the former president with a 34 strong men doubles down on his comments about being a dictator on day one on a second term. former trump national security adviser john bolton has spent a lot of time with donald trump and the dictators. he's coming up first. the fight for reproductive freedom in texas gets a name in a face. as kate cox's story grips the state in the nation. the texas supreme court pauses a ruling that would allow her to get an abortion. also today, the president of upenn resigns amid an uproar over her handling of questions on antisemitism during a congressional hearing. professor and bestselling author adam grant joins me with his reaction. and later, with the iowa caucus is just around the corner, and deep dive into one of the most perplexing relationships in politics today. the one between donald trump and evangelical voters. ♪ ♪ ♪ so, i worked in politics for a long time, and in government for a long time, as did my first guest. and sometimes, that work included planning for the day one priorities of presidential candidates. specifically, for me, for barack obama, and of course, joe biden. obviously, a lot goes into that process. day one priorities are a reflection of the challenges the country is facing at the time. they're also a reflection of values. barack obama took office during the worst economic crisis in modern history. and during that time, he worked with the outgoing bush administration to pass measures that would help bring the economy back from the brink of collapse. joe biden took office during the worst pandemic in history. or in modern history. and his primary focus was on bringing the country together to address the covid crisis. and also put in place measures to help do that. obviously, donald trump has plans to go about governing a little bit differently. >> i want to go back to this one issue of what is the media has been focused on this and attacking you under no circumstances, you're promising america tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except for day one. >> he's going crazy. >> except for day one. >> meaning? >> i want to close the border. i want to drill, drill, drill. >> that's not retribution. >> i'm gonna be, we love this guy. he's not that you're gonna be a dictator, are you? i said no, other than they won. >> other than day one. his policy mission, closing the bore, your drill drill drill, aren't surprising aspirations for him. they're also many in his party who might agree with that. but -- the plans for how he would approach the presidency. that's where i want to focus. being a dictator is not like a light switch you can just turn it on and turn it off. nobody that starts as a dictator typically relinquishes power to somehow reinvent themselves into a legitimate leader. that's the point. told on the power. and for anyone who thought this was some punchline that came out of left field, here's donald trump during his speech just last night. >> baker today in the new york times. he said that i want to be a dictator. i didn't say that. he said i want to be a dictator for one day. but the new york times said, and you know i want to be a dictated? because i want a wall. i want a wall and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> not exactly a helpful clarification there in his remarks. but it's not like the rhetoric is out of step with what we've been hearing from trump over the past few weeks. even before that. it's not like he had an out of character gaffe where he said he would be a dictator and wanted to be addicted. remember, he has echoed the language of dictators saying he wants to root out vermin. he mirrored the tactics of autocrats projecting onto his rivals what he himself was actually doing. he's promised to use the justice system to go after anyone who dared critique him during his first term, including people who worked for him before. he has reportedly mapped out plans to unleash the military on protesters. that, by the, way is another day one priority. trump has consistently told us what he's going to do. it is serious. and even more so because of the people who continue to prop him up. the enablers and collaborators, as former representative liz cheney calls of a new book. listen to cash patel, who served as trump's counterterrorism adviser on the national security council and as chief of staff to the acting secretary of defense at the end of the administration. >> we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government but in the media. yes, we're gonna come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens, who help joe biden rig presidential elections. we're gonna come after you. >> so, we are going to come after the media is exactly the kind of thing that authoritarian leaders and governments do. that's coming from someone who is expected to serve in a senior national security role in a possible trump's second term. trump is already building the infrastructure, that will enable him to act on his impulses. when he tells us what his plans are, like he did once again this week, more than once this week. we should believe it >> joining me now is a former member of the trump administration, former national security adviser, ambassador john bolton. ambassador, thank you so much for joining me here this afternoon. i want to start with this, you have dealt with dictators, in your role as national security high-level official over the years. do you see similarities in some of the tactics that trump is taking to what you've seen from authoritarian dictators? >> well, certainly, what he is trying to do in the past and what he's saying he's gonna do in the future go well beyond in conceivable conduct by prior american presidents, doesn't matter how much they were considered. nixon richard nixon looks like a choir boy next to donald trump. so, i think it's him saying these things publicly. ironically, i have to say, i hope will be hopeful. i think people should wake up to the reality. although the polls don't look critically good on the republican side, to continue to make efforts to deny the nomination. >> i know you're very hopeful about that, i want to dig into this. i do think that these tactics he's using or what we're seeing him project that he wants to do in a second term are important. you have dealt with, again, dictators around the world. it's not typically a sign of strength, is it? it's a sign that their week. because we're trying to hold on to power. >> in part, it is only doesn't have the slightest idea what he's doing. most presidents, we think of have policy agendas. trump does not have a policy agenda. he doesn't have a philosophy other than the greater glorification of donald trump. so, i think it's completely accurate and quite consistent for trump to say he wants retribution against his adversaries. and people try and use the justice department, he may try and use the defense department. and we saw evidence of it in the first term. i do know from having to say, but i'm certainly a target for the publication of my book. he said in more times than i can count. that he wanted john kerry prosecuted for violating the logan act, which by the way, he was never able to do. the real question in the second term is, how much of that he will go beyond the pontificating about and actually try. i think the level that he will try as much higher than in the first term, and i think that should be a warning to everybody. >> you've said, which i think is interesting, a constitutional crisis. we could be facing a constitutional crisis on a daily basis. and i'm quoting for you. if world leaders around the world, other countries, if he proceeds what he's saying he's going to do with what you just outlined. how do they view that? how do they view the united states. >> i think it's gonna cause tremendous damage to the united states internationally. not to mention the damage it will cause domestically. and i said in 2020, the damage he did in his first term was not insignificant. but it was all repairable. the damage he could do in the second term, and i say that again even though the terms are disconnected, it might be irreparable. that i think is what's dangerous. i have to say, on the other hand, i don't think people should be apocalyptic about this. the framers of the constitution didn't write the document just for sunny days. it has the elements of structural constitutionalism make it difficult for trump to do a lot of what he wants. doesn't happen automatically. every citizen's got to be a part of it. but i think if you fall into a doom and gloom perspective, it's over. he's elected, it's just over. you are helping to give him what he wants. >> i know you've said that before, you don't want to be alarmist. i think sometimes people, that is a natural place for people to go. and there are things to be alarmed about. you've spent so much time in government, i do want to ask you about some of the specific pieces. i think that important people to understand. for example, he has said he could attempt to use his authority, he said he could use it the military to stay in power. that's one of the things that representative cheney has touted. that others have spoken about. are you concerned about that. that he could use the military to try and stay in power? >> i think he will try and do that. there is one difference in a second trump term, which is the constitution is utterly unambiguous. he doesn't get a third term. efforts to stay in power beyond that are a bit different from what we saw in 2020. where a second term would've been legitimate if he had actually won. i think the attempt to order the military to do things that are illegal or unconstitutional is how this constitutional crisis on a daily basis get started. because i think most military leaders take their oath to the constitution seriously. and if they're asked to do something or order to do something they think it's illegal, that's where we're gonna see the crisis, they either refuse the order, and get fired, or they resign. that's how it will develop. that's where a lot of this, it's not when trump is an idea, it's not self executing. >> that is assuming, and you sit in the situation and room in many circumstances. i'm sure there been many moment, i know there been many moments, when you stood up and disagreed. trump has conveyed, and his team, has that he's going to surround himself with enablers. so, what happens if he's in the situation room and everybody is a yes men a yes woman. what is the danger of that? >> well, that's very serious. let's just take his political points for a second. number one, it in part, it depends on who control the senate. i'm not sure a lot of them, maybe even any of them in key departments, are gonna get confirmed by the senate very easily. he'd be dealing with a series of acting people. and even some of the people he nominates, or things are loyal to him go through this test that they're giving potential job applicants. it may come to a point where they say no. but even if all the political people say yes, they've still got to turn the military, the justice department to career people to actually do it. and i think injustice, you'll see the same kinds of resignations. it could result in, in very widespread resignations. this would, in part, bring the government to a halt. that's why this constitutional crisis i think is something that is going to prevent trump from acting as quickly as he thinks he's going to be able to. >> what about, you spent some time in the justice department, what about pardon power. and his use of pardon power. is that an area that concerns you? there are historic precedence, but there is not a system that is preventing a president from pardoning who he wants. >> no, the pardon power doesn't have checks in the constitution itself. there's a very elaborate process in the department to grant pardons. trump, essentially, ignored it. but there is a lot of pardons at the end of the clinton administration to that were dubious, to say the least. it's something that he could do. i'm sure he will do. and i'm sure he will abuse it. >> there's certainly some of the end of the clinton ministration, democrats, people have been critical of. but i think what trump is saying here, he's going to go after his enemies and pardon people who help them. which feels like a whole different level of concern. >> right, i think we should be concerned about it. but a lot of the people who went into the capitol grounds on january the 6th are going to be in jail still when he might be taken office. they're being pardoned could have an effect, i hope those people have been -- in prison. they don't come back and go back to what they were doing on january the 6th. that's part of the struggle, this is gonna be. nobody i don't think anybody should have any illusions this is gonna be easy. what we want is not to overstate the threat, certainly now to understate the threat. we want to assess the threat accurately. so that our responses deal with it effectively. >> ambassador bolton, thank you so much for joining me with your christmas tie on today. appreciate being here with us this afternoon. >> coming up, you pinch president resigns after a tense congressional hearing on antisemitism. one of the schools most popular professors, adam grant, joins me next. plus, one woman's fight to terminate a non viable pregnancy has led to a legal showdown in texas. former state senator, -- joins me in just a few minutes. later, my deep dive into the fascinating relationship between donald trump and evangelical christians. we're just getting started this hour, it will be right back. k. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna hold you forever... ♪ ♪ i'll be there... ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪ (husband) ♪ hey there family! while you're shopping, ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ get me a 5g phone, it's on my list. ♪ (wife) instead of doing all of this a better plan is to switch to verizon. 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>> if the speech turns into conduct, it can be harassment. yes. >> i am asking specific calling for the genocide of jews, does that constitute be blatant harassment. >> if it is directed in severe, it is harassment. >> the answer is yes? >> it is a context dependent decision, congresswoman. >> so, those responses from university of pennsylvania president liz mcgill received pretty widespread condemnation. yesterday, pan announced that she had voluntarily resigned as president. just last night actually. but to step back for a moment, what is happening on college campuses is not the totality of the problem. it's just a part of the larger problem of the discourse surrounding this conflict. important debates around this conflict. how to recognize multiple truths at once. the single most horrific act of violence against jewish people since the holocaust, which happened on october 7th, the netanyahu government response resulting military campaign that has killed thousands of palestinian civilians, including thousands of children, and rising incidents of antisemitism and islamophobia across the country. joining me now, adam grant, an organizational psychologist, a podcast host and a bestselling author. he's out with a new book called hidden potential, which tennis great serena williams says will, quote shatter yours notions of what it takes to improve and succeed. that is quite an endorsement. i also love this book. we're gonna talk about it in a moment. he's also consistently voted one of the best professors at the university of pennsylvania. we have to talk to him, of course, about the news that came out last night. and then get to the book. adam, i want to start with that. last night, liz mcgill was announced that she was resigning. you, are you have been a tenured professor at university pennsylvania for sometime. i want to get your reaction to that resignation. >> well, jim, look, this is a tough time to be a university president. there have been many tests this fall, and i think congress was the final exam. unfortunately, we heard from lawyers when we needed leaders. i think, as every professor knows, when you fail a test that big, you don't get to keep your job. i think after losing the trust of a lot of stakeholders in many followers, you're no longer a capable of leading effectively. >> so, her resignation last night, you know, there's been a bit of a victory lap by those who called for it out there publicly. my bet, is you're not exactly for. her resignation is not exactly going to solve the rising antisemitism, the rise also in islamophobia. this is a big question. do you think the policies in place right now at the university of pennsylvania are enough? >> honestly, i don't. i don't have any easy answers. i think policing speech is an extremely complicated and dangerous endeavor. but i think it's been a long time since our policies have been reviewed and rethought. and i think we have a responsibility to take a look and say, we don't want to have a hostile environment. we also need to be consistent in our moral clarity and our enforcement. if we're going to police speech around telling students that they can't cause emotional discomfort for their classmates. then we certainly need to be equally consistent in strong on the question of, can they call for violence against students? and threaten their physical safety? i think we have a lot of thinking and hard work ahead. and not entirely sure what's gonna land. >> we'll have to have you back on, i want to listen to your podcast when you talk about this, adam, you know i'm a very frequent podcast listeners of all of your endeavors. i do want to ask you about this amazing book. you have to come back and talk more about it. one of my favorite things you make clear in this book, being underestimated can be empowering. i would say, you would have talked about this, through my career i know i've experienced i've been underestimated many times more often than i do find it empowering. you talk about a lot of people who experience that we are way more famous than me. we more successful. explain to me why is that true from a scientific standpoint? it feels counterintuitive. >> yeah, this is research by my colleague sahmir muhammad. what she shows that other people doubt you that can actually turn into resource motivational fuel. when a lot of people will do when they feel like underdogs, is say, you don't know me. or you don't know this task. i am going to prove you wrong. and rise to the occasion. look, jen, we can't always control what people expect of us. there's always gonna be doubters in naysayers. when we face those critics, one of the first things we ought to do is ask, is this person credible to judge me? if not, let me shatter those false expectations. >> that feels like a hard thing to determine. is this person credible to judge me? again, you talk about that as well here. i also wanted to ask you about this term social skydiving. this also feels counterintuitive. you basically say that you are learning something new, when you learn something new, you should try to increase your number of mistakes. this puts you in a real position of vulnerability as someone who's changed industries myself. that's not what most people do. why is that the right approach? why does that work? >> well, i think that the mistake a lot of us makers when we're trying to learn something new, we basically take tiny risks. that means we don't challenge ourselves. we don't stretch beyond our comfort zone. i had to face this with public speaking. i am an introvert, i was extremely shy. i wasn't comfortable getting on stage. i could have practiced lots of five minute speeches. instead, i said i wanted to dive in headfirst in the deep. and i got some friends to let me give entire guest lectures in their classes. i don't know where they agreed, but standing in front of an audience for a whole hour at a time, i screwed up a lot more. i also learned a lot more and accelerated my own progress. >> i, mean that's maybe way one of the favorite professors at university of pennsylvania, and also way of such a great podcast. adam grant, thank, you as always. this book is amazing. it will open peoples minds, i totally recommend it. thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. coming up a woman in texas hangs in an agonizing state of limbo as the courts decide whether or not she can terminate a nonviable pregnancy. later, i'll do my best to explain donald trump's relationship with religion, in particular, evangelical christians. it's a head-scratcher. tim alberta literally wrote the book on that topic. he joins me just a few minutes. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. and its refill reminder light means i'll never miss a day of freshness. ♪ whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ woman: who's that, who is that? 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did we peak your interest? you can get two unlimited lines for just $30 each a month. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. kate talks live their husband it's not just possible, it's happening. and two children outside of dallas. she is 20 weeks pregnant with her third child. recently, and tragically, doctors discovered that their baby as a rare genetic condition. one that, in all likelihood, according to the doctors will result in a stillbirth or death soon after the child is born. according to her doctor, carrying the pregnancy to term could risk her own health and future fertility, into must-have markets. so, kate asked a judge to make an exception to the states draconian laws so she could receive an abortion. on thursday, a judge quickly granted her request saying, quote, the idea that miss cox wants desperately to be apparent and this law might actually cause her to lose that ability is shocking and would be a genuine miscarriage of justice. for the state of texas, and it's republican attorney general, that guy, ken paxton, a guy who, by the way, was recently impeached by the texas house and is still under federal indictment for securities fraud, that apparently didn't meet his well earned moral standard. that sarcastic if you can tell. after that, judges ruling, paxton put a letter threatening prosecution for anyone who follow the judges order. that means doctors, and even kate's husband, paxton also asked the texas supreme court issue an emergencies -- to block the lower court order. late on friday night, the texas supreme court granted that stay. kate cox is forced to wait. as ken paxton, ironically, sits on his own high horse and attempts to persuade the state to override doctors, and decide on kate behalf, what's best for her health and her family. joining me now, wendy davis, she's a former state senator for texas. well known for her 13-hour long filibuster to block abortion restrictions about a decade ago. she's now a senior adviser for planned parenthood, texas votes. wendy, i'm so appreciative that you could be here with me this afternoon. and i just wanted to start by asking you, you've been talking to women in texas about abortion rights what stands out to me so much about this story, it really puts a face on something so many women are experiencing. in texas and around the country. i want to ask you just what you're hearing if the ten, or the conversations have changed at all over the last couple of days? >> thank you so much for having me on, jen. the story is a tragic story. unfortunately, it's just one of many that people are experiencing around our state. there are more than 20 million women involved in the lawsuit right now represented by the center for reproductive rights and our partners who are also representing miss cox in this case. each of whom was put into some physical danger as a consequence of their doctors inability to perform the abortion medical care that they needed. and that is the reality on the ground. behind those stories are so, so many more. it's the tragedy of what happens when a legislature gets involved in these health care decisions. >> you responded, i, mean the ken paxton of this all is really, as you can tell by the introduction, has stuck with me. he responded by saying this is an ugly -- , one step forward, one giant threatening step back. what is the texas supreme court decision practically mean for women in texas? they're already restrictions. but those who are trying to get the health care they need that are looking for these types of exceptions. >> you know, the important thing about what ken paxton did, and this is part in parcel of what we've seen every single time someone in texas tries to challenge the abortion bans that are in place here. he threatens. our laws in texas right now allow the prosecution of a doctor, if he is seen, or she is seen to have violated this law. not only to lose their medical license, but to suspend the rest of their life in prison. that's the point here. even where a court says it's okay, which of, course happened a couple of days ago, ken paxton immediately comes behind that decision and says, it doesn't matter, we're still going to sue you criminally and hold you liable for what you do. it's that climate of fear that they've been succeeding in for even since before dobbs decision came down from a supreme court here. it has created such a tenor of fear, and of course, for so many women across our state, a situation where their health and their lives are literally endangered. >> it is basically impossible to ignore the fact that this one man still under indictment is trying to insert himself in some sort of moral authority for the state. i'm glad that you raise that. what do you think, you've touched on a lot of this, but for people trying to understand who live in states where there are not the same restrictions, what do people not understand about what it's like to live in a place like texas right now? if you are a young woman childbearing age. try to make decisions about your own health care. >> more and more, we are hearing that women are afraid to become pregnant in our state. more and more, we're hearing that people don't want to relocate to our state. we are losing ob/gyn doctors, who are leaving our state. we have fewer and fewer people who want to get their ob/gyn residencies here in texas. so, not only is it creating a crisis for women who are seeking abortion care for a variety of reasons, but it's also a crisis for people who are seeking a healthy pregnancy care. and for whom so many the only medical care they ever get is from their ob/gyn visit where cancer is discovered, and so many other health care issues that now they are going to face the climate of what it means to have a dearth of these doctors in our state. because the state has created such a tremendously difficult climate for them here. and i hope that what people will understand, very importantly about these laws, there is no such thing as an exception. i know a lot of people think, well, yes. i think i could accept an abortion, prohibition if it had reasonable exceptions but the fact of the matter is, lawmakers in attorney generals and judges are always the ones who get to decide whether the exception applies. so far, we haven't seen it happen one single time in our state. >> i mean, this is such an important point for people to hear. the biden campaign is pointing to the texas case that republican wins the white house. what's happening in texas could be the reality. but basically an abortion ban. if there is no exceptions, that is essentially a national abortion ban. is that something you think is realistic? >> i think it's absolutely a reality. i hope that electorally, we will really press this point home. recent polling showed that for democratic women and independent women, abortion is the number one issue upon which they will vote. next november. it's important for us to keep sharing these human stories. i am so, so said for kate cox and the experience that she's going through. i went through the exact same experience myself. and if we can just help people understand, even if you think you're never going to confront the need for an abortion, you or someone you love, very likely will. and it's important that we protect this right in every state across this country. and the national election coming up next cycle is going to be such an important part of making sure that we can do that. >> wendy davis, thank you for telling your story. for telling kate cox's story, thank you for your time today. up next, how exactly did evangelical christians become one of donald trump's most loyal and unwavering voting blocks? i'm wondering, many of you may be as well. it's one of the straighter stories in politics. it's coming up next. we're back after this. s. immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) i love that my daughter still needs me. but sometimes i can't help due to burning and stabbing pain in my hands, so i use nervive. nervive's clinical dose of ala reduces nerve discomfort in as little as 14 days. now i can help again. feel the difference with nervive. so, as i was republican caucuses just five weeks away, can you believe that? it's worth pointing out that no voting bloc in that state has been more crucial to the outcome then evangelical christians. and yet, even jackals or become the most steadfast, if unlikely allies of donald trump. even today, after everything he has said and done, trump's hold over such a devoutly religious community remains something of a mystery. and their initial embrace of him was as nonsensical as it was unexpected. given trump's profound ignorance of christian teachings. that became obvious back in 2015, when trump was specifically asked to name a favorite bible passage. any passage at all. and he will do. he simply wouldn't, or really more likely, couldn't. >> i'm wondering what one or two of your most favorite bible versus our. >> i don't want to get into. it is very personal. the bible means a lot to, me i want to get institute specifics. >> even to cite a verse you like? >> no, i don't to do that. >> are you an old guy or new testament guy? >> probably equal. >> probably equal. their testament, old testament. doesn't want to get into, it too personal. then there was the time he famously referred to 2 corinthians as 2 corinthians. >> i hear this is a major theme right here. 2 corinthians, 2 corinthians, 3:17. that's the whole ball game. >> this arrow is probably most apparent to very regular churchgoers. it wasn't especially glaring mistake to make at liberty university. where he delivered that speech. but perhaps what should have been the biggest red flag to evangelicals was when trump said he never sought forgiveness for his sins. >> have you ever asked god for forgiveness? >> i'm not sure i have, i tried to a better job from there. i don't think so. >> i don't think so. but trump's lack of basic understanding of the bibles to say nothing of them in trump actually is. which is almost more important. he's a deeply dishonest, serial adulterer, who is bragged about sexual abuse. despite all of that, trump won 81% of white evangelicals in 2016. somehow. a greater share of that vote then even george w. bush received in 2004. who, by the way was an actual born-again christians. as uncomfortable as trump may have been with christian teachings, he didn't hesitate to wield the bible as a political weapon. he did so quite literally when he used it as a prop for a photo op in the spring of 2020. showed right there. just after he violently removed peaceful protesters from lafayette park. what's more troubling, the evangelical community a large is buying what trump is selling. that's the subject of a new book by tim alberta, the kingdom, the power in the glory. american evangelicals in an age of extremism. he writes the quote, in the year after trump left office, there was one demographic group that most likely, most likely to believe that the election had been stolen. that vaccines were dangerous. that globalists were controlling the u.s. population, that liberal celebrities were feasting on the blood of infants. that resorting to violence might be necessary to save the country. white evangelicals. the backing trump countless evangelical voters have chosen to condone or overlook his behavior. behavior that feels like it should be completely at odds with their christian values. as alberta writes, their embrace of trump has exposed, quote the selective morality and ethical inconsistency and rank hypocrisy that had, for so long lurk in the subconscious of the evangelical movement. tim alberta, by the way, grew up in this movement. why do so many evangelicals continue to rationalize trump's bad behavior? well, luckily, tim alberta joins us next to answer that question. wer that question ♪ we're building a better postal service. for more on-time deliveries. and easier, affordable ways to ship. so you can deliver even more holiday joy. the united states postal service. delivering for america. 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[music playing] welcome back. joining me now, tim alberta. staff writer for the atlantic, and author of the new book, the kingdom, the power in the glory. american evangelicals in the age of extremism. it's quite a title, but it really is captured in this book. i really appreciate, you're so honest and forthright in this book about a community that is a mystery to so many people. i want to start, one of the things you really talk about in here is the permission structure. that evangelicals have built, or some many the committee to justify trump's depravity, as you put it. those are terms you use. explain to what lengths they'll go to, the people you're referencing, to rationalize behavior that is so contradictory to what i think many of us would understand our values to be? >> yeah, i think, you know, your caveat a moment ago was that some of these people. we're talking about a vast spectrum of individuals. and listen, i've encountered in my travels lots of people who voted for trump in 16, even some for whatever him in 20, and still feel sick about it. and we are completely conflicted and don't know what to think about any of this. the yet, they still care very deeply about abortions, an ethical issues. they're just torn. and then you have, at the other end of the spectrum, this growing faction of the militant right-wing christian nationalist types who are coming to view trump in many ways as their champion. as their protector. it's not coincidental that we hear trump more and more deploying that very rhetoric on the campaign trail. talking about how he will protect christians. how he will protect the church. how christians will have power with him in office. you know, what began as a transnational relationship, transactional, he was gonna give them pulses they wanted. they're gonna give him their votes, that was it. it's turned to something else. and i think, even though he's not one of them, i would argue that in some way, that is his rp he is able to fight fire with fire, he is able to cast aside christian virtue. he's unbound from the biblical etiquette that they themselves hold dear. he's willing to fight in ways that no good christian wood. and as crazy as that sounds, i think that that is his greatest appeal to these people. >> which is so interesting, as you describe it this way. the irony here, perhaps is that despite being a champion of a number of issues that members of the evangelical community care about. he doesn't exactly hold the highest esteem for the people in the community. he's called them so-called christians. pieces of you know what i'm not gonna use the exact term because it's a family show. when they don't support him. it sounds like what you're saying is, they were aware. my question was, did they know that they're being used? it is that okay with him? they're using him to? >> in fact, i think it is okay with many of them. now, don't get me wrong. here, again there's some nuance. there's a lot of these folks who firmly, deep in their bones believe that trump has become a born again christian. that he is one of them. that he is a divine tool, a god ordained leader at this time for these purposes. and that he is not just fighting for them, but that he is one of them truly. i would say that is a smaller minority of these folks. i think the great majority of them they recognize that he's not one of them. they recognize even that he probably, you know, says these things, hold these views of them in private. and they don't really care. i am reminded, even just a couple of weeks ago, he's doing this awful vulgar language at a political rally, dropping mfs and the like. i remember seeing some of the twitter traffic around these evangelical spaces where people just shrugging and saying. yeah but so what this is zero-sum. he winds. or we lose. that those are the stakes they are stakes not just at a partisan level. they are stakes for many of these people, jim, and a spiritual level. this is good and evil. and it's binary. and trump is the one who's the field general, charging into the trenches against the evil progressives who are trying to banish chris cherry from public life. >> i think the answer to this is, they don't care, but i want to know. is there anything that trump could do at this point like say, for example, trump was just talking about being a dictator on day one this week. is there anything he could do like that that would make them turn the other way? what do you think they would think of, would you think the committee thinks about him saying something like that? >> it's interesting. donald trump, after the 2022 midterms, he threw pro-lifers under the bus in a pretty brazen way. and for the first time we really saw a bit of a slippage with his numbers as it pertains to the white evangelical base. there's a real opening there for -- desantis, a haley, somebody. to exploit that vulnerability. a lot of pro-lifers very upset with him, and by extension some evangelicals really upset with him. shortly thereafter, jen, alvin bragg delivered that first indictment, and his numbers went right back up. like a hockey stick graph. this and i think what that speaks to is a certain persecution complex that is very real in certain corners of evangelical world. they believe that the culture is coming for them. that christiane italy is under siege. before long, they won't even be able to gather physically in worship together. and donald trump in fact for these 91 counts in for all of the criminal and civil proceedings, all these clouds hanging over him, they are not supporting him in spite of those things, in many ways there supporting him because of those things. because when he says that i am your retribution, when he says that they're coming after, you have got to get to me first. >> they hear it as them. >> the hearing is them. it resonates deeply. >> tim alberta, this is quite a book. i really appreciate you coming in. also writing this book with such honesty and clarity for so many of us who are not experts on the community, didn't grow up in one as you did. the book is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, american evangelicals in an age of extremism. it's available wherever you get your books. coming up, some very exciting news about what we're working on for tomorrow night. we're back after a quick break. e back after a quick break well, we have a pretty big show coming up tomorrow night. i'm really looking forward to sitting down with former republican congresswoman, liz cheney. we will talk about her new book, we'll talk about donald trump's recent comments about wanting to be a dictator on day one. we know it's longer than that. we'll talk about how democrats and republicans like her can make sure he doesn't land a second term. the former president is also set to take the stand tomorrow in manhattan's civil fraud trial. former u.s. attorney for the southern district will also join me to recap this day in court. as the defense prepares to rest its case. that's all coming up tomorrow night at eight pm eastern. for now, stay right where you are. there is much more news coming up here on msnbc. >>

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