on the floor. But still as you gauged from Leader Schumer here, as you gauged from some of the other folks opposed to this including republicans who cited First Amendment protections, Civil Liberties protections, theyre kind of slowwalking this as of now and its not clear if theyre going to put it on the floor anytime soon. Julie tsirkin, thank you for that. And a california congressman who was one of just 65 no votes on the bill joins me in our next hour to explain why he disagrees with the majority in the house. An Oceanfront Community in massachusetts thought they had a solution to the constant threat of beach erosion. But it took just one storm to wash it away. Residents of Salisbury Beach poured 600,000 of their own money into the effort, trucking in 15,000 tons of sand to form a protective dune in front of their homes. When tides rose just four days later, half of that sand was gone in a matter of minutes. As homeowners were kind of spitting into the wind here. You dont just walk away from that. I wont give up. I keep going. The neighborhood is now asking for the states help to help fund future protection efforts. And coming up, the veepstakes. Whos on trumps short list, and could he shake up the race . Ce the future is not just going to happen. You have to make it. And if you want a successful business, all it takes is an idea, and now becomes the future. A future where you grew a dream into a reality. Its waiting for you. Mere minutes away. The future is nothing but power and its all yours. The all new godaddy airo. Get your Business Online in minutes with the power of ai. Breathing claritin clear is like. is he . 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But nbc news is also reporting today that the former president has been focused heavily on abortion, worried that a running mate whos too hard line on that issue could repel voters. Beyond that, whether trump will go full maga, up for a woman or a person of color or in true trump style go completely off the grid, all remains to be seen. Let me bring in nbcs dasha burns from south florida. Robert gibbs is former White House Press secretary. Matthew dowd is back with me. Matthew, Conventional Wisdom would say you pick a running mate that helps to expand your appeal. But when youre an unconventional donald trump, what do you think happens here . Well, i dont think Donald Trumps going to look at this strategically at all. Hes just going to look at it i think the three qualifications that hes looking at for Vice President are are they a follower, are they a pushover, and are they a sycophant. And if youre all those three apply, thats who he wants in this. So from my Vantage Point i dont think you can change the way people look at donald trump by picking a vp. Though i think practically the importance of vps in this election, its probably never been more important with two of the oldest candidates to ever run for president. So becomes important. But donald trump is going to pick somebody, and i always thought that mike pence was kind of a pushover but not near enough that donald trump, for what donald trump wants. So thats the main category, are they a sycophant. And i dont think he cares about politically the consequences of this because he probably knows deep down theres no way voters are going to change their viewpoint of him because he picked a Vice President ial candidate. I do think, though, robert, that it is a good point that when you have two candidates who are that old but also frankly who are not liked that maybe the vp matters a little bit more than it typically does. How do you think trump is going to go about making this decision . Well, i tend to agree with matthew that im not sure its going to be terribly strategic. If you wanted to be strategic, though, you would look for a running mate that expands the electorate that youre appealing to and gives you some ability to draw voters that you might not otherwise have a great entry into. I think if you look back at the pence pick he was clearly trying to stabilize conservatives who were concerned about him. I think hes going to watch a lot of tape about whether somebodys an effective messenger, whether they can deliver in a tv interview, and then i think the other qualification is somebody whos both effective but doesnt overshadow him. Ive been on ive been thinking that elise stefanik, tim scott, those are probably names right at the top of his list. They tend to expand a little bit the base that hes talking to. They tend to be effective messengers. People that have been either in leadership or run for president. But also not in danger of overshadowing the big name on the bumper sticker. Dasha, we dont hear about Trump Digging Into policy questions very often. But as you report, abortion has caught his attention. What can you tell us . Yeah, sources tell me hes really been laser focused on this issue since the 2022 midterms when he felt that some of the candidates that he himself endorsed got it wrong on the issue the way that they campaign on it, the way they talked about it and turned off voters. Hes been really focused on trying to figure out how the Republican Party can appeal to folks on this issue. And hes been concerned, and along with some of his advisers and donors that i talk to that if he chooses a vp thats a little bit too hardline on the issue that that could be problematic. And the two names that came up as i was talking to sources, the most were South Carolina senator tim scott and south dakota governor kristi noem. South dakota has an allout abortion ban with no exceptions for rape or incest. Of course scott was very vocal about his antiabortion positions while he was on the Campaign Trail. There was one anecdote a source told me who was present for a dinner at maralago recently where trump was making his usual rounds around the table to dinner guests sitting out on the patio at maralago and someone brought up the Abortion Issue and how it was potentially problematic and trump started going around to various guests asking about what they thought about tim scotts abortion position, would it potentially turn off voters. This has been very much top of mind. And he really wants to try to lead the Republican Party into a different direction in terms of how they talk about this issue but at the same time, chris, of course he often takes credit and did lead the charge of overturning roe vs. Wade with the Supreme Court justices he appointed. So hes sort of walking a fine line there, trying to straddle both of these things, but does see it as an advantage for democrats and a potential vulnerability for republicans and hes trying to avoid having that issue become his own Achilles Heel with his vp pick, chris. Robert, i wonder if in modern politics there are more Scientific Ways perhaps to figure out what voters are looking for than going table to table, just throwing that out there. And also noting that dasha said he believes some of his candidates that he endorsed in 2022 got it wrong, not that he got it wrong. He picked them and endorsed them. If you were a betting man, though, do you think it would be somebody whos on that board over there . We can show it again. Could it be somebody totally off the reservation, so to speak, somebody whos not even in the game that we think is in the game . Look, its always a possibility. I tend to believe as we think through these things and we put names on here, i tend to believe that the more sort of safe picks, if you will, people that have, again, been through the process, who understand a little bit of what its like to get 15 microphones stuck in front of your face and have to respond to something that happens on a Campaign Trail is much better than somebody whos come from outside of the game who has no idea what theyre getting themselves into. So much more likely that you have shown the picture of who thats going to be than not. Matthew, speaking of maga base, a number of the people and we referenced this, considered to be on the short list, have been asked recently about whether they would have done what mike pence did in 2020, which is not stick with donald trump in his mind. Its an uncomfortable question for some. Heres what they said. If i had been Vice President , i would have told the states like pennsylvania, georgia and so many others that we needed to have multiple slates of electors, and i think the u. S. Congress should have fought over it from there. I would not have done what mike pence did. I dont think that was the right approach. If you have State Officials who are violating the election law in their states because of a emergency without going through the legislative process, which is by our constitution and by every law in our states, then no. At the end of the day when it comes to trump and again, as you say, follower, pushover, sycophant, loyalty first and foremost, does that narrow the field very quickly or when you look at the Republican Party today does it mean he has pretty much almost everybody that he could choose from . Well, just by your showing those answers to that question, i dont think it eliminates many people because i think the Republican Party has become the party of overthrow the constitution and diminish our democracy. So if there was i acandidate out there that said i would have done exactly what mike pence wants to do, theyre gone, theyre not on the list, and they probably will be primaried in this because of where the Republican Voters are. We still as of today nearly four years later 2 3 of Republican Voters say the election was illegal and joe biden didnt win the election. We still have that today. That answer to that question, as you showed, is where the Republican Base is, which is exceedingly unfortunate and dangerous in our country. Matthew dowd, dasha burns, robert gibbs, more to come. Thank you both. Thank you all. We appreciate it. And coming up, is Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahus government in trouble . The findings from a new u. S. Intel report. 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The European Union is accusing israel of using starvation as a weapon in gaza. Now a u. S. Intelligence assessment concludes that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahus hardline policies on palestinians could vent lead to his eventually lead to his fall from power. It reads, distrust of netanyahus ability to rule has deepened and broadened across the public from its already high levels before the war, and we expect large protests demanding his resignation and new elections. A different, more moderate government is a possibility. Joining us, michael crowley, Diplomatic Correspondent for the new york times. Glad we got your shot up. Theres been talk for months netanyahus in trouble. History has shown him to be remarkably resilient. Is his play to just weather the storm, press ahead, wait it out . What can you add to this conversation . Yeah. Thanks for having me. I do sometimes think of Benjamin Netanyahu a little bit like donald trump who people constantly say this is it, hes done, he cant come back, hes going to jail, he said something that from which hell never recover, and somehow he survives. Hes an incredible survivor. Hes now been around in and out of power in israel for going on 30 years. But i think like trump, again, he really does fear the possibility, the real possibility that he could go to prison on Corruption Charges for which hes on trial. Israel has jailed a former Prime Minister, so its something that that country is prepared to do. And you know, by the best accounts of people who understand israeli politics that i hear, hes trying to hang on in part, you know, whether its conscious or not, whether hes following a deliberate strategy, being in power and paging a war against hamas which is popular in israel now, is keeping his head above water. His goal is to avoid a reckoning of the attacks on october 7th over which he presided. And he is in a pretty good position, as long as hes helping to command the military and fight hamas. I dont think that theres a clear offramp strategy for him. When you dont know exactly how you get out of a situation you muddle through. If you have a good thing going in the sense of good where hes holding onto power, you keep it going. The concern and the most cynical interpretation is that he actually has an incentive or a desire to extend the war. I dont know that we can say that thats true, but thats the dynamic were looking at. I mean, heres part of the problem if i go back to that intelligence assessment, it says, israel probably will face linger armed resistance from hamas for years to come, and military will struggle to neutralize hamas underground infrastructure which allows insurgents to hide, regain strength, and surprise israeli forces. If that assessment is anywhere near correct and he has been very clear that the destruction of hamas is what his end goal is, is the end goal years away . Chris, it could be. You have to think about, number one, you know, defeating hamas militarily is going to be very difficult. Theres still at least two battalions left in the rafah area. Netanyahu says hes going to go into rafah, but it could force a split with the United States. Lets say that they do go in, they destroy those last battalions, hamas neutralizes a military force, youre still going to have survivors, youre still going to have insurgents and guerillas, and youre going to have the families and friends of tens of thousands of palestinians who were killed in gaza. And a lot of those people are going to be radicalized and be essentially out for vengeance. I think its really difficult to imagine that theres not going to be violence and fighting in gaza for a long time. Now, can netanyahu hold on for months and even years to pursue that and prosecute that . I think its really hard to say. A lot depends on the relationship with the United States. Part of it might depend on who the president of the United States is in several months. So were just going to have to wait and see. But i do think that his best ticket to staying out of jail right now, however you want to interpret that, its sort of unfortunate, may be waging war in gaza. Michael crowley from the new york times. Always good to have you on the show. Thanks, michael. We have a lot to cover in our second hour of Chris Jansing reports. Right now, a dramatic twist in Donald Trumps Georgia Elections case. Why the judge just dropped three counts against the former president. Mindnumbingly dangerous, thats how the feds describe a january 6th defendant theyre trying to keep behind bars. What hes accused of doing. Fortifying the blue wall. Wisconsin voters with some advice for joe biden if he wants to win that battleground state. And rfk jr. s vp short list. Will he pick a famous nfl quarterback or former governor who once starred in predator