Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240701

left, like, what do you put on that generation of children that are witnessing this level of draw trauma and, destruction, and death? >> -- and peter beinart, thank you both, appreciate it. that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> thank, you my friend, we have a lot to get to this evening. thank you tom for joining with me tonight. this time of year, four years ago, democrats were preparing to impeach donald trump for withholding aid to ukraine in an attempt to get political dirt on joe biden. the republicans were not surprisingly outraged. but there was one republican congressman in particular who had a very specific reason for opposing trump's impeachment, a reason that he repeated over and over and over. but >> the founding fathers, the founders of this country, warned against single party impeachment. they said it would be bitterly divisive, protect perhaps irreparably divisive for the country. the founders of this country warned us against the single party impeachment, because they feared it would bitterly amber helps irreparably divide our nation. >> the founders of this nation warned against a single party impeachment. you know why? you guys guys know why. they feared it would bitterly and perhaps irreparably divide our nation. >> the founding fathers warned us, i mean they feared a single party impeachment. they knew that it would bitterly divide the country. it might be irreparable damage to the country. >> the founding fathers. no single party impeachments. if an impeachment isn't bipartisan it should not happen. so spoke the founding fathers. and that was the message from louisiana congressman mike johnson, and congressman johnson was especially concerned about an impeachment happening the december before an election year. we >> if you don't like the president, he goes on the ballot again after four years. we have an election in 11 months. let the people decide this. >> today we are once again 11 months out from the presidential election. speaker mike johnson has decided that he wants to go ahead with a single party impeachment of the sitting president. today republicans in the house passed their impeachment resolution through the rules committee, and they plan to vote on that resolution in the full house as soon as tomorrow. but unlike the impeachment of donald trump, republicans do not actually know what their impeachment is about. they have not actually found any conclusive proof of wrongdoing by president biden. and now speaker johnson says, well, that's the point. speaker says the reason republicans need to impeach president biden without evidence is because the administration has not helped them find that evidence. >> the impeachment inquiry is necessary now, as we just explained, because we've come to this impact impasse. the white house is impeding the investigation. not allowing witnesses to come forward and thousands of pages of documents. >> they have no choice. the white house isn't providing enough documents or witnesses, so the impeachment, it just has to go forward. i wonder what 2019 mike johnson would have to say about that? >> the democrats could and should have just simply gone a few blocks away to a federal court to get him expedited court order compelling the extra documents and information they requested. that's what's always been done in the past. but they didn't do that here because these democrats don't have time for it. they are trying to meet their own arbitrary completely reckless and machiavellian timeline to take down a president that they loathe. mike >> johnson is in way over his head right now. as he and the republican party barrel toward and unfounded preach impeachment inquiry, the entire world is waiting on this congress to take action. to the ukrainian president zelenskyy was in washington d.c. timid with both president biden and speaker johnson about desperately needed aid. right now russia is ramping up its military offensive in ukraine in what u.s. intelligence says is an attempt to undermine support for ukraine and western nations. like this one. new democrats support sending ukraine assistance immediately, but house republicans, under the leadership of speaker johnson, have refused. they are instead demanding the democrats reach a series of extreme border policies before signing on to any ukrainian package. policies like bringing back trump era covid restrictions on immigration, mandating electronic monitoring of immigrants of in the u.s. including children, and expediting deportations. so there are some huge looming issues right now. peoples lives are hanging in the balance here. but as of this moment, congress is scheduled to leave washington at the end of this week, not to return until next year. with senate majority leader chuck schumer is calling on congress to stay in session throughout the next week but there is no indication that republicans will agree. time is running out, and right now their top priority is impeaching president biden. but they can't really tell you or anyone why. joining me now is former speaker of the house, now speaker emory to, emerita, nancy pelosi. thank you for being here speaker pelosi. it's wonderful to have you anytime but especially in a time like this one we're trying to make sense of what is going on with your colleagues across the aisle. i wonder what you think of this impeachment push and whether the gop is trying to render the concept of impeachment effectively meaningless. >> well, thank you, it's nice to be with you, alex, especially in this difficult time for our country, when we have so many needs that we have to, meet so many challenges to democracy in ukraine and in our own country and that the speaker is going down this path. he says he has no choice. the fact is he has no respect. no respect for the constitution of the united states, no respect for his own members. those he's asking to vote for an impeachment with no basis. you reference when we are obese the president years ago because of his refusal to implement the, send the aid to ukraine that was voted by congress and he was supposed to sound but was threatening to withhold it unless he got certain favors done for him. by president zelenskyy. but he said to me, what's the problem? it was the perfect call. it was perfectly impeachable. and so they have no basis. moved their excuse for having no basis is they have no basis, and they are saying to these people, nearly 20 of them, 18 of them are in districts that president biden won. so it's going to be a hard sell for them to go home and say why they went down this careless path. it let me just say one more thing. you ran all the statements that he made about he shouldn't have a one party impeachment. well our founders knew that we could possibly have a rogue president but they didn't think we would have a rogue congress at the same time. in addition to that, so my senator -- manchin did on the floor, this speaker a few congresses ago introduced a bill that said you can't have more than one subject in a bill. and yet he is putting immigration on the ukraine bill. >> i just want to follow up on something you mentioned which is the cliff that it appears speaker johnson is leading his by in district republicans over on this impeachment inquiry vote. kevin mccarthy, when he was speaker, if you can remember, it happened very quickly it was over before it began in many ways. but in his speakership he understood the political reality that it would not be good for those centrist republicans to vote on the biden impeachment. speaker johnson does not seem to understand the political reality of that. what fortune awaits those republicans who vote yes? >> they have made a decision to go all out with donald trump. donald trump has instigated this, encouraged it further, and now they are all just going down the donald trump path. that is not a good path in some of these districts. we fully intend to win the house in this next election but in the meantime we have plenty of work to do instead of this impeachment. what do they have to offer? i like the even call him president trump on the same sentence but the former occupant occasionally of the white house would say much to overturn the affordable care act. others will say we have to pass it. a total ban on abortion in our country, and these are the kinds of things they have in store for women and families, the kind of kitchen table issues that they have in store, should they win, which they must not. but in the meantime, to keep people distracted and to look effective, to their base, this is red meat to their base, mertz impeach the president. for no basis. no respect for the constitution, no respect for the auspices of president, and no respect for the house of representatives and their own members. >> i want to focus on that last bit. the lack of respect for the actual office that these republicans hold, this congress is on track to be this, i think it's the second least productive congress in modern american history. a lot of excuses are made for that on the right, which is, oh, it's a slim majority, et cetera, and you are speaker of the house with a very slim majority are managed to get many things done. what would your advice to the current speaker of the house be if he wanted to get anything done? >> in addition to what some of those republicans have said about their slim's already, some have been bragging that they sent all these bills over to the senate. ridiculous bills that are never going to see the light of day, but as some of them said, we've done a lot of things. when one stat person said we meet santa letter got the mask mandate removed. we sent a later letter about this or that and now we're going to have a hearing on it. their standard for accomplishment is very law. but they're anti-governance. if you remember that they are anti-governance, this is a good thing for them, that they are accomplishing nothing. >> -- >> nothing. good >> and you mentioned some of the priorities for these republican lawmakers in a vacuum. the most egregious things really stand out. among them their war on reproductive freedom and the most recent comments from their titular head, bill they're informal head, their front runner, donald trump, who wants to replace obamacare. >> yes, imagine that. imagine that. when he was president he said repeal and replace he had no replacement. he just wanted to repeal. and it was defeated and he was defeated not move just by our incitement of rainbow by outside mobilization, the grassroots people that benefit, the people who benefit from the affordable care act. it wasn't about them talking about provisions it was them talking about their personal experience. and that is what we intend to do. we've already launched the same campaign we did then and will come full bloom around martin luther king weekend to again have the outside mobilization to protect affordable care act which is brought care to millions, nearly 20 million more people in our country, and again, benefits, including me the most important one that affects so many people as a pre-existing condition, the benefit of saying if you have a pre-existing condition no longer can you be deprived of care. and we have no more time limits, whether it's annual or lifetime time limits. the list goes on about the benefits that would be overturned as well. these are kitchen table issues, as are the issues that you referenced earlier about a woman's right to choose. kitchen table issues. it's an economic issue. all of it for families about their health, their financial well-being, their freedom. we fight for democracy here in our country. ukrainians are fighting for their. we are fighting for freedom here, whether it's freedom for lgbtq communities, whatever. the freedoms that people want to read a book, to even read a book, for your child to read books in school that have been classics and are now burned. >> something tells me that former speaker nancy pelosi is ready to talk book bans, women's bodies, and health care as much as republicans will latter. speaker nancy pelosi it is an honor and thrilled to have you on this program. thanks for making some time tonight. i really appreciated. >> my pleasure. but remember, the longer they take with ukraine, more women will be rain, four people were, die where children will be kidnapped, and it will be all on them. we have to get them to move. thank you for giving some more exposure to this issue tonight. thank, you alex. >> thank you for all you do. i appreciate it. joining me now is new york times columnist michelle goldberg. michelle, it's great to see you here, to sort of unpack what we just talked about. first, so many things to talk, about first the impeachment push, as zelenskyy is effectively begging hat in hand for the u.s. congress to do something about an incredibly desperate situation over in ukraine, this cynicism, to me, is astounding. i wonder if you think if it resonates the way it can and should with the american public. >> i think the american public is so polarith i'm not sure, i mean, i think they're still in middle. on ukraine aid specifically, i do think that there are people who are right leaning who are inspired by the heroism of the ukrainian people, absolutely. but one function of donald trump has been to polarize a lot of the republican party in favor of vladimir putin. there's a connection between this cynical impeachment push and the decreasing willingness of republicans to support ukraine. it's true that we can't articulate what republicans are impeaching joe biden for, which is telling, but at least part of the impeachment push is a resurrection of this conspiracy theory that got donald trump impeached. donald trump is impeached for trying to strong-arm zelenskyy to implicate biden in his bogus corruption scandal. the republicans are once again trying to implicate biden in this bogus corruption scandal and sort of act as if donald trump's accusations had been legitimate. that is part of the same sort of, they are caught up in anti ukrainian propaganda, both in terms of impeachment, but also much more seriously in terms of their willingness to abandon ukraine at this critical junction in the war. >> that they'll sacrifice lives for political gain. which we by the way saw during covid but this is just another example even if they're not necessarily american lives. i do have to ask you about the impeachment push. i feel you give some strategic credit to republicans. there's like a comments read between trump's impeachment and bidens. i really do worry that the more you say biden was impeached and trump was impeached, it renders the gravity of it somewhat meaningless. >> that's why they're doing it. >> yes. and i worry that it's going to be quite effective. >> yeah, i do too. we people will say they were both accused of different things. it's very clear that the reason that, and i think some republicans and said this, we want to give trump ammunition to say, to impeach presidents running against each other and so just kind of lessened the gravity of his double impeachment. but at the same time, yes, it's hard for people to keep straight, especially when it comes to ukraine and burisma and victor shokin and all these foreign names in moving parts and people become very cynical and just think they're all corrupt. they must have both done something. there must be something shady going on with ukraine, which got them, i think, leads into, well, maybe it makes sense that we've given them enough money. >> i wonder, in terms of managing the funding to ukraine, which seems warranted and desperately needed, whether it was a mistake. former speaker pelosi mentioned it was a mistake to tie immigration and all of this but it was president biden who initially basically attach the immigration funding to the ukraine funding, gaza finding. what does that look like? does it look like a mistake? now >> i think it looks like it's giving republicans, i mean, i can't see if it's a mistake that can't see if it would get this funding in the absence of this. but i do think that it's given republicans this enormous leverage because negotiations are often about who cares more. they really don't care that much about ukraine if at all. they care a lot about the border. and so they are willing to, they are quite willing to play chicken with the future of ukraine as a nation if it means they're going to get the border funded. >> the sweetener's draconian border policy. that's where the modern republican party is at. michelle bull goldberg, you're not done with us here, i would bring you back in a few minutes to talk about another massive story in tonight's news, and that is the nightmare in the state of texas as elected officials in the states -- start directing reproductive health care. but first, the supreme court may soon be deciding whether donald trump is immune from prosecution. we're gonna get the latest on that from neal katyal. that's next. katyal. that's next. that's next. >> because i switched to every-other-month cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. now when i have people over, hiv pills aren't on my mind. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or if you're taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. it feels good to just live in the moment. with every-other-month cabenuva, i'm good to go. ask your doctor about cabenuva today. the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico, from alaska to alabama. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved, because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. i'm a little anxious, i'm a little excited. so please call or go online to myaclu.org i'm gonna be emotional, she's gonna be emotional, but it's gonna be so worth it. i love that i can give back to one of our customers. i hope you enjoy these amazing gifts. oh my goodness. oh, you guys. i know you like wrestling, so we got you some vip tickets. you have made an impact. so have you. for you guys to be out here doing something like this, >> i could stand in the middle it restores a lot of faith in humanity. of fifth avenue and shoot somebody i wouldn't lose any voters. >> that remark is follow donald trump ever since before said it during the 2016 campaign. it followed him all the way to new york's second circuit court of appeals in 2019 where a judge cited that comment when asking trump, and one of his lawyers, about the scope of presidential immunity as it pertained to a subpoena in a criminal investigation. at the time trump's lawyer tried to argue that a sitting presidents immunity is absolute, that he, hostile trump could theoretically shoot someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. that argument ultimately failed when the entire supreme court including justices samuel leto in clarence thomas, when they all agree just being president did not grant trump the immunity he was seeking. but donald trump is trying a variation on this theme as part of his defense in special counsel jack smith's 2020 election interference case. but critically conduct he engaged in while he was still a sitting president. now jack smith wants the supreme court to weigh in on this quickly. the supreme court has agreed to think about taking up the presidential immunity question on an expedited basis, and that goes against trump's strategy of choice, to do whatever he can to delay this trial. joining me now is neal katyal former acting solicitor general for the u.s. under the bomb administration, someone who knows what to lots of with the high court. nick neal, thank you for being here, and i'm eager to hear thoughts are and whether the supreme court takes this up on an expedited basis. >> i think jazz mid to the right thing by using this procedure called -- before judgment to bypass the court of appeal and say to the supreme court decided this now. i think the supreme court is going to decide it. i think they're going to agree to hear the case and i think they will if not unanimously pretty darn close to it rule against criminal defendant donald trump. that's for a couple of reasons, but the most important of which, alex, is the extraordinary thing that trump is trying to argue, which is that he can murder someone and get away with it, that being president gets him and get out of jail free card. here's where it's even stronger claim that what he said last time in the -- case the your flashing before, you didn't quite did he could get away with it. he said while he is a sitting president he can't be investigated. but his lawyer was very clear, saying i'm not seeking permanent immunity, that is once trump leaves office he could be prosecuted. now trump has left office. jack smith is prosecuting him as a former president. i know trump still thinks he's president, but he's not. the supreme court is gonna say how can it be that a former president has absolute immunity? that's just not american. >> president immunity is not something america gives its presidents, last i checked, but i'm not a supreme court justice. how does trump tea trump's team respond to this? they have to file a response to jack smith's notion. it's an odd position for trump to be in. smith is effectively calling his bluff here, is he not? >> exactly. so trump has already issued some sort of social media statement saying that jack smith is playing games, which is bizarre because if anything, i've sat in the chair authorizing appeals for the government and making decisions about -- judgment, but the thing i was worried about when you try to bypass a court of appeals is that it will look like that you're trying to gain the system, that you don't trust the court of appeals because of the composition of it. you're the composition for appeals in washington, d.c., is overwhelmingly against trump. it's all basically rule of law people, which is the definition against trump. jack smith is still saying i want to bypass that court. there is no allegation against the should appear. it's just simply a matter of time, i checked smith said. this is exactly what happened with the special prosecutor in the nixon case in 1974. i think trump can try with the filing next week, but i think it will go just about as well as his merits argument will before the united states supreme court, should the court agreed to hear the case. it will look just like the mazars one which flashed on the screen before, a unanimous loss for donald trump, or pretty darn close to it. >> i've been interested in the presidential immunity question here, not so much because i'm a legal scholar, and i'm interested in testing the outside balance of the law, because it seems like a fairly effective delaying mission method for trump, not just because of its merits but because of the way the courts work. i wonder how real even with even if the supreme court takes this up on an expedited calendar. >> i think it's a realistic fear that the march 4th date will be posted. the question is, by how much? it's pretty easy for the supreme court to resolve this case. donald trump's lawyers are saying the supreme courts never decided whether a president has absolute immunity is a former president. that's because it's such a ridiculous question. i think it's easy for the court to decide. and maybe it will delay things by a few weeks. but i don't think longer than that. this is not a hard case. >> one more for you, neil, in terms of what could happen while this is working its way through the courts. there's talk of a stay, that of course trump would like, that jack smith has been pleading against, if you will. how much can judge chutkan do while the d.c. circuit court decide what they're gonna do with this. only a little bit. you know erica, the supreme court gave last year about this question. and basically the supreme court said that while a case is on appeal, much of it cannot go forward. and so, some things can like the gag order and perhaps some discovery disputes in the lake. but some cannot. and, so that's another reason why jack smith was so smart to file this motion that he did yesterday that bypassed the court of appeals. >> -- rough call -- we will see what happens. neil -- the person knows the behavior behind court better than most americans. thank you for your time tonight, my friend. >> thank you. much more ahead tonight, including the strangely tight grip donald trump has on evangelical voters, tim albert of the new author of the kingdom, the power, and the glory will join us to explain how this happened. but first, there is one case out of texas that republicans really really, really don't want to talk about. michelle goldberg will be back to discuss that, coming up next. ing up next i'll be home for christmas. you can count on me. please have snow and mistletoe. and presents under the tree right now, all over the country, kids at shriners hospitals for children® are able to go home and be with their families for the holidays. and it's only possible because of the monthly support of people just like you. thanks to a generous donor. every dollar you give can help twice as many kids like me and have double the impact. with your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day, we'll send you this adorable love to the rescue® blanket as a thank you. and a reminder of the care you'll be providing so kids can be with their families. christmas eve will find me. where the love light gleams. it only takes a moment to call the number on your screen. or you can visit loveshriners.org right now on your phone or computer. thanks to a generous donor, your gift will go twice as far and help more kids like me. because every child just wants to be home for the holidays and your gift makes that possible. your call is the best gift of all. your gift will be my favorite christmas present this year. thank you for giving. please call the number on your screen or go online right now with your monthly gift. and when you do, your gift will have two times the impact. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? yesterday, the texas supreme it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. court decided that kate cox, the woman with the life threatening nonviolent pregnancy, did not qualify for a medical exception for the states near total ban on abortion, thereby overturning a district court ruling. and cox, who could not wait any longer, had already left the state to seek an abortion. in a statement, cox's lawyer responded, if cake ox can't get in abortion in texas, who can? now, cox may have gotten her abortion, but this particular fight is not over. far from it, there are hundreds of women like kate cox, nearly dying from non viable life-threatening pregnancies in states where they are denied abortions, and 20 of them have sued the state of texas this year. they want the state supreme court to clarify the medical exemptions that are part of the states abortion ban. texas attorney general ken paxton's office has argued that the law is already clear, that kate cox's case highlights the utter absurdity of that argument. in her latest, called new york times opinion writer michelle goldberg interviewed cox's lawyer, molly -- who said, i think it's the clearest message you could have possibly received from a antiabortion state that they never meant the medical exemption to mean anything at all. join me now is michelle goldberg, a columnist for the times. michelle, thanks so much for being here. i am astounded, and appalled, by what is unfolding in texas. you write in your piece, right-wing politicians and those who support them would rather inflict unimaginable suffering on women, then relax the tiniest bit of control over their medical decisions. and you make the case that if they had actually relaxed their control over women's bodies, this actually could have played well for them, in some scenario. can you talk about that? >> well, almost as soon as the dobbs decision came down, we started hearing these horror stories. they were inevitable, you heard them in countries where abortion was illegal, it was obvious that was going to happen here. you started hearing about women with wanted pregnancy that had gone horribly awry, or miscarriages that have been totally mismanaged, women being told that they had to wait until they were -- until they were treated, or they had to wait until they were on the verge of losing a major bodily function, in the language of some of these laws. even if, it was inevitable that they were going to get there. and you had a lot of doctors feeling paralyzed, like they didn't know what they could do, and when they would face prosecution. and when those stories started coming up, the response of the anti-abortion movement was this kind of conspiracy theory that pro-choice forces are making things more complicated than they are, they are exaggerating the, they are exaggerating. right, they are basically making doctors saying that they can't intervene, when really they can. because of course, these laws are meant to protect women as well as babies. and that was always a ridiculous argument, but i feel like this shows just how ridiculous it is. because, this was someone who was seeking clarity, the senator for -- is seeking clarity. and if they had gotten that clarity, if you had had say ken paxton, the attorney general of texas, either abiding by the lower court ruling, not threatening hospitals, that if they let this abortion go forward after the lower court ruling said it should be permitted, that he was, that they would face possible prosecutions. >> felonies! >> if he hadn't done, that it would strengthen these argument that they're actually, that we might ban abortion, but that we actually do have good faith exemptions for people in emergency situation. >> and that we care about the women, who are carrying these children. >> right, and it's like, this pregnancy, her pregnancy is doomed, so it's not a matter of saving a baby. and so they could have, if they had wanted to i think man made their abortion ban look slightly more politically palatable, but they couldn't do that. you saw him, it's true that some republicans don't want to talk about this, but ken paxton seems happy talk about this, right. he was willing to fight this woman and her doctor, and her lawyer, like personally and to the bitter end. and for what? >> the personal, the personal punishment directed at this woman by the state, telling her that she wasn't effectively dying enough to merit in abortion, is unthinkable. the idea that a man whatever have to go to a panel of judges to get a fifth sack me, and then be denied it through the appeals process, it's just not something that whatever happened in america. and i think that there are women, men, people across the country who look at this and say wow, overturning roe was one thing, this is another level of cruelty. unusual cruelty here. >> >> just setting aside the human cost of this, the political cost of this seems extraordinary for republicans. >> right, and i think that it's important to realize that as much as, what makes this case unique is not kate cox's medical circumstances, it's her unbelievable bravery and being willing to go public and fight this, in the middle of a catastrophe that a lot of other women in texas and other states with abortion bans have faced. >> the notion that there are these people out there who very much want these children, who look like republican voters, cannot get them. and you have to go out of state, or put themselves through these ordeals, is just decidedly un-american. and that is what is unfolding in the state of texas today. michelle goldberg, always writing soberly about the horrible issues of our time. it's great to see you. coming up, evangelicals in iowa have propelled donald trump to a record lead, with just over a month to go until the caucuses. we are going to discuss the evangelical alignment with the maga base, that's next. maga base, that's next each planning their future through the chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment. three jens getting ahead with chase. solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make 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(dog bark) it's simply fresh meat and vegetables, with all the nutrients dogs need— instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it's amazing what real food can do. hey! sarah! if you had to choose would you listen to elevator music all day or deal with payroll compliance? payroll compliance, for sure. gusto automatically calculates and files my taxes for me. hold up, compliance? easier? i had this sense that we were choose payroll compliance without the ups and downs. that's working with gusto. going to come to a red sea moment, in our republican conference, and the country at large. and the lord coming very clearly, prepare, and be ready, be ready for? what we're coming to a red sea moment? what does that mean. we are ultimately 13 people who ran for the post. and the lord kept telling me to wait, wait, wait. so i waited, i waited and then at the end when it came to the and the lord said now, step forward. >> mike johnson, the most powerful elected republican in the country last week, described his call to run for speaker. johnson said that god had revealed to him that johnson would be a moses-like figure, helping to lead the republican party and the country through a red sea moment. which is, quite a call. as an evangelical, johnson often use a scripture to promote policy goals. he has a history of questioning the separation of church and state, he essentially believes that the bible is a governing document. and that puts him right in the mainstream of american evangelicals today, who want to combine church teachings with policy. now a new nbc news des moines register poll shows donald trump with 51% support in iowa. it is the largest lead ever recorded by a republican this close to the caucuses. and, it is due entirely to trump's support among a majority of evangelicals in that state. and that's different from eight years ago, when trump lost iowa to ted cruz. back then, trump only had the support of one in five evangelical voters. tim alberta writes in his new book, the kingdom, the power, in the glory, american evangelicals in an age of extremism, that for decades, evangelicals were skeptical of engaging in politics, or straying from their central focus on the churches teachings. that all changed in the 1970s and 80s, with the advent of jerry falwell and the moral majority. falwell, alberta writes, made a conscious decision to start packaging the cross with the flag, and others followed. under fouls to tillage, alberta writes, preachers who once wanted total detachment from worldly affairs, or now trafficking in ads of civilizational collapse, and winning huge audiences of older conservative christians who fear that the american apocalypse wasn't i. in recent years, trump's pugilism of cultural morris has more evangelicals yearning for combat politics in the pulpit. to some evangelicals, alberta writes, the purpose of the church is now to own the libs with an aggressive, identity therrien conservatism. tim alberta has spent the last four years traveling the country, reporting from inside the modern evangelical movement, and he joins me, coming up next. g up next only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ teeth sensitivity is so common. it immediately feels like somebody's poking directly on the nerve. i recommend sensodyne. sensodyne toothpaste goes inside the tooth and calms the nerve down. and my patients say you know doc, it really works. i'm a little anxious, i'm a little excited. i'm gonna be emotional, she's gonna be emotional, but it's gonna be so worth it. i love that i can give back to one of our customers. i hope you enjoy these amazing gifts. oh my goodness. oh, you guys. i know you like wrestling, so we got you some vip tickets. you have made an impact. so have you. for you guys to be out here doing something like this, donald trump is not what you it restores a lot of faith in humanity. would call a model christian, he is not into asking for gods forgiveness, he could not name a single verse, and everest when asked for his favorite bible passage. he has openly mocked conservative religious leaders. but beyond his handling of the supreme court over two hard-line conservatives, evangelicals continue to see donald trump as their defender. the atlantic's tim alberta has a new book out, and in that, he questions how and why the evangelical movement has flocked towards politicians like trump. politician saw the pointlessness in talk about servant hood about humility, about unity and peace and love hyundai neighbor. the market for such a message had long since disappeared. the demand was for domination, and republicans like trump and desantis or happy to supply it. they are appeal to evangelicals had everything to do with acting like champions, and nothing to do with acting like christ. joining me now is tim alberta, staff writer for the atlantic, and author of this new, formidably excellent tome, the kingdom, the power, and the glory, american evangelicals in an age of extremism. tim, thank you for being here, congratulations on, it's so deeply reported, and so well written, and so of the moment. >> thank you. >> thank you for being here. first, trace if you will, how trump effectively went from being like a punch line among religious conservatives, to being there retribution in his words, their hero. >> you know, i think 2016 was just, it was transactional. for everyone involved, right. a lot of these white evangelical supporters who are now his staunchest allies, back then i mean eight years ago, it's like easy to forget now, but they were deeply skeptical of trump. they were highly suspicious of trump. i mean, he had to put mike pence on the ticket, he had to release a list of supreme court nominees, he had to promise to put pro-lifers on the bench. >> he had have leonard leo like sitting on his shoulder. >> truly yes, all of these gestures to sort of assuage those concerns and say listen, i will deliver for you. i'm not one of you, but i will deliver for you. and the folks set, okay, we don't like this guy, we don't trust this guy. but what choice do we have? hillary clinton, it's a binary thing, we are going to give him our votes in exchange for these policies. that transactional relationship has now morphed into something else entirely where they do view him as this protector figure this defender figure and i think in many, ways it sort of boils down to this under siege mentality. you will hear it from christians all over the country, this idea that christianity is in the crosshairs, that they're idealized christian america is slipping away. and if the barbarians are at the gates, then we need a barbarian to fight for, us to defend our way of life. and that's how they've come to view trump. >> i have to ask, because there was the same sort of feeling from conservatives in the 1970s, and some agree the beginning of the 80s that they were under assault from the liberal minority, desegregation, the end of school prayer, and this is the environment in which jerry falwell created the moral majority. trump's sort of ascendance in the evangelical movement seems and more radical, much more radical version of that fight. i wonder whether that's a testament to donald trump just juicing the evangelical movement and making it angrier and more key tap or whether the movement itself is on its way down that path of desiring someone so aggressive, so much of pugilist? >> i think it's a combination of those things. there's no question that steadily here over the last 50 years much of the white evangelical movement has been conditioned more and more to expect not just to be in the culture wars but to dominate the culture wars. i would also say that the rules of engagement have evolved. there was a time when folks who were part of the crusade with falwell, sort of recognize that at the end of the day we are christians. we care about these issues. we care about winning republican elections, but we are, above all, christians, our citizenship is in heaven, we need to adhere to biblical teachings. the >> the bible was on the front burner. >> in other words, they were viewing politics the prism of their fate instead of now i think at the heart of the problem a lot of these folks are viewing their fate through the prism of politics. this in justifies the means politics. jerry falwell senior launched this almost holy war against jimmy carter in part because if you recall jimmy carter had the temerity to give an interview to playboy magazine in 1976. you come full circle 50 years later, cherry fall will junior, after vouching for donald trump in front of all roomful of evangelicals, they pose for a photo back to trump tower, thumbs up in front of playboy magazine. that 50 year arc went from politics being downstream of culture to culture and everything else being downstream of politics. if we don't win these elections, if we don't dominate east culture wars, than nothing else matters. >> you mentioned some inflection points and crises, domestically, that ratchet up the temperature and make donald trump ever more, even more positioned to be the savior of the evangelical movement or voters. one of them is covid. can you talk about the way in which, ways unseen to the broader public, the way in which that affected the evangelical community? >> listen, this ties into what we were just discussing. the seeds of the moral panic here were sown along time ago. specifically if you grew up in the evangelical world, as i did, you're very familiar with this armageddon rhetoric, this idea that an imminent clash in america between the good god fearing bible believe in christians who want to preserve our today a christian heritage and those godless evil secularists of the culture who want to weaponize government and come after us, we go shutdown are churches, persecute christians, just abolish god from public life. so if you have been suing in that rhetoric and those warnings of the apocalypse, suddenly covid-19 arrives and you have these governors issuing shutdown orders, telling people they can't go to church, even if it's just for a couple of weeks. alex, a lot of people in that setting say yes, see, i told you. we knew this day was coming. it was just a matter of time. and then really it became this question of, okay, are you going to stand-your-ground and fight? fight for your beliefs, your country, your god, where are you gonna be a coward? a gonna back down? you're gonna get pushed around by the regime and by these evil secularists? you just can't overstate how deeply that divide grew and how it really fractured congregations around the country, including pastors who, check every box, their conservative theologically, culturally, politically, these are not progressive pastors in these churches. but they said okay i'll shut down my church for a few weeks for public health to protect my cardigans, love your neighbor. just try to be self sacrificial. they became marxists. they became apostates overnight. they lost

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