Conversation thats happening across the country. Senator chris murphy, thank you very much. That is all in on this tuesday night. Good evening alex. Liberal democracy, not a foregone conclusion apparently. Woo hoo, these times. And thank you at home for joining me. Today the former Special Council that investigated President Bidens mishandling of classified documents was ruled by house members on capitol hill. Former Special Council has declined to charge President Biden with anything, concluding officially nothing President Biden did was worthy of prosecution. That did not stop republicans in congress are making a four hour circus out of the testimony today. Thats because the hearing wasnt actually about matters of law, it was about political points. The reality is the only reason joe biden accidentally taking some classified documents with him, the only reason that matters at all is because donald trump willfully, purposefully took classified documents with him when he left office and then tried to obstruct justice to cover it all up. These two cases are not the same. Dont just take my word for that. Here is former special Council Reading from his very own report on the matter. Unlike the evidence involving mr. Biden, the evidence for the indictment of trump if proven would present serious aggravating facts. I am happy to have you read the words. Its your report so i think its more fitting that you read those pics most notably after being given multiple chances to return classified documents mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite. According to the indictment he not only refused to return the documents for many months but obstructed justice i listing others to destroy evidence and lie about it. We will get into the apparent reluctance to read aloud the negative parts of donald trump, even if they were parts he wrote but Congresswoman Natalie forced mr. Hurts to highlight the conclusion in this whole thing. In one case, biden he seen what you have to be a legitimate mistake followed by full cooperation with law enforcement. In the other, trump, you have what appears to be criminal intent and obstruction of justice. This is to underscore the chasm that separates these cases. Yesterday we got even more evidence of just how intensely criminal Donald Trumps actions appear to be. On monday one of the witnesses in the investigation came forward and up until yesterday we knew the witness only as Trump Employee 5. There now reporting his name is brian butler, longtime employee at maralago and he witnessed some incredibly damning things. Like the day trump flew from florida To Bedminster new jersey. Trumps body man and walt asked mr. Butler to get him a big suv, and escalate. Butler then saw him and the other codefendant load the vehicle up with 1015 bankers boxes and then drive them to trumps plain and then load those bankers boxes onto the plane. Mr. Butler said that all took place on june 3rd, 2022. Later the same day one of trumps lawyers provided investigators with what he said was the entirety of classified documents that remain in trumps position. As well as foreign certification that falsely claimed on trumps behalf that he and team trump conduct to the diligent search of boxes and all responsive documents have been turned over. So what brian butler is asserting is pretty explosive. Not only did trump hideaway 105 classified documents that the fbi eventually found. It sure sounds like trump managed to steal another 1015 boxes of records. We dont know if the fbi ever got those records back. Who knows where those boxes are . That sure sounds like obstruction of justice. What is equally concerning is why brian butler decided to go public right now. Here he was explaining his decision. Well its been almost a year since fbi agents showed up at my house when my wife was at home. Over the course of the last year emotionally its been a roller coaster. A couple of weeks ago judge cannon said she would release the names of the witnesses. You go from highs to lows in this. Instead of just waiting for it to come out i think its better that i get to say what happened then it coming out in the news and people calling me crazy. Id rather get it out there. The hope is i can move on with my life and get over this. Brian butler coming forward here is brave. President trump has a track record of trying to intimidate witnesses who speak out against him. His followers have a track record of harassing and threatening anyone they perceived to be Donald Trumps enemy. Coming out in this Big Public Way is in itself a big deal. As the months go on the list of trumps transgression, if not the list of his actual crimes, those lists continue to grow. Yet for now the maralago classified documents case is on hold. Instead of talking about a trial, in congress to focus is on President Biden and not just how we handle classified documents as a legal matter is already settled. Instead the focus is on bidens age and whether he is fit to be president. The former Special Council himself played a huge role in that. His report made broad and seemingly unusual characterizations about bidens age. Now one of the congresspeople who Question Hearn Today was adam schiff. Before becoming a congressman ship spent years as the attorney of district of california. Meaning hes no stranger to how prosecution like this should be run. He knows the rules and he does not think the former Special Council has followed them. Politics played no part whatsoever in my investigative steps. You understood, you cannot tell me that your words would not have created a political farce drum. You understood how they would be manipulated by my colleagues on the gop side of the island by President Trump. You understood that. What i understood is regulations that govern my conduct as Special Council. Confidential report for the Attorney General. You knew it was not confidential. What is in the rules is you dont gratuitously do things to prejudice the subject of an investigation when youre declining to prosecute. You dont gratuitously add language that you know would be useful in a political campaign. You are not born yesterday, you made a political choice, it was the wrong choice. Mr. Chairman, ideal backpack joining me now is congressman adam schiff hes a member of the House Judiciary Committee and congressman ship its great to see you. You, i think made an impact today, shall we say in your questioning of the former Special Council. Im wondering what your assessment was when you asked him whether he believed that this was not a political document or he did not make any Political Considerations when assessing peasant resident brydens memory. Did you believe him . I didnt believe him at all. He tried to claim this was a confidential memo but it was also knowledge he knew it would be made public the Attorney General made it clear it would be public. The idea that he was required to give this personalized, prejudicial, biased essentially broadside against the president. That was necessary to his report is absurd. He couldve commented all he wanted on the president s specific recollection on this or that document. It wouldve been a pope but he understands doing dozens and dozens of depositions. If witnesses dont remember something clearly should say they dont recall. Theres nothing unusual about that. To take this political potshot at the president during the minutes of the campaign when he knows how it will be used. Grave abuse of Prosecutorial Authority and he knows it. I feel like he wanted to issue a backhanded, not quite indictment of the president. He got into a big back and forth over whether or not the president was exonerated by his report. He kept saying i did not exonerate him. Why if he wasnt going to charge him he refused to say i do not exonerate him . I think, in the clip you played, his reluctance to recourses to that report critical of donald trump. What he decided to do lacking the evidence to charge the president he would do the next best thing, which is give them a political bludgeon. Attack the president s memory. Paint an unflattering portrait of him. That was more damaging than any observation he mightve made about the facts or the chargeability of the facts. I think he has a tough time criticizing trump. He may have future political ambitions. He doesnt want to alienate someone who might be president. He doesnt want to alienate the republican party. This is his effort, failing to find fax to charge to gratify the trump crowd. What do you make of the fundamental issue on display . The fundamental conclusion worth repeating over and over. The vast gulf that separates what President Biden did versus former President Trump on classified document retention. Do you think democrats made a forceful enough distinction given all that republicans have stored up, the political bludgeon to try to muddy the water and impugn President Bidens age and fitness for office . I think yes, madeleine did a great job. Ted lieu also did a great job going through the itemized charges against donald trump and concealing materials to try to get people to lie about it. Talking about scrubbing the server that had Surveillance Footage on it. All these respects just Night And Day with President Bidens not deliberate effort to retain documents with his full cooperation and likely interviews. It was a sharp contrast, democrats made the contrast that i also think it became clear watching hearn respond to questions this is not a neutral, objective nonpartisan prosecutor. This is someone who was a republican appointee who really found it difficult, as you say in his own words, to read from his own report that would be critical of donald trump. I think the public got a sense of who he is and where it is coming from that this is not a neutral arbiter. Independent of what they have to say, i wonder how much an impact the latest developments out of the classified documents case is going to have with the American Public as we head into the election season where we may not get any of the criminal trials. They may not happen before the election. We have a witness coming forth saying not only did donald trump retain over 100 classified documents at his residents, he may have stolen 1015 bankers boxes and took them to points north or wherever. Do you think that has the impact that it should or do you think there has been some false equivalence made between biden taking things. Regardless of the fact that it wasnt criminal and what prompted. Do you think the transgressions of that case have lost their impact in the court of Public Opinion . I dont think theyve lost their impact but the indictments were some time ago, i think its valuable to remind people of these egregious facts. Mr. Butler coming forward, given the trial doesnt look like it will go forward before the election to say, hey the president was involved in hiding these classified materials. I was asked in a suspicious way to help load these boxes of documents on the same day the president s lawyers a meeting with the Justice Department to go over these classified materials. Lord knows what happened to all or some of these documents. I thought mr. Butlers statements about having this billionaire, foreign person talking about russian and other submarine or u. S. Capabilities. The astonishment that the president would talk to some wealthy donors or patron in mar alago shows you what a Security Risk to hold maralago enterprise was. Donald trump willingness to show photographs of things to different parties that were potentially classified materials. Terrified to think of him getting classified briefings now and i hope the agencies dumb at down so they dont share anything with the president they dont want shared with the world. The only materials published , i dont know in the Washington Post and l. A. Times. We probably wont read either. Congressman adam shipp thank you for taking the time. Really appreciate it. We have a lot to get to this evening including a doctored photo of The Royal Family means for american politics. Plus president ial Spoiler Rfk Junior announces his short list for Running Mates includes, surprise a very prominent anti vaccine. Thats coming up. Easy to apply for the whole family. Vicks vapostick. 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Judge cannon has yet to rule on whether she will release the names of the prosecution. She held a hearing 11 days ago, the trial date is still very much tbd. Joining me now is msnbc lisa rubin. Its always so wonderful to have you on set. Continued confusion about whats happening in florida. And other legal scholars, what is canon going to do here . This seems like a very bad call, witnesses should be protected. Especially those the president has a history of aligning if not outright harassing pictures i was reading the transcript you are referring to earlier tonight and canon still has a leaning towards revealing their names. She actually asks David Harbaugh of Special Councils office, has there been any indication that any of these witnesses have been threatened . His response was incredulous but then he said to her, thats not the standard your honor. We dont have to show that a witness has been threatened in order to make a credible case that the revelation of their names would compromise the investigation as well as their public safety. You feel like if she says no, jack smith takes this to the 11th circuit . I do because its not just about ryan butler as Trump Employee number five who unveiled himself willingly. There are 25 other witnesses according to the estimation that could be impacted. Is not just their identities. Its about the substance of their expected testimony. They could also be communications between numbers of the Prosecution Team about some of these witnesses. And lets say theyre talking about lisa rubin a witness and lower down the talking about alex wagner. You could end up having alex wagners name in the Public Domain even though its