at this hour, president zelenskyy is in washington pushing for critical aid for his country's existential fight against russia. his visit capped off by a meeting at the white house with president biden. in a few minutes the two leaders will hold a press conference. we'll bring you that live when it happens. we begin with a stunning revelation by the special counsel jack smith in the federal election interference trial. for the first time, the special counsel's office says it has data from donald trump's cellphone, and they plan to show how trump used his phone in the days and weeks after the election, including on january 6th. in a court filing last night previewing expert testimony, the prosecutors plan to bring to the case, jack smith says he plans to call to the stand an expert who extracted and reviewed data from trump's phone and the phone of another individual who's currently unidentified. special counsel said the expert will, quote, testify that he or she analyzed data on the defendant's phone and on individual one's phone including analyzing images found on the phones and websites visited. the expt also, quote, determined the usage of these phones throughout the post-election period including on and around january 6th, 2021. the expert even, quote, identified the periods of time during which the defendant's phone was unlocked, and the twitter application was open on january 6th. what donald trump said and did on january 6th, who he talked to, what he himself posted to twitter are some of the biggest outstanding questions around the insurrection. the work of the january 6th select committee often turned up more questions than answers. >> on the screen is the presidential call log from january 6th. as you can see, there's no official record of president trump receiving or placing a call between 11:06 and 6:54 p.m. because the presidential call log is empty, we do not yet know precisely which senators president trump was calling. we do know from rudy giuliani's phone records that president trump also called him at 1:39. after he had been told that the riot was under way at the capitol. >> so are you aware of any phone call by the president of the united states to the secretary of defense that day? >> not that i'm aware of, no. >> are you aware of any phone call by the president of the united states to the attorney general of the united states that day? >> no. >> are you aware of any phone call by the president of the united states to the secretary of homeland security that day? >> i am not aware of that, no. >> did you speak to president trump on his private cellphone on either january 5th or 6th? >> on advice of counsel, i will assert my right to decline to answer your question. >> that's where we begin with national investigative reporter for "the washington post" carol lennig, official at thedent justice, andrew weis man, and editor at large for the bulwark, charlie sykes. welcome to all of you. thank you for being with us. carol, it's not that we didn't know in broad strokes what donald trump was up to on january 6th, but this introduces a level of granularity. tell me what you understand about this and what it helps us understand and what it helps us determine. >> you know, i think you can read this two ways, ali. one is, oh, my goodness, that jack smith sure is going to the ends of the earth to make sure he has the records he needs to explain what happened on the days before january 6th and the actual day. what was in the president's hand, mind, and what he was -- what kind of communications he was engaging in. on other hand, you can see it as good, old-fashioned investigations by a prosecutor and fbi agents. getting the baseline material to tell the story of what donald trump did, who he talked to, and i think it will probably prove true in this trial that what jack smith is going to present from these phone records is basically corroboration. here's who donald trump called after he found out there was a riot in full-blown force on the capitol lawn and rushing up the stairs and breaching the halts of congress. here's what donald trump tweeted when he knew that vice president pence was on this location. and possibly some new revelations, who did he call right before, who did he call right after? this i think is like the bread and butter of being a federal investigator and prosecutor. you tell the story, and you also corroborate it with something that's incontrovertible. >> let's talk to a guy who's been that federal prosecutor. andrew weissman. tell me about this. what is it meant to establish, and is it meant to answer questions that we don't know, or is it meant to underscore suppositions that jack smith already has made? >> well, we don't know the answer to that yet, but i have to say carol has it exactly right. so the first thing that you use this for is the same way you used to use telephone records, just sort of from when you used rotary phones and you got call records just to place -- create a timeline of exactly what happened when. and you can be sure that both on january 6th and the days leading up to it and the days after, the prosecution is going to want to present to a jury very precise details about exactly what happened. and then on the speculative part, which carol started alluding to, it could be that we learn who he spoke to. we could see images on that phone, for instance, of his seeing what was happening in the capitol because there's a reference in the smith filing that was made to judge chutkan that they captured websites and images from that phone. there also could be deletion was that phone, and there could be evidence with respect to what is it that donald trump or his allies did not want the jury to see. so it remains to be seen exactly how valuable that evidence is, but at its pure baseline it is going to be something that is used to give hard evidence to create a firm timeline that you then can put all the other pieces, the witness testimony, into -- fit it into that particular presentation that the prosecution is going to present to the jury. >> charlie sykes, obviously this may not matter to the people who are deliberating in this trial, but it matters to everybody else. donald trump, isn't -- he doesn't broadly dispute some of the things that he does. he says "i didn't incite a riot, i didn't incite an insurrection. i didn't say the things you think i said." i don't know, maybe the law and the courts will settle that. for donald trump it's always that somebody misunderstood or misconstrued him. >> there's also the emerging argument, yeah, you know, i said all those things because i thought the election was being stolen, and the people who attacked the capitol are, in fact, heroes. he's made it clear that he intends to embrace them. he's recorded songs with them and will probably pardon many on the first day. what i think we'll be reminded of is that jack smith knows a lot more than we think he necessarily knows, and we're going to get to the question of what did donald trump know, when did he know it, who did he call, what was he doing during all of those hours? now i don't think we're going to be shocked to find out what happened, but this jury is going to get a much clearer picture of that day, what donald trump was doing and thinking and not doing, than we've seen so far. and that's interesting because i think we've gone along -- we've seen a lot, we've read a lot, we went through the january 6th hearings. but that jury is going to have a much more complete picture than any of us so far, assuming that this trial goes ahead as we expect that it will. >> andrew weissman, i'm appreciative that you made reference to rotary phones it made me feel very comfortable in my age. here's the cbs news reporting that says john bolton, the former national security adviser in the trump administration, told cbs news on tuesday he had heard the former president, donald trump, use the phrase "burner phones" in discussions and the former president knew what it meant. like i don't know, these guys are pretty hip. i'm not clear on when you get a burner phone. i know what they are. talk about this concept of there maybe having been burner phones. >> well, this is something that we were aware of when i worked for special counsel mueller. liz cheney in her new book makes reference to this, and now we're talking about information from a personal phone. all of this is something that is the irony is quite deep for anyone who followed the 2016 election where donald trump was daily criticizing hillary clinton, his rival, for having used a server that was outside of the state department and having this information at home as opposed to a government system. but it is widely been known for a long time that donald trump and many other people within the white house, it's been reported, used nongovernment phones or applications like signal to communicate. that is not proper for people in the -- in government, in the executive branch, the department of justice, particularly if you are a presidential appointee or you have to maintain all presidential records. so one of the ironies here is that you have somebody who ran on a platform of denigrating that kind of conduct, and now it's almost a commonplace that you learn about people in the white house under donald trump, including donald trump using communication styles that were deliberately avoiding the presidential records act and maintaining a record of exactly what was happening. >> and carol, there's always discussions about donald trump and his has densy to use email -- his hesitancy to use email or text. what he does on -- a question for years when donald trump ial were full of errors and -- incorrect capitalization. is this really him? i want to point you back to some january 6th testimony in which the white house aide nick luna said that the trump tweet that went out at 6:01 p.m. on that day would seem to be justifying violence was typed it up by donald trump himself. then i'll ask you something about it on the other side. >> at 6:01, one minute after the citywide curfew went into effect, he posted his last tweet of the day. after officers engaged in multiple hours of hand-to-hand combat with over 100 of them sustaining injuries, president trump tweeted at 6:01, and justified the violence as a natural response to the election. >> who asked you about there tweet before it was sent? >> the president. >> tell us about that conversation. everything that you said and he said to the best of your recollection. >> sure. so he said, what do you think of this? and i believe i saw the text message -- on his phone, and i remember saying to him, the wording on the first sentence i guess it's one long sentence, but the wording on the first sentence would lead some to believe that potentially he had something to do with the events that happened at the capitol. >> so carol, it becomes uniquely relevant in this case as to whether donald trump wrote and sent that particular tweet. >> absolutely it's relevant. and important because donald trump's state of mind as we've talked a lot about on this program is critical to saying what did he hope would happen, what did he intend. in fact, i remember my co-author and i, when we wrote a book about the last year of donald trump's presidency, we went to visit him and interview him on the record. he was no longer president, but he was in mar-a-lago. and we asked him, what did you want to happen. and that day -- that day. he said, i wanted what the protesters wanted. i wanted what they wanted, which was essentially to break into the capitol and stop the certification of the vote. that intent is critical. but it's just as critical to see that he personally signed off on or authored the tweet that put vice president pence in even graver danger. remember, there were rioters outside the capitol that day with a noose, and they were calling for basically pence's execution, rounding him up is what their goal was that day, at least that's what they were chanting. and so each of the steps that donald trump took sometimes using his phone, are pretty important to laying out the scheme of what -- what did he want, what was he goading, what was he enabling, inciting, encouraging. >> charlie, andrew and i were discussing this yesterday. we're going from a 50,000-foot look in jack smith's indictment into stuff that becomes pretty granular. and you know, some of it feels process-y, but some of it is evidence and proof of things going on, has not been tried in a court, but we are hearing about these things and seeing these things. does it getting granular make it more real and less abstract for people who are still prepared to support donald trump? >> well, you'd hope so. but yes, it does make it more real. and of course you know, when this trial begins, going to be very real for that jury and for the people following this. obviously this is going to be consuming a lot of attention. but i think that it's naive to think that many of the people who are now prepared to renominate donald trump have not processed who donald trump is and what he has done. they figured out a way to rationalize it. donald trump is going to be the republican nominee in less than 90 days. after super tuesday. the day after this trial is scheduled to begin, they vote. and this nomination is over at that point. the question, though, is whether or not jack smith can present something that is new and more compelling enough to basically make people step back and say do we really want to do this. again, i don't think there's any prospect the republicans are going back away from this at this point. but yes, he's going to tell a very, very compelling story that is -- that i think is going to be quite riveting. >> andrew weissman, you know, we depend on you to understand this granularity. but we also -- have a great podcast called "prosecuting donald trump." i want you to pull back from the granularity and tell us where you think we are and how this process looks. a combination of the petition that jack smith took to the supreme court that they responded and have said that donald trump needs to respond to that by december 20th, and then this -- these things, we probably going to be hearing about these things several times a week between now and the trial. >> well, i think if you want to pull the lens way back in terms of what we can expect between now and election day, is that assuming that the supreme court takes the certification that jack smith has filed and decides the issue presidential immunity and decides that the former president is not immune, which i think is likely the result here, you're going to have a trial in the spring. you could very well have a conviction later in the spring, early summer. and you could even have a sentencing of as charlie said the republican nominee where you have someone who is convicted, who is still, by the way, able to run for president, and you could have someone who if he wins, who is convicted and elected at which point if he is the new president, he can get rid of that case no matter what sort of stage it's in. he would be able to order his department of justice to get rid of it. of course, if he were not to be convicted, that's -- that could happen, as well. and of course, if he did not win the presidency, he would remain convicted and could be going to jail depending on what judge chutkan does. so that's sort of the picture obviously right now. everyone's very focused on the immediate issue of what the supreme court is going to be doing. we should know that very soon. the papers from donald trump are due in about a week, and i suspect that we will hear shortly after that from the supreme court whether they will take this issue. >> as always, we appreciate your insight, andrew, carol, thank you for spending time with us this afternoon. charlie's going to be back later in the show. when we come back, as we mentioned, president biden and the ukrainian president are meeting right now at the white house. zelenskyy implored lawmakers on the hill today for more aid in its fight against russia. we'll talk to one member of congress about the urge see in his request and the resistance from the right. the two leaders are going to hold a joint news conference from the east room. we're going to bring you that live when it begins. later, rudy giuliani, who's already been found liable of defaming two georgia election workers at once, apparently was again outside the very courthouse for his trial determining the damages he must pay those election workers as the jury heard harrowing testimony from one of the workers. plus, the other big federal case against the ex-president. reporting on the person who allegedly moved some of the boxes at mar-a-lago. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. tinues after this i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. thanks to skyrizi i'm playing with clearer skin. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. with skyrizi, nothing on my skin means everything! ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. 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have in house. more than 30% of the fortune 500 use upwork because this is how we work now. any moment now president biden and ukrainian president zelenskyy will, merge from a closed door meeting at the white house and hold a joint press conference to address the need for an aid package for ukraine. this morning president zelenskyy was on capitol hill where he made the case to lawmakers that time is of the essence when it comes to securing additional funding from the united states for his country. he warned that without the aid the war could turn far more brutal at the hands of russian forces. republican lawmakers, however, seem unmoved in their resistance to passing more aid without tying it to u.s. immigration policy. the house speaker, mike johnson doubled down following his meeting with zelenskyy. today in an effort to show that the aid has dealt a serious blow to vladimir putin the biden administration declassified new intelligence showing that the russian military has faced a staggering 315,000 troops that have been killed or wounded since the war began. joining us now is a member of the house armed services committee, democratic congresswoman mikey sherrill of new jersey. great to see you. i'm sorry if i have to interrupt you because the press conference has started. there are few people as qualified to discuss this as you. a form pilot in the navy, you worked in europe on matters relating to russia. and you understand is the importance of this. this is not just about whether ukraine suffers a bit if we don't get this funding done. it has sent shockwaves around the world that this might be a sign that america is backing down a bit for this fight, which will be a signal to a whole lot of other people that maybe they need to back down from this fight, too. >> you know, that's exactly right. and something i'm critically concerned about. it's also a sign not just to our allies and nato allies, it's also a sign to people who wish to do us harm. so we know that this is an alignment against not just the freedom of the ukrainian people with the unprovoked russian invasion, but also against u.s. interests. so we've seen putin having hamas come visit him to talk. we know he's used iranian drones in southern ukraine. we know there is work being done on an oil gas pipeline to china. so all of these interests, people who don't have the best interests of the united states and our people at heart are really lining up against us and despite, that's why it's so critical we continue this support, we stay strong with our allies in nato to make sure that we don't give any ground in this fight for democracy and our values across the world. >> we have two issues. one is there's -- there's always fatigue about these wars, people lose a little bit of interest in the whole thing, they kind of grind to a halt. and then there's the issue of -- of people just, you know, looking at other things and thinking about other things as priorities. how do you deal with that when this is a situation in which russia just went into another country, and vladimir putin is out there warning that -- why you think this will stop with ukraine, why do you think russia won't go after a neighboring country even a nato countri? >> not just that but judge shouldn't chinaing -- why isn't china watching and what if they want to take offer taiwan, for example, something that we are working to deter. these are al of the things being calculated. to your point about fatigue, i think we haven't conveyed to the american people well enough the success of the effort so far, and what american support has been able to do in ukraine. so we have kept the port of odesa open for the ukrainians. they have been able to ship out grain, grain that feeds large parts of the african continent, critical to the world food supply. we've ensured that they've been able to largely hold the russians at bay, keeping kyiv safe, the capital city, with our patriot missiles. and we also have been working hard to re-up their industrial defense base, making sure pretty soon and some point in the future they're going to be able to take over their own munitions supply. and we know how good that is because it was ukraine that supplied large parts of the soviet union during the cold war. so these are the things we're working on. these are the successes we are seeing, and nothing is stronger than the courage of the ukrainian people and the ability of ukrainian people to utilize everything we've given them to continue to make sure that they are fighting strongly against the russians. >> there's nothing wrong with wanting to deal with issues on the southern border. how do we have that conversation? that's been a decades' long issue that has not seen a good resolution, and it ought to see a good resolution. how do you convince republicans that this is existential for global safety, and the other one is serious and is also to some degree a national security issue but should be separated out. >> well, i think at this point it's becoming clear that i think some level of border security is going to be part of the supplemental, that is what we're negotiating now. i'm glad to see people are back at the table. should we mix and match domestic policy with foreign policy, i would suggest no. but that is the point that we are at. and it's critical that we both make sure we're getting the supplemental done, and also addressing some of our border security and immigration concerns. i would remind people that a lot of the supplement will be going to our own u.s. defense manufacturing base, to u.s. jobs, u.s. companies, here at home. things that we have been wanting to do since before russia even invaded ukraine, making sure we had a modern defense base here at home. and also when we talk about comprehensive immigration reform, you're exactly right, we've seen a republican president and a republican senate and a republican house do nothing on this issue. we've seen a democratic president and a democratic senate and a democratic house not get anything done on this issue. we need to to work together in a bipartisan way to make sure we're addressing our security at the border, to make sure we are providing pathways to citizenship, and addressing immigration so we have high-skilled labor to fuel our innovation, so we have seasonal workers to help our rural farm areas. these are all things that i hear about from people across this country, our immigration system is broken, and we really do need to all come to the table in a bipartisan way because that's really the only way forward. >> i want to just play for my audience who the speaker of the house, mike johnson, said actually after meeting with volodymer zelenskyy. let's listen to that together. >> we need clear articulation of the strategy to allow ukraine to win. and thus far, their responses have been insufficient. they have not provided the clarity and detail that we requested over and over since literally 24 hours after i was happened the gavel as speaker of the house. and so what the biden administration seems to be asking for is billions of additional dollars with no appropriate oversight, no clear strategy to win, and none of the answers that i think the american people are owed. i have also made very clear from day one that our first condition on any national security supplemental spending package is about our own national security first. >> okay. our own national security is the border stuff he's talking about. take that away from that conversation. he's talking -- and i ask you this as a u.s. navy veteran -- he's asking for a clear articulation of the objectives and strategy. that doesn't sound unfair. however, if one looks at the last almost two years of this war, whatever america's been doing has been pretty good. it brought nato back to the table. it got everybody to up their spending in europe. we're not spending as much as the other partners in this war are in -- in helping ukraine. so tell me what you believe he wants that would satisfy him in terms of a clear arcticlations of the strategy -- jar ticklation of the strategi? >> i would say that most people in the national security space when we're talking about our own national security here at home, what is critical to that is making sure that we are supporting our own defense manufacturing base which this supplemental does, making sure that we are supporting democracy around the world against our enemies such as russia, such as hamas, which the supplemental would help to do. i think that he wants to have an articulation of why this support is working, and i have to tell you if he doesn't have that, then he's just not listening. when we see, again, the ability -- you know, russia and turkey backed off of their agreement to keep the port of odesa open, and yet we and our nato allies helped the ukrainians keep that port open, keep the grain shipments going so they could help feed the world and also support their own economy. we have kept russia at bay. a military that before this war started was considered the second-best military in the world. and now i think many people say that they're only the second-best military in ukraine. we've seen the fighters on the ground able to push back strongly against them, keep those -- those borders from shifting, keep kyiv safe, keep the mainland safe and the economic stronghold, the manufacturing stronghold in the east free of the russians so they again can run their economy. these are the successes that america and our nato allies have allowed for ukraine. and beyond that, we are ensuring that russia does not then expand its borders further into places like latvia, lithuania, estonia, poland, areas of europe that are very worried about what russia might turn to next should they somehow be successful in ukraine. >> and the former president of estonia is standing by after this conversation to talk to us about this because a lot of people say that seems -- you know, that seems to be an exaggeration. volodymyr zelenskyy wants to be careful, right, he wants to be careful that he doesn't say we're going to lose this war if we don't have the money by the end of the year. he can't go home and say that. this thing has been fought sometimes with supplemental funding and things that ukraine gets at the last minute and asks the world for and the world considers for a long time. there could be a moment where ukraine lose this war and we have to take that seriously and understand what the consequences are if that happens. >> well, i think just as importantly we have to understand that putin has an election coming up in march. and he is very much going to want to declare some sort of victory here. and he congratulated the republicans for blocking the supplemental so far. so obviously he sees this as a big win. we see where his messaging is going. if the united states does not pass this, if we show weakness here, if our nato allies follow our lead and show weakness here, he is going to take a big victory lap in march. and we know that russian misinformation, if he can turn the full impact of his intelligence services to that misinformation, we know how damaging that could be even to our elections here at home. so i think it's critically important that as a nation we stand behind democracy. we stand behind supporting our allies, behind our nato allies, as we push farther to make sure ukrainians have what they need to fight, but also -- and i can't emphasize this enough to people as americans are thinking about how their tax dollars are being spent, i can't emphasize enough how important and critical this supplemental is to our own u.s. defense base as we are looking at instability across the world, as we are looking at combating the chinese influence in the south china sea, the possible chinese desire to overtake taiwan, the deterrence we want there. this is so critical to our own defense manufacturing base here at home. >> and that's a very interesting and separate conversation that i'd like to invite you back to have with me at one point. you and i got to have a nice conversation. quite sure from minute one we were going to be interrupted so i appreciate the time with you. congresswoman mikie sherrill of new jersey. we'll keep our eyes on the east room of the white house for the conference. the room is full of people. they're ready to go at some point. presidents biden and zelenskyy are going to walk out. we'll be right back. e going to . we'll be right back. every day, more dog people, and more vets are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. they're quitting the kibble. and kicking the cans. and feeding their dogs dog food that's actually well, food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. get 50% off your first box - [female narrator] they line up by the thousands. each one with a story that breaks your heart. like ravette... every step, brought her pain. their only hope: mercy ships. the largest floating civilian hospital in the world. bringing free surgeries to people who have no other hope. $19 a month will help provide urgently needed surgery for so many still suffering. so don't wait, call the number on your screen. or donate at mercyships.org. i'm angry, and i'm disappointed. angry that we would consider walking away from ukraine at this moment in history, for almost two years they have fought off the most powerful military in the world, given their lives to do it, and we said we'd stand by your side. now some members of congress have grown impatient. they want it over with. they don't want to talk about it anymore. they're still giving their lives every day, and we're impatient. just makes me angry to think this is what happened. and what does it mean in the future when the united states says we're on your side, does it mean anything if we walk away from ukraine? i don't think so. >> senate majority leader whip dick durbin of illinois after a meeting today with republicans and president zelenskyy. let's bring in the former united states ambassador to russia and msnbc international affairs analyst, michael mcfall, and the former president of estonia who helped bring his country into both the european union and nato. good to see both of you gentlemen. president, you're uniquely qualified for this conversation having been the former president of estonia and somebody who has spent a lot of time in the united states. you understand american politics. and volodymyr zelenskyy got himself into it today because they sort of tried to tell him, republicans were telling him, well, we have this border disputes, this internal matter that we have to deal with, and he didn't say anything reportedly back to the senator, senator graham, who was doing that. he's trying to make the point that your very valid internal disputes in the united states are separate from our existential fight. tell me a bit more about this idea. >> well, i mean, first of all, what's odd is that it's the republicans who for i guess my entire life were the party that was more invested in defending freedom around the world than democrats. i mean, taking far stronger position. they were known as the hawks. and especially in the case of people like senator graham who was a reel national security expert -- a real national security expert. i don't understand where this is coming from. the equivalence between border security and the security of basically the free world is it's kind of spurious. the united states, if there's one country that can walk and chew gum at the same time, it is the united states. >> ambassador mcfall, what are we missing here? because what the president said is correct, this is not -- this is something america can handle. is this -- are we watching just a domestic political squeeze at the moment where republicans understand that at some point we're going to have to approve this funding, and so let's get there border stuff done that we want. what are we watching here? >> tragically that is what we're watching. we used to walk and chew gum at the same time. we used to be able to handle multiple security issues and domestic issues at the same time. and i want to remind all your viewers it was the republicans that just months ago were saying we need to have clean bills to vote on individual topics individually. they were the ones saying we shouldn't link things that are not appropriately linked together. now they've changed their attitude because they know how desperate the president is, rightfully so, to get this money through. i find it to be really deeply disturbing because i don't think they understand how weak this looks, makes the united states look around the world. not just in ukraine, not just in estonia, although i'll let the president talk about, that but around the world. if we say, hey, wait a minute, we want to debate something domestically here, we're going to delay aid, what signal does that send to people in taiwan? what signal does that send to all of our partners around the world that we have become fekless. it's dangerous to the soldiers in ukraine, but i think to america's reputation around the world, as well. >> i spent a lot of time -- we'll continue to watch the east room. i'll need to interrupt you gentlemen when the presidents walk out. president ilves, i spent time talking to you gentlemen about nato and its important and how that's waned for a while and under the trump administration, some thought that alliance was actually in danger. we thought we might have fixed that in the last two or three years. now it looks like there are some of our nato partners who are fearful that the commitment isn't there. we talk a lot about estonia, latvia, lithuania, poland, who are very worried about the fact that they do come into russia's cross hairs, and if santa doesn't act as strong as it's looked and act the last two years there could be greater russian expansionism across europe. >> well, i would say that until recently people in this part of the world were not so concerned because we have complete and utter faith in nato and in the united states. recent developments, some of the rhetoric coming out in the presidential debates that we were watching closely and some of the statements of various senators makes us are think this. you know, just today or yesterday, there -- on the border with -- with russia, across from estonia, the government of russia put up a big billboard saying -- with a bear saying russia knows no borders. >> wow. >> this is a pretty good -- pretty heavy little message there. now clearly much of this is designed to intimidate and to get people to be nervous so we do our best not to be nervous, but we have to be rational and think about what one is to do. we have, as you know, had a long discussion in europe among nato partners about this french concept of strategic autonomy which i would say the east europeans have predicted the four countries you mentioned have been most opposed to this idea because we've considered it vital that the united states maintain this presence here. on the other hand, the way things are going, we're going to have to start taking seriously the concept or the idea, the potential that the united states will not be around in europe. >> and ambassador mcfall, that's a very serious thing. the united states has seen with a number of conflicts around the world in this moment that its influence is better than not having its influence. it may -- people may not want america to be the world's police force, but to some -- sometimes it's helpful. we saw in south america, venezuela making incursions or threatening incursion into ghana. and we sent american fighter planes over that border to send a message don't get into this mess. talk to me about this waning that president ilves talks about that. that if you decide maybe we aren't going to be there and we have to think about it differently, what's the global implication of that? >> it's huge. it means we're no longer a reliable partner for our european allies, for our asianal lights, our partners around the world -- asian allies, our partners around the world. people are going to hedge bets, start thinking maybe the americans won't come to our rescue, maybe they won't provide artillery shells to save, you know, in the instance of taiwan. so maybe they're going to have to cut a deal with xi jinping rather than rely on us. in other words it has giant implications well beyond what's happening in ukraine. what's so frustrating about this for me, ali, is that most senators actually agree with what i just said. the last vote in the u.s. house of representatives on aid to ukraine before speaker -- the speaker fiasco, was 300 in support, 100 against. so what is happening here even though they understand it's america's national interest, they're trying to get something else, immigration reform, to tie it to this. and i think they're playing with fire here. i don't think they're understanding the long-term negative implications of doing so. remember, the ukrainian soldiers, these brave warriors, without a single american or estonian soldier fighting with them has debilitated, itself demolished by 300,000 soldiers the russian army. that means the threat to europe is a lot less than two years ago. that is a great deal for american national security, and we should keep doing it. >> we are watching the east room. there's a bit of a delay in the plan. we are supposed to be seeing president biden and president zelenskyy. i can only imagine that means they're having a hearty conversation. these are two men who have enjoyed a very good relationship since the beginning of this war. president biden, as you know, took that storied trip right to kyiv on the first anniversary of the war, end of february will be the second anniversary of the war. there was some fear, president ilves, it was articulated by the polish president and articulated a lot by president zelenskyy that if this gets to year two unresolved, chances of russia being emboldened are greater. congresswoman sherrill was talking about the fact that vladimir putin is running for re-election. his -- the person who would cause him the biggest threat happens to be in jail, alexei navalny, but he has disappeared. nobody has seen him in a few days, they haven't accounted for where he is. bottom line is we do stand the chance that in the first quarter of 2024, the world is facing an emboldened vladimir putin who's got his eyes and his fingers in various places around the world. >> well, i mean, it's quite clear that the russians used last year's winter to build a very strong defensive line, heavily mined for miles on end, to prevent any kind of serious counterattack. they did that because they were not getting enough assistance. now people are saying why didn't the -- why didn't the ukrainians do better in their counteroffensive while every military person, especially american generals, say well, you can't do a combined -- a combined counteroffensive without airport support which is precisely the problem. we have not given them the air support. we have not given them the kind of attack guns they need which are longer range and carry explosives rather than anti-personnel shells. the same go actually -- holds for germany and the tarris missile. neither europe nor the united states is able to produce enough shells -- i mean, these are issues for us, as well. i mean, we live in a world which we cannot produce our own -- meet our own requirements, this shows how much work we have to do. in order to face the reality of conflicts and threats to liberal democracies around the world. >> i want to continue that conversation another time, but she made the point that we have us here in the united states working 24/7 to produce art tul ri and shells with the various conflicts going on around the world. first of all, now that we see this head-on shot. that's clearly not the east room. but it is the white house. i'm going to ask you two gentlemen to hang around. we're going to take a quick break and come back. if the presidents come out in the meantime, we'll pop back immediately. please standby. we're coming back with more in a minute. we're coming back with ma minute e's a better option than hand washing. switch to your dishwasher and cascade platinum plus. it uses the power of dawn to thoroughly clean your dishes removing 99% of grease and food residue. all you have to do is scrape, load, and you're done! (♪♪) cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. i'll be home for christmas. you can count on me. please have snow and mistletoe. and presents under the tree right now, all over the country, kids at shriners hospitals for children® are able to go home and be with their families for the holidays. and it's only possible because of the monthly support of people just like you. thanks to a generous donor. every dollar you give can help twice as many kids like me and have double the impact. with your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day, we'll send you this adorable love to the rescue® blanket as a thank you. and a reminder of the care you'll be providing so kids can be with their families. christmas eve will find me. where the love light gleams. it only takes a moment to call the number on your screen. or you can visit loveshriners.org right now on your phone or computer. thanks to a generous donor, your gift will go twice as far and help more kids like me. because every child just wants to be home for the holidays and your gift makes that possible. your call is the best gift of all. your gift will be my favorite christmas present this year. thank you for giving. please call the number on your screen or go online right now with your monthly gift. and when you do, your gift will have two times the impact. so for those who cover the white house, this is not the most unexpected thing in the world. we're probably half an hour late for what we're expecting to be a press conference with president biden and president zelenskyy. they have been meeting in the white house. i don't know whether they started late or whether the meeting is going well, but we're going to hear from them shortly. the press is all there. we usually thought we'd see them in few minutes. i did say something right before the break. i wanted to give you more information about that. i talked about alex say na normal any. he has vanished from the russian prison system. his lawyer, who has been expecting his transfer to a special regime penal colony. he was told by staff at the facility he was previous lu held he had gone there to sort of supervise the transfer that navalny was no longer among the inmates. now in russia, prison transfers can take weeks. they move inmates by a rail. leaving families and lawyers unable to contact them while in transit. one aid posted that the timing of the transfer was zero percent coincidence and political control from the kremlin. the timing they are refer og to is russia's presidential election next march, which vladimir putin announced his candidacy for last friday in a bid to extend his strangle hold on power rivalled only in length by soviet leader joseph stalin. if putin wins that election, he will remain the president of russia until at least 2030, at this point. i know you always raise the issue of alexy na value gnu. navalny. >> it's deeply disturbing. his family doesn't know where he is. his lawyers don't know. i think it's a sign that putin is more confident 37. you were talking about that before the break. he feels like time is on his side. he feels like we're not focusing on these kinds of issues. i can't explain it. i don't know what it's tied to, but i hope that the world will pay attention and figure out what has happened to mr. navalny. >> please standby. we are going to come back in just a moment. we're going to wait for this news conference. we're going to take a break. we have a lot of other news to get to, including another day of testify in the rudy giuliani defamation case. more after the break. rudy giuli defamation case. more after the break che, but this is just right. and i don't like anything. but i like this. get a light scent that lasts with no heavy perfumes or dyes. ( ♪ ♪ ) why are we the only birds heading this way? with no heavy perfumes [ screams ] we're trying to get to jamaica. stay close and... everything will be all right. i'm ok. i'm ok. hi again, everyone. i'm ali velshi. we continue to watch the white house, where we are still awaiting a news conference with president biden and ukrainian president zelenskyy. we're going to bring you that as soon as it begins. we have a team assembled to evaluate what comes out of that meeting. it has been a meeting in which the president of ukraine has made a special request, particularly to republicans in the house and the senate, who have been hesitant to pass the funding. ukraine saying it needs that funding by the end of the year, otherwise it could lose territory and part of this war to russia. president biden invited him to the white house as a result of that plea, but what is happening in congress is that members of congress are tying the agreement to fund ukraine to border security. so what's going on is there are negotiations underway right now to try and figure out some sort of compromise. here we now have the president of the united states and the president of ukraine. >> president zelenskyy, it's an honor to welcome you back to the white house. when president putin launched his brutal total invasion of ukraine in february of 2022 and russian tanks rolled over kyiv, there were those that thought ukraine wouldn't sur is vooif for a month. so no wasn't should forget that for you to be here again today, two years later, and for ukraine to be staying strong and free is an enormous victory already. back the by the strong support of the united states and our allies and partners of more than 50 nations in europe and the indo pacific. ukraine will emerge from this war proud, free, and firmly rooted in the west unless we walk away. the american people should be proud of the part they played in supporting ukraine's success. we'll continue to supply ukraine with critical weapons and equipment as long as we can, including $200 million i just approved today in a critical needed equipment additional air defense interceptors, artillery and ammunition. but without sup is lemt the the funding, we're rapidly coming to an end of our ability to help ukraine respond to the urgent operational demands that it has. putin is banking on the united states failing to deliver for ukraine. we must, we must prove him wrong. the united states and congress must, as i asked last week, and it's stunning we have gotten to this point. we need to fully appreciate how this is being viewed around the world and being used by russia. russian loyalists in moscow celebrated when republicans voted to block ukraine aid last week. the host of a kremlin-run show said, well done, republicans. that's good for us. let me say that again. this host of a kremlin-run show said, well done, republicans, that's good for us. that's a russian speaking. if you're being celebrated by russian prop beganists, it might be time to rethink what you're doing. history will judge harshly those who turn their back freedom's cause. ukraine's freedom is on the line, but if we don't stop putin, he'll endnger the freedom of everyone almost everywhere. putin will keep going and would be aggressors would be emboldened to try to take what they can by force. mr. president, i'll not walk away from ukraine and neither will the american people. a clear bipartisan majority of people across the united states and in congress support your country. they understand the success to deter aggression in the future are vital to security for the world at large. and i have made clear from our first day in office we also the need ukraine to make changes to fix the broken immigration system here. we also need congress to make the changes to fix the broken immigration system here at home. my team is working to try to find a bipartisan compromise both in terms of changes in policy and provide the resources we need to secure the border. compromise is how democracy works. i'm ready and offered compromise already holding ukraine funding hostage is not how it works. we need real solutions. i also asked congress for funding for israel to take on hamas and confront multiple other threats in the wake of the october 7th assault. nassau security adviser sullivan will meet with the war cabinet. to emphasize our commitment to israel has well as the need to protect civilian life and ensure more humanitarian assistance flows and reaches into gaza for palestinian civilians. secretary austin will also travel to the region this week to step up the international efforts to protect the free flow of commerce through the red sea. the entire world is watching what we do. let's show them who we are. america stands for freedom today, tomorrow and always. america stands against tyranny and against oppression and america stands with the people of ukraine. thank you again for being here today, mr. president, and thank you for everything ukraine is doing to hold the line for libty in the world. the floor is yours, mr. president. >> thank you very much, mr. president. i'm glad to be here personally to thank you and tell you what we have achieved together. and these each not only in our country, not only in ukraine but also in poland and baltic stakes and other when freedom is strong. it is strong everywhere when it presents its merits to others. ukrainians have twice to these century defending freedom for nearly two years we have been in a full-scale war. the biggest since world war ii. fighting for freedom, we stand firm, no matter what putin tries, he hasn't won any victories. thanks to ukraine's success in defense, other european nations are safe from the russian aggression, unlike in the past. ukraine can now tackle the russian dictatorship so our children and other nations won't have to shed their blood and sacrifice lives defending against russian aggression. we have already made significant progress. we have shown that our courage and partnership are stronger than any russian hos tulty. and we have freed 50% of the territories russia occupied after february 21st.tility. and we have freed 50% of the territories russia occupied after february 21st. ukraine's 5% economic growth this year proves our effective partnership. and we have shown no russian missiles can over to the powerful american sls. thank you very much. even during war, we are reforming our country as our institutions. today president biden and i discussed how to increase our strengths for next year. air defense and destroying logistics on ukraine's land. thank you very much for your supporting us. and in these areas like our victory in the black sea, we aim to win the air battle crashing russian air dominance. this will intensify our ground vabss in 2024 with our control of the skies. who controls the skies controls the war's duration. and today would like to thank the defense package with our defenders very much. second, yesterday i met with american defense company leaders. they advised us on how to make our defense industries more effective. thank you, mr. president for this importantive we started with you. together ukraine and americacan strengthen democracy's arsenal. this is why value for other free nations and the u.s. as it involves your companies, technologies and advancement and job creation. it is important to know that two-thirds of american support for ukraine remains in the united states so ukraine has fulfilled other accommodations of the european commission regarding the preparation for decision to start negotiations on ukraine's extension to the eu. we constantly communicate with european leaders about our joint sanctions and political efforts to pressure russia. american leadership is crucial. it's keeping this unit together. today we discussed putin's further isolation and making him pay for his aggression. it's very important by the end of this year, we can send a strong signal of our unity to the aggressor and the unity of ukraine, america, europe, the entire free world. everything we talked about today will help us in 2024. today's discussions in the white house and in congress, across both parties and both chambers, with a speaker were very productive. i thank you for the bipartisan support. as we approach christmas on behalf of all of ukraine families, sprauted by war and all on the front, ukraine's greatest wish is to near this war's end. no one but putin want thes a prolonged war. we dream of a christmas in peacetime and we are walking to our success into this. and we are heading there together with you and thanks to your support. thank you very much. thank you, americans. >> thank you. we're going to alternate asking questions. we're going to ask two questions. i will ask the first question. i will reognize the first question asker. danny. >> thank you, mr. president. president biden, ukraine's counteroffensive has stalled in recent months. congress is blocking aid and vladimir putin appears ready to just wait things out. so what is the strategy for the u.s. in ukraine next year to try to turn this around? and if that fails, at what point do you say to ukraine, as a friend that is perhaps time to start looking at peace talks. and for president zelenskyy, welcome back to washington. can ask did you hear what you wanted to hear from congress and from president biden? and or are you more worried than when you got here? thank you very much. >> let me answer the question first. let's put this in perspective. remember how far ukraine has come. russia has failed thus far in trying to erase ukraine from the the map, and ukraine is taken back more than 50% of its territory seized since february of '22. and has pushed back the russian navy so ukraine can export through the black sea. and thanks to the incredible courage of the ukrainian people and the support from our congress, not just american support. there are more than 50 countries helping ukraine with military assistance. our allies and partners have put up $100 billion. and more than 90% is being spent to provide weapons for ukraine and replenish our stockpiles and build our industrial base. we need to ensure putin continues to fail in ukraine and ukraine to succeed in the best way for that to do that is to pass the supplemental. >> i'm going to answer in ukrainian. >> translator: thank you. i would like to add to the words of mr. president biden, about successes. i think that they were quite serious, they were serious steps forward. we gained victory on the sea. we destroyed ships of the russian federation. we throw the renants their fleet to waters. yet they have something in the black sea in the vicinity of our occupied crimea, but we're going to present this activity to destroy 20,000 of wagner mers anywheres. they were massing everywhere on african continent, in syria, in ukraine, there were a lot of mass and nuclear lus of these organizations is not existing anymore. yes, we had a lot of problems, but nonetheless, we are able to do this. russia, we are not able to seize any part of our territory at which i'm not talking about large cities. and we are going to proceed with this. it goes without saying that we have objectively have a clear ambulance, but if it you allow me, i'm not able to tell you on the details of the operations. if i heard what i want, i heard what wanted to. i feel the support for president biden, administration from we have been talking with the speaker. we know that we have to separate world and particular result. we will continue on particular result. thank you. >> could you please clarify your strategy of your administration? is it about helping to defend itself or to win the war because it's obviously such a difference? >> so your question is not only about our wars. the question is about for what we are ready and for what we are not. how ukraine is able to give up its territories, that's insane. we have our people and our families there. we help children there. that's part of ukrainian society. we are talking about human being. they are being on the tortures. they are being raped and killed. and those are to gear up our territories. it's to gear up our people. it's not a matter of territory. it's a matter of life and families of children. of their histories. i don't know whose idea it is. but i have a question if they are ready to give up their children to terrorists. i think no. >> we. to see ukraine win the war. it's a sovereign independent nation. and they can afford to depend itself today. that's our objective. >> trevor from reuters. >> thank you, sir. first, a question for both of you. given the republican skepticism of the ukraine effort. do you worry a is second term for president trump would be the end of an independent ukraine? that's for both of you. and for you, president biden. just an update, if you could, on the situation in gaza on the reports that israel has begun flooding hamas tunnels and just the offensive in southern gaza. how long do you think that operation should last? thank you. >> first of all, with regard to political support for ukraine. there's a strong bipartisan political support for ukraine. small number of republicans who don't want to support ukraine, but they don't speak for the majority. we're in negotiations to get funding we need, not to make promises, but hopeful we can get there. the world is watching what we do. it would hurt our national security. you want me to answer the other question as well? >> the question was just if you could talk a little bit about the gaza operation. israel, flooding hamas tunnels and if you have had conversations about benjamin netanyahu about how long that operation should last. >> i have had conversations with benjamin netanyahu. and you want to make sure we don't forget what we're doing here. we have to support israel because they are an independent nation. the brutality, the unhumesty, the way in which hamas treated the israelis. raping and burning and beheading, it's just beyond comparison. we have head it clear to the israelis and they are aware that the safety of innocent palestinians is still of great concern. so the action they are taking must be consistent with attempting to do everything possible to prevent innocent palestinian civilians from being hurt, murdered, killed, lost, et cetera. itten doesn't lessen the responsibility going after hamas to innocent palestinians and hamas. we have responsibility to protect citizens to ensure they have access to humanitarian assistance. that's why i worked so hard with our arab friends as well as the israelis to get humanitarian assistance into israel, getting up to 140 trucks loaded with gear, loaded with food, loaded with everything that is needed when the palestinians, including fuel. with regard to the flooding of the tunnels, there is assertions being made that they are quite sure there are no hostages in the tunnels. i don't know that for a fact. i do know every civilian death is a tragedy. that's why i was talking about today. >> translator: addressing your question very quickly. i have been talking a lot with representatives of both parties. both democrats and republicans proved their support. and we will see, but before this, they have always been trusting in the strategic partner, the united states, and we will consider to continue in this way. >> next summer the united states will host a nato summit in washington, d.c., which raises a lot of hope, especially for ukraine. president zelenskyy, what does the ukrainian side expect from this summit? and do you hope to have a direct invitation during the alliance. and president biden under what conditions is the united states ready to support the initiative of inviting ukraine to the member of nato? >> i will answer quickly. we are not allies to now. we are allies, but we are not members of nato. so that's why i think i will pass this question to our friend biden. now it's even larger. putin wanted nato when i met with him geneva. he's gotten from finland instead. nato will be in ukraine's future, no question about that. but as we said, ukraine will become the member of nato when all alies agree and conditions are met. right now, we have to make sure that they win the war. we launched the joint declaration of support alongside volodymyr zelenskyy outlining a long-term commitment to supporting ukraine's defense needs. we also hosted a defense industry conference last week here in d.c. to get that critical work done. it's a step at a time. thank you all very much. >> this concludes the conference. thanks, everybody. >> the conclusion of the press conference between president biden and president zelenskyy of ukraine. a number of things were said, including when somebody asked whether or not he was willing to cede territory for peace. he said that's insane. he was asked about joining nato. president biden said ukraine is in the future when all allies agree and all conditions are met. watching along with us is ambassador mcfal claire mccaskill and tara palmary. claire, let me start with you. this trip, unlike all the other discussions that have been had with president zelenskyy was very specifically about getting support from the united states in a moment where that support is stuck in the republican house of representatives because of a dispute about border funding. do you think that president zelenskyy is farther ahead than when he first here a couple days ago. >> it's very hard to say. part of the problem here is everything is turned top sit turvey when it comes to the republican party. and their view on whether or not putin is a bad guy. you have a significant part of republicans in congress who are in the trump camp that thinks putin is just fine. there's no problem with putin. it's really concerning to me about what's happened recently is you have seen mitch mcconnell whose support has been unwavering. you have seen him wobble a little bit over this idea that we're going to somehow pair domestic policy with support for ukraine. trying to hold back russian aggression. and that is not the house. that's mitch mcconnell, who has been one of ukraine's strongest supporters in the republican party. so i think we'll see. i worry that we have started down a path where checking putin is now dependent on whether or not republicans get what they want when it comes to domestic policy. >> ambassador, their comments, it was not a we have solved this problem or closer to solving this problem. it was i heard what members of congress had to say. i heard what republicans had to say. he said i told everybody what i wanted to tell them. but whether or not other people do what we need to do to get results is yet to be seen. he's not leaving that room in the white house thinking he sealed a deal. >> there was no indication he thinks he sealed the deal. i think he understands the challenge. know he doesn't understand it analytically. he doesn't understand why soldiers in ukraine have to die because we haven't figured out what our policy for immigration reform is. he hasn't figured out why ukrainian civilians are going to die if we don't send them the interceptors to protect them. frankly, it makes no sense to me. it's especially unnerving because the majority of senators and even the majority in the house of representatives, the last time they voted, 300-100, support aid to ukraine. so they are deliberately not doing something that they themselves think is in the interest. >> we have talked many times about what our allies in the rest of the world must think of what's going on here. we don't have to speculate because you're one of those people. you have the ear of people throughout europe and your home country. what does all of this mean? what does this delay in funding ukraine, possible critical delay, mean to our allies across the world? >> i think that mike nailed it in the case of kain ukraine. those of us who are in nato and have been staunch allies of the united states must from now on take into consideration that any serious security policy issue can be brought or taken hostage for a domestic issue, whatever it maybe. we saw the willingness of people like senator tuberville to take the u.s. military hostage. that was already a bad sign. when it comes to the security of the world, we have our doubts as to how liable the united states is going to be as an ally and so now we thought it's a common battle. what will happen out of this is the blood of ukrainians will be upon people for whom domestic policy is more important and clearly the message is we don't really care. sorry, too bad. that is a message all of us have to take. >> is there any cost to republicans on this one? this is just weird that it's republican who is are stalling military aid against russia. traditional adversary that they are staunchly against. it doesn't seem to move a lot of republicans in congress. >> no, because the party has changed so much. it's become such an isolationist party. it's maga. if you're watching tucker carlson, even fox news, either saying this is a war that's not worth engaging in anymore. there was enthusiasm in the beginning, but they are over it. right now, they have moved on to israel and see this as a way to get what they want, which is border security. jd vance is saying let's ignore ukraine altogether. but i think the constituents may realize that actually in their home states they are building a lot of the defense missiles that they are sending over to ukraine. you might start hearing some complaints in south carolina. you might hear that the production and defense industry is suffering because of it, but from ab ideological level, no, president trump hasn't made it his forefront part of his policy. so therefore, it is not at the forefront of the republican party. >> stay with me. we're going to say good-bye to the ambassador. thank you for spending time with us. when we return, day two of rudy giuliani's defamation trial. we heard testimony from one of the election workers that he's liable for defaming. what happened in an emotional day in court. don't go anywhere. court don't go anywhere. that old pho♪ ♪ for a free 5g phone, plus netflix and max ♪ (wife) you really just should have done that. 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(avo) this holiday turn any samsung phone, in any condition, into a galaxy s23+ on us. and now add netflix and max to your plan for just $10 a month. save big this holiday. only on verizon. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ a lot of threats, wishing death upon me. i will be in jail with my mother and saying things like be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> were a lot of these threats and vile comments racist in nature? >> a lot of them were racist. a lot of them were just hateful. >> perhaps you like us, became acquainted with the former georgia poll worker in the course of the january 6th select committee hearings. the shear emotional weight of her staggering tragic testimony mesmerized the viewing public laying bear the evil done to innocent hard working people in the name of the big lie. today it was a jury's turn to hear how she feared for her life in december 2020. she was on the witness stand in a civil defamation trial against rudy giuliani, one that will determine just how much the former new york city mayor will have to pay them. up to $43 million in compensatory damages. it was a legal nightmare from the word go this morning for rudy giuliani, whose lawyers had to explain to the judge why their client told reporters yesterday that he told the truth about the election workers despite the fact he'd already preej yurlly admitted to making false statements as part of a court filing in july. from there, moss' testimony just updated and expanded upon what she told the committee, one of the most harrowing portions of her appearance is how she described the effect that giulia'sies had on her son, who was 14 at the time of the election. from our colleagues in the urtroom today, quote, because he used moss' old phone, he constaly received hate messages and voice mails meant for her. langford played some of the messages for the jury. moss said her son failed every class in the ninth grade because of the situation. quote, he deserve that. i had to tell him racism is real and it was just -- i can't even describe it. i felt like the worst mom ever to allow him to have to hear this. have to experience this, day after day after day. another innocent life caught up in a lie about nonexistent fraud in the 2020 election. joining us now is justice reporter ryan riley at the courthouse for us. former prosecutor at the fulton county district attorney's office and msnbc legal analyst melissa redman. claire mccaskill rejoins us. welcome to all of you. what happened today in court? >> reporter: it was really dramatic testimony as you walk through there from this election worker talking about the devastating impact that these lies from rudy giuliani really had on her life. is and just set where this happened. this was in early december of 2020. so at that point rudy giuliani was sort of dismissed by a lot of the mainstream media. everyone treated those false claims as they were because it was obvious they were throwing anything out there. this was about a month after think had the infamous press conference at four seasons total landscaping. this is when the elite strike force team was also offer aing testimony. today they had testimony that they played from jenna ellis when she took the fifth several times. but this came in in december when rudy giuliani was being pair did on "snl" because of the ridiculous claim he was making about the election. but there were real world consequences for this and miss moss talked about how this did take over her life. she talked about shutting down her facebook messaging. even after she moved because of the threat she was receiving, they found her new address and sent her clippings of her own face in them. so these vague message as all sort of with this layer of racism all around them. she talked about how she thinks rudy compared them to bank robbers and drug dealers becauses when he looks at black people, he thinks of drug dealers and bank robbers. so she really made a compelling case for the jury here. this case probably could end up with rudy testifying maybe tomorrow or thursday and that will be ab interesting event because he's had had trouble holding his tongue even today. he may have brought up new theories how the connections that the lawyers were representing shea moss have and what they mean and bringing up hunter biden as he likes to do. think it will be quite a spectacle as we go on. >> let's talk about the legal situation here. that's already established. that it should have and generally has made that the punishment needs to fit the crime. but they get a little distracted. carries on about other things. talk to me about the legal situation and how you see it unfoilding. >> we see a difficult client. in court we have his attorney saying, yes, we admit these statements were false. we're not going to waste your time contesting issues that don't need to be contested. we want to talk about what's fair and reasonable in terms of damages. they want to argue that a lot of these threats or all of these threats were not done by giuliani. he had no reason or no way to cause others to make these threats. those people who made the threats that caused the damage, not his statements. you have his client saying everything i said was true. i didn't lie about anything. and the judge has determined that i did make these false statements about these women and causes dj. so you have the attorney trying to kind of rangel in his client and we'll see how far he's able to get with that. especially in f that client is asked to testify. >> that's going to be something to watch. . it you imagine if your client was a lawyer themselves? claire mccaskill, there's nothing victimless about an attempt to overturn an election and the various indictments indicate that. there's real harm to society and democracy. but the one thing that this case does is really puts human faces on some of this stuff. it's not just that maybe my vote was counted or not counted, which is really imperative to democracy. it's that the people who uphold our democracy, poll workers like that are attacked and frightened and harassed. i think that sort of illustrates something for us. >> yeah, i think people forget that one of the reasons elections have been historically secure in the united states is because the authority for those are locally based. and it is people like ruby freeman and shea moss and tens of thousands of others who work for public entities and many who volunteer, who control what happens on a local level and ultimately sometimes a secretary of state. so it's very hard for anybody to get into the system and fool around because of this control. now the irony is rudy giuliani knows all that. now he's got dominion, he's got ruby and shea moss, he has a sexual assault charge, and he's hawking sandals and can no longer practice law and instead of being respectful of the damage he's done, he goes out on the steps of the courthouse and does it again. i can't imagine this jury is going to put up with that. i can't imagine the he's going to testify in any way that would be sympathetic to them. >> you're a big national reporter, but some people remember when you were a reporter in this city. the rudy giuliani, who this city knew, he goes to palm beach now and those trump act lites are all around. he's signing autographs and taking pictures with them. what do you make of all of the discussion about whether rudy giuliani is unhinged or he -- i don't know what he's trying to do. i can't get a handle on what success looks like for him right now. >> don't think he has a lot of options right now. he's been disbarred in various states. he has various indictments involved in multiple legal issues related to trump and his efforts to try to overturn the 2020 elections. he's really at the mercy of trump right now. his legal bills are at the mercy of trump now. they are asking for $43 million. who is paying for his lawyers? he's holding events for rudy giuliani at his golf course trying to raise money to keep this guy. he's someone who clearly is desperate to stay in the fold. and in trump world, it's all about loyalty. and so that's why this has become a political trial. he's going to be talked about on shows. so whether his lawyer says something different, he has to stand on the steps and say he didn't mean that. this is when i meant. i'm with trump. the next campaign is an extension of the 2022 dispute that the election was stolen. so he can't say it wasn't. rudy giuliani was a legend here in new york at one time. and now he's a guy in palm beach who doesn't have a law practice and basically needs a pardon from a guy who might be the future president. >> it's a good way to put it. one of the things that's interesting about the georgia racketeering case is that the prosecutors there have said they are not all that interested in culting a deal with rudy giuliani or mark meadows. these are the guys at the top of the indictment the case becaus rudy giuliani, second only to donald trump in the number of charges he faces in various cases. why not? >> well typically, those at the top are the most culpable. so they really don't have a lot to give. so if you're going to group those together, donald trump, mark meadows, rudy giuliani, all they could give you is, they really can't give you anything more than those at the bottom of the indictment that could, you know -- they can't give you evidence or testimony against themselves. right? so you want them, to get to those three or four at the top. so unless they're willing to plea to the indictment, there's not a lot you can offer them to induce them to enter a guilty plea. >> how does this trial even though it's done, meaning the culpability part, how does it affect, because rudy giuliani and others are charged with the particular activity as it relates to the mother and daughter in this case. tell me how one plays against the other because he's been found responsible for some things having to do with harassing these two women who are poll workers. there's a trial that's going to include evidence about this. >> he has been found liable in the civil setting and he was very specific in the filing where he admits to defamation and very specific in that for the purposes of this only, this case were not contesting the factual allegations by the plaintiffs. so i don't think that's going to have a whole lot to do with the criminal case. the state is still going to have to prove all of these facts and charges beyond a reasonable doubt so we will have shaye moss and ruby freeman having to endure all this again. the damages of the rudy giuliani statement in the criminal case. they will have to testify again. >> we thank you for your analysis. claire mccaskill, thank you both for joining us. just ahead, an update on the trump orb civil fraud trial today. that's after a short break. a sk febreze! hi. i keep my home fresh with febreze fade defy plug. and i use this. febreze has a microchip to digitally control how much scent is released so it doesn't fade. ooh. does mine have a microchip? 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