right now, and i'm glad it's you, are a, because i've modeled way way through two hours of legal staff. it's in your hands no, friend. >> you're very kind. i wouldn't go that fire, but -- i leave all, she great to see. welcome to the beat, everyone, i'm ari melber, and as we mentioned, there's a lot going on, even as we get towards the holidays, december vibes. but jack smith, making a big move today, going straight to the supreme court. that is unusual, and it tells us something about the hand he thinks he's holding. we've seen delays from the trump folks on this coup trial and they have every right to file appeals, and sometimes appeals have the consequence of delays. what's new here, ali velshi militant shunning that this is something everyone's trying to make sense of tonight, it's jack smith is moving first. he's basically calling for whatever delay or bluff the trump folks have been pushing out to be over. asking the supreme court to intervene. it's a move of confidence, doesn't mean he scan a win, but we'll get into that tonight a little later in the program. also, we'll talk about accountability. it is sometimes a long time coming in the system, but the indicted trump lawyer, rudy giuliani, in court on a different case today, facing potentially tens of millions of dollars of sanction over his defamation of two georgia election workers. so, we're gonna get to all that. but we begin with what many say is the full crisis for u.s. democracy facing us now, and whether we deal with it or not. the washington republican who so many people say did as much as anyone to admit all the scandals and the coup, continued to enable trump. kevin mccarthy, now speaking out. in ways that hold some peril for republicans next year. now, in a few moments, we're actually gonna walk through some vintage early mccarthy video that's pretty revealing. but first, we're gonna show you why he's in the news tonight. obviously, it's been a bruising year. after everything he had to do just to get the gavel, he then was ousted in one of the shortest speakership's in american history. it was humiliating. he was defenestrated by his big public enemies, including people who are not very popular in congress, like matt gaetz. and yet, after all that, the context for mccarthy here is what we all know trump claimed publicly that he will be seeking retribution a second term. donald trump is that that. donald trump may sometimes lie, he may sometimes obfuscate, but he's actually been quite a rap -- and yet mccarthy, who has literally run out of congress are his back and forth with trump, tried to suck up enough to hold his job and couldn't, now, mccarthy insists all that will change. >> what president trump needs to do in this campaign, it needs to be about rebuilding. restoring. renewing america. it can't be about revenge. >> he's talking about retribution. day in, day out. >> he needs to stop that. he needs to stop that. >> you think he's going to listen to you saying, stop that, stop that? he hasn't listened to anybody before. >> that's not true. he will adapt when he gets all the facts. >> he will adapt. adapt being another word for change, a change not being something that donald trump has done on this issue. donald trump is, of course, holding fast and strong on the election lies that fed the insurrection, that led to the defamation that relates to both giuliani in court today -- we have more on that later, and fox settling for over half a billion dollars. there's no sign of adapt. and mccarthy, of course, knows that. but mccarthy now run out of congress by maga hard-liners is trying to still somehow, and his new post congress iteration, sit around, sacking up to maga hard-liners. which he doesn't have to do. he could just be an independent citizen and kind of move past all of this. but he thinks this is what he has to do to help himself. >> i believe donald trump will win. i believe that republicans will gain more seats in the house, and that republicans will win the senate. >> can you count on your support? >> yes. >> that's an endorsement. >> i will support the president. i will support president trump. >> would you be willing to serve in the trump cabinet? >> in the right position. look, if i'm the best person for the job, yes. >> in the right position. you know, there's an almost silly, maybe practiced nonchalance that he's going for here. when we all know, if we pay any attention, that kevin mccarthy was privately horrified by the coup, and then publicly blasted it. how can you say that a coup was the wrong thing to do, was bad for america, must be stopped, that trump's responsible for it, and then say, yeah, but if there's another term, i'll just join the post coup term. that's what mccarthy says he's down for. trump's allies are, of course, pushing this loyalty pledge in a pan and power grab to push the limits of the federal government if they get power, mccarthy's own political history is back in the news tonight, because we want to look at the actual facts and context of this. as i mentioned, and, again we show the evidence, you make up your own mind. but we do know, as a matter of public fact, that right after january 6th, mccarthy was clear about trump, and only later, under political pressure, reversed himself. >> the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should've immediately denounced the mob when he saw wh was unfolding. >> i don't see how he could be found criminally responsible. what criminal activity did he do? he told people to be peaceful. >> which is a? was he responsible for what happened? what did he tell people to be peaceful? mccarthy, when he realized that trump was not nnget in the trouble that he had thought, at least on the right, rushed down in this infamous visit to mar-a-lago. part of a long, humiliating year that still resulted in his maga defenestration. he was asked about all this in the interview. >> he went to visit trump at mar-a-lago. you threw him a lifeline. he might have been finished if he didn't go. would you do it again? >> well, that's your opinion. >> okay. that's your opinion. we also spoke to someone who is not just well-known for leading the jan sixth committee, and her recent book tour, which you probably seen in the media, but let's remember, liz cheney was in the private meetings with mccarthy. she was part of leadership. she was on the private calls, some of which later leaked. she was part of this three or four people who actually ran in the republican party, except unless they decided to let donald trump, the ex president and triple indictee, run it. so, listen to what she said about this man she served with. >> kevin mccarthy is, throughout this period, he had multiple opportunities to be doing the right thing, and each time, he did the wrong thing. and it isn't just that it is now costume's career, but it's that it cost the nation greatly. that the leader of the republicans in the house didn't lead. -- donald trump's donors, and that meant he had to help donald trump wipe away the stain of what he's done to our country. >> that is an insider, whatever you think of her, political history, or the evolution she's made, she is publicly taking an account here. she wrote it down, he served on the chances committee, and she told us in the interview about the donors and the other dirty political process here. that if she -- he really had to shore that up, but remember, he didn't say speaker. it didn't work. kevin mccarthy is in the news night because he's speaking out -- getting a preview of what happens to some of the most powerful republicans. he was in the line of succession. he was, at one point, the most senior republican in office in washington just a few months ago. what happens when you take it all away from him? well, mccarthy's case, and again, we're gonna discuss this with experts, part of this was his personality, but the humiliation he enjoyed did not make him say, to heck with the all. it made him, if anything, more eager to try to win these people back over who hate him. never forget what he went through. >> well, it's groundhog day. again. >> the root issue is this. they do not trust kevin mccarthy. >> the house is not an order. >> maybe the right person for the job of speaker of the house is in someone who has sold shares of themself for more than a decade to get it. >> wow, this is a bit of a heated conversation. >> this is an incredible moment. mccarthy is now directly engaging matt gaetz. >> the only time that we lost the conservative agenda was when kevin mccarthy went behind the republican conference. >> the office of speaker of the house of the united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. >> vacant. if past is prologue, than kevin mccarthy's very recent past shows you both where the republican party is headed, and, many people think, potentially into a wall if it has no adjustment process for what remains a very unpopular and indicted former president. but how did we get here? well, mccarthy used to sound much more like a standard issue republican. the 2000 republican national convention, bush versus gore, he was actually chair of the young republicans national federation. >> welcome, kevin mccarthy. >> ladies and gentlemen, i have an important announcement. al gore did not invent the internet. but the young republicans and why roc.com revolutionized it. we believe in freedom. we believe an opportunity. we believe in the free market. we believe in taking responsibility for our own future. we believe individuals can soar higher when they are unbound by the shackles of oppressive big government. abraham lincoln taught us the value of unity. theodore roosevelt taught us to dare greatly. we take the great lessons of the past and apply them to a changing future. >> that was a quarter century ago, give or take. 23 years. i just want to sit with you for a minute as we look at the evidence of how we got here in where we're going. because that kevin mccarthy, at that point in time, did not have, publicly, the hallmarks of someone who would give into authoritarian dictators. and, if you could do a time travel and put him on truth serum, i'm not sure that young person would admit that he would be joining coups. literally coups that he condemned, and a munch later, eating his words. he said freedom, opposing oppressive government. and notice, the republican presidents he shouted out -- lincoln, teddy roosevelt. at that time, and that republican party, that was a nod to a more moderate wing, and the traditions of some of the, to this day, more historically celebrated republicans. it wasn't nixon. it wasn't even reagan, whose so often quoted. and so, what we see in the long, slow, humiliating patchwork rise and very quick fall, and as i deliberately said, defenestration of this sort of political tail, it's both a lesson for the perils of authoritarian and right-wing threats and any country, america not immune, but also, at the political level, because we are dealing with politics and elections, how even doing that doesn't save your seat. it didn't save his speakership. and does that mean that other republicans can either learn this lesson as they watch this? or learn the wrong lessons and go into an election next year where there are so far right and so authoritarian, so alienating, that is with the red fizzle in the last midterms, which mccarthy oversaw, and some other setbacks, they're on a collision course with an electorate that, as best as we can tell, does not welcome the open, blatant, and sordid confession of more quds to come. i say that all with evidence. i don't mean it is rhetoric. what are the lessons here but for us as a country and the potential elections were going into? that's an important conversation we want to have a two very special guests who know a lot about this. we're together again in just 60 seconds. gain in just 6 seconds. seconds. our goal here is to put the who are all younger than you. i had to get help somewhere along the line to stay competitive. i discovered prevagen. i started taking it and after a period of time, my memory improved. it was a game-changer for me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. people before politics. much like what we have seen. we want to find solutions. we want to move america in the right direction. we want to tell you first and foremost what has gone on here for the last hundred days. give us a report card. tell us where we're going. >> and we're back with former republican congressman -- and longtime washington observer margaret carlson. welcome to both of you. carlos, i mentioned what we've learned. you've been in this caucus in recent times. you know something about it. what do you see as the lessons in the rise and fall of kevin mccarthy? >> well, ari, number one, this is yet another example of how so many republicans are driven and motivated by fear of donald trump. they will not tell us publicly what they say about donald trump privately, because they're afraid of him. they want to hold on to power and they view getting sideways with donald trump as a risk to their positions of power. now, you have clearly illustrated that what did that get kevin mccarthy? what did donald trump to for him? when trump -- [inaudible] started attacking him? absolutely nothing. because donald trump is all about himself. so the lesson here should be pretty clear. the republican party should be about ideas, about governing principles. not about absolute loyalty to one man, a man who happens to like compulsively, and who is threatening to, yet again, diminish and disregard american institutions. >> margaret, same question. >> watching that video, ari, which i hadn't seen all those clips, i was struck by -- whatever happened to going home and spending more time with your family? he was mixing to emotions. grief, over being booted out, and denial of the reality that, you know, he may love trump all he wants, but trump is never gonna love him enough to get him a cabinet position, unless he scraping bottom and no one else will. the only moment i saw a flicker of life in kevin mccarthy -- saying, well, if he offered me the right position -- he still wants it so badly. and he'll do anything. because remember, on the day of the coup, when members were running for their lives, he came back, and his caucus, 147 of them, voted to stop the count of the vote so they could get some big electors in there. >> margaret, let me ask you, is that a kevin mccarthy thing? or just a current republican party thing? >> well, you know, there are many more enablers than there are liz cheney's. i mean, there are about three or four liz cheney's if you really want to count those who stick their heads up and put their careers on the line. but it's kind of shocking how many there are. because at certain times, in between the insurrection and when kevin went to mar-a-lago, there was a moment when republicans could've united. and they could've pushed back trump. and they've never taken the opportunity. not when the impeachment came up, not in any other time, and not now. they could probably win the election with nikki haley. it's frightening to think they might win it with donald trump. because his voters are so, you know, are so avid. but the idea of somebody standing up to trump now, isn't it a foreign idea that somebody is? like, you hear bill barr now murmuring things, but you don't hear anybody saying, i'm gonna -- that guy should not be on the ticket and i'm going to get a coalition together to get him off. just yesterday, i think it was, senator john bourassa, who's a conservative republican, who's not the weakest of them -- he endorsed kari lake in arizona. an election doesn't hire. and there are almost 100 election deniers, some of them are running for secretary of state, who may well win their elections, because nobody is taken the leadership to do anything about it. >> yeah. and karla's, having served in congress, the founders had this idea that, yeah, you have one government. all these courts that we report off our page out of the same federal treasury as the other officials in the other branches. and yet, the court system, with its problems, has held up pretty strong. the congress as a check on the executive, much less so. the founders, of course, burnish lee envisioned that those would be three fully separate branches. we know trump doesn't see it that way. i want to play a little just brief -- speaker of the house, here in the line of succession, you have all the supposed power, and this is how that then president trump, 2017, talked about him. >> kevin mccarthy, whereas kevin? there is my kevin. it follow me into the heat of battle, right kevin? >> that's my kevin. and that's how you viewed it. and you both have discussed that was a one-way relationship. but deeper than that, careless, i'm curious what you think about a situation where no one in the republican party takes seriously the idea that you're really elected, whether it's to a house seat or by your colleagues in the speakership, and you represent an independent branch. period. >> well, that certainly has been a problem for house republicans since donald trump came to office. i remember in 2017, house republicans wanted to reform the rules of the house, and then speaker ryan came in and -- [inaudible] therefore, we can do it. so this is not new. this started from day one. but i will say, yeah, of course there's a liz cheney model, which is admirable, it is a kevin mccarthy mondale, but somewhere in between, ari, is that mitch mcconnell our model, and i think one could make an argument that mitch mcconnell, even if we disagree with some of the positions he's taken, i, mean he hasn't spoken to donald trump in years now. and he certainly doesn't coordinate or check with donald trump when he's gonna make a decision and leading senate republicans. that's the other thing about this whole mccarthy dynamic and what we've seen in the house. it doesn't have to be that way. the someone else across the hallway who's shown that you can actually stand up to trump, at least sometimes, and stand up for our democracy and stay in power. >> yeah, i think -- >> he's -- >> a running overtime, margaret, i was gonna rebut it slightly, but i see my time to you, but it's only 30 seconds. >> now, go ahead, i. >> now, you, i mean. it >>, okay. you know, when mcconnell originally said it was morally irresponsible, what trump did, and then, when he pushed off impeachment, and then when impeachment came up over the insurrection, he did not, with his members, to do it. and by the way, they wouldn't be in the trouble they're in right now, because he wouldn't be able to run for president. mcconnell could've brought that about. he did not do it. >> yeah. i think it's a complex picture, because margaret is saying some of what i was thinking, i don't know how far mcconnell went. but to carlos's point, i think it is fair that he had leased as stake down different ground then the complete, total surrenders of kevin mccarthy. and i will tell you, carlos, if you have time for a terrible congressional jack, we have to keep the clock here. i don't have any magic minutes. so i have to cut it off there. that's a speaker joke. i'm sorry to everyone. carlos, margaret, nice to see you both, happy holidays as we get ready for the holidays. coming, i will tell folks we are gonna look at that florida book banned in the arguments they're making. also, rudy giuliani facing serious accountability. what's up next is a story that velshi and i were discussing in the handoff. -- offense and basically saying, you're not gonna delay him. he's going to the supreme court before trump. how does not work? we have neal katyal and joyce vance to explain. vance to explain. ♪(uplifting music)♪ along with significantly clearer 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most cases, but this is a special one, blah blah blah. tonight is not that kind of story. tonight is of a story. the special counsel and a confident move is doing something unusual but perfectly allowed. directly trying to fast-track trump's trial. jack smith today asking the supreme court to immediately just weigh in and decide whether jack smith's right in the steps he's taken thus far, where he won a ruling -- trump as a former president is not immune from potentially going on trial, that he should go through the normal course and not have the whole thing tossed. so jacks mitt the saying, we won, we don't want to wait for the usual longer delays of an appeals process. get the supreme court in. the court agreeing to consider the issue, setting a deadline for trump to respond by december 20th. meaning, on the timeline, jack smith is getting his way. whether he'll get the result he wants is an open question. i'm gonna put that daniel enjoys in a moment. smith says this case prevents -- nixon watergate president, where the court did also move things along. swiftly, compelling then president nixon to hand over the secret audiotapes. smith, backed by the doj here, is arguing that this case has similarly consequential, i should say consequential issues of presidential privilege. the move comes after many filings over the whole course of this, including this weekend, dealing with donald trump's allowed but dilatory tax checks. -- that's a fancy word for delay. -- frivolous cases, this is not frivolous. they have every right to repeal these issues. and if that takes extra time, so be it. what smith is saying is, yes you have the right, but i'm getting the court to corner you on that. for example, the 45-page rebuke i mentioned earlier in trump's argument that foreign governments interfere with election machines -- trying to launder it for a courtroom audience. it's something we've heard before. >> possible connection to the venezuelan government poses a potential national security concern. >> it's a highly inaccurate machine. >> -- a biden vote counts as one point 25 and a trump vote counts is point 75. >> amidst some of these recent filings, and were just showing you highlights, we've also learned about what the doj in jab smith have been investigating, in interviewing -- donald trump's on administration, asking if they were aware of evidence of this obviously bananas claim. all of them trump appointees, trump officials, said no. now jack smith and trump are awaiting what will now be not only the most consequential ruling of this case, but really a ruling over whether this case will proceed. to be clear, we could get a ruling that says jack smith was right, he won in the lower courts, trump is not immune, and then we got to the my child we've all been hearing about. it could also be possible this court could intervene in other ways, or do something that delays or -- the trial. and if the trial is significantly delayed past the election, well, becomes a whole different matter. as promised, we bring in really one of the most perfect guests you could have tonight, neal katyal, who is acting solicitor general. meaning he was the obama administration's pick to argue exactly these kinds of complex supreme court appeals, and another perfect guest, u.s. attorney joyce vance is oversaw exactly these kinds of criminal cases. two different expertise is, both relevant. we might have to flip a coin. i'm gonna go to you, neil. i took pains to say that this defendant, like many, has the right to exhaust appeals. not many appeals in a criminal case will be before the case. but there are some. and that can take time. one, what do you think of what jack smith is doing here? and to, do you have any view on the merits of the case? >> yeah, so donald trump doesn't just have the ability to exhaust appeals. he has to be ability to exhaust all of this. that certainly what's happened. his strategy for so many months has been delay, delay, delay. and ari, today, jack smith basically pulled into no reverse card on donald trump, saying, i'm tired of games, here's what i'm gonna do. there's a rule in the supreme court rules called -- which allows you to skip the court of appeals, an extraordinarily important cases, and go straight to the supreme court. now, sometimes in the justice, you're really reluctant to do this, because it looks like gamesmanship, you're trying to go to a more favorable for him. here, the case was gonna go to the washington, d.c. u.s. court of appeals there, which is overwhelmingly democratic appointees. trump has been attacking that court left and right. so there's no argument here that jack smith is trying to game anything by going to the supreme court. all he's trying to do is get the show on the road. now, the court has the ability and just decided an hour ago to have expedited consideration over whether to hear this case with donald trump's -- being due on december 20th. this will allow, if the court decides to hear the case, the court to be heard and decided rather quickly, just as it was with richard nixon when the special counsel they're basically skip the court of appeals, went directly to the supreme court for a decision. smart move by smith, calling trump's bluff. >> and on that question, the, do you think it's a move of confidence or just of kind of necessity? >> absolute confidence. this is not a viable argument that donald trump has, which is that as president, he's immune from the criminal laws. you know, maybe that's the law from putin's russia, it's not the lawn america. i don't suspect that trump is gonna get many votes in the u.s. supreme court. so, you know, jack smith, i don't know what is mental status, but i think the mental state of every reasonable legal observer is incredibly confident in jack smith's case. >> joyce? >> yeah. i think neal is dead on the money. and to the point he's making about the timeline, if smith has to wait it out and let the d.c. circuit decide this case before it gets to the supreme court, it's possible that it couldn't be decided in this term. they're asking the supreme court directly, ensures that will get a decision by the time this time of court ends in late june or early july at the latest. that could delay the trial if the court held that till the very end. but if they grant his petition to expedite, it's possible the march trial could still happen, maybe with a short delay. the risk if he didn't do this was that the supreme court would not consider this case until the next time of court starts in the fall of 2024. so this is, i think, a very smart move. the point about the nixon cases this. the supreme court can move quickly when they want to. in that matter, the watergate prosecutors subpoenaed nixon's tapes in april. the judge decided they were entitled to them in may. they were in front of the supreme court in july, they argued the case, the court decided the matter in late july. so this is a court that can be nimble, and can move quickly when it decides the case is important. and if this case is not a case where the government is entitled to have -- before judgment in the court of appeals, then it's hard to imagine any case where it would be appropriate it's interesting. when i find more intellectually important parts of the job, i didn't know what either of you would say -- the fact that you're both really so strong on this is striking to me. second, neal, we happen to be three lawyers here, but we're an objective show. we don't try to advance a pro lawyer bias. and the criticism i will give many lawyers, the price to trump's, but they're not unique, it's delay tactics are used, and sometimes really stretch to the edge, to exhaust, as you said earlier, or maneuver through the court system rather than getting resolution. i can point to many examples when i think lawyers kind of do a disservice to that. he's a little sound we put together by trump's lawyers have done that. >> delay, delay, delay has always been donald trump's legal strategy. >> his best here, his best strategy is delay. >> do i think that they'll try to push it and push it? absolutely. >> so, neal, that's what so many lawyers do. that's the practice. and it can obscure the fact that jack smith already won this argument on the merits. most cricriminal courts, as mentioned, don't go to supreme court before trial. -- your anys, neal, that chutkan said the trump position, quote, would confront this lifelong get out of jail free pass, and she rejected it as saying the former president -- no special conditions on their criminal liability. so neal, your thoughts on about the frequency of the delay tactic and how that can also distract from the loss? the current state of the law, in this case, says he's not immune, period. >> yeah. judge chutkan is absolutely right on the merits. we don't have a jail -- get out of jail free card for anyone, whether you're the president or anyone else. mary, you're absolutely right. one thing that lawyers do is delay, delay, delay. jack smith did something really smart here we haven't talked about yet. he brought on to his team probably the very best lawyer skilled in how to combat these criminal defendants notions of delay. michael driven, who is my former deputies solicitor general, the deputy solicitor general to many people who had that office. he's argued more than 100 cases in the supreme court, and he's now join the legal team. there's not a finer lawyer in the country. he's respected by everyone at the supreme court. and, you know, i think he's going to, you know, pierce through these lay tactics like a hot knife in butter. >> really interesting. you'll catch all, joyce vance, thanks to both of you. you can go to msnbc.com slash opening arguments and see all of neal katyal's legal breakdowns, including, soon enough, this one. siena had, for the republicans are doubling down on the way they're trying to control what books children have access to. that's coming up. but first, giuliani, facing over $40 million in damages and a reckoning for lies. r lies r lies and calms the nerve down. and my patients say you know doc, it really works. 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and that's an understandable reaction. but it's also what they want you to think. these are efforts to exhaust not only the legal system, but let public pressure or accountability efforts sort of fade over time. but it doesn't always work. in fact, the giuliani efforts on that from our failing. because today, there's new steps towards election lie accountability. you might recall giuliani already found liable for defaming those two georgia poll workers. now, a jury was selected to decide the next step, which is the penalties giuliani has to pay. this is a man who did amass a fortune, by any measurement, along with fame, but is currently facing selling's homes, losing his career, losing, potentially, his freedom if he's convicted, and now, with these kind of fees and penalties hanging over him, potentially going completely bankrupt. the jurors here in the opening statements for trial -- that seeks to charge him for defamatory statements like this. >> earlier in the day of reuben freeman -- one other gentlemen quite obviously surreptitiously passing around usb ports, and vials of heroin or cocaine. it's obvious to anyone who's a criminal investigator or prosecutor they're engaged in surreptitious illegal activity. again, that day. and a week ago, this still walking around georgia lying. >> keep in mind how propaganda works. the confidence, the accusations of line, here, presented by someone who used to be charged by the government to deal with crime. there are people who would say, oh, former prosecutor, americas mayor rudy giuliani, -- he was lying. he defamed them. free speech means the government doesn't censor your speech. it does not mean you can say and do anything about anyone. and one of the most serious types of defamation, if you want to get into it, legally, it's called per se defamation, and when you knowingly falsely accuse somebody of a crime. because an airing of that accusation can make you on the higher-able, it can ruin your career, for some people it can ruin your life if everyone in town thinks you committed a terrible crime. here, he accused these poll workers of trafficking heroin, voter fraud, other things. it was all lives. all of it. you might remember this important information came up in the january 6th hearings. >> mr. giuliani accused you and your mother of passing some sort of usb drive to each other. what was your mom actually handing you on that video? >> a ginger mint. >> now. the penalties here could range in the tens of millions of dollars. and people who say,, will giuliani should also get in criminal trouble for this, he is, of course, facing a criminal trial in georgia. the same state where some of these accusations were leveled. and that process will play at. he's presumed innocent. but tens of millions of dollars for this defamation would send a message. it would deter this kind of coup-related defamation. and i mentioned why accusing people falsely of a crime is a big deal, because it can affect them. so it has very real world consequences. again, free speech means the government didn't prevent you from saying it. it doesn't mean you can legally say anything. and they testified. those giuliani lies amplified by others and maga -- what that did to them. >> i've lost my name, and i've lost my reputation. i've lost my sense of security. >> a lot of threats. wishing death upon me. a lot of them were racist, a lot of them were just hateful. >> i can't believe this person has caused this much damage to me and my family. there is nowhere i feel safe. nowhere. >> those committee hearings put a spotlight on that in 2021. we're here at the end of 2023. these cases do take time. we are not the only ones giuliani is facing. defamation cases related to -- voting machines. r.i.c.o. charges-limited in georgia. hunter biden is suing him as a separate sexual harassment case, and in the jackson with case, where the fast-tracking trump, he has the sort of damocles hadn't-ing over him as an unindicted coconspirator there, which means giuliani, the former federal prosecutor, could still potentially also face federal criminal charges. and all those criminal matters, he is presumed innocent. up next, we turn to the crackdown on your right to read. stay with us. read stay with us stay with us ♪ we're building a better postal service. for more on-time deliveries. and easier, affordable ways to ship. so you can deliver even more holiday joy. the united states postal service. delivering for america. ♪everything i do that's for my health is an accomplishment.♪ ♪concerns of getting screened faded away♪ ♪to my astonishment.♪ ♪my doc gave me a script i got it done without a delay.♪ ♪i screened with cologuard and did it my way.♪ cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪i did it my way!♪ just between us, you know what's better than mopping? 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(crying) and with ring cameras, capture all the holiday magic. with ring, you're always home for the holidays. shop limited-time holiday deals today at ring.com. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. . turning to what some consider politics, we have seen republican officials in many states under fire for attacks on free speech and equal rights. that includes ron desantis, who has picked these fights in the so-called culture wars leading to a battle over florida targeting a children's book about two penguins who raise a chick in a zoo. both penguins were male. it might be hard to see why a politician would double down on attacking adorable, cute penguins or parenting penguins. because desantis is clearly as tough on penguins as ehe was on mickey and minnie mouse, a tolerance about a book about two adorable penguins, i believe them to be adorable, parenting together. the state's attorney general is arguing a government can control libraries because theytient be a, quote, forum for free expression anyway. and rather public school libraries should be a forum for, quote, government, not private speech. the legal strategy here is the government trying to reduce court scrutiny, and teachers are caught in the breach. some have emptied their shelves until they get more clear guidance. in general, i can tell you the government funded schools and local librarians do inevitably make decisions about what books are in stock or what get restocked or sometimes what books come in and out of circulation in a school. that's not supposed to be a super heavy handed government process. what's going on here is at least evidence that politicians are now meddling in that inherently editorial process to just score points or to limit exposure to views and ideas like the idea of penguin parenting, that were otherwise reasonably available. and then they're making this pretty dystopian claims that libraries are, quote, not a forum for free expression. they're at odds with free expression. all of this matching past warnings we faced in many different societies abroad and in america about the danger of letting the government completely control, ban, or even burn books. >> have any of you guys seen one of these bad things for real? we burned almost every physical book in the country. it's about time you grow up, there won't be one book left. >> burn it. >> that's the thing about art and dystopia, it looks far fetched, extreme, fictional, until it comes home to roost and is real. these beautiful, cute penguins should not be something that politicians want to attack. but to be very clear, the suggestion fictionally that these penguins might be same gender parents or, yes, gay, that was enough to cause this whole court clash. why are so many powerful politicians in the florida republican party specifically going after cute penguins and parenting? and is that a good use of their time and consistent with free speech? that is the question facing, a, the courts, and b, the voters of florida. they'll make up their minds and we'll be right back. plus, superior nutrition. because the way we care is anything but ordinary. ♪♪ after advil. feeling better? on top of the worlddddd!!! before advil. advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. when pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liqui-gels. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? 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(announcer) change your life at golo.com. that's golo.com. thanks for spending time with us here on "the beat." we just showed you the penguins they're trying to ban in florida from being in school. my question at @arimelber, do you agree or disagree with banning penguins. you can connect with me directly. it is a bit of a loaded question because we thought the penguins were cute, but let us know what you think. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now.

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