Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240702 : comparemela.com

it is 4:00 new york. it is not every day that a former president of the united states is in a courthouse. much less as a defendant in the case that threatens to bring down the entire brand that he used to propel himself into office in the first place. today, donald trump was back in court in the $250 million civil fraud trial in new york. before walking in, trump lashed out as he so often does at the judge, the trial, at the new york attorney general who brought the lawsuit. he did not mention judge engoron's clerk, who has been a frequent target of his, he remains under a gag order that prohibits him from talking about court staff. inside the courtroom, accounting expert eli bartov took the stand and testified that in his expert opinion the attorney general's claims of a years long pattern of fraud, manipulating the values of trump's real estate assets were baseless. there is no evidence whatsoever for any accounting fraud, he said. dold trump was reportedly visibly pleased. but there were moments of tension. abc news reports that he was testifying about trump's use of disclaimers in his financial statements, state attorney kevin wallace interjected sayings is pure speculation fromomeone they hired to say whatever it is thnt. still on the witnessbox, he began yelling at wallace, about the comment as trump sat watching a few feet away. you make up allegations that never existed, bartov shouted. i'm here to tell the truth. you ought to be ashamed of yourselves for talking like that. bartov is the second to last witness to testify for the defense. the last witness, donald trump himself. he's expected to take the stand on monday in his own defense, in what could turn into another dramatic day in court. here is how nbc describes the last time he went on the stand. trump's testimony last month quickly went off the rails as he hurled attacks against the judge, lawyers in the case, who he decried unfair. dodged questions and repeatedly we on tangents. trump also into heated exchanges with the judge from the stand after the judge for giving unresponsive answers. he warned this isn't a political rally and that's where we start today with russ buttener, former top official at the justice department, andrew weissmann, and charlie sykes. walk us through what it is we saw today in court. >> i think this is their star witness, the first witness that the trump defense put up that tried to poke any substantial holes, i think, in the massive trove of documents that prove out this case. this witness wasn't a surprise to the judge, certainly. he filed two lengthy affidavits in this case earlier this year. he was deposed by the attorney general, that was all part of the court record before the judge ruled that the trumps had committed fraud that the ag approved that part of their case. and the substance of what he said today and what he said in those affidavits is that basically that they're taking the wrong approach, that the attorney general is holding him to a standard of following generally accepted accounting principles. the professor says that's not necessary for these sort of financial statements. the attorney general taking issue with the fact that they withheld proposals they had that showed the properties they had were of lower value than what they represented on the form. the professor says appraisals aren't required to be part of these sort of things so the fact they withheld them does not represent fraud. he also, i think, notably said that in cases where donald trump valued properties as if he had unbridled use to use them for anything you wanted to, in fact, he had great restrictions on them, that that wasn't a fraud to withhold that, that he was entitled to take and professor's words the long view and assume he could get lost, changed, for regulated apartmenapartments, h get variances to build as many houses as he wanted to in aberdeen and that's okay. this expert tries to poke holes in the entire case, but i think it is important to remember that the judge, the fact finder, has already seen all this material and now is part of the decision he issued against the trumps back in september. >> i wonder, this exchange, andrew, from the state attorney kevin wallace saying this is pure speculation from someone they hired to say whatever it is they want,ha does an expert -- an expert witness like this, like bartov, what is the purpose, what are they supposed to bring the defense? >> well, i have to say, the reports of this sort of back and forth between the state's attorney and the expert witness is not the model for what you expect in court either from lawyers or from the expert witness. those sort of side comments and sniping really should not be occurring, so this is sort of not the high road. but that is really up to the state that has the burden here to either undermine the testimony and to bring out facts, or to -- they have a rebuttal case and they can put on additional evidence. i have to say i'm quite skeptical of the testimony from the expert about the long view, where it would include going against stated, documented things that donald trump had committed to in the deeds and the agreements to say i'm just assuming all of that isn't true, without revealing all of that to the banks as to how he got to that appraisal figure. also it isn't totally appropriate for an expert to testify about whether there is or is not fraud, what is in the head of the people who prepared these, as opposed to giving expert testimony about what the rules are in his view. so, this was sort of an interesting day, it will be interesting i think mostly to see what, if anything, the state does to counter this evidence in their rebuttal case, because they have a chance to put on additional evidence when donald trump finishes his testimony on monday. >> russ, there was a lot that was of disclaimers aached to trump's financial statements, according to abc news. bartov in his testimony said trump's use of disclaimers functioned just like tarni from the surgeon general on a box of cigarettes. the accounting expert said that trump's disclaimers clearly flagged his lenders that they should conduct their own due diligence regarding the figures rather than rely on them at face value, to make sure i'm understanding the arguments here, the bank was warned, it was their fault they were defrauded? >> that does seem to be the point. i think that's exactly right. and it is a strange point to get to because the issue here is not that there was not as donald trump called it over and over again a worthlessness statement, that he says makes this document a red flag that this document is entirely worthless, that's not the issue. the issue at hand here is that they withheld so much information from their lenders. this case really comes down to two numbers. how much he -- what was net worth and how much cash did he have on hand. and he asserted the certain levels of that when he got the loans, very favorable rates, basically saying i don't need this money and then every year he had to reassert that. and you see in the documents of this case, and the underpinningings of it, that as his -- over the years, as his money from entertainment, from the apprentice, and from celebrity licensing deals dropped off, his businesses went cash flow negative and every year they had to find new ways to sort of patch that hole to reach that threshold and he's withholding stuff from his lenders and from his accountants in the creation of these documents. and that's the issue of it, is not being forth coming with all the things that would lower the value, and there is one example i think that is phenomenal where they claimed that they had access to a cash -- to all the cash in the business in which he had a passive investment. and that patched up that one number, how much cash he had on hand. but he didn't. to know that, you have to have the partnership agreement. professor bartov says they could have gotten the partnership agreement and reviewed it and decided that themselves. i don't know at what point you get beyond due diligence, being careful as a lender, to where you're conducting a full fledged investigation with almost subpoena power to figure out where your customer might be misleading you. i think that's the sort of nub of this thing. >> speak to that point and the argument that we might hear from prosecutors in that regard. >> absolutely. i think this is where it is important to know what the law is. the law in new york, with respect to the causes of action on trial, which is causes of action two through seven, cause of action one there has already been liability, what differentiates the first cause of action from all these others, the first cause of action you do not need to show intent and you do not need to show reliance or materiality. so, it was easier for there to be summary judgment and that already has been decided by the judge. for these counts, it is not necessary for the state to prove reliance by deutsche bank. or an insurer, any bank, that is not part of the crime. and so, there was a lot of back and forth about that issue. but that's not something that is necessary. it is necessary for the representations to be false, for them to be knowingly false, and for there to be something material, in other words, it can't be something like what is your favorite color and you said it is blue, and it turns out it is green. no one cares about that. but these are the things that are material and the burden is not on the bank to have to do forensic examination to find out if you're being lied to, they're entitled to rely on written statements and really good argument for that is why else require that you fill these out and give them to a bank. we all do that when we seek a loan from a bank. we know that this is material that needs to be truthful and that a bank is entitled to rely on. the fact that the bank could have figured out that these were in fact not accurate is not really a burden that they have. and so i think you're going to hear a lot of arguments about that when this sums up from both sides. >> charlie, outside of bartov's testimony, that exchange with wallace, the big headline was that donald trump chose to show up, given that he has built his brand on victimhood. i wonder as an astute political observer, was showing up today about victimhood, was it about defiance, what was the objective? >> i think all of those things. this is very much on brand, but i am struck by the fact that donald trump continues to show up in person, at this particular trial, when he's got a lot of other things. he's a very busy man as he reminds us occasionally, he's running for president of the united states, and yet there is something about this trial that has really focused his mind and he takes the -- he takes the threat very, very seriously. with all of these cases, he's playing to several audiences. he's already lost this case, the judge issued a summary judgment, he's setting himself up for appeal and there is always the court of public opinion that i am being persecuted, this is completely unfair, this is completely bogus. and, of course, that's what today was about. but by showing up once again, at the trial, i think it underlines the threat that this poses to something that donald trump cares about, perhaps even more deeply than his political ambitions, which is, of course, his money and his business. >> i'm curious if you have the same read as charlie, i also want to talk about what we can expect next week. we know trump is around incredibly volatile witness. why would the defense want him on the stand? talk about that calculation. >> i think andrew would be better qualified talking about the calculation from an attorney's point of view. from donald trump's point of view, it is because he's running the defense. most of this defense, what there has been, feels a little like a pro se litigant case. his sons come on and talk about what an artist he is and how great he's done in reimagining the new york city skyline, things nice for a biography or character witness at a sentencing hearing, but have no pertinence to the facts of the case at all. you can see his id running through this thing, where he has to be sort of made whole one way or another. and this has been the core of his identity, long before he ever talked about running for politics. it is important to remember that he spent decades lying about how much money his father gave him, just in order to seem like the things he had he had done entirely on his own. that is the pattern of his life, and this, like, goes right to the heart of that, and a large judgment could really issue a potentially crippling blow to the businesses that he has left. >> talk about the pros and cons of having him on the stand. do you think it is his idea? >> yes. absolutely. i think from a legal perspective this makes no sense at all. he's already testified, the idea he's going to get back on the stand. he either was credible to judge engoron or he was not. i suspect that there are aspects of his testimony that judge engoron will reject and it is really worth pointing out a legal point about that, which is that the trial judge is entitled to assess credibility. and it is extremely hard for an appellate court to overlook that and overturn it. so by testifying, he is very much giving the trial judge a lot of ammunition that is very hard to overturn because they -- the trial judge makes findings of fact about the credibility of witnesses. so i think that to charlie's point this is -- to russ' point also, this is playing to a very different audience that is not in that courtroom. i don't think that this is legally the best strategy, but it may be politically the best strategy. >> is it politically the best strategy, charlie? doesn't it come with some risk given who it is we're talking about? >> well, it always comes with risk and i think that donald trump right now is feeling that it is worth it. he's facing 91 felony counts, he's facing this fraud trial, a federal judge has already found that he was liable for rape and as donald trump is quick to point out, he's still leading in the polls. there is a certain amount of arrogance here that i can get away with this, i can do or say anything. and i will not play a political price. now, this is, of course, the big question of 2024, is there some point at which this catches up with him, is there some point where accumulative weight of all the charges and the lies begin to get some traction. even among republicans. we don't know, but he certainly seems to be calculating that he is above the -- look, a lot of his legal strategy, right now, has been to throw things up against the wall, including his motions to say that he should be absolutely immune from any sort of accountability, any sort of prosecution. this is what he is testing, that none of the laws of political gravity apply to him and i think you see that on display today. in multiple venues. >> russ, thank you so much for starting us off today. andrew and charlie, you're sticking with me. when we come back, the ex-president makes a final hail mary in hopes of derailing the election interference case by going to a d.c. appeals court setting the stage for a battle that could end up in front of the supreme court and delaying his trial. plus, the republican candidates who aren't donald trump engaged in antidemocratic battle royal, trying to shine daylight between them and the indicted front-runner. ultimately showing us just how unserious they are about beating him. later, a lawsuit in texas that shows us just where things stand in a post rural america, a woman asking a judge for permission to get an abortion. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. do not go anywhere. hite house" continues after this do not go anywhere (wife) seriously? 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it works after your detergent to fight deep odors 3 times better than detergent alone. i love that. try new tide fabric rinse. donald trump is appealing district court judge tanya chutkan's denial of his motion to dismiss his d.c. indictment on presidential immunity and constitutional grounds. you'll recall last week the judge said that trump's position as president did not give him license to commit crimes. she wrote, quote, defendants for your service as commander in chief did not bestow on him the divine right of kings to evade the criminal accountability that governs his fellow citizens. trump's appeal was expected but sets up a fight that could reach all the way up to the supreme court. it raises a very important question. could this impact the start of the trial, scheduled currently for march 4th? now less than three months away. trump's lawyers filed a motion for all district court proceedings to be paused until the immunity issue and trump's claims of double jeopardy can be resolved. joining us, frank figliuzzi. andrew is back with us. is this just another way trump can try to push the trial back? >> yes. absolutely. this is a very much anticipated motion, first it is directed to the district judge and then depending what she rules, if she denies it will be directed to the court of appeals. he's seeking not just a stay of the trial, the march 4th trial, but also seeking a stay of any proceedings at the trial court level. in other words, picking a jury, motion practice, he wants a full stop to that. and, indeed in his motion papers, he says i'm going to now behave as if that has been granted. that is certainly not how you behave as a litigant. i was fairly shocked by that statement. and there is two aspects for people to keep an eye on. one is this idea of a stay of the trial date, which i don't think any court needs to reach right now. because they can decide the merits of this. but they're asking for a stay of anything involved in the litigation. my own quick view on that is if you wait for months to file that kind of motion and you receive discovery, and you've taken advantage of the proceedings, it is a little late in the day to suddenly say, i shouldn't have to have all of the imposition of the litigation process. if you really felt that way, you should have filed this on august 2nd, the day after you're indicted. >> he's so clearly trying to delay accountability. >> yeah, it is interesting that the thing that his legal team seems to be the quickest at is filing an appeal and everything else seems to be just dragging. but it is also worth repeating, what is this appeal about? it is about the judge saying you don't enjoy the divine right of kings. >> yes. >> that's what he's appealing. he's saying i think i do. we fit this into the larger security and risk picture, which is continual attack on the rule of law and the judiciary, saying they're coming after me, i'm the victim, i shouldn't even be prosecuted here, and as andrew pointed out really significantly, he's going a step further. everything should stop, we're not going to file motions, nobody can -- discovery should stop, nobody can do anything, not even a hearing, pretrial, nothing. so, yes, this is a delay tactic. >> if this were to end up before the supreme court, what do you think happens then? >> i do think on the merits that donald trump is going to succeed. it is a somewhat complicated issue as to whether you rule the way judge chutkan did, which is that presidential immunity does not apply ever to a criminal case or a more nuanced view, which is that at least in this circumstance it doesn't apply. but even way, i don't think that donald trump will have the five votes that he needs, but where i'm sort of very focused is on this issue of a stay, whether this litigating all of this will delay the march 4th date because de facto donald trump will win if he just manages to put this off for several months, because, remember, it takes a while to empanel a jury. this is why judge chutkan now decided to empanel a jury so she can find 12 impartial jurors. that's why it is hard to get that back on track. so, this litigation, the thing that you're focusing on is a really the whole ball game because it really is the one thing that could delay the d.c. trial. >> well, to the point about judge chutkan, trump'sawrs write this, all current deadlines must be held in obey ans until -- this motion is resolved. president trump will proceed based on that understanding and the authority set forth here and absent further order of the court. i don't know if i have you, andrew, but i wonder how you anticipate judge chutkan will respond to that. >> i think she is going to deny the stay of the litigation. i think there is lots of reasons, the fact that it is a criminal case, the fact that she could find that the litigation is frivolous, which is also an exception for granting a stay. and the issue of staying the trial as opposed to the litigation is one that she really doesn't have to reach right now. the trial is not until march 4th and so that's really an issue that can be kicked down the road. >> i'm just so struck by the fact, frank, that he keeps coming back to this idea of cloaking himself in the power of the presidency. and the danger that that means, not just for what has already transpired but what is forth coming. >> he's already forecasted and told us just recently that, yes, i probably will abuse my power, but only on day one. all the setup, planning going on by his teams of people planning for the next administration indicate he plans to be not just a strong executive as people say, but rather an authoritarian dictator type president. >> just on day one. andrew weizman, thank you as always. frank, you're sticking with me. up next, most of the republican presidential primary candidates are pretending the front-runner doesn't exist, which turns into a ugly wrestling match for second place, even suggesting the party isn't extreme enough. that story when we come back. g the party isn't extreme enough that story when we come back so now, do you have a driver's license? 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can it be treated? stop typing, and start talking. it could be a medical condition called peyronie's disease, or pd. and it could be treated without surgery. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today. hey, grab more delectables. and build a treatment plan you know, that lickable cat treat? de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat. and the fact is that, you know, all these other folks should be considering why they're still in the race. they're not taking on the front-runner. they should be asking themselves what is their path to beating donald trump or is the path they're trying to beat either donald trump's cabinet or to the 2028 race? >> say what you will about former new jersey governor chris christie, but at least he's willing to say out loud what the rest of us are thinking. that at this point the republican primary for president isn't so much about beating donald trump, as it is about bizarre over the top one-upmanship, all in the pursuit of a silver medal. case in point, last night's debate, christie aside, ron desantis, nikki haley, vivek ramaswamy appeared to be engaged in a political version of the game "operation," getting as close to substantive criticisms of trump without touching the sides, without having to offend him or his maga base. their strategies appeared to be similar, find an area where donald trump wasn't radical enough, and pump the volume up to 11. for ramaswamy, the conspiracies, stuff like january 6th was an inside job, the racist great replacement theory is real, and even the 2016 presidential election was stolen from trump. even though he won that one. for haley, it was culture wars, for her, florida's don't say gay bill banning instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in certain grades wasn't homophobic enough, suggesting she would extend it further. and for desantis, it was that donald trump didn't go as far as he should have on firings like anthony fauci, christopher wray, building the wall on deporting immigrants. the iowa caucuses, remember, they are a month from next friday. then we get a real idea of why the candidates stand. let's bring in donna edwards, charlie and frank are still with us. charlie, first of all, what did you take away from last night? what do you think of this field after watching that performance? >> well, i'm glad that chris christie is still in the race. he's the only person willing to say the things he is saying. he's the only one pointing out how manifestly unfit donald trump is. and he's the only one who is actually running against donald trump. your clip is, you know, it was very, very appropriate. if the other candidates are running for president of the united states, they need to go through donald trump and at some point you need to run against somebody who is the -- who is so dominant in the polls. they're not willing to do that. so i thought his performance was the most interesting. vivek made himself the most obnoxious person in america, the only role he was playing was to try to throw up as much bs as possible to distract all the other candidates. but it is interesting that the implicit message you got from both ron desantis and nikki haley was that there is no longer any centrist or moderate republican base they need to appeal to. everything is about hitting the hot button issues, checking the boxes of the most extreme elements of the party, as if unless you win them, there is no path. and, by the way, mathematically, that may be true. but if you do not appeal to swing voters, if you do not appeal to moderate voters, and you are unwilling to take on donald trump, why exactly are you in this race? that was a great question that chris christie asked. >> i agree. and, donna, you know, they were not willing, christie aside, to prosecute the case against donald trump. no big surprise there. there were some minor cracks, a line for nikki haley about this trump economy that everybody said was so great and then talked about the national debt during trump's time in office, there was some question from desantis about whether or not trump's age is a factor here, not his acuity, which i think would have been more interesting to go after, but his age, kept talking about father time, no one can deny father time. and yet the truth is that they were not willing to go for the jugular on what actually defines his fitness or lack there of for the presidency. >> well, i absolutely agree. i think what happened is that the little bit of critique that you get from nikki haley and from ron desantis is so milquetoast that it doesn't really go with the things that really make a prospective trump presidency the most outrageous, his attacks on democracy, his misogyny, his homophobia, what he would do at theborder. you describe them as going for a silver medal, that implies you want to get the gold, i think it is more like a participation trophy. they're showing up and it is not clear to me they're showing up because they want to win the race, they're not doing anything that will at all take down donald trump. his numbers remain high. he remains popular in the republican party. and they have decided they're going get to -- continue to run to the right, which would never enable them if they were to win the nomination to win over that important middle in the country. their views are so far afield from where the american public are. >> frank, there were so many bizarre moments during the debate itself, but there was a -- what i thought was a bizarre moment that happened after, megyn kelly was doing post show analysis with nikki haley and they had an exchange i want to get your thoughts on. >> if you look at the fact that they're teaching gender pronouns -- making our military men and women take gender pronoun classes, you would be surprised. >> the army survey said only 5% it is wokeness the reason they're not joining. they say amazingly because i know you're a military family, the number one reason they're not joining is fear of death, and the second one is fear of post traumatic stress disorder, like, stress, they're afraid of stress and the third is they don't want to miss their friends and family, which i think as a -- where are the old grizzled military people? >> patriots, right? my husband joined after 9/11. it was that love of country, that sacrifice. >> i'm glad that your face was the same as mine. >> yeah, here we are with more attacks on our institutions. this time the military, and this portrayal that the military of the united states of america is somehow not as tough as it needs to be. it is the finest fighting force on the planet. certainly the best equipped. and proven successful under battle conditions. so, if part of running for office these days means attacking the military, attacking the fbi, attacking the doj, and then competing on a debate stage about who is more hate-filled toward transamericans, we can cast aside any hope that somehow the temperature would be dialed down for the next administration. >> that is exactly right. donald trump may not have been in the room, but trumpism was splashed across that stage, the meanness with which they spoke to one another, the idea you had ron desantis on stage saying my actual problem with donald trump is i don't think he went far enough on his authoritarian tendencies. it tells you it doesn't matter who wins, there will be trumpism in the dna of this party. >> this is not exactly breaking news. we had an illustration of how fundamentally and thoroughly donald trump transformed the republican party. yesterday was really bizarre. i started the morning by sitting down with liz cheney, the daughter of dick cheney who was warning about the threat that donald trump poses. the way in which he might have used the military to overthrow the election. that's in the morning. and then the evening you watch this debate over republican candidates in the first 15 minutes did not even mention donald trump, with the exception of chris christie, do not even talk about what donald trump attempted to do after the 2020 election and what he might do after the 2024 election whether he wins or loses in terms of authoritarianism, the abuse of our institutions, or the fomenting of political violence. you have on the same day that liz cheney,can credentials go back for decades, is sounding this alarm of the existential threat that donald trump and the republican party face and then you get that clown show at the end of the day, you know, what a gap between what the republican party used to be, and what it is today. and you really have that on display. >> donna, we learned earlier this afternoon cnn will hold two more dates in iowa and new hampshire. anything that could get any of the candidates who are not chris christie on that stage to say anything resembling a critique of donald trump? >> it doesn't feel like it. in fact, if the calculation was that somehow this field was going to be so winnowed out by the debates that we have had thus far, and then that would lead to a real head to head contest, that could be true. but not when you're 43 points ahead of the other guys. i still see no incentive, donald trump to show up any more than he's shown up in any of these other debates and as long as they're unwilling to take him on and he gives them fodder every day, then i just don't really see that needle changing. the most it will change is whether nikki haley is second or ron desantis is second. and chris christie is creeping up. but not that 43% gap. >> large gap indeed. donna edwards, thank you for being with us. charlie and frank are staying with me. when we come back, an alarming number of threats facing lawmakers on capitol hill. what is being done to protect them. we're going talk about that next. otect them we're going talk about that next ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. a new report documents threats facing lawmakers have increased precipitously in the wake of the war between israel and hamas. according to axios, house democrats are launching a task force on lawmaker security in response to a rise in threats against members of congress. axios learned in a dear colleague letter sent to house democrats on monday, house minority leader hakeem jeffries wrote that the move is in response to growing security concerns for members. house administration committee ranking member joe morell will lead the task force, saying that it will document the experiences confronting members, staff and families. charlie and frank are back. frank, i'm sure this does not surprise you, how much does it alarm you? >> it does alarm me. it is long past time for a top to bottom review of how we secure our lawmakers. we know that the capitol police department is grossly understaffed. they're catching up rapidly, but not fast enough and there has been too much focus on capitol hill itself and not the much softer targets of the district offices and the events that lawmakers hold in their constituent areas. those are vulnerable targets and there should be security plans for each and every one of these events. i know it sounds awful to think that we may have some kind of constraints between us and our lawmakers that we have elected, we want to have access to them, but it has got to be done safely. the fbi director warned that us that the battle between hamas and israel increased threats to an almost unprecedented point and it is not about isis or al qaeda or hamas attacking us on the homeland, it is about that lone actor who is inspired and finds the softest target. >> you always say that, and charlie back in october, we saw republican members of the house, they were receiving death threats, just for voting against jim jordan for speaker. is this -- is this the new normal? >> well, it is not normal, but it is the new reality that we're living in. and i think the situation is even worse than we have been discussing. the threat is not just members of congress. it is to -- it is at every level of government. the kind of threat is the kind after abuse that school board members are getting, it is the kind of threats that city clerks are getting, that election officials, the election poll workers are experiencing, as the temperature is increased, as there are people out there who continue to engage in this apocalyptic rhetoric that the other side is not wrong on the issues, they are dangerous, they are enemies of the republic and that this is, as donald trump said, this is our final battle. this would be the moment, again, i feel like i said this several times, when the grown-ups would, to the extent there are grown-ups who matter anymore, would say really let's dial down the rhetoric. we live in incredibly dangerous times. as frank says, you don't need 10,000 people with guns, you just need a handful of people to change the -- to really destroy the fabric of our political culture. but that's not happening. and as we go into 2024, everything will ramp up. so i think the democrats are doing the right thing by having this task force, but i guess my question is, why just the democrats? why did this become a partisan issue? why is it something that both parties are not convening, recognizing that this is a threat against america, this is a threat against our institutions, it is not a threat against one political party. >> well, i think that, to answer that rhetorical question, is in part because we know that donald trump was a large initiator of the threats, the bullying, the intimidation, the way he would turn his attention to someone, you have multiple accounts of people saying i knew the right thing do was to impeach donald trump, but i was worried about the safety of myself and my family. >> there is a solid line clearly between trump's rhetoric and the rhetoric of those around him and violent acts. it no longer matters when they say, we can't possibly anticipate the acts of mentally unstable people. well, actually, yes, you can, because we now have case after case, arrest after arrestarrest violence after violence that where people watch what you said, listen to what you said, and acted out on it. and so, yeah, the fact the democrat party is the one convening the security meeting is because they're getting briefed on threats to them, and theres crickets coming from the other side of the house. they're not getting briefed because there's no threats against them. we've got to sneak in a quick break. quick break. ♪♪ if you're on medicare, remember, the annual enrollment period is here. the time to choose your coverage begins october 15th and ends december 7th. so call unitedhealthcare and see how you can get more of what matters, with our broad range of plans including an aarp medicare advantage plan from unitedhealthcare. it can combine your hospital and doctor coverage with part d prescription drug coverage, and more, all in one simple plan. these plans are made to support your whole health with $0 annual physical exams, $0 lab tests and $0 preventive care like mammograms and colonoscopies. and you'll get more for your medicare dollar with $0 copays on most covered dental services a $0 eye exam and an allowance for eyewear plus $0 copays on hundreds of prescriptions, at the pharmacy or by mail. now's the time to look at unitedhealthcare's variety of plans. so give us a call to learn more about coverage options in your area. with our right plan promise, you have our commitment to helping you find the right plan for your needs. and to help make life with medicare simpler, you'll get the all-in-one member ucard. only from unitedhealthcare, the ucard is your unitedhealthcare member id and much more. show your ucard when you visit your primary care provider, dentist or eye doctor, or fill a prescription at the pharmacy. and use it to access medicare advantage's largest national network of providers. you can count on unitedhealthcare to help you get the care you need, when you need it. enrollment ends december 7th. now's the time to learn more about america's most chosen medicare advantage plans and how they can open doors to a simpler healthcare experience with the all-in-one ucard. call unitedhealthcare today about the only medicare advantage plans with the aarp name and get more of what matters to you. (music ends) today two senators are taking a significant step towards picking up the pieces of their colleague, tommy tuberville's, military blockade. new bipartisan legislation to ensure back pay for those officers who had been caught in the cross fire is being proposed by senators mike rounds and joe manchin. tuberville lifted his blockade on tuesday on nearly all military promotions he had held up for nearly ten months. this new benefit would provide the pay for their new rank 30 days after their appointment was put on the senate calender as well as better retirement benefits. charlie, what a mess. >> and why did it take so long to resolve this? this was not about anything to actually make the men and women to hold them hostage for his political dispute with the biden administration, never made any sense. and i guess the question we have to ask, what was accomplished? what damage was done? and why did it take so long for the senators including mitch mcconnell to take him aside and say, tommy, this is the dumbest thing any member of this body has been doing this year? and that's saying a lot. >> i've got about 30 seconds left, but speak to the morale issue. >> make no bones about it, this is a national security concern. the morale impact is lasting. all the folks who want to -- there's a ripple effect as there would be in any huge bureaucracy. the general doesn't get promoted, and no one else under him can move. either families are not transferred, it's a mess and it impacts fighting, morale and readiness and impacts our perception we don't have the leadership in place. >> what a treat. thank you both for spending some time with us. up next a first of its kind hearing today on what is like now in a post-roe america. deadline white house after this quick break. e america. deadline white house after this quick break. -see? -ah. 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(vo) for a limited time, turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. not just for pregnant women but for all americans today starts a new era of very, very, very, very big government, very intrusive government. >> hey, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. i'm elycia menendez in for nicolle wallace. and that was our colleague rachel maddow on the night of the prediction congress would strip roe. she was right. over the years republicans have invented new ways to assert control over a woman's private decisions. it's led to this. kate cox was 20 weekwise a baby that will not survive, had to beg a judge today for a desperately necessary abortion in order to preserve her health, to keep her baby from suffering, and to enable her to have children in the future. let that sink in. a woman in a medical emergency had to beg a court for health care due to texas' anti-abortion laws. and to be clear it is in fact an emergency. kate cox's attorney noted in the hearing today her health is so fragile that in the time since the case was filed on tuesday and the hearing today, katha gone to the emergency room for a fourth time. the judge granted her request nong on the verge of tears that, quote, the idea that ms. cox wants desperately to be a parent and this law might cause her to lose that ability is shocking and would be a genuine miscarriage of justice. it remains to be seen if the state of texas will fight the judge's order today as they have every time the court in that state has sided to protect women and their health and bily atonom. but in a statement today the texas attorney general ken paxton issued what can only be a threat to ke and her doctors. quote, the temporary restraining order granted by the travis county district judge purporting to allow an abortion to proceed will not insulate hospitals, doctors, or anyone else from civil or criminal liability for violating texas' abortion laws. this includes first degree felony prosecutionsnd civil penalties of not less than $100,000 forac violation. the order does not enjoin actions brought by private citizens,or does it prohibit a district nor county attorney from enforcing texas' pre-roe abortion laws. that is the top lawyer in the state of texas threatening a private citizen in a medical crisis, putting a bounty on the head of her doctors. so you can get a clear understanding of what that would mean forher, this is what kate has said about the horror shes currently living through. quote, it is not a matter of if i will have to say good-bye but when. i doot want to continue the pain and suffering that has plagued this preancy. i do not want to put my body through the risks of continuing this pregnancy. i do not want to continue until my baby dies in my belly or i have to deliver a stillborn baby or one where life will be measured in hours or days full of medical tubes and machinery. i do not want my baby to arrive in this world only to watch her suffer a heart attack or suffocation. i desperately want the chance to try for another baby and want to access the medical care now that gives me the best chance at another baby. that's where we start this hour with molly dwayne. she's the attorney for kate cox. also with us the president and ceo of reproductive freedom for many. plus with me at the table host of "fast politics" podcast and vanity fair special correspondent. molly dwayne, thank you for taking the time to be with us. i know you cannot give us updates on kate's health care for obvious reasons. can you give us a sense, though, how she's doing? >> well, kate is a mother of two and a proud texan who has lived her entire life in texas, who wants to be able to access the health care that she desperately needs in her home community. and despite everything, the ups and downs of today, she remains hopeful and optimistic, and that is what gives me faith in humanity. >> molly, what was it like to watch your client be targeted by ken paxton? >> unfortunately, this isn't the first time i have seen the attorney general of a state personally attack a woman in need of desperate health care. he did it again and again and again and the texas case where we had each of the plaintiffs testify in open court, accuse them of having fertility problems that were their own fault, accuse them of being responsible for what happened to them and for not suing their doctors, doctors who held their hands crying my hands are tied by the state of texas. and so once again while i was not surprised, i was shocked. it is always shocking to see the top attorney for a state in this country treat its citizens with such callus disrerd. >> moy, you said this during today's hearing. quote, only when a woman is about to die may an abortion be allowed. in other words, the medical exception is no exception at all. it is clearly too dangerous for her to be pregnant in texas. talk about what kate's case shows us ability the law more broadly? >> this is really important for people to understand. every time folks talk about their exceptions for reasonable interpretations of the law where patients really need abortions, those patients getting the abortions they're not. ms. cox is not getting the abortion care she needs in texas. and more to the point, the attorney general of her state is saying that he should decide when her life is closest to death, when her life is on the line. he gets to decide, not her doctors. and that should be shocking and alarming to every citizen of this state. >> just to put a fine point on that, molly, in the hearing you reference particularly disgusting passages from the state's filing attempting to undercut just how critical kate's situation is. talk about how far as a country we have sunk after dobbs where women are now being forced to beg a court for health care? >> well, i'm going to be really clear about something. this did not start with dobbs. this is decades long campaign that anti-abortion politicians have been waging in this country. roe v. wade was never enough. there are so many patients in this country who never had access to abortion care under those restrictions. yet now we find our sfblts in truly a dystopian environment, where a patient in the middle of a health emergency is coming to court saying, please, let my doctor save my life, save my fertility. and the state of texas with a resounding voice posting on twitter, sending letters to the hospitals, letters about this position, targeting her personally. i truly don't know what to say. >> molly, i want to play a little bit of kate's experience in her own words. take a listen. >> it's a hard time, you know. even with being hopeful with the decision that came from the hearing this morning, there's -- there's still we're going through the loss of a child. there's no outcome here that i take home my healthy baby girl, you know, so it's hard. just grief. but i think that joy and grief can coexist, and there's moments of joy because i'm really grateful for my wonderful two children that i have and my wonderful family. and it's a moment of sadness, but we really have a wonderful life here in our home state. and so i just try to count my blessings. >> that sound was from nbc "nightly news." just a reminder, molly, that even a win here is still a loss. >> the fact that we filed the lawsuit at all is a huge loss in many ways. and i just want people to put themselves in kate's shoes. do you want your state deciding how you and your family choose to grieve? because that is what is happening. the state of texas is saying we don't care about women's lives, we don't care about families or pregnant people, all we care about is forced birth. even when in ms. cox's situation it's going to mean that she will have to carry to pregnancy a term that may be -- that may result in a stillborn baby or child who will suffer for a few short minutes of her life, and i know that is graphic, but it is real. and people need to understand this is happening every single day. and while ms. cox was able to come to court today, 99% of people in this situation are not. and they are suffering every day at these cruel and inhumane abortion bans, which take away our agency as individuals and harm real families in texas and around thery. >> to molly's point this is happening every day. and yet i want to read you something kate's husband said to "the new york times." he said we knew abortion was illegal in texas but not how limited the exceptions were. we had no idea the scope of that. is it your sense as you travel the country, as you do focus groups that there is a bit of a disconnect where not everyone is fully understanding the extent of these laws? >> absolutely. you know, i've said it before but the exceptions are designed not to work. and this is the brilliant of the senate reproductive rights in molly's case, and thank you to all the plaintiffs in texas fighting this fight and really explaining this to the american public. these exceptions are designed to not be utilized. they're designed not to work. that's why when we're out there talking with issues with voters we're saying a ban is a ban and exceptions don't work. there is an overreliance by some on the exceptions as an argument. again, as an argument in favor of restrictions against abortion providers. to the point that molly was making earlier, however, we know these targeted restrictions particularly in my home state of texas have been enacted for so long that in most cases even pre-dobbs if you had a patient with this crisis they would more likely have to leave the state for care because there's limited options with providers, with restrictions, that regulations that limit the climate for doctors to provide this type of care. so there's a lot of confusion. >> mini, i have a question about that, which is if you have states where some of this has been the reality as you and molly remind me predating daubts, does that change the saliency of the issue as voters go into 2024? >> you know, it's a great question. i think the answer is no. and we know that because even in red states where we've had these tough climates, kentucky, kansas, ohio, we're still winning elections. we have really seen what we called the ability gap on abortion close. unfortunately for the most horrible reason. we have horrific stories of women trying to get access to care and almost dying as a result. and this is what's breaking through the american consciousness and american people and galvanizing a new activist on this issue. >> she didn't have standing to sue over texas' abortion laws because it's unlikely after her experience she'd be able to have children in the future. now in this case they're telling kate her being on the precipice of losing her fertility doesn't qualify as imminent harm. so when does the pro-life happen? >> look, we're seeing this. this is not about life. this is not about science. this is not about doctors, right? you have doctors afraid to treat. this is about power. this is about republicans trying to get power and trying to keep women from accessing health care. and this choice has been -- they have felt that was a winner for them. now republicans have seen the choices. actually most people want choice and they're seeing these horror stories. i would say on the republican side you would think that after losing again and again on abortion but in fact they're doubling down and going after abortion pill. and they've really not tempered their view at all. i think the message is good one that any restriction chills doctors, make them afraid to treat, worried about losing their licenses, and so you have situations like this. and that's why roe was decided in 1973 so broadly. >> i want to bring into the conversation fatima goss graves. during an argument previously lawyers for the state of texas claimed that women who are suing didn'tave standing. quote, asked the assistant attorney general if there was ever a circumstance in which a woman would be able to bring a lawsuit seeking to clarify the law. so then will this case you're talking about right now kate's case finally force texas to clarify when doctors can intervene? >> the real worry is that texas will continue to lean into that idea that everyone else matters except for the actual person who is pregnant. and, you know, i'm so grateful for the work that the center for reproductive rights has done and that in this particular moment we're going to be able to see a situation where there is at least a little bit of relief. but they will not let up on the idea that the only person who matters here and that the pregnant person absolutely does not matter here. i think we're going to continue to hear that and see that. and it is consistent, i think, with the entire approach that justice alito took in his opinion. in his opinion women were almost entirely absent from that opinion. the cost, the health, the economic consequences, the idea that people were actually having to beg judges in three states to get the care they should be able to get in their community is not just an aforethought. they believe it shouldn't be on the table at all. >> well, to yourntbout the women who are actually at the center of this, today a study from the institute found 1 in 5 abortion patients -- 1 in 5 traveled out-of-state to obtain abortion care in the first six months of 2023 compared today 1 in 10 abortion patients during a similar period in 2020. when you talk about someone like kate who is in the midst of a medical emergency, you square those with the number of women who are having to travel out-of-state in order to access care. the question for me becomes how many more kates are there out there? >> the list is endless, and we're not hearing all about them. i think people forget that pregnancy is a medical condition, and it is one that could be dangerous. so there is a number of people who travel is actually not an option. it is high-risk for them to consider leaving their own community. there are other people who maybe they could leave but they don't have the resources, or like kate they're already mothers. the majority of people who seek abortion care, they already have children. so then you're thinking about how to care for your family. and then there's all of the places around the country that are overwhelmed with people traveling into their communities. they have to serve those in their communities, and everyone is fleeing from hostile states. >> mini, the 19th today wrote many are coalescing around 15-week bans. have they given up trying to appeal to a majority of americans so they can go ahead and win this primary? >> well, that assumes they ever tried to appeal to the majority of americans. they have been continually doubling down on their extremist positions. it's remarkable to me because what we saw in virginia just a month ago was a complete repudiation of glenn youngkin of the 15-week ban as a compromise of something that could save the republican party, and he failed miserably, spectacularly. so the fact national republicans think this is even an option for them, you know, is probably the best for our side because it's going to be a losing proposition for them. there's no polling that indicates there's support. there's a real life election in a tough state where they lost on this issue. and quite frankly, americans understand that abortion bans are deeply problematic and terrifying for their communities. so, you know, i think republicans need to give it a shot at trying to put forth policy that americans would support. they are just resistant to doing it. we're not seeing anyplace in the country where that's happened. >> fatima, before i let you go, yesterday the atlantic published a piece how they could bypass the senate and congress entirely to ban bortions. we're watching the stakes play out in realtime in this particular case out of texas. hard to imagine that it could get worse. >> oh, it could get worse. i hope people remember the biden administration is actually challenging some of these bans, too. they have a case in idaho. they have a range of policies using the power that they have, so it could get worse. that is hard for people to take in that this election in this period there's a lot of stake at every level. >> molly duane, mini, fatima, thank you all so much for starting us off on this important story. molly, you're sticking with me. when we return the twice impeached four times indicted ex-president he's back in court today for the trump org civil trial. our own lisa rubin was there, too. she's going to tell us what happened and what the cameras did not catch. new developments as states look to hold fake electors accountable for their part in trying to overturn the 2020 election. why it's omthe beginning. and senate republican turning their backs on crucial aid ukrainians need in its fight against russia, and what they're prioritizing instead. deadline white house continues after a quick break. do not go anywhere. k break. do not go anywhere t now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right frespeech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved, because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. - after military service, you bring a lot back to civilian life. leadership skills. technical ability. and a drive to serve in new ways. syracuse university's d'aniello institute for veterans and military families has empowered more than 200,000 veterans to serve their communities and their careers. from professional certifications, to job training, to help navigating programs and services, we give veterans access to support from anywhere in the world. the power goes out and we still have wifi we give veterans ato do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. just moments ago the ex-president left the courthouse. he'll be back next week, and he will be on the stand testifying in his defense. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin outside the courthouse. lisa, donald trump he was back in court today. he was according to reports pretty pleased with a lot of what we saw. talk to us about what happened. >> he was really pleased with what he saw, alicia, until the end of the court day, and i'll come to that. but today's witness is an nyu accounting professor. and essentially what he testified to is that valuation is a subjective exercise. it's not a science, it's an art. even the definition of value and how to assess what value is differs in accounting standards depending on who the actor is and who's defining the value. so you basically said different actors acting in good faith can take the same assets and get to wildly different numbers in the end. and in fact, he went through deutsche bank's credit reports and explained that's how deutsche bank, for example, did its own diligence and concluded that donald trump's net worth was worth $1.8 billion less than what trump said it was and nonetheless still loaned to him and said he had an exceptionally strong credit profile. why? because as bartov kept intoning, valuation is subjective, and trump was very happy with that. what he wasn't happy with as the end of the day bartov wanted to say when he read trump's own financial statements he didn't see any indicia of fraud. he saw one error in respect to the apartment which is tripled in its square footage, but he said there's though indication of intentional misstatements. and that's where things broke down. the judge was convinced by the attorney general's office that -- the judge was convinced by the attorney general's office that no expert can testify to intent. it's not legally permissible. trump was really peeved about that. and when he went out of the courtroom as we would expect, he lit into judge engoron, elycia. >> let me ask you this expert witness who told trump apparently what it was that donald trump wanted to hear, this was of course a witness who was put on the standby the defense, your sense is it going to move the needle with the one person who actually matters who's judge engoron? >> yeah, i mean, look, for much of the day judge engoron was actually engaged with what he was saying. and it was coming from somebody whose credentials are really un-paralleled in some ways. there's no question that he's an accounting expert and that as both an economic spherest and an accounting expert, he is credentialed. but at the same time the issue is whether it matters, right, that even though valuation may be an art and not a science, there's no room between art and science for fraud. and because bartov doesn't get to opine on the issue of intent and materiality, he kind of talked a little bit about materiality of these errors a little today. because he doesn't get to say much about whether the defendants intended to mislead other people, that's really an issue judge engoron would have to decide based on other testimony. >> what do we expect when trump testifies on monday? >> i think trump is going to try to say that his financial statements were always conducted on the up and up. and to the extent that there were differences from year to year and ones that one could even point to as material, he wasn't responsible for them. that, yes, he did review them from time to time, but he wasn't principally or even secondarily responsible for them, that at all times he was entitled to rely on his accountants and his lawyers, but more fundamentally, i think he's going to use it as an opportunity to talk about the solidity of his assets. >> lisa rubin, as always thank you for being in that courtroom, and thank you for joining us. and in another courtroom in the state of colorado the question of whether donald trump's name will be on the ballot in that state next year remains wide open. the state's seven supreme court justices gave little indication how they will rule following the arguments the court heard yestday in an appeal brought by a group of corado voters. as politico notes several of the court's seven justices all democratic appointees appear to agree at leas with a trial judge's conclusion that the january 6th attack amounted to an insurrection. they sharply questioned the contention from trump's lawyer that the violence didn't last long enough, cover a wide enough area, or involve enough deadly weapons to qualify. in deciding this, colorado supreme court could be the first top state court to officially recognize january 6th as an insurrection. and ruling that trump is disqualified from appearing on the ballot would have broad implications and likely trigger an appeal to the u.s. supreme court. colorado is one of five states where lawsuits have been filed. that includes arizona, michigan, and just yesterday oregon. joining our conversation former assistant u.s. attorney and legal analyst glenn kirschner, plus former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the u.s. department of justice mary mccord. molly is back with us. glenn, talk about the arguments the colorado supreme court heard and the implications of whichever ruling it is they come to. >> yeah, alicia, no disrespect to the state supreme courts wrestling with this challenging issue. ultimately everybody suspects the u.s. supreme court will grab hold of this issue and will be, you know, the last stop on deciding whether section 3 of the 14th amendment disqualifies an insurrectionists from becoming president because it does seem like it is the office of the presidency, and it's one of the offices that an insurrectionist ought not hold after taking an oath to support the constitution and engaging in insurrection. i will say in reading the accounts of the argument, i think one of the least best arguments i heard from trump's lawyers, the former secretary of state of colorado, he actually argued that because it was only three hours, it couldn't be an insurrection. and because it only, quote, targeted a single building, it couldn't be an insurrection. and one of the judges actually came back with, wait, wait, this is really sort of the, quote, poster boy for insurrection because the one building targeted was the very building in which joe biden's win and donald trump's loss was being certified by congress. so much of the arguments made by trump's lawyers kind of fell under the weight of their own frivolity. >> well, it was wild. i will defer to you on the legal piece of it that politically speaking this idea you would have your lawyers and someone as well saying it could have been worse or it wasn't that bad, not much of defense. mary, regarding the other states where you've got these other 14th amendment lawsuits similar in nature against trump they've been filed, politico writes so far no court has declared trump ineligible and few of the cases have advanced beyond initial stages. in minnesota they issued a statement so challengers could bring a new case concerning the general election after the primary. in michigan a state judge dismissed a challenge there, and an appeals court is expected to issue a ruling after december 8th. mary, what is the precedent that would be set if colorado's court were to rule that trump is ineligible due to his actions around january 6th? >> it certainly wouldn't be the first time we've seen section 3 of the first amendment used in a context like this, right? the amendment was passed after the civil war. it was really thought at that time to be directed to those who had engaged in an obvious insurrection against the united states, and it's rarely been used since then and certainly not in a circumstance against a former president. so this would be brand new. some of those other cases, minnesota, for example, and michigan, the decisions relied on state law. because, for example, in minnesota the state law allows the republicans to put whomever they want on the primary ballot, and so that's part of why the minnesota court said maybe you could come back later and make another challenge about the general election, but for the primary election this is a matter of state law. the colorado case is different and is proceeding differently because they really are -- the court is really ruling on that on the basis of, you know, does the 14th amendment section 3 apply here? was it an insurrection? did donald trump inkbaj in that insurrection? was he formerly a federal officer to which the amendment applies? and is the office of the presidency an office? sounds almost ridiculous to say that is the office of the presidency a federal office that is covered snd but those are the issues there. i agree with glenn this case is likely to get to the supreme court but i would say only if a lower court actually precludes him from being on the ballot. i think if all of the lower courts including the colorado supreme court were to actually rule that he does need to be on the ballot, then i see it pretty unlikely that the supreme court would take this up, but we'll see. >> molly, i just want to issue a reminder about time here. it is currently december 7th. that is the reminder to myself. i believe it is january 5th to which jenna griswold, the secretary of state of colorado, who said whatever ruling it in place at that time she'll proceed with her ballots accordingly. less than a month. time is of the essence here and the stakes could not be hire. >> yeah, i mean and i also think that this is -- you know, look either the law matters or it doesn't. either insurrections are bad or they're not, right? we keep seeing trump work the rafts, right, get away with it, get special treatment. the whole idea it was an insurrection because it lasted three hours, that's madness. we know that. we've seen lower criminals in this case, you know, the people who went and stormed the capitol, those people got charged, right? it's just the people up at the top. it's just trump who continually gets sort of special rules. so i do think it's a really important moment. but trump's people will be very upset and it will cause a lot of consternation and drama, and i think it's a complicated decision. >> no one is going anywhere. ahead for us fake electors have been indicted in nevada and held accountable in wisconsin, but there's another state where fake electors should be 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(music ends) it has been a whirlwind week in multiple states across this country for participants in donald trump's so-called fake electors plot in 2020. in wisconsin a group of ten republicans who submitted documents falsely claiming that donald trump won the state, settled a lawsuit against them by withdrawing their statements and affirming joe biden's presidential win. in nevada a grand jury indicted six republicans who falsely submitted certificates to congress. they face felony charges that could potentially lead to prison time. they join at least two other states, georgia and michigan, where charges have already been brought. and all eyes are turning to arizona where according to "the washington post" sources say former trump attorney kenneth chesebro could potentially meet with investigators in the coming days. glenn kirschner is back as well as mary mccord who is counsel in the electors case. may mary, as someone who's party to the wisconsin case how big of a deal is the settlement and the terms of it? >> well, you know, we brought this case on behalf of two of the presidential electors and the voter and taxpayers in wisconsin back in the spring 2022 when there still hadn't been any movement toward engagement in criminal prosecutions and we and the representatives felt there needed to be accountability for these people not the legitimate or duly certified electors in the state because, in fact, the winners of those states wisconsin and several others now, seven states in total the wisconsin electors for donald trump and mike pence were not the duly certified electors. and we thought there needed to be accountability, and so we brought this as a civil case. to resolve it now is i think now a piece of what we're starting to see with guilty pleas in the criminal prosecutions of electors in other states -- michigan, georgia, and now of course we have the new indictment in nevada. and we know that arizona is investigating. these are electors who are now taking responsibility. now they are saying as part of their statement that they at least originally felt like they had been tricked, that they thought they were told by the campaign, the trump campaign as well as the republican party of wisconsin that they needed to need to vote in order to preserve legal options should a court actually overturn the results in wisconsin and declare mr. trump the winner. but as the documents disclosed as part of this settlement reveal many of those electors began to realize as december 14th approached and thereafter that, you know, the court -- the court case that was in wisconsin was decided against them before they met to vote. some of them thought what they were being asked to do was crazy and unofficial and unlikely to succeed. but they still did it anyway, and they did it, they say, because they were being told to do it by the trump campaign. >> glenn, we often talk on the show on our varying definitions and understandings of the word imminent or imminently, a sense of time line that is shaped by whether you are a legal professional or not. so i will ask you as a journalist why are we seeing charges for the so-called fake electors now three years later? >> alicia, maybe except in the violent crime arena rarely is anything done imminently or quickly when it comes to the law being applied particularly in complex cases, white collar cases, cases where there may not be the kind of urgent need to address an acute public safety concern the way we have in violent crime cases. but let me just say kudos to my friend and former colleague for fighting for democracy out in wisconsin. and i do think even though perhaps it has taken too long, there's some good news for democracy here because you have fake electors being held accountable for both their crimes and their transgressions in michigan, in georgia, now in nevada and civilly obviously out in wisconsin. and the fake elector scheme is also part of the federal prosecution of donald trump in washington, d.c. so what does that do, it provides a deterrent, a deterrent to others who might be thinking about trying to put together an election, you know, conspiracy and engage in similar conduct. although it's taken some time, it does look like there are some real consequences, some potentially severe consequences including incarceration if you attempt to interfere in tomorrow's election. >> and so striking that there's both the promise of acknowledging what you have done and the promise to never do it again. glenn kirschner, mary mccord, molly fast, thank you for recommending some time with us. senate republicans accused of playing politics by blocking much needed aid for ukraine's existential fight against russia. d aid for ukraine's existential fight against russia sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta. find savings and support at caplyta.com. this is a clustomer. it happens when marketers group all their customers together. mailchimp uses real-time behavior data so you can personalize email for every customer. turn clustomers into customers, with intuit mailchimp. despite all the warnings and last ditch appeals to senate republicans to stop playing petty politics with a deadly serious foreign aid, senate republicans yesterday voted unanimously to blocked proposed legislation to help ukraine in its wa against russia and israel in its war against hamas, making it unlikely for new funding to be approved by the end of the year. with republicans stubborn in their demands for major immigration policy changes, a small group of senators met today to try to negotiate a deal. that's despite billions in this bill already devoted to border security measures. and after president joe biden's promise to offer republicans, quote, significant compromises on the border. he says they're willing to, quote, literally kneecap ukraine and damage our national security in the process. joining us now former u.s. ambassador to russia, now an msnbc international affairs analyst, michael mcfaul. ambassador mcfaul, set the stakes here if they do not get this done in time. >> oh, i think the stakes are enormous. first and foremost it signals we are not ready to standby our allies and partners when they go to war. second, it means that there could be real military victories for vladimir putin. that is not in america's national security interest. third, if he succeeds in ukraine, it means we will spend way more money than is what is in this bill to enhance the defenses of our nato allies because putin is not stopping in ukraine. fourth, i think it has implications for taiwan. i was in taiwan last summer. i met with all officials there. they are cheering loudly for ukraine to win because they know that if ukraine loses, the probability of them going to war with china goes up. and finally, we believe in a system based on the international rules of the game. we are against annexation. we are against imperialism. if we are not willing to use this kind of money to advance those goals against imperiumism, against annexation, i think that really diminishes america's place in the world more generally. i think the stakes are high here. >> as the rest of the world watches and they see the dysfunction that republicans have made their calling card and then they see the possibility that the united states will not stand with ukraine, will not keep its promise to ukraine, how do we then look in the eyes of the world? >> depends on which world you're talking about. if you're talking about the democratic world, they're lamenting this. for decades we have been the leader of the free world, and that has been good for the free world and good for us. they now worry that they can't rely on us. but if you're in moscow, i watch a lot of russian tv so you don't have to, they love this. they're making fun of us all the time, that we can't get our act together, we can't agree. it's all petty politics. we don't have the conception of a national security interest, and i think that is very dangerous because there's no such thing as a republican national interest or a democrat national interest. we have american national interests, and sometimes we need to understand that and work together. and in my view this is a critical moment not just for ukraine but for our credibility around the world. >> ambassador, i want to cut to the crux of what republicans are trying to do here. in exchange for ukraine aid they want permanent changes -- permanent changes to the american asylum system. they want to restrict legal immigration pathways, they want to increase legal detention of children and family. while they try to tie these two together, that have nothing 20 do with one another, they are making a statement about their vision of a country where we no longer see ourselves in a global contest. >> well, i'm not an expert on the immigration issues, but those are all policy debates we should have. i'm all for that. what i think is not in american national interest so to tie things together half nothing to do with each other. imagine if this were a republican president pushing to aid for ukraine and the democrats said, okay, we'll do that, but before we do that, we have to have, you know, a minimum wage throughout the country at $25. that doesn't make any sense. those things are not related to each other. and i think legislating through linkage -- that's what the republicans are trying to do -- is not in the national interest. by the way, it's not what they claimed they wanted to do several months ago when they said they wanted clean votes on various issues. this is exactly the opposite of what they claimed they wanted just several weeks ago. >> the highest order ambassador mcfall, thank you as always for spending some time with us. we're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back. k hi! need new glasses? 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"the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. thanks alicia. welcome to "the beat." we begin with how donald trump is barrelling towards these authoritarian tactics and promising to push america as far away from democracy into a dictatorship as he can if he wins next year. critics are going after the maga allies not only enabling this, but arguing anyone trying to hold donald trump accountable or protect the

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