the former president with an affinity for strongmen doubles down on his comments about being a decorator on a day one of a second term. former trump national security adviser john bolton has spent a lot of time with donald trump and the dictators. he's coming up first. the fight for reproductive freedom in texas gets a name in a face. as kate cox's story grips the state in the nation. the texas supreme court pauses a ruling that would allow her to get an abortion. also today, the president of upenn resigns amid an uproar over her handling of questions on antisemitism during a congressional hearing. professor and bestselling author adam grant joins me with his reaction. and later, with the iowa caucuses just around the corner, a deep dive into one of the most perplexing relationships in politics today. the one between donald trump and evangelical voters. ♪ ♪ ♪ so, i worked in politics for a long time, and in government for a long time, as did my first guest. and sometimes, that work included planning for the day one priorities of presidential candidates. specifically, for me, for barack obama, and of course, joe biden. obviously, a lot goes into that process. day one priorities are a reflection of the challenges the country is facing at the time. they're also a reflection of values. barack obama took office during the worst economic crisis in modern history. and during that time, he worked with the outgoing bush administration to pass measures that would help bring the economy back from the brink of collapse. joe biden took office during the worst pandemic in history. or in modern history. and his primary focus was on bringing the country together to address the covid crisis. and also put in place measures to help do that. obviously, donald trump has plans to go about governing a little bit differently. >> i want to go back to this one issue because the media has been focused on this and attacking you under no circumstances, you're promising america tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except for day one. >> he's going crazy. >> except for day one. >> meaning? >> i want to close the border. i want to drill, drill, drill. >> that's not retribution. >> i'm gonna be, we love this guy. he's not that you're gonna be a dictator, are you? i said no, other than day one. >> other than day one. his policy mission, closing the border, your drill drill drill, aren't surprising aspirations for him. they're also many in his party who might agree with that. but -- the plans for how he would approach the presidency. that's where i want to focus. being a dictator is not like a light switch you can just turn it on and turn it off. nobody that starts as a dictator typically relinquishes power to somehow reinvent themselves into a legitimate leader. that's the point. to hold onto power. and for anyone who thought this was some punchline that came out of left field, here's donald trump during his speech just last night. >> baker today in the new york times. he said that i want to be a dictator. i didn't say that. i said i want to be a dictator for one day. but the new york times said, and you know i want to be a dictated? because i want a wall. i want a wall and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> not exactly a helpful clarification there in his remarks. but it's not like the rhetoric is out of step with what we've been hearing from trump over the past few weeks. even before that. it's not like he had an out of character gaffe where he said he would be a dictator and wanted to be a dictator. remember, he has echoed the language of dictators saying he wants to root out vermin. he mirrored the tactics of autocrats projecting onto his rivals what he himself was actually doing. he's promised to use the justice system to go after anyone who dared critique him during his first term, including people who worked for him before. he has reportedly mapped out plans to unleash the military on protesters. that, by the way, is another day one priority. trump has consistently told us what he's going to do. it is serious. and even more so because of the people who continue to prop him up. the enablers and collaborators, as former representative liz cheney calls them in her new book. listen to cash patel, who served as trump's counterterrorism adviser on the national security council and as chief of staff to the acting secretary of defense at the end of the administration. >> we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government but in the media. yes, we're gonna come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens, who help joe biden rig presidential elections. we're gonna come after you. >> so, we are going to come after the media is exactly the kind of thing that authoritarian leaders and governments do. that's coming from someone who is expected to serve in a senior national security role in a possible trump's second term. trump is already building the infrastructure that will enable him to act on his impulses. when he tells us what his plans are, like he did once again this week, more than once this week, we should believe it. >> joining me now is a former member of the trump administration, former national security adviser, ambassador john bolton. ambassador, thank you so much for joining me here this afternoon. i want to start with this, you have dealt with dictators, in your role as national security high-level official over the years. do you see similarities in some of the tactics that trump is taking to what you've seen from authoritarian dictators? >> well, certainly, what he is trying to do in the past and what he's saying he's gonna do in the future go well beyond any conceivable conduct by prior american presidents, doesn't matter how much they were considered. nixon, richard nixon looks like a choir boy next to donald trump. so, i think it's him saying these things publicly. ironically, i have to say, i hope will be helpful. i think people should wake up to the reality. although the polls don't look critically good on the republican side, to continue to make efforts to deny the nomination. >> i know you're very hopeful about that, i want to dig into this. i do think that these tactics he's using or what we're seeing him project that he wants to do in a second term are important. you have dealt with, again, dictators around the world. it's not typically a sign of strength, is it? it's a sign that they're weak. because we're trying to hold on to power. >> in part, it is only doesn't have the slightest idea what he's doing. most presidents, we think of have policy agendas. trump does not have a policy agenda. he doesn't have a philosophy other than the greater glorification of donald trump. so, i think it's completely accurate and quite consistent for trump to say he wants retribution against his adversaries. and he will try and use the justice department, he may try and use the defense department. and we saw evidence of it in the first term. i do know from having to say, but i'm certainly a target for the publication of my book. he said it more times than i can count. that he wanted john kerry prosecuted for violating the logan act, which by the way, he was never able to do. the real question in the second term is, how much of that he will go beyond the pontificating about and actually try. i think the level that he will try is much higher than in the first term, and i think that should be a warning to everybody. >> you've said, which i think is interesting, a constitutional crisis. we could be facing a constitutional crisis on a daily basis. and i'm quoting from you. if world leaders around the world, other countries, if he proceeds what he's saying he's going to do with what you just outlined. how do they view that? how do they view the united states. >> i think it's gonna cause tremendous damage to the united states internationally. not to mention the damage it will cause domestically. and i said in 2020, the damage he did in his first term was not insignificant. but it was all repairable. the damage he could do in the second term, and i say that again even though the terms are disconnected, it might be irreparable. that i think is what's dangerous. i have to say, on the other hand, i don't think people should be apocalyptic about this. the framers of the constitution didn't write the document just for sunny days. it has the elements of structural constitutionalism make it difficult for trump to do a lot of what he wants. doesn't happen automatically. every citizen's got to be a part of it. but i think if you fall into a doom and gloom perspective, it's over. he's elected, it's just over. you are helping to give him what he wants. >> i know you've said that before, you don't want to be alarmist. i think sometimes people, that is a natural place for people to go. and there are things to be alarmed about. you've spent so much time in government, i do want to ask you about some of the specific pieces. i think that important people to understand. for example, he has said he could attempt to use his authority, he said he could use the military to stay in power. that's one of the things that representative cheney has touted. that others have spoken about. are you concerned about that. that he could use the military to try and stay in power? >> i think he will try and do that. there is one difference in a second trump term, which is the constitution is utterly unambiguous. he doesn't get a third term. efforts to stay in power beyond that are a bit different from what we saw in 2020. where a second term would've been legitimate if he had actually won. i think the attempt to order the military to do things that are illegal or unconstitutional is how this constitutional crisis on a daily basis gets started. because i think most military leaders take their oath to the constitution seriously. and if they're asked to do something or ordered to do something they think is illegal, that's where we're gonna see the crisis, they either refuse the order, and get fired, or they resign. that's how it will develop. that's where a lot of this, it's not when trump has an idea, it's not self executing. >> that is assuming, and you sit in the situation and room in many circumstances. i'm sure there been many moment, i know there been many moments, when you stood up and disagreed. trump has conveyed, and his team, has that he's going to surround himself with enablers. so, what happens if he's in the situation room and everybody is a yes man and a yes woman. what is the danger of that? >> well, that's very serious. let's just take his political points for a second. number one, it in part, it depends on who controls the senate. i'm not sure a lot of them, maybe even any of them in key departments, are gonna get confirmed by the senate very easily. he'd be dealing with a series of acting people. and even some of the people he nominates, or thinks are loyal to him go through this test that they're giving potential job applicants. it may come to a point where they say no. but even if all the political people say yes, they've still got to turn the military, the justice department to career people to actually do it. and i think injustice, you'll see the same kinds of resignations. it could result in, in very widespread resignations. this would, in part, bring the government to a halt. that's why this constitutional crisis i think is something that is going to prevent trump from acting as quickly as he thinks he's going to be able to. >> what about, you spent some time in the justice department, what about pardon power? and his use of pardon power? is that an area that concerns you? there are historic precedence, but there is not a system that is preventing a president from pardoning who he wants. >> no, the pardon power doesn't have checks in the constitution itself. there's a very elaborate process in the department to grant pardons. trump, essentially, ignored it. but there is a lot of pardons at the end of the clinton administration to that were dubious, to say the least. it's something that he could do. i'm sure he will do. and i'm sure he will abuse it. >> there's certainly some of the end of the clinton ministration, democrats, people have been critical of. but i think what trump is saying here, he's going to go after his enemies and pardon people who help him. which feels like a whole different level of concern. >> right, i think we should be concerned about it. but a lot of the people who went into the capitol grounds on january the 6th are going to be in jail still when he might be taking office. they're being pardoned could have an effect, i hope those people have been -- in prison. they don't come back and go back to what they were doing on january the 6th. that's part of the struggle, this is gonna be. nobody, i don't think anybody should have any illusions this is gonna be easy. what we want is not to overstate the threat, certainly now to understate the threat. we want to assess the threat accurately. so that our responses deal with it effectively. >> ambassador bolton, thank you so much for joining me with your christmas tie on today. appreciate being here with us this afternoon. >> coming up, upenn's president resigns after a tense congressional hearing on antisemitism. one of the schools most popular professors, adam grant, joins me next. plus, one woman's fight to terminate a non viable pregnancy has led to a legal showdown in texas. former state senator, -- joins me in just a few minutes. later, my deep dive into the fascinating relationship between donald trump and evangelical christians. we're just getting started this hour, it will be right back. hour, it will be right back. otherwise the flakes will come back. tiny troy: he's right, you know. is that tiny troy? 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(avo) this holiday turn any samsung phone, in any condition, into a galaxy s23+ on us. and now add netflix and max to your plan for just $10 a month. save big this holiday. only on verizon. as the war between israel and hamas continues, so do important debates about both the brutality of the war, the impact on civilians and the combatting of terrorism. those debates are happening as antisemitism and islamophobia are on the rise here at home. this week, this broader issue became more narrowly focused on college campuses. after presidents of some of the top u.s. universities testified before congress on how their schools are combatting some of these problems. some of their answers were, to put it bluntly, poor. . >> does calling for the genocide of jews violate penn's rules or cota conduct, yes or no? >> if the speech turns into conduct, it can be harassment. yes. >> i am asking specific calling for the genocide of jews, does that constitute blatant harassment? >> if it is directed and severe, it is harassment. >> the answer is yes? >> it is a context dependent decision, congresswoman. >> so, those responses from university of pennsylvania president liz magil received pretty widespread condemnation. yesterday, she announced that she had voluntarily resigned as president. just last night actually. but to step back for a moment, what is happening on college campuses is not the totality of the problem. it's just a part of the larger problem of the discourse surrounding this conflict. important debates around this conflict. how to recognize multiple truths at once. the single most horrific act of violence against jewish people since the holocaust, which happened on october 7th, the netanyahu government's resulting military campaign that has killed thousands of palestinian civilians, including thousands of children, and rising incidents of antisemitism and islamophobia across the country. joining me now, adam grant, an organizational psychologist, a podcast host and a bestselling author. he's out with a new book called hidden potential, which tennis great serena williams says will, quote, shatter yours notions of what it takes to improve and succeed. that is quite an endorsement. i also love this book. we're gonna talk about it in a moment. he's also consistently voted one of the best professors at the university of pennsylvania. we have to talk to him, of course, about the news that came out last night. and then get to the book. adam, i want to start with that. last night, liz mcgill was announced that she was resigning. you have been a tenured professor at university pennsylvania for sometime. i want to get your reaction to that resignation. >> well, jen, look, this is a tough time to be a university president. there have been many tests this fall, and i think congress was the final exam. unfortunately, we heard from lawyers when we needed leaders. i think, as every professor knows, when you fail a test that big, you don't get to keep your job. i think after losing the trust of a lot of stakeholders and many followers, you're no longer a capable of leading effectively. >> so, her resignation last night, you know, there's been a bit of a victory lap by those who called for it out there publicly. my bet, is you're not exactly for. her resignation is not exactly going to solve the rising antisemitism, the rise also in islamophobia. this is a big question. do you think the policies in place right now at the university of pennsylvania are enough? >> honestly, i don't. i don't have any easy answers. i think policing speech is an extremely complicated and dangerous endeavor. but i think it's been a long time since our policies have been reviewed and rethought. and i think we have a responsibility to take a look and say, we don't want to have a hostile environment. we also need to be consistent in our moral clarity and our enforcement. if we're going to police speech around telling students that they can't cause emotional discomfort for their classmates, then we certainly need to be equally consistent and strong on the question of, can they call for violence against students? and threaten their physical safety? i think we have a lot of thinking and hard work ahead. and not entirely sure what's gonna land. >> we'll have to have you back on, i want to listen to your podcast when you talk about this, adam, you know i'm a very frequent podcast listeners of all of your endeavors. i do want to ask you about this amazing book. you have to come back and talk more about it. one of my favorite things you make clear in this book, being underestimated can be empowering. i would say, you and i have talked about this, through my career i know i've experienced i've been underestimated many times more often than i do find it empowering. you talk about a lot of people who experience that we are way more famous than me. way more successful. explain to me why is that true from a scientific standpoint? it feels counterintuitive.