greetings, everyone. you're watching symone. a major blow to women's rights, to make decisions about our own bodies even when our health is at risk. the texas supreme court blocked, at least for now, a dallas woman's court approved exception to the states abortion ban. kate cox needs emergency reproductive medical care. i'll be talking to her lead attorney about how justice is being delayed, and frankly, it's about to be denied. it isn't even justice? also chaos on capitol hill, not showing any signs of slowing down from a bogus impeachment inquiry both next week to the erosion of norms and civil liberties. led by house republican who rose to first overturn the 2020 presidential election, and talk about speaker mike johnson. followed a would-be dictator donald trump. congressman benny thompson is here to weigh in on what's next. plus, the presidents of harvard, penn and am i t facing major blow back after lawmakers press them to say rhetoric calling for the genocide of jews would not be tolerated on their campuses. or to put a more pointedly, as a violation of their student code of conduct. we're gonna dig into the fallout. symone sanders-townsend, and have something to say. ♪ ♪ ♪ imagine that you and your partner want to start a family. you are ecstatic then to find out that your pregnant. you start talking about names, you are decorating the nursery. you tell folks close to you what's the new development in your life. one day, you go to the doctor, you get a devastating news that your pregnancy is no longer viable. and that you need an abortion. devastating. your crushed. all of a sudden, you are living every woman's worst nightmare. and to make that nightmare worse, the state you live in has banned access to an abortion. so, in order to get potentially lifesaving medical care, you either have to travel during a major health emergency, or convince a judge that you are sick enough to need to terminate the pregnancy. that is what is happening to kate cox in texas right now. and if you are a woman living in one of the 14 states with near total abortion bans, this is what could happen to you. late last night, the texas state supreme blocked a lower court's ruling to allow an exception to the states near total abortion ban in one case. the temporary restraining order would have allowed a 31-year-old dallas woman to receive an abortion. the higher court calls the lower court ruling, and they did not indicate when they would have additional thoughts in the new ruling would come down. it's paused indefinitely. we could say. a delay in their decision could have deadly consequences for texas native peacocks. an initial lawsuit, cox sue the state for access to this urgent reproductive care after her fetus was diagnosed with a rare in fatal genetic condition that meant her pregnancy may not survive to birth. and if it does, her baby would be stillborn or survive for only minutes, hours, or days. cox could also develop several severe complications, including hypertension, gestational diabetes, and infection and should she carry the pregnancy to term, she's a very high risk for uterine rupture, and had to have a hysterectomy. let me just make it very clear, she is at very high risk to be infertile. to have her uterus removed. to end her ability to have a child. and in just the last month, kate cox has been to the emergency room for times. texas attorney general the, ken paxton, he, however questioned whether any of that qualified as a medical emergency. a specified in the texas code as, quote, a life-threatening physical condition, aggravated by or arising from pregnancy that places the female at risk of death or poses a serious risk of substantial impairment. of major bodily function, unless the abortion is performed. losing the ability to have children is an impairment of major bodily function. okay. i guess the texas supreme court is going to decide that. let's just be very clear, everyone. kate cox today. she could die. this is the first time since roe v. wade that was decided in 1973, that an actively pregnant woman has gone to court to receive an abortion. kate cox should not have had to go this far to get the medical care that she needs. she's not giving up without a fight. here's what she told nbc news before the temporary hold came down. >> i think it's important to have medical care in my home state. i wanted to tell my story because i do think it's important, before we went through this, i never imagined that we would be in this position. i've said i never thought i would ever need or want an abortion. i always wanted a family, i have a wonderful husband he wants more kids as well. so, this has been a hard time. and i think, i just want to share so people can see, forcing me to continue the pregnancy, the pain and suffering, going through the risks of continuing the pregnancy, the wrister childbirth, again, especially given how my last two went, i think it's cool. >> this is cool. this is an intrusion of kate's privacy, of her dignityand as one of kaylor said, quote it is unforgivable that she was forcedo to court toas for it. most women, folks, are not able to do what kate has ne. many texans have been forced to continue pregnanciesthat put their lives at risk. that is happening every day across texas, every day across this country, as long as abortion is banned. pregnant people will suffer. this is an intrusion, again, of every woman in american's privacy and dignity. this, folks, is what the government is infringing on your rights looks like. i want to bring in now mark heron. he is the senior counsel at the center for reproductive rights, which is representing kate cox, her husband and kate dr.. mr. herrin, thank you very much for joining me today. i first want to start with what was your reaction, miss cox and a husband's reaction when they heard this news last night? >> sure, thanks for having me, simone. thanks for spending so much time on the story. your lead up, i could not have said any of that better than how you framed this issue. the texas supreme court last night, late last night, issued what's called an administrative stay, and what that signals is, they need more time. these issues are, something that they are thinking long and hard about they couldn't reach a decision in one day. and issued something, it's obviously disappointing because we do strongly believe that kate fits within the medical exceptions, as you say, her reproductive functions system is a major bodily function. it clearly fits within the medical exception. and the idea just taking a step back, that kate had to come to court and ask for permission to get essential health care, health care that she needs to be able to expand her family in the way that she and her husband want, it's ridiculous. that that's where we are today. >> it is absolutely ridiculous, i was on air guest hosting for the 11 pm last night when the news came down. i was frankly shocked. i immediately wondered, what options to kate and her husband have now after the supreme court today? >> well, kate's gonna look at all of her options right now we are still focused on hoping to get a decision quickly out of the texas supreme court. look, kate shouldn't have to explore options like going out of state. she should be able to get an abortion at home. with her doctor, in her home community. it is a human rights violation, for people to force someone like kate to have to now explore, one of the other possibilities that i have? what the state is trying to do is take away all of her options. and forced her to continue carrying a pregnancy that's not gonna end in a healthy child at the end of the pregnancy. for all of the states asserted interests in fetal life, this is not gonna end in a healthy child. and in the meanwhile, if k is forced to continue this pregnancy, she's being exposed to health risks, as you mentioned if she has to have another c-section or if she is forced to give birth she could have a uterine rupture. she could lose her ability to have more kids in the future, and that is what she is so desperately trying to protect. >> mark, have you heard from other women in texas? are you worried that this hold will have further chilling effect on women in the state who are seeking reproductive care that they need? >> look, doctors all across the state of texas are already frightened. they are terrified to provide abortion care. because here's what they face if they provide an abortion that violates the law. up to life in prison. hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. losing their medical license, which means losing their livelihood. and even in the circumstances, where the patient and the doctor together go to the court and ask the court for approval, and the court says yes, you can move forward and what happens? ken paxton, attorney general of texas, thumbs his nose at the courts order, and sends a letter to hospitals threatening the hospitals with criminal penalties to discipline the hospitals. expanding fear all across the state of texas. his point is to frighten people into even not providing abortions that have that fit within the exception even if a judge's already proved it is shameful. of course, this is going to have a chilling effect all across the state of texas. it's putting the lives of pregnant people all across texas in danger. >> it is noted in the initial filing that kate cox actually reached out to your organization because she received the fatal diagnosis on the exact same day that there were oral arguments held in zurawski the state of texas. we have covered that extensively here, and for folks at home, that is the case where 20 women are actually suing texas after being denied abortions during complicated pregnancies. you also filed that lawsuit. can you give us an update on that? in the connection between the two here. >> sure, my colleague argued that lawsuit in front of the texas supreme court just last week. and as she was arguing that in front of the texas supreme court that's when kate cox was getting her embryo synthesis result, that's what led to this filing of state lawsuit i want to connect the two lawsuits together. the state was telling ken paxton's lawyers were telling the state of texas, the texas supreme court last week, all of those 20 women, none of them have standing, none of them can prove to court and see relief. but if someone is in the middle of a crisis then they could file a lawsuit. which let me just be clear. 99% of people undergoing a medical crisis do not have time to stop, google, try to find a lawyer, put together legal papers. this took a large legal team to put this together and go seek court approval. we've already been going through this process for weeks. this cannot be the new normal that people undergoing medical crises now start to file these lawsuits. but even when she did that, even when she went through all of that, what does the state of texas do? it's trying to get her case out of court. and saying, even she doesn't have legal standing to sue. it's completely absurd, in the point is they don't want anyone to get abortions. regardless of what the exceptions say, they want no one. they want the exceptions to be effectively meaningless. >> marc herrin, please come back with any updates that you have, we are going to continue to stay on the story in the days and weeks to come. absolutely. thank you very much for a time. >> thank you. >> coming up next, folks, congress is coming up on its final week of 2023. after just a year of major dysfunction thanks to house republicans. and congressman benny thompson has something to say about all of that. he's gonna join me next to break down republicans proven inability to govern. and how worried he is about speaker mike johnson. that's next. that's next. alerts that help check. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. after switching to the farmer's dog we noticed so many 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week on a resolution to authorize an impeachment inquiry into president biden. let's be clear about the impeachment should be about. the cotitution that these member to protect it lays out when impeachment is necessary. article sectn four states, thident, vice president and all civil officers of the united states shall be removed from office -- for conviction of treason, barr bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. and yet, oversight -- have yet to produce any credible evidence that president biden committed treason or high crimes or misdemeanors. this is despite months of investigations. all house republicans have actually turned up our conspiracies. and then you have this week's nine count indictment of hunter biden on tax charges. and according to house oversight committee chair james comer. this is just another cover-up. >> my concern is that they may have indented hunter biden to protect him from -- in the house oversight committee on wednesday. >> aha, as my friend jake tapper was about to say. meanwhile, i do think it is republicans that are covering up. and actually covering up for insurrectionists. republican speaker mike johnson is actually in the process of releasing all video footage of the january 6th attack on the capitol earlier this, week he admitted that they would be blurring out the faces of participants. why? to protect them from prosecution. take a listen for yourself. >> we are going through a methodical process of releasing them. as quickly as we can. as you know, we have to blur some of the faces of persons who participated in the events of that day because we don't want them to be retaliated against. and to be charged by the doj. >> i want to say i am surprised, but none of us should be speaker johnson eagerly amplified the very delusions that left thousands of pro trump extremist to take up arms against the government on january 6th. and then president trump's direction, -- amicus brief endorsing a texas lawsuit to invalidate the 2020 election results in 40 states. even on the very morning of the insurrection, johnson was arguing against certifying election results. in the very house floor he and his colleagues would be forced to evacuate. members who propelled donald trump's election lies, they're now working overtime to sanitize the events of january 6th. the ones who slammed trump's impeachment as politically motivated are now grasping at straws to impeach biden. and it's all endorsed by the most powerful person in the body. the call y'all is literally coming from inside the house. joining me now, democratic congressman and former chairman of the january 6th select committee congressman benny thompson of the great state of mississippi. welcome to you, sir. it is good to see you. how concerned should the american people be about mike johnson in the fact that he is currently the speaker of the house? >> well, first of all, thank you, symone, for having me. i think they should be very concerned. when you hear a person who's third in line to the presidency of the united states basically saying that i will show you films of people breaking the law, but i will blur their faces so that the agency tasked with prosecuting individuals breaking the law can't do their job. people heard it. i was flabbergasted when i heard it. in this great country of ours someone in his position would basically say i will protect people who break the law. those records that he is sharing, those records are available are committee collected the majority of that information. and those individuals who we believe in the process of breaking the law, we shared it with doj. and we said, you go do your job. and now here we have the speaker saying i now have the tape, and i will protect those individuals who are breaking the law. i think it said. >> you know, congressman, the house is expecting a vote on authorizing an impeachment inquiry into president biden this upcoming week. what is your biggest concern about what this inquiry going forward mean for the country? >> well, it clearly states that were on the wrong track. this impeachment inquiry is after president biden sued. sun. there is no question hunter biden is joe biden's son. but to say that hunter biden's actions require us to now look into indicting the president of the united states, when those actions were looking at hunter biden happened while joe biden was not president of the united states he, had no official position. but we're gonna indict him on that. you've heard chairman comer on a number of occasions do all kinds of things. so, i think the public understands, hunter biden said, look. i will come to the committee. under oath, in the public. but i won't go in private. i want the public to see. and there's a saying in washington, truth is the best disinfectant. in sunshine is even better. . in a matter of trying to share with the public, they're now going underground, saying oh, no. just like we're gonna blue their faces of those persons who broke into the capitol on january 6th. we don't want the public to see what hunter biden is telling us. therefore, we want to go and blur that by doing it behind. in private. these are the maga republicans trying to get some kind of traction on legislating. let me tell you, symone, i've been around a good bio, i have never seen this institution so dysfunctional. the maga republicans have decided, well, we're gonna have it our way, regardless. we're not gonna worry about what's happening in israel. we're not gonna worry about what's happening in ukraine. we're not gonna even worry about what's happening on the border. you say you're interested on the border, but now you're pursuing impeachment. we have four days from a holiday recess. and all of a sudden, we're talking about impeachment? >> it to me, sir, it struggles to make sense. you know, house judiciary republicans, they're doing a lot. they've launched another inquiry into what they call collusion between the january six committee in fulton county district attorney, fani willis. your committee don't even grant the justice department request for transcripts. i find it hard to believe that you might have done differently for fani willis. what do you say to those allegation's in one could argue that it is just hanging on by our threat, our democracy, at this point. >> there is no question about it. we had an excellent team put together. we looked at a lot of things. i can assure you, anything that we found illegal in our work, we have referred it to the proper agencies for them to do their job. we have made referrals into georgia, we made referrals here in the district of columbia. we were not a criminal organization. we did not have the ability to do that. when we found wrongdoing, like we did, we made the necessary referrals. that's not doing anything other than what we are sworn to do as members of congress. we have taken an oath of office to do just that. so, we're following the law. i trust that those colleagues who are trying to somehow say that the committee didn't do right, if they'll read what the regulations require, i think they'd be shocked that we followed the regulations to a tee. and for that reason, in the end, it will be clear that those individuals who violated the law will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and a lot of that work was done by the january 6th select committee. >> people should be very clear, i think we only got to this point because of your work on the committee and your colleagues work. congressman benny thompson from mississippi, thank you very, very much. >> coming up next, folks, hunter biden's legal troubles, we talked about him. two misdemeanor tax charges last summer have now become nine tax charges, including three felony counts in a new indictment. my question is, what changed? plus, donald trump is again banned from attacking witnesses in his federal election interference trial. but this time, he is allowed to criticize 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oh yeah. we are following the order at weathertech.com and don't forget weathertech gift cards. developments in the five-year-long investigation into president biden's son hunter. this week, he was charged with nine tax offensives in california, including three felony counts. prosecutors allege that between 2016 and 2019, hunter biden chose not to pay at least one point $4 million to the u.s. government. arguing that he had access to funds, he instead spent on a lavish lifestyle. including thousands of dollars in payments to various women, clothing, and accessories, adult entertainment and that just a name a few. in some cases, the indictment, quotes from hunter's own member, a beautiful things. especially as relates to his drug use at the time. i think it's really important to note that hunter biden has now paid all the taxes that he owed. and his lawyer, abbe lowell, told my colleague, katie tur, that he believes the prosecution is political. >> after looking at all these matters for five years, and came to the decision that the appropriate resolution was to count misdemeanor for filing late and failure to pay on time. this is a 56-page document that was filed in court yesterday by the same prosecutor using the same evidence, none of which is new. nine counts. what happened between june 20th and yesterday? what changed was the enormous political pressure that was put on the u.s. attorney. >> former federal prosecutor shan wu joins me now. hi, shannon. i actually now, i think there's political arena, and there's a legal arena. i think abbe lowell, who's gonna make his political argument, if you will about the special counsel and if he was a registered republican or not, i don't know if i'm buying that piece. but i do have a similar question about what changed from june to now. what changed? >> embarrassment on the part of the justice department and the special counsel. they had an ultra high profile case, they were set to plead it out, and it went down in flames during the plea because the judge asked some very common sense questions, and the prosecution wasn't ready for it. so, now, it sounds like according to the attorneys in the letter they wrote, that the special counsel won't even meet with him, which is kind of the usual thing to do before indictment in standing off the indictment. even jack smith met with donald trump. >> exactly. now it really sounds like he's really just punishing hunter biden because out of an embarrassment of the plea deal gone bad, sure he has evidence, obviously biden did not deny not paying the taxes, but a lot of the indictment really reads salacious lee. quoting from the memo war, saying he spent money on everything except his taxes, most people who don't pay their taxes or spending their money on something. >> sounds like a lot of rich people i know, shannon. i talk to paul butler last night on a normal federal prosecutor, colleague of ours. i asked him about hunter biden's attorney's assertion that if his last name was not biden, then these charges would not have been brought. paul said that he agrees with that. what say you? do you agree? >> i agree with that too. when they bring the tax case they're looking to bring it to deter people. usually the high profile case. other huge amount of money, hundreds of millions or it's a very famous person. wesley snipes. pete rose. people like that. hunter biden in his own right is not a famous person. he's only well-known because of his last name. that's why would be with paul. so i have heard arguments that hunter biden only paid all the taxes back because the fbi came looking for it. this is what the people are saying, shannon, i'm telling you what they're saying. should that be taken into account? >> usually, it's not. most federal prosecutors who look at these kinds of cases, republican or democrat, they're gonna say this is not the kind of case you bring because the money has been paid back. i mean, sure, maybe if the fbi didn't come, if you can get an audit, you would've paid. but the important part for the irs is that they collect. >> the irs want their money, we all know they need their money. okay, can we talk a little bit about donald trump. and his federal election interference case. the d.c. circuit court upheld judge tanya chutkan's protective order against the former president. with some tweaks, frankly. they narrowed the parameters, so now under the new protective order, he can talk about jack smith wants to. does this do enough to protect the process? donald trump is a very huge microphone. whether some people are gonna. >> i think it's very hard to protect the process at all against trump as a defendant. he's already shown an ability to disrupt it. this is not a traditional gag order, which usually means everybody has to be quiet that example of the michigan shooter, the parents couldn't even come to the sentencing, that's a gag order. i think that we're making a little bit too much of the courts are making too much out of the constitutional issue here. of course, there are judges, they balance the first amendment with protecting the trial. but it is really just another sentencing, he shouldn't be talking this way. and they should simply gag the entire business. don't talk about the case. you can campaign without insulting jack smith. and i personally disagree with singling out jack smith this way. jack smith is not the attorney general the united states. he's a career prosecutor doing this. >> he was assigned to this job. exactly, he should be protected like any other career person. it's not like he's a candidate himself and he's a high-profile person to ask or be debated about. >> so, this is a pre-three judge panel that made this decision on judge chutkan's protective order. one of the judges, judge patricia millet. she wrote on behalf of the panel, they took donald trump's political speech very seriously. but said this, in this case, the general election is almost a year away, and will long post a the trial in this case. okay, shannon, what does that mean? they will not postponing the trial? what are they saying? what is trying to say? legalese for me. >> i think she suggesting that the trial will be conducted or resolved before we get around to the election. >> even though doesn't start till march? >> right. i don't know if that's correct, but that seems to be what this suggestion is. >> all right, shan wu, making it plain, thank you very much for your time. and the expertise you're not a lawyer are just using the talk talking points. coming up next, folks, georgia republicans, they just approved a new congressional map that creates a brand new majority black district. but they did it by destroying a different one. up next, why this map is probably headed right back to court, and what the final result could mean for the balance of power in congress, in 2024. don't go away. don't go away. clean freak's mist is three times more powerful, and it works on contact. clean freak, just freak, wipe, done. every day, more dog people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. on this show, we have made it a priority to provide updates on defeating cases across the country. for a couple of reasons. one, because the outcomes are consequential for next year's elections. to, preserving american democracy it matters. and our civil rights are absolutely at stake. let's bring us to georgia, where the state republican controlled legislature gave final passage to a new congressional redistricting plan. the plan approves a map that dismantles a district made up of mostly voters of color. essentially obliterating representative lucy -- district, to create a new court order black majority district. but what republicans just did in georgia would protect their majority in the state house as well, in the state senate and house ofoness. and it's identical to republicans in alabama trying to accomplish with the gerrymandered map just a few months ago. remember the alabama case? republicans were in complete defiance of what the supreme court order them to do. causing the supreme court to side with black voters and order a new congressional map. that map in alabama now has the potential to lead the state to elect two black representatives, for the first time in its history. it created a new majority black district. it's clear that georgia republicans didn't learn fm the mistakes of their alabama friends. and it seems as though that they are not the only ones who want history to repeat itself. because now in the redistricting case in louisiana, well they're saying some new reinforcements. the department of intervened in louisiana's case on thursday. to defend the voting rights act, the landmark law preventing discrimination and redistricting, and voting. we're section two comes from, look, y'all, these cases are all going to contribute to potentially remaking the congressional map for 2024. and even more? they are now our only hope to save the voice of the people. because in november, a federal court ruled that only the u.s. government and outside groups of citizens could sue to enforce provisions from the voting rights act. but all of the cases i just mentioned or citizens groups suing to protect their rights. suing for representation. y'all, the fact that it remains right now as that these kinds of cases, the work that these lawyers and individuals are doing across the country, they are, right now, the sole remedy, the sole remedy that the folks have. across the country. to right these wrongs the republican-led legislatures are causing. republican state legislatures, they have attempted to gerrymander these maps in order to not even benefit voters. this is truly just a benefit themselves. and to protect their seats. this is a poor practice, to be clear, it has been happening, this is not new. frankly, it will continue to happen if our court system in our judges do not stand just on the right side of democracy. good and impartial judges, they're the only thing standing between voters, the civil freedoms, and having their voices heard. coming up, y'all, is president biden getting the credit he deserves? the question i think it's important to ask this week, we learn the united states added 199,000 jobs in november. and the government announced more than six billion dollars for high speed rail projects. but will american voters feel indifference before they head to the ballot box november? we're gonna ask my political panel about it all, after the break. don't go away. k. don't go away. e not talking about practice? no. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we've been talking about practice for too long. -word. -no practice. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. i mean, we're not talking about a game! cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. we're travelling all across america, talking to people about their hearts. ooh, take this exit. how's the heart? i feel like it's good. you feel like it's good? how do you know when it's time to check in on your heart? 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i've got a political panel that will join me now. -- is here, the host of the shermichael singleton show on sirius xm. and -- it's also, here she's the president and ceo of vote for latino, and nbc contributor. welcome to you both. people, just enjoyed a look at my instagram after this segment, and show you his plants. very concerning. i want to talk about the president and these numbers. this just came through, and i think we need to discuss. the president of pan just resigned actually. and this is a note from, we've got breaking news right now. and the university of pennsylvania president, liz mcgill, has just resigned. she is one of three top university presidents who appeared for a committee hearing on the hill this week regarding the rise of antisemitic incidents amid the israel-hamas war. all these presidents are facing condemnation after appearing to sidestep questions on whether students calling for the genocide of jews violates their school's code of conduct. the answers, drew clear condemnation from everyone from at least -- to the white house. and congress now launching an investigation into the universities. now we have one of those presidents, again, the president of pen has now resigned. maria teresa, i watch the hearing. it was not good. >> it was so hard to watch. the fact that i'm here today incongruence, in alignment with representative asking those questions, she and i are not aligned. she oftentimes's book and sinker with trump. she had the wherewithal to say, denounce genocide. that should not be hard. what is hard is opening up your campus to have real conversations. calm conversations. because the only way we're gonna be able to get out of this polarized moment that we're living in america is to make sure that we're talking to our neighbor. if the university campus cannot have a conversation that does not include insults and threatening behavior, then we're in far deeper trouble than we thought we were. >> shermichael, it seemed to me that the president's -- they didn't do prep. before they came. secondly, they were trying to parse what may be was legal language and they were trying to answer illegal academic question when it was really a political question. it was a political question, a people question that they did not answer. they didn't come with the second part. the second part is, this levitate our lawyers wanted to say. but let me tell you what we believe it or university. and the aftermath of the hearings, they all did that, in their individual ways. with the president of m.i.t., we haven't heard from him. they've been silent at m.i.t. right now. internal conversation. we saw a video from the president of pen, we saw a number of statements from harvard. president gay of harvard she did an interview with the crimson, where she said i'm sorry, basically that i fail the student body. but it seemed to be, at least for the president of pen, too little too late. >> i think. so maybe a little bit too late for some of the others. all three of us have worked in crisis management before. particularly on the media side. thursday was reported by several outlets from the hill, yahoo news, nbc, cnbc, that penn lost at 100 million dollar donation thursday. from an alumni because of the statements from the president. i have a feeling that you're going to see another powerful, wealthy alum from harvard, to perhaps m.i.t., they're also going to say, we are not giving a single dime to the universities because we do not like the way the presidents are managing the institutions in this very, very difficult cultural time. and i think the boards can look at those things and, say okay, it's one thing to say we want to side with one group of students versus another, but when you start impacting dollars, the board's gonna say you gotta go. >> it's not about siding with one group over another, i think it should be about -- >> humanity. >> i don't disagree with that. >> i think the biggest challenge, they came in with legalese. watching that hearing, all we could think of was it's literally former president clinton asking what is the definition of -- that's all i can think of. at the same time, saying how cringeworthy. if we cannot have these conversations among people. that race was to be asking these questions in university campuses. you're supposed to be bringing people together, bring them together and saying, it might make me uncomfortable, but i need to be able to have a conversation with the other side. that's how we start building rapport and community. in an america that is so multi cultural, simone, the only way we're gonna get past this polarization is to be in conversation. and we have to be able to denounce any sort of hatred, every step of the way. in the leadership, the president of harvard or not doing, it then what can we expect of the faculty? what can we expect of the student body? >> i will put this out really quickly. michael bash loss, a historian for msnbc, he tweeted this out. one in five young americans think the holocaust is a myth. >> i saw that, see, first of all it also -- in school we should focus everything on war to end right after. it black history in one little week and spent all these weeks on the war of 1812. that's another story. i think it is important when we talk about having the conversations, we need to be able to be honest. what the presidents, i guess feel like they could do for congress earlier this week say, hey, calling for genocide of jewish people is bad. it is not acceptable. and neither is islamophobia, neither is let's have a conversation. i just think we're in this place where people don't want to offend anybody. >> simone, i don't know why, how hard is it to say if you're antisemitic it is wrong. if you're islamophobic, it is wrong. there were innocent israelis who were killed. they're now innocent palestinians who were being killed as a result of this conflict. what is hard about saying that? it's not complicated. it's a new wants that younger people who are one day read the world need to understand. >> i think they need to have both of y'all, we ain't got time. it'll be available to advise you for -- thank you both very, very much. and thank you out there for watching symone on this saturday, i am symone sanders-townsend, and for more of this show, including shermichael's plants, go to instagram the site for known as twitter and tiktok, but don't go anywhere. because politics nation with the great reverend al sharpton will start right after this break. er thi break. each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? 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